Anti Air options?

Shack

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ShackShack
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#1
I have trouble shutting down people who like to full hop and drift into me. Do we have any reliable options to counter this outside of parry and maybe challenge them in the air with Bair? Or do we just kind of have to accept it and back dash to avoid the potential aerial?
 

Dimaglio

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#2
If you know someone is gonna jump than you're at a pretty good positional advantage because you have every option still available to you where as your opponent is kinda locked into falling empty, jumping, or falling with a move. I'd personally recommend not jumping in this case but staying to the ground and dashing in to push your positional advantage under them and using uptilt (or maybe upsmash but that's much more committal because of it's endlag). Generally, being under your opponent is good in smash. You'll also take stage from them which is good. I believe his uptilt is also responsibly disjointed so that helps with beating out any falling aerials they might use. Best case they eat a possible combo starter which is sick and worst case they get past your tilt by jumping again (which is good cause they can't do a lot after that) or they airdodge past it, in which case you can punish with a grab. I think all in all it covers most options and gives you good stage control but that's just what I'm thinking rn
 
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SJMistery

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#3
Up Smash is the usual go-to. It's a devastating anti-air that can deal a huge amount of damage and has low enough base knockback to combo it into aerials of your own, and the late hit will usually frame-trap them. The only real downside is that you will want it fresh to close out a stock, so try not to use it at mid percents until you are sure it will get the KO.
Up Tilt is faster and safer on whiff, but has less disjointed range and the hitbox is much harder to land. In Ultimate, they FINNALLY removed the hitbox of the tonge, turning it into Greninja's most disjointed move, even more than the kunai attacks. Thank Arceus.
Substitute and Shadow Sneak are fantastic punish tools for hard reads in general and will leave them in a really good spot for an edgeguard or a juggle, so using them to catch a landing aerial at low/mid percents is absolutely recommended if you are confident enough to commit.
Pivot Grab has a massive range and can work, especially if you want to close out the stock near the ledge, but it's almost as slow as Up Smash.
If you are away from him, a fully charged Water Shuriken is your best bet. They will likely land in time, but it will keep them in shield long enough for you to safely punish with a grab.
 
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Firox

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#4
Up Smash is the usual go-to. It's a devastating anti-air that can deal a huge amount of damage and has low enough base knockback to combo it into aerials of your own, and the late hit will usually frame-trap them. The only real downside is that you will want it fresh to close out a stock, so try not to use it at mid percents until you are sure it will get the KO.
Up Tilt is faster and safer on whiff, but has less disjointed range and the hitbox is much harder to land. In Ultimate, they FINNALLY removed the hitbox of the tonge, turning it into Greninja's most disjointed move, even more than the kunai attacks. Thank Arceus.
Substitute and Shadow Sneak are fantastic punish tools for hard reads in general and will leave them in a really good spot for an edgeguard or a juggle, so using them to catch a landing aerial at low/mid percents is absolutely recommended if you are confident enough to commit.
Pivot Grab has a massive range and can work, especially if you want to close out the stock near the ledge, but it's almost as slow as Up Smash.
If you are away from him, a fully charged Water Shuriken is your best bet. They will likely land in time, but it will keep them in shield long enough for you to safely punish with a grab.
Well said. True on all points. Especially love the "thank Arceus." Nice touch.
 

Shack

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#5
If you know someone is gonna jump than you're at a pretty good positional advantage because you have every option still available to you where as your opponent is kinda locked into falling empty, jumping, or falling with a move. I'd personally recommend not jumping in this case but staying to the ground and dashing in to push your positional advantage under them and using uptilt (or maybe upsmash but that's much more committal because of it's endlag). Generally, being under your opponent is good in smash. You'll also take stage from them which is good. I believe his uptilt is also responsibly disjointed so that helps with beating out any falling aerials they might use. Best case they eat a possible combo starter which is sick and worst case they get past your tilt by jumping again (which is good cause they can't do a lot after that) or they airdodge past it, in which case you can punish with a grab. I think all in all it covers most options and gives you good stage control but that's just what I'm thinking rn
Up Smash is the usual go-to. It's a devastating anti-air that can deal a huge amount of damage and has low enough base knockback to combo it into aerials of your own, and the late hit will usually frame-trap them. The only real downside is that you will want it fresh to close out a stock, so try not to use it at mid percents until you are sure it will get the KO.
Up Tilt is faster and safer on whiff, but has less disjointed range and the hitbox is much harder to land. In Ultimate, they FINNALLY removed the hitbox of the tonge, turning it into Greninja's most disjointed move, even more than the kunai attacks. Thank Arceus.
Substitute and Shadow Sneak are fantastic punish tools for hard reads in general and will leave them in a really good spot for an edgeguard or a juggle, so using them to catch a landing aerial at low/mid percents is absolutely recommended if you are confident enough to commit.
Pivot Grab has a massive range and can work, especially if you want to close out the stock near the ledge, but it's almost as slow as Up Smash.
If you are away from him, a fully charged Water Shuriken is your best bet. They will likely land in time, but it will keep them in shield long enough for you to safely punish with a grab.
Thanks for the write ups. I can work on my timing more, but I feel relying on UTilt or USmash in some matchups is too risky. If I dont time it perfect, I eat a nair/fair/dair because Greninja doesnt really have any long lasting hit boxes. Mainly playing my friend who uses Roy right now. Also I meant more so for when they approach me at an angle, not directly above. Utilt doesnt hit to the side at all, does it? Or youre saying its hitbox is good enough to dash under them with it?

Never thought of trying shadow sneak as an anti air, I can play around with that
 

Firox

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#6
Thanks for the write ups. I can work on my timing more, but I feel relying on UTilt or USmash in some matchups is too risky. If I dont time it perfect, I eat a nair/fair/dair because Greninja doesnt really have any long lasting hit boxes. Mainly playing my friend who uses Roy right now. Also I meant more so for when they approach me at an angle, not directly above. Utilt doesnt hit to the side at all, does it? Or youre saying its hitbox is good enough to dash under them with it?

Never thought of trying shadow sneak as an anti air, I can play around with that
I have to say, forward shadow sneak really does have an insane amount of vertical reach. It can even hit from below some of the lower platforms.
 

SJMistery

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#7
Never thought of trying shadow sneak as an anti air, I can play around with that
The idea is using the teleport to dodge an incoming hitbox, and punish the landing lag. Think of it as a roll with a smash attack built-in. Substitute does a similar job, the difference is Shadow Sneak is a better at countering fast aerials while Substitute is better against lingering hitboxes thanks to his "unique qualities" of not having intangibility on the counter and not slowing down the target having been removed in Ultimate (wich again, thank Arceus, this move REALLY needed that buff).
 
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Mack36

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Sep 5, 2019
Messages
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#8
Up Smash is the usual go-to. It's a devastating anti-air that can deal a huge amount of damage and has low enough base knockback to combo it into aerials of your own, and the late hit will usually frame-trap them. The only real downside is that you will want it fresh to close out a stock, so try not to use it at mid percents until you are sure it will get the KO.
Up Tilt is faster and safer on whiff, but has less disjointed range and the hitbox is much harder to land. In Ultimate, they FINNALLY removed the hitbox of the tonge, turning it into Greninja's most disjointed move, even more than the kunai attacks. Thank Arceus.
Substitute and Shadow Sneak are fantastic punish tools for hard reads in general and will leave them in a really good spot for an edgeguard or a juggle, so using them to catch a landing aerial at low/mid percents is absolutely recommended if you are confident enough to commit.
Pivot Grab has a massive range and can work, especially if you want to close out the stock near the ledge, but it's almost as slow as Up Smash.
If you are away from him, a fully charged Water Shuriken is your best bet. They will likely land in time, but it will keep them in shield long enough for you to safely punish with a grab.
I agree, upsmash almost never combos into an aerial though and it's usually better to just wait for them to fall and punish from there. Good points though!
 

SJMistery

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#9
I agree, upsmash almost never combos into an aerial though and it's usually better to just wait for them to fall and punish from there. Good points though!
I am talking about low percents, around 10-20. The knockback scaling is low enough for a Nair or a falling double jump Uair to connect. At mid percents I mentioned not to use USmash to keep it fresh.
 

Mack36

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#10
I am talking about low percents, around 10-20. The knockback scaling is low enough for a Nair or a falling double jump Uair to connect. At mid percents I mentioned not to use USmash to keep it fresh.
USmash Nair is a thing at low percents? Usually if I hit my dash attack Usmash everybody loves to just air dodge down into my regrab, but that is something to keep in mind thank you.
 

SJMistery

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#12
USmash Nair is a thing at low percents? Usually if I hit my dash attack Usmash everybody loves to just air dodge down into my regrab, but that is something to keep in mind thank you.
On the heavy and fast falling characters (or in medium weights at 0%) you can even go Uthrow to USmash, and follow with Utilt into a second USmash, and THEN go for the Nair/Uair. Although USmash into Utilt is not guaranteed, it's very difficult to dodge if you do it fast, and the rest is a true combo.
 
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