Another Pro Wavedashing Thread (It's a good ones)

[Wyvern]

@ Wyvern

Ok, I see your point. My apologies for jumping the gun a bit.

WOW. I actually got through to someone in a wavedashing thread. This is truly a momentous occasion.

I know that wavedashers like the complexity wavedashing provides an the options it brings about, and I do my best to appreciate that style of play. But whenever these threads come up, the pro-wavedashers think ONLY of how they like wavedashing and call everyone else idiots for not wanting the game to be like that, the anti-wavedashers think ONLY of their level of play and try to find ways to make wavedashing in Melee illegal with ridiculous arguments, but nobody looks at the big picture. The big picture is the one that developers are faced with, and thus the big picture is what drives the creation of Brawl. I just want people to understand that so that these conversations can actually be a meaningful comparison of opinions instead of irrational flamewars that will never be able to determine anything about what the future of the series should or will be.

 

[Zek]

They will be slow with little traction. Tell me how they will space or approach.

It's not like the total physics are flying out the window.

Jesus christ dude. If they buffed all of Luigi's attacks to do 50% damage each, would he be strong without wavedashing? Yes? Then there must be a point between there and where he is now where he would be balanced without wavedashing. Maybe he'll hav ea movement disadvantage, maybe not, but it's absolutely ******** to claim with certainty that he can not be balanced without it. How can you even think that?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

WOW. I actually got through to someone in a wavedashing thread. This is truly a momentous occasion.

I know that wavedashers like the complexity wavedashing provides an the options it brings about, and I do my best to appreciate that style of play. But whenever these threads come up, the pro-wavedashers think ONLY of how they like wavedashing and call everyone else idiots for not wanting the game to be like that, the anti-wavedashers think ONLY of their level of play and try to find ways to make wavedashing in Melee illegal with ridiculous arguments, but nobody looks at the big picture. The big picture is the one that developers are faced with, and thus the big picture is what drives the creation of Brawl. I just want people to understand that so that these conversations can actually be a meaningful comparison of opinions instead of irrational flamewars that will never be able to determine anything about what the future of the series should be.

Wyvern, if I had internets, I'd give you all of them. You sir are the embodiment of win. (Next to Fierce Deity Link) You take the point of view for both sides in a well thought out manner. *applauds*

 

[Ixninjax]

Jesus christ dude. If they buffed all of Luigi's attacks to do 50% damage each, would he be strong without wavedashing? Yes? Then there must be a point between there and where he is now where he would be balanced without wavedashing. Maybe he'll hav ea movement disadvantage, maybe not, but it's absolutely ******** to claim with certainty that he can not be balanced without it. How can you even think that?

actually, at a competitive level luigi would still suck even with those stats you present. Competitive smash is very movement based game, VERY movement based. Not casual smash though. Thats how much luigi sucks without wavedashing. If i play a non wavedashing luigi, i could choose marth and win without even moving my character. There's absolutely no way luigi will penetrate a decent marths range without wavedashing.

 

[NES n00b]

Jesus christ dude. If they buffed all of Luigi's attacks to do 50% damage each, would he be strong without wavedashing? Yes? Then there must be a point between there and where he is now where he would be balanced without wavedashing. Maybe he'll hav ea movement disadvantage, maybe not, but it's absolutely ******** to claim with certainty that he can not be balanced without it. How can you even think that?

No, then it would be annoying matchup of keep away until you knock him off (Fox lasering and running away, falcon doing hit and run, Link throwing stuff at him, etc).

He would have to have some kind of different movement to be balanced. Luigi as he is now with his low traction and speed from Melee would not compete unless he has different movement or has some rediculous stuff like a move that reaches around the whole stage or something. lol

There is a reason that slow characters are usually the lowest in the tiers. It is much easier to not feel guilty of making a speedy character with too powerful of moves for his speed than making a too fast of a character for his speed (slow).

 

[BentoBox]

Near as I could tell from the matches I watched. It's like mgslee said. Ike's down B is counter. His side B is some dashing slash (I think slightly shorter range than Falco's over B... but I only saw it off to the side when I was watching someone else).

Interesting note - Ike was able to counter in the MIDDLE of getting hit. I wasn't sure when I saw it, but I mentioned it to my friend and he confirmed seeing Ike do it as well in other matches (sorry, forgot that part of the convo earlier and since Ike's moves had been posted I didn't bother earlier). Basically, an Ike player was getting hit by Pit's side B (spinning blade dash.... thing) and Ike countered right in the middle of it. I didn't notice enough/seen it enough to know things such as how far it knocked Pit, if it's a set distance, how much damage, etc. It's definately counter, though.

Come to think of it, that's significant given that Ike's a heavy character. Shines a possible positive light on some of the other heavies (maybe they're harder to "stagger" as well). Should've remembered to post that earlier.

His other two B moves we've seen on the website. And yes, his Up special looks exactly like Kirby's, without the ground projectile at the end that Kirby has.

You can and should expect a lot of changes. If Bowser is able to counterattack while under heavy pressure (thus negating the need for fast spacing in a sense), I'd say that's a good step in the right direction. Again, you don't know a thing about how they're balancing the chars. Stop assuming and taking your words for gospel.

 

[NES n00b]

Gospel

lol, rhetoric is fun. We could have rhetoric and linguistic wars if you want.

It would help, but the slow characters will still be at a disadvantage by how smash bros works.

 

[Xenesis]

lol, rhetoric is fun. We could have rhetoric and linguistic wars if you want.

It would help, but the slow characters will still be at a disadvantage by how smash bros works.

Super Armour?

 

[Zek]

No, then it would be annoying matchup of keep away until you knock him off (Fox lasering and running away, falcon doing hit and run, Link throwing stuff at him, etc).

He would have to have some kind of different movement to be balanced. Luigi as he is now with his low traction and speed from Melee would not compete unless he has different movement or has some rediculous stuff like a move that reaches around the whole stage or something. lol

There is a reason that slow characters are usually the lowest in the tiers. It is much easier to not feel guilty of making a speedy character with too powerful of moves for his speed than making a too fast of a character for his speed (slow).

Whatever, the point is there are lots of things they can do to buff Luigi that do not involve wavedashing. Not that I believe for a second you guys' claims of being able to fight an evenly matched Luigi without taking a single scratch just because he's not wavedashing, but that's not important. Whatever you can name that's wrong with the character, there's no reason it can't be fixed this time. Why do you assume he'll move exactly like he does in Melee? Do you think Sakurai and his testers are completely incompetent or what? This game should absolutely be more balanced than Melee since it's not being rushed to release, and the competitive scene has grown exponentially from what it was when Melee was developed.

Brawl is being balanced from the ground up without wavedashing or directional dodges or whatever else they removed or changed. There's absolutely no reason to think they'll just copy/paste everything from Melee.

 

[MeisterNeumann]

what if you Crouched while being hit and didnt move

thats possible lol

 

[Takeshi245]

Wavedashing's gone and now the anti-wavedashings are celebrating its departure while some actually think they'll be one step closer to beating people that are better than them. Little do they realize that they will fail. There's just be new things we'll have to learn and I just hope this game doesn't become shallow. This thread should just die. Everyone, please do not post here after this post.

 

[Prime Time]

the wario vid is kind of convincing

 

[MeisterNeumann]

Wavedashing's gone and now the anti-wavedashings are celebrating its departure while some actually think they'll be one step closer to beating people that are better than them. Little do they realize that they will fail. There's just be new things we'll have to learn and I just hope this game doesn't become shallow. This thread should just die. Everyone, please do not post here after this post.

how the hell do you know its gone?

from the demo?

 

[technomancer]

chill out about wavedashing and focus on learning to play brawl when it comes out.

If it's not Melee 2.0, is that going to be a horribly bad thing?

Also, please read Gimpy's thread, about the money slide.

 

[Jisike]

Why would you gravedig this thread?

 

[Hmaal]

Do you have a video for the Wario (wavedash)?
(Personally, I think that he is charging and attack before he hits the ground and ends up sliding.)

 

[MookieRah]

(Personally, I think that he is charging and attack before he hits the ground and ends up sliding.)

Wavelanding was confirmed at E for All. He is merely wavelanding.

Why would you gravedig this thread?

That is a very very good question. It's also lame that the guy who brought this thread back to life added ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject, merely stating what has been said by pretty much every casual player in the history of the Brawl boards.

 

[Gilgamesh]

 

[HarryTheChin]

I really never used wavedashing during a fight. It was for fun with me.

 

[Hmaal]

Wavelanding was confirmed at E for All. He is merely wavelanding.

That is a very very good question. It's also lame that the guy who brought this thread back to life added ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the subject, merely stating what has been said by pretty much every casual player in the history of the Brawl boards.

True. True. I almost forgot about that thread. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[Replacement100]

people who don't want it in brawl are the people that don't know how to use it.

I admit, that is totally me.
I am still trying to learn to master wavedashing, and I hope it's not in Brawl. This is primarily because I find that it over-complicates things. I understand it's value, and why people use it - and by no means do I think it's cheap or anything - but I just don't understand how anyone could really enjoy doing it.
I do suppose the cool spacing and ability to pull off attacks would be awesome, but... yeah, as said, I'm still trying to learn it, and I'm finding it pretty difficult.

EDIT: BTW - just to fit in with everyone else: "OMG THREAD RESSURECT LOLZ WHYYYYYYY?"

 

[SmashWolf]

I think I can answer most of your points. And remember that this comes from a wavedash user himself.

1. First there's this... I think MOST of us here can agree that this is wavelanding or at least some type of sliding. Physics similar to wavedashing. This is almost a dead give away.

I still wonder why they'd give this a name. You basicly just slide due to air speed and attack position in Brawl. You sure thats worthy of its own name? Wavelanding is done completely differen't in Brawl than in Melee...

2. Then there's the pictures of the air dodging. We've nearly
all seen them. We all know that wavedashing is essentially a air dodge into the ground. Without WDing we'd fall through the stage. Now if there was no wavedashing then Crouch Canceling would be BROKEN. Imagine not moving while crounching if you're hit. Here are a few examples.

No, without wavedash, we'd be forced into a step dodge as soon as we landed, and we wouldn't slide. We can always still shorthop to fast fall to wavedash with attack moves.(Some don't know what the short name of it is.) Don't worry, though. Crouch cancelling blocks most moves that kicks you horizontal, but not vertical.

3. Wavedasing was in Melee and was not taken out. Now even if you don't think this I'm sure you know wavedashing is the PAL version. There's clearly a reason they removed/reduced things in PAL version such as chain throwing but didn't change the wavedash at all.

Because they had to change the air dodge for it to not work in the PAL version. And doing that would remove some of the basic game engine, which they wouldn't do for sure. It was an unremovable glitch.

4. They would have to change the physics engine which (along time ago) they said they wouldn't, this would take longer rather than just leaving it in.

They didn't do anything to the sliding and engine at all when it comes to wavedashing. They just removed the directional air dodge, disallowing you to slide over the ground with help of an air dodge.

5. More over, Nintendo knows that there are thousands of fans that love to wavedash and Nintendo does not want to disappoint them. Seriously what does removing wavedashing even accomplish? Nintendo have watch professional players play Smash and they find the metagame very interesting, including wavedashing. Would they really want to remove something interesting?

We really didn't lose anything with wavedash being gone. It'll force players to do more mindgaming and acrobatic stunts to win the game. Believe me, the removal of wavedash makes n00bs and newbies better, but it certainly doesn't make pros worse. Now you just need to concentrate more on your strategy of fighting instead of your quick fingers.

Name a good reason for NINTENDO to remove wavedashing? If your going to say because it's cheap, please explain how it's cheap.

Hm...how could I call wavedash cheap....well, basicly, its not really that cheap at all. But it does make pro matches boring to watch. You keep seeing them pull of the same stunts over again to win a match. Hopefully this'll bring some variation to the games, and we'll see more acrobatic jumps and counter-attacks. Remember that while wavedash is out, they did make sure air dodge doesn't block your movement while in the air, and you can still attack after it.

Bolded text are my answers.

 

[Psydon]

1. We're already aware that wavelanding is in Brawl, and that it's based on techniques that pull you in a direction; you'd slide in the direction the move takes you (ex. Mario's or Bowser's bairs would make you slide backwards). That's far and away from any kind of wavedash, because not every character has moves suitable for such a function. Not just that, in order to replicate the effect of wavedashing with a waveland you'd have to:

-SH
-FF (and of course, at this point you've already taken more time than it took to do a wavedash in Melee. Hence, byebye wavedashing)
-Do the attack just before you hit the ground and hold the stick in the direction the attack takes you (and this is not the same as wavedashing. If you wanted to try doing the airdodge here, there's a good chance it simply wouldn't work. See below)

Hmmmmmmm...but, don't we already know what happens when you do that? Okay, so maybe we'll have to change the description of the SHFFL a little more:

"On occasion, depending on the attack you will slide in the direction you were heading".

2. Airdodging into the ground doesn't have to create a wavedash. It's not so difficult for the programmers to make characters slide when their attacks pull them across the ground as they land and for them to slide back while crouch cancelling, but to have them, for example, simply hit the ground and stop when they airdodge into it. It is possible to airdodge into the ground in Brawl, as long as you're already heading towards the ground, but that alone removes wavedashing, because it was the act of jumping and then immediately forcing your character back down and into the slide that made the move what it is, and we simply can't do that anymore.

Is there any indisputable footage of a character airdodging into the ground and sliding?

3. No, wavedashing was not in Melee, in any version. Know why? 'Cause it was people just like you and me who created the technique. Nintendo gave us the tools for wavedashing by programming the jump, the controllable airdodge, and the airdodge's physics upon touching the ground; we did the rest. Things are different now.

4. It's pretty evident that Brawl is using a different physics engine than Melee. O_o Seriously, pay attention.

5. Look, you may care about the wavedash, but Nintendo and Sakurai don't. Sora Ltd. probably only heard of it in passing because the Brawl devs are all Smash players. That's the way it's always been. The devs create basic techniques and, depending on the game, a sparse few to a large few advanced techniques, and then the truly great players create the very advanced techniques.

What does removing wavedashing accomplish? Well, considering that up until recently there were quite a lot of "pro" threads on the subject of Brawl being made easier for casuals...

 

[Burning Lava]

Just throwing this out there, in case anyone doesn't know. (Whenever someone mentions Sora, it sounds like they think Sora has something to do with Smash.) Sora is not developing Brawl. Sora is Sakurai's independent development studio. Nintendo didn't hire Sora, they hired Sakurai to head up a team that THEY provided. It is still a mystery as to who exactly that team is. We also know that it isn't Hal, although Hal will get credit for creating the franchise. If anyone remembers the "how this game came to be made" feature on the original DOJO, they would know that it is laid out very clearly. Miyamoto introduced Sakurai to "a team." This team is never mentioned by an official name, nor do we know what "big project" they just finished working on at that time. I have a feeling we're about to find out though, come the end of January anyway.

What does removing wavedashing accomplish? Well, considering that up until recently there were quite a lot of "pro" threads on the subject of Brawl being made easier for casuals...

What? Smash is probably the easiest fighting game to pick up and play ever! Being pro isn't about casually strolling into tournaments and having a good shot at winning. You have to work hard at ANY game to master it enough to be "pro." It's like trying to give casuals a shortcut, when it reality, that can't happen. Really dedicated players will have all the same advantages if the game is made "easier." The only thing that you could do to make it easy for casuals is to remove almost all depth. By depth I mean variables. Take out the special moves, take out what makes each character unique. I don't know, I just don't see the logic in dumbing down the game. (I'm not even talking about whether or not the removal of wavedashing was on purpose or not.)

 

[omiz144]

I thought wavedashing was confirmed to have been removed?

The reason I thought this was that I was under the assumption that air-dodging no longer effects your momentum.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Why did this old *** thread get bumped? And Peach can still wavedash, besides, it was a demo, for all we know everyone can wavedash.

 

[matthewdw94*]

I couldn't care less for wavedashing... I don't think it is what makes the game good like many people claim it to be. I've been able to do it a couple of times but I don't rely on it, and you just stole all of the ideas from the previous wavedashing thread that was made today so I don't think your thread is all that.

thats kinda like saying:" I played smash a couple times, but i couldn't figure out the controls... therefor it sux." dont say its not important if you havent even used it effectivly in a battle.

 

[Coselm]

I doubt wavedashing will be back.

Gimpyfish said it was out in the demo.

I could care less if it's gone.

 

[ron561]

What would you "pros" do without wave dashing?

 

[The Hypnotist]

What would you "pros" do without wave dashing?

Sarcasm? If not... now we have TSHLing (according to the demo at least). Triple Short Hop Lasers! And we still have L-Cancels.

 

[thesage]

What would you "pros" do without wave dashing?

play whatever character is similar to melee's sheik I guess... And why does everyone thing Wd'ing person = pro. It doesn't. It never will with any kind of adv. tech. All the advance techs in this game aren't THAT hard to do (except l-cancel....>.<).

 

[MookieRah]

All the advance techs in this game aren't THAT hard to do (except l-cancel....>.<).

L-canceling is only hard if you are doing absolutely ridiculous CF combos, and even then, that isn't so hard either.

What would you "pros" do without wave dashing?

We would still beat people without it and still beat any casual player.

 

[NES n00b]

L-canceling is only hard if you are doing absolutely ridiculous CF combos, and even then, that isn't so hard either.

We would still beat people without it and still beat any casual player.

I don't know. I couldn't win without my wavedashing.

And l canceling hurts my right index finger. . . . . . .but I do it anyways cause I am a man.

What would scrubs complain about without wavedashing? That is the question I am thinking about.

 

[thesage]

L-canceling is only hard if you are doing absolutely ridiculous CF combos, and even then, that isn't so hard either.

Or crazy djc combos with ness. :3

What would scrubs complain about without wavedashing? That is the question I am thinking about.

C-stick, l-cancelling, using z, and short hopping (I've actually heard the last two... X.X)

 

[Lightning Ice]

I never understood why anyone would want it gone. If you don't like it don't use it, it's not hard to deal with and for most characters it is hardly necessary. If you like it you have more fun with the game and can get better. Wavedashing isn't a huge horror to have been taken out but I for one liked wavedashing a lot and whether it was meant to be in or not it didn't hurt the casuals and make them lose by much more than they normally would against someone who goes to Smashboards and other websites to practice advanced techniques and it added depths to the Melee crazed demons that have been playing the game for 6 years.

 

[Burning Lava]

What would scrubs complain about without wavedashing? That is the question I am thinking about.

Not to fuel the fire but... AMEN BROTHER!!

It's tempting to think that once Brawl comes out, there will be know more scrubs ragging on us for the techniques we use, but they will, mark my words, THEY WILL find more to complain about.

Even when I was a complete n00b, there were scrubs in my circle of friends who would complain... and THAT was before I could L-Cancel or wavedash! The same will be true of Brawl, no matter what moves/techniques we have available. As long as we can do something, ANYTHING that requires a little more skill to do effectively, be it a combo, knowing priorities, or perfecting our spacing, scrubs WILL complain about it.

I think the best way to end this "war," is to treat scrub posts like BOT posts... they're annoying, but just ignore them, and continue your topic discussion with the progressive posters.

Maybe we can have a counseling topic for anyone interesting in up-ing their game. Then all the new people who want to learn, can do so without flames flying everywhere. Eh, it's a nice thought anyway.

I never understood why anyone would want it gone.

Me neither bro, me neither. (Except I do, because I've studied the scrub mind.)

If you don't like it don't use it, it's not hard to deal with and for most characters it is hardly necessary. If you like it you have more fun with the game and can get better. Wavedashing isn't a huge horror to have been taken out but I for one liked wavedashing a lot and whether it was meant to be in or not it didn't hurt the casuals and make them lose by much more than they normally would against someone who goes to Smashboards and other websites to practice advanced techniques and it added depths to the Melee crazed demons that have been playing the game for 6 years.

QFT

 

[Psydon]

I never understood why anyone would want it gone. If you don't like it don't use it, it's not hard to deal with and for most characters it is hardly necessary. If you like it you have more fun with the game and can get better. Wavedashing isn't a huge horror to have been taken out but I for one liked wavedashing a lot and whether it was meant to be in or not it didn't hurt the casuals and make them lose by much more than they normally would against someone who goes to Smashboards and other websites to practice advanced techniques and it added depths to the Melee crazed demons that have been playing the game for 6 years.

1. It's not that anyone necessarily wants it gone. It would appear, however, that the news of its removal is so stunning to some (coughhypnotistcough) that they are desperate to try and revive it in any fashion.

2. It's certainly not a necessary function. A lot of people just overpraise it. It's true, wavedashing can be extremely versatile and useful; it all depends on the style of the player. Its potential uses are vast, which is why some people will go as far as to say:

"Wavedashing is an integral part of Smash gameplay"

And

"Wavedashing is a must-learn technique"

And so on and so forth.

 

[ron561]

Psydon said it right in his first statement.I have no problem with wave dashing,but my problem is seeing about 3 or 4 topics about wave dashing and how stunning it is that it won't be in the game anymore.There suppose to be good players,but they act like they are lost without wave dashing,especially hypnotist.He's a person who belives if u don't wave dash against someone who wave dahses and is good,you cant win.

Thats why i said what will "pros" do without wave dashing.

 

[thesage]

2. It's certainly not a necessary function. A lot of people just overpraise it. It's true, wavedashing can be extremely versatile and useful; it all depends on the style of the player. Its potential uses are vast, which is why some people will go as far as to say:

"Wavedashing is an integral part of Smash gameplay"

And

"Wavedashing is a must-learn technique"

And so on and so forth.

It is. Though you don't need to necessarily spam it in a match, everybody who's good knows how to use (that doesn't mean that everybody that uses it is good though...). I never heard of WD'ing being detrimental to one's game once they learn it.

If there's anything I can compare WD to it's like sidestepping or rolling to the competitive scene. And it's not that hard to do either.... I find doing u-tilts harder T.T and they were meant to be in the game...

Edit: This thread is also old, made around the time of E4all.

 

[Greenpoe]

Not to fuel the fire but... AMEN BROTHER!!

It's tempting to think that once Brawl comes out, there will be know more scrubs ragging on us for the techniques we use, but they will, mark my words, THEY WILL find more to complain about..

I don't think so. Hardly any newbies complains about L cancelling, fast falling, etc. I believe that people (who don't understand competitive Smash) will only complain about exploits (Wavedashing, Sheik's Shino stall, etc.) or doing the same move over and over again.