Any help with How to play Vs. Joker?

GChanJ

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
5
#1
I struggle a lot against Joker, especially with his counter. Then I feel like Arsene can easily outplay me. Any tips?
 

KenanTheFab

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
20
#2
To copy from another thread:

It depends.

Projectile characters only have to suffer his first form as they can get distance and wittle down the timer on Arsene by doing damage from afar, or you can just avoid him for 30 sec with any character really.

Without Arsene, Joker isn't too much of a threat, his killing power is drastically reduced and his damage output is dependent on combos (Though up-b can do some nasty damage.)

To win against joker, exploit his weaknesses. His counter has *a lot* of endlag, and if you know he will go for it, a grab will do you good. His aerial game is decent to good, Bair and Dair has a ton of knockback, so you don't wanna get hit with it offstage. If joker jumps off stage backwards after you, he is most likely gonna fish for a bair or two, so keep that in mind.

His main ways to setup a combo would be his grabs, dair, maybe nair and d-tilt.

Grabs can be countered by spot dodging or staying on the move for the most part.

Dair has a short-ish range but if it hits it launches you towards him, so DI towards him to boost your knockback and hopefully land just outside his grab range to punish.

Nair is *incredibly* slow when compared to his other moves and doesn't hold too much utility, but can be used for mixups, don't worry about this one too much.

D-Tilt slides Joker on the floor, but unless he hits you near the end of the animation it won't combo, but if it does hit you can expect an U-Tilt or Uair.

TLDR:

His killing power without Arsene is really bad, and his damage output relies on combos, know the combo starters and DI away or into him as needed to not allow him to get it going. His counter is really telegraphed and has a lot of lag.
 

MercuryPenny

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 17, 2017
Messages
278
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MemorialDime
#3
after playing against my friend's joker for about an hour and a half, i have the following to offer:

-joker wants to jump. his grounded options in general are pretty weak and unsafe, and his landing aerials are his best spacing tools on top of having good, consistent setups into grab. anti-air or air-to-air him often enough and he'll have to start going for lower-reward and less safe options like buffered short hop aerials, up smash, etc. just be careful that you don't get too predictable and end up getting grabbed on landing
-once he has arsene, don't respect him too much. going aggressive against him is rewarded since he loses significant chunks of his meter when he gets hit, and his recovery is relatively easy to 2-frame. simultaneously, his aggression becomes better, but he no longer has rebel's guard, still has a pretty exploitable recovery, and loses significant chunks of his meter when getting hit on top of his dramatically increased damage output and kill power. eigaon is strong but can be blocked, traded with, or jumped over. it allows him to cover his recovery a bit better but him overusing it gets really predictable, and if you see it coming you can shield and hit him while he's still in endlag
-go hard for edgeguards, especially when he doesn't have arsene. if you semi-spike him when he's tethering to the ledge i can almost guarantee he's dead by default. even if you don't have a semi-spike, tethers aren't terribly difficult to edgeguard, and if you force him to tether high you can just read it and double jump to cover a higher angle. he's also pretty weak at the ledge even with arsene so if you have basic ledge trapping down you can force him back offstage if you aren't confident in edgeguarding him
-don't bother punishing his smash attacks when he has arsene, i still don't have it in my muscle memory to just respect it lol
-don't get back aired offstage, if you have the resources to contest him or drop incredibly low, go for it

there's likely still a lot i haven't figured out about the mu but that's what i've learned thus far. also i definitely would not recommend trying to outcamp arsene. eigaon is incredibly powerful at counter-camping and he's fast enough that you really can't circlecamp him for 30 seconds
 
Joined
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8,305
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BGenius23
#4
I’m beginning to find myself approaching Joker much the same way I did Cloud in Smash 4: play aggressively when he’s by himself and play passively when he has Arsene. It’s way too easy for them to kill you at ridiculous percents to justify trying to fight them head on.

I’ve also noticed that a lot of Jokers love to dash attack, almost like they can’t think of other ways to get in. Having a character with good out of shield options can make punishing this really easy.
 
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