Another Pro Wavedashing Thread (It's a good ones)

[Red Exodus]

Eh, wavedash was spammed in melee, to say it wasn't relied on in alot of tactics (thus amplifying it's importance) is pretty precarious. I want the characters to be the focus, not mechanics, and I think the devs of brawl feel close to the same. They'll probably keep enough tech in the game to leave a gap between pro and n00b, but just as much a gap will now be formed by how well you know your character. The characters need depth, not the engine. This new focus is why I think the devs didn't consider WD to balance the chars in brawl, and why it's probably not in anymore.

Have you even played melee? You can't learn a tech with one character and just decide "hey, I wanna play with someone else!". Look at Taj, the only reason his Mewtwo is good compared to most is because he knows Mewtwo. You can't just pick up any character and use advanced techniques all willy nilly, try using pivots and WDs with Bowser and see what I mean.

This is why people have mains and instead of randomly counterpicking stages and characters.

 

[NES n00b]

No, I don't use Sheik actually. I am a Marth player and avid user of wavedashing. Sheik is a little *****

But anyway, for true balance all character would have the same stats one way or another. And wavedashing does not accomplish this. Slow characters are still slow in essence and fast character still fast.

Slow character with low traction with wavedash = faster. That is the point.

I would agree if they balanced stats, but they don't at all. Look at Sheik's, Fox's, and Marth's compared to everyone else and say they intended balance. . . . they obviously didn't.

 

[Xenesis]

It's obvious they didn't have time to balance Melee. Compared to the time they're getting with Brawl.

Balance isn't something that can be cooked up overnight.

 

[Red Exodus]

Must be the same reason MKs final smash is a one hit KO while most other FS barely do 50% damage. Balance, you gotta love it.

 

[veil222]

I think a 5 point stat system is in order to be honest. Lets look at sonic, and treat this like an rpg, every character starts out with 25 points (5 points in all stats for a balanced char). I'm gonna make up some catagories that all characters seem to share, though the grid would be alot more elaborate than this. Speed, weight, power, recover, combos. For sonic to be balanced it would look something like this (just guessing here) Speed 10, (most of any char) weight 3 (around pikachu level) power 3 (%dmg per attack knockback and range, around pikachu again) recover 4 (looks a little predictable/punishable) combos 5 (good combo ability, looks like all chars in brawl will be innately better at this). If you use something like that for each char giving them respective strengths weaknesses they would be balanced. Problem with wavedashing is, it adds a separate catagory outside of this based on traction and jump frames. Luigi would look like this: Speed 6, weight, 6 power, 7, recover 3, combo 3. WAVEDASH 9. Luigis total, 34. Lets look at bowser then... Speed, 1, weight 9, power 9, recover 3, combo 3. WAVEDASH 1. 26. This is an attempt at empiricism, and I know it's not terribly accurate but my point is pronounced as to why I think wavedash in it's current melle form is unbalancing... that and some characters (effing marth) started off with 30 points for their base stats which is why he doesn't even need WD.

 

[Wyvern]

Edit: Wyvern, did you look at my posts? and no, Luigi would not equal Bowser non wavedashing. If he was, then he would still be only slightly better. You seem to be arguing for pure stats as balances which would be good if Sakurai gave a ****. He doesn't. You people do not realize how broken Melee would have been with no advance techs. The top tiers would still be top tier with Sheik on top and the gap would have been wide. Character stats and movesets is not good for balance unless you bring in the GG guys to do it. They seem to do it right. Sakurai, he seems to add things that look cool that come from their respective franchises. Like Sonic = fast, Pit = flying kid with bow but it would be cool to give him blades, Kirby = floating thing that is really weak, etc.

Melee without wavedashing wouldn't have been imbalanced BECAUSE wavedashing is missing. Melee without wavedashing would have been imbalanced because Melee was poorly balanced to begin with! Development was rushed, and it never met its potential. I'd like to think that the developers are going to be able to put more effort into it this time.

If wavedashing magically made everything more balanced just by being there, why does it help Fox with various combos but do almost nothing for Bowser, who is considered to be one of the weakest characters?

You're talking about Luigi FROM MELEE and how wavedashing affected him. That Luigi will not be in Brawl. A NEW Luigi, with NEW stats, will be in Brawl. As will be a NEW Bowser, with NEW stats. We are discussing how those NEW stats will be determined. I am telling you how those stats must go up or down depending on how much a character benefits from wavedashing if it returns in Brawl. This is the issue. Not how Melee would have been like without wavedashing.

 

[limitbreak]

Wave Dashing just adds another level of challenge to the game. I dont see any reason to get rid of it. You can be better then someone without wave dashing. So, why get rid of it?

 

[veil222]

The new stats would need to be a chain system like I suggested with minimal outside variables unless those variables are also balanced. To save the devs the work of balancing what wa a glitch in the first place, seems they just took it out. Eliminate variables, make a balanced base, then add balanced variables.... they seems to be smart enough to try that.

 

[Red Exodus]

It's impossible to compare Brawl, we have nothing to go on. Arguments using stats from Brawl would end up being 100% speculation especially since the game isn't even done yet.

 

[Mr_X]

I would agree if they balanced stats, but they don't at all. Look at Sheik's, Fox's, and Marth's compared to everyone else and say they intended balance. . . . they obviously didn't.

And this is where I believe we can agree. I can only hope that better stat balancing, with or without wavedashing, is implemented into this game. The more development time the better.

Good talk.

 

[veil222]

Saying sonic is fast, does moderate damage, with a decent recovery isn't speculation... we've seen that. We've seen alot of what the characters stats look like, it's not some great leap that's being made, we can infer from what we've seen.

 

[NES n00b]

Melee without wavedashing wouldn't have been imbalanced BECAUSE wavedashing is missing. Melee without wavedashing would have been imbalanced because Melee was poorly balanced to begin with! Development was rushed, and it never met its potential. I'd like to think that the developers are going to be able to put more effort into it this time.

If wavedashing magically made everything more balanced just by being there, why does it help Fox with various combos but do almost nothing for Bowser, who is considered to be one of the weakest characters?

You're talking about Luigi FROM MELEE and how wavedashing affected him. That Luigi will not be in Brawl. A NEW Luigi, with NEW stats, will be in Brawl. As will be a NEW Bowser, with NEW stats. We are discussing how those NEW stats will be determined. I am telling you how those stats must go up or down depending on how much a character benefits from wavedashing if it returns in Brawl. This is the issue. Not how Melee would have been like without wavedashing.

Did you see the part where I said it adds variety, depth, makes the game easier to play at the competitive level? Probably not. Bowser uses wavelanding since he DOES need wavedashing. Don't let Gimpy see your post or he will slap you for saying wavedashing is useless for Bowser.

So people with low traction and little speed left in the dust. This is inevetible that such a character will exist. He will not be able to do anything no matter how you change his stats ever. Wavedashing could change these stats by testing which would be easy. Speed = is it more beneficial to approach with wavedashing, Combos = how useful is wavedashing for combos, everything else does not matter since it would be universal for every character. No character can wavedash to Recovery and how much length and how well it can be edgeguarded, Weight, Falling speed, Jump height, hitboxes/range, Power on knockback and damage, and movesets ties in with how it a particular move with wavedash can combo.

Edit: Sonic is not balanced at all unlike what your points imply. He is really fast, his upair is strong like foxs so he has a killing move, has good edgeguarding with his jump height, good recovery. That guy is a beast. I don't know great he is going to be but he is no mid or low tier that is for sure.

2nd Edit: I can say the same thing about jump height. It is a new game so jump heights in Melee have NOTHING to do with the jump heights in Brawl since there will be new stats. Therefore, we should not try to balance it and throw out jumps.

 

[Red Exodus]

@ Viel: The game isn't done yet, we have no idea what will change between now and release. We don't know full movesets, we don't know weight, speed [noobs and AI fighting is insufficient data] and we don't know the mechanics. Right now we know what is on Dojo and what is in the vids, that's not enough info to come to a conclusion.

 

[veil222]

I never said my idea was conclusive, just a suggestion from videos and a hope about balance. It's much more complex that what I said, with many things that, you're right, we have no knowledge of contributing to balancing and character creation. I wasn't saying "this is how it is", just an idea of how to take in all the variables from a character and process them in a way that you could more or less imperically balance them. Then from there you could add or subtract any tech you wanted, as long as it A, worked the same for every char, or B, was balanced against all the other characters. I know it's not done empirically, and there are too many variables to process in such a simple format, I'm suggesting that they've probably expounded on the base idea of balance fromt he ground up in such a way that they can control things metter than with what happened with melee.

 

[thesage]

If a non-wavedashing Luigi performs at equal capacity to a non-wavedashing Bowser (which, ideally, he should, if the developers balance in a non-wavedashing environment), then HOW is a wavedashing Luigi not going to be obviously more powerful that a wavedashing Bowser?

You're assuming that both Bowser and Luigi would keep their old Wavedashes now.

Besides, Bowser isn't a good character to use in WD'ing arguments because he uses WD'ing the least out of all the characters becaise his moves are slow, his WD ins't long enough, moving with up-b is better, and he wavelands way more.

Or do you just care about wavedashing on the professional level more than you care about character balance on a professional level? (I'm not being facetious there, I'm genuinely curious.)

No offence, but balance on a professional level doesn't matter with WD'ing. The internal stats and moves are way more important than a characters WD. IC's would be crap wtihout thier grab game, Ness would be a good character if he had good grab range and a good ground game. The fact that either have good WD's are almost irrelevant. IC's would still be mid tier without wd's, Luigi would still pwn Bowser with WD's, and Marth would be a little more powerful cause it's harder to evade his living projectile-ness without WD.

Of course I want wd in, but then again I want yyg, swd, fc, other fc, and a bunch of other stuff you probably never heard of (none of which will be in). I seriously don't understand why people don't argue about l-cancelling, cuz that really is made to seperate pros from casuals and is all about "mashing buttons".

BTW we have no idea how much damage Sonic can do without seeing the full aspect of his moves and how they combo. Shine does only minimal damage, but it's the best move in the game..

 

[Wyvern]

Did you see the part where I said it adds variety, depth, makes the game easier to play at the competitive level? Probably not. Bowser uses wavelanding since he DOES need wavedashing. Don't let Gimpy see your post or he will slap you for saying wavedashing is useless for Bowser.

So people with low traction and little speed left in the dust. This is inevetible that such a character will exist. He will not be able to do anything no matter how you change his stats ever. Wavedashing could change these stats by testing which would be easy. Speed = is it more beneficial to approach with wavedashing, Combos = how useful is wavedashing for combos, everything else does not matter since it would be universal for every character. No character can wavedash to Recovery and how much length and how well it can be edgeguarded, Weight, Falling speed, Jump height, hitboxes/range, Power on knockback and damage, and movesets ties in with how it a particular move with wavedash can combo.

Edit: Sonic is not balanced at all unlike what your points imply. He is really fast, his upair is strong like foxs so he has a killing move, has good edgeguarding with his jump height, good recovery. That guy is a beast. I don't know great he is going to be but he is no mid or low tier that is for sure.

2nd Edit: I can say the same thing about jump height. It is a new game so jump heights in Melee have NOTHING to do with the jump heights in Brawl since there will be new stats. Therefore, we should not try to balance it and throw out jumps.

The key difference between balancing around wavedashes and balancing around jump height is everybody jumps. Not everbody wavedashes. Having the characters balanced for both wavedashers and non-wavedashers AT THE SAME TIME is the problem, because some characters are very different depending on whether or not you wavedash (my chosen representative habitually being Luigi). I still don't understand how you propose to achieve this.

You say low traction characters suck without wavedashing. Well, they wouldn't suck if you buffed other aspects of their character, which they might do in Brawl. Balancing is all about advantages vs. disadvantages. If a character has poor maneuverability, that means that other attributes (such as power) should be boosted to compensate. That's what SHOULD happen to Luigi, if they balance the game around non-wavedashing the characters. But then, if Luigi gets his maneuverability BACK due to the presence of the wavedash, then he has more power then he's supposed to! He has an advantage in maneuverability AND he still has his power advantage. He is now ahead of the characters who don't get free benefits due to "advanced mechanics".

You're assuming that both Bowser and Luigi would keep their old Wavedashes now.

If they DON'T keep their old wavedashes, then that means the mechanics of wavedashing must not be the same as what it was in melee. That's exactly what I'm trying to prove! Changing wavedashing to make it benefit all characters equally was one of the possible solutions that I suggested (though it may not work in practice). Unless they start assigning characters traction based ENTIRELY on how much they need to wavedash, which would result in some really odd stylistic decisions.

No offence, but balance on a professional level doesn't matter with WD'ing. The internal stats and moves are way more important than a characters WD.

And when the developers DECIDE on those stats, they need to know beforehand whether or not the character is going to be wavedashing! They need to know what kind of maneuverability they're going to have, because maneuverability is an advantage or disadvantage which other stats are based on. For characters like Luigi, this is a very big distinction.

 

[RDK]

It's funny to see the same old arguments around Wavedashing reappear every few days.

The key difference between balancing around wavedashes and balancing around jump height is everybody jumps. Not everbody wavedashes. Having the characters balanced for both wavedashers and non-wavedashers AT THE SAME TIME is the problem, because some characters are very different depending on whether or not you wavedash (my chosen representative habitually being Luigi). I still don't understand how you propose to achieve this.

Is there a reason you don't wavedash? Have you not learned how to do it yet, or do you choose not to do it because you feel obliged to keep a certain "code of honor"? Because if that's so, it's ridiculous.

If the ability to use advanced techs are there, use them. If you're given lemons, make lemonade. It's that simple. You do what you need to win. And no, advanced techs are not glitches.

Let's say I was like you (assuming you choose not to wavedash because you think it's unfair). Let's say I choose not to use the control stick, because I think it gives other people a fair advantage over me. Will NOT using the control stick help me? No. Is it fair for me to want to make it so nobody else can use the control stick either, just because I happen to hold an elitist viewpoint? No.

So please explain why you're so adamant about WDing not being in Brawl.

 

[BentoBox]

Did you even read all of his posts Red...? He's taking a developer's approach.

And until proven otherwise...

WD as we know it is gone.

 

[veil222]

BTW we have no idea how much damage Sonic can do without seeing the full aspect of his moves and how they combo. Shine does only minimal damage, but it's the best move in the game..

Sonic does moderate % dmg with most of his hits, and moderate to good knockback, there's a reason I made combo it's own stat, and I KNOW sonic doesn't have an instant, reflect, combo, edgeguard, air stall all in one move, if he did, it would be obvious and we would have seen it. Damage, visceral, combo, expounding,

Fox has above average (7/10) damage knockback, and 7 is being modest, but shine doesn't have to do with his power stat in my mind, however it's half of why I'd give him a 8/10 combo stat, 9/10 speed, 5/10 recover, 5/10 weight on the system I described, with a 5/10 wavedash. 39 total compared to a 25 proportional average. This is a case where getting rid of WD or leaving it in woulden't do much, because fox's stats are what needs to be adressed with him. Though the fallback example Luigi, he could be balanced by taking WD out. No character coulden't be balanced based on stats if WD was taken out, it's a variable that if they were to even consider, should be considered after it's stripped away, then the characters are balanced, then the variables (engine, physics, techs) are balanced.

 

[NES n00b]

The key difference between balancing around wavedashes and balancing around jump height is everybody jumps. Not everbody wavedashes. Having the characters balanced for both wavedashers and non-wavedashers AT THE SAME TIME is the problem, because some characters are very different depending on whether or not you wavedash (my chosen representative habitually being Luigi). I still don't understand how you propose to achieve this.

You say low traction characters suck without wavedashing. Well, they wouldn't suck if you buffed other aspects of their character, which they might do in Brawl. Balancing is all about advantages vs. disadvantages. If a character has poor maneuverability, that means that other attributes (such as power) should be boosted to compensate. That's what SHOULD happen to Luigi, if they balance the game around non-wavedashing the characters. But then, if Luigi gets his maneuverability BACK due to the presence of the wavedash, then he has more power then he's supposed to! He has an advantage in maneuverability AND he still has his power advantage. He is now ahead of the characters who don't get free benefits due to "advanced mechanics".

. . . .everybody wavedashes. There is Wavedashing for movement, wavedashing for combos, wavedashing for everything else. EVERYONE CAN WAVEDASH. EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you are talking about players who don't wavedash, it is their fault they don't. Plain and simple.

And no, there is always some character with low traction everytime. Look at the other smash games and some of Brawl's vids. And what would you do with Luigi? Would you change it so he doesn't have a big jumping height, does he still have low traction so he can't control where he is going at all, and if not, how would you suppose he would be able to approach and space. I have no idea. I don't even know what to do if you get rid of that stuff. If you do get rid of it, he would have to be more like a Mario clone or have his moveset completely redone.

I don't get what that last paragraph has to do with anything since if we are talking about the Luigi from Melee, his problem isn't power, it is approach options, bad recovery, DIable combos, and spacing. Wavedashing compensates half of that but not well enough. If this was a "new" game where you wouldn't no stats or whatever the hell, then couldn't they just do the balancing thing I put in that post. And to answer another part of your post, no, you can't balance someone with poor traction with something else. They couldn't space or approach; therefore, they can't do anything. That is a slight exageration but they would never be close to the top ever. You don't see any character that uses wavedash as an approach to be the best character do you?

 

[BentoBox]

They're obviously reworking all the characters. I don't see whats the point of this argument.

 

[veil222]

Agreed, no WD it looks like, so character balance will be..... "zomg" character balance.

 

[NES n00b]

Agreed, no WD it looks like, so character balance will be..... "zomg" character balance.

No. . . . . . .there will be no character balance. Mark my words.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

If a character has to rely on a certain technique to make them usable in play, the character is horribly unbalanced in the first place.

 

[RDK]

No. . . . . . .there will be no character balance. Mark my words.

He's right.

Sandbag for God Tier.

A-Button will be banned from tournaments due to brokenness.

Mindgames will be a thing of the past, and will be dismissed as "glitches", and "mad hax".

 

[veil222]

You'll hear "zomgwtf waz tht that jus killded meh!?!" "umm... neutral air?" "WTF!?!?! BANNED!!!"

 

[NES n00b]

If a character has to rely on a certain technique to make them usable in play, the character is horribly unbalanced in the first place.

Exactly, so why make him worse?

 

[red stone]

maybe it might be balanced in casual settings, but in truth, at the top, there will be so many discrepancies that certain characters will inevitably come out on top

 

[veil222]

They aren't just taking the certain tech out, they're re-balancing the characters. Least, that's what makes sense. But no one ever said Mr Sak makes sense.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

If they remove the tech (or techs) (hypothetically) and re-balance the characters from there, I'm fairly certain the characters (while not being perfect) will be much better balanced. IMO.

 

[NES n00b]

maybe it might be balanced in casual settings, but in truth, at the top, there will be so many discrepancies that certain characters will inevitably come out on top

Not even in casual play will it be balanced. It will be much easier for someone to win with Metaknight then with other people apparently and Sonic uses his spins which is hard to dodge at their level. So yeah. . .no balance. lol

 

[Crispy4001]

If a character has to rely on a certain technique to make them usable in play, the character is horribly unbalanced in the first place.

I really hope than plan to speed up Bowser then. From what we've seen in the videos he's only slightly faster than he was in Melee which just won't cut it without the aid of advanced techniques to speed him up.

 

[BentoBox]

No. . . . . . .there will be no character balance. Mark my words.

Exactly, so why make him worse?

How do you KNOW they're making it worse when you have no idea how exactly they've reworked the characters? How do you KNOW luigi's going to be crap without WDing in Brawl? Contrary to melee, they are now taking their time with Brawl's development. Stop thinking this is Melee2.0 FFS.

 

[NES n00b]

How do you KNOW they're making it worse when you have no idea how exactly they've reworked the characters? How do you KNOW luigi's going to be crap without WDing in Brawl? Contrary to melee, they are now taking their time with Brawl's development.

I don't know what characters will suck. I do know that low traction characters that are slow will suck.

And I know this game will be unbalanced because this isn't a game meant for hardcore would be going to arcade people, this is Smash. They will not balance it for one on one they will put cool looking things from there games in.

I guarentee it will be very unbalanced.

Edit: you do know that I answered the post that said "if they have to rely on a technique, they must suck anyways" they being characters.

 

[Wyvern]

It's funny to see the same old arguments around Wavedashing reappear every few days.



Is there a reason you don't wavedash? Have you not learned how to do it yet, or do you choose not to do it because you feel obliged to keep a certain "code of honor"? Because if that's so, it's ridiculous.

If the ability to use advanced techs are there, use them. If you're given lemons, make lemonade. It's that simple. You do what you need to win. And no, advanced techs are not glitches.

Let's say I was like you (assuming you choose not to wavedash because you think it's unfair). Let's say I choose not to use the control stick, because I think it gives other people a fair advantage over me. Will NOT using the control stick help me? No. Is it fair for me to want to make it so nobody else can use the control stick either, just because I happen to hold an elitist viewpoint? No.

So please explain why you're so adamant about WDing not being in Brawl.

You've got me all wrong. I would never call wavedashers "cheap" for implementing abuses of the physics engine into their gameplay. It's there, and people are going to take advantage of it. It's the way of things. I totally understand and accept that for Melee.

There are two main reasons that I'm not a wavedasher. First of all, my mains--the characters I have the most fun playing--all have high traction, and don't benefit much from wavedashing anyway. I've been experimenting a little with it for Link, and his wavedash is so short that even something so simple as wavedashing into an edgehog doesn't seem to be a good idea. The odds of over- or under-shooting it are so bad that I might as well just shorthop onto the edge and be done with it. The amount of work that would come from memorizing the exact timing for wavedashing and the stress using it would put on me outweigh the seemingly marginal benefits I'd get from doing so. If I played Samus, maybe it'd be worth the effort, but for Link and Ganondorf, not so much.

"But why do you consider learning and using wavedashing to be so stressful? I find that it's easy." That's the second reason, which is probably the more important one for the purposes of this discussion. The thing that originally attracted me, as well as many thousands of others, to the Smash series is that it's so intuitive. Whereas other fighting games are all about memorizing button combinations and hammering the timing for them into your head, Smash is all about cleverly combining incredibly simple, easy-to-grasp mechanics into a working combat strategy. You take a very narrow and obvious list of abilities--run, attack, jump, dodge, fall, etc.--and unlock infinite potential using just those few maneuvers. That's the charm of the series. Wavedashing is very much like a Street Fighter-esque multi-button combo maneuver and very much NOT a clever application of jumping and dodging. I'm sure that five-button Street Fighter combos are easy and natural for people who play Street Fighter games, but I don't like Street Fighter. That's why I play Smash instead.

The basic idea of wavedashing isn't what bothers me. If wavedashing had a totally equal effect on all characters, and a hypothetical wavedashing tier list was exactly the same as a hypothetical non-wavedashing tier list (hopefully with the gaps between the tiers as narrow pas possible), then I would not have much of a problem with it. (DON'T TELL ME ABOUT MELEE'S TIER LIST IN RESPONSE TO THIS. I don't care. I'm thinking about what Brawl might look like in the future, not what Melee looks like now.) But wavedashing as it is now does NOT affect all characters equally, and as a result, if the developers take wavedashing into consideration, balancing around wavedashing will result in adjusting non-wavedash mechanics to compensate for the benefits it provides (or fails to provide for some characters). Wavedashing would become NECESSARY for playing the game as it was balanced to be played. Those who loved the original theme of Smash and who don't find the concept of wavedashing appealing would be directly disadvantaged so those who DO wavedash can have their perfect game. I don't think the developers are going to be willing to do that to their target (and majority) audience, and that's how I know that wavedashing won't stay the same as it was in Melee. That doesn't automatically mean it has to disappear completely and all of its effects on the game gone without a trace, but there are going to be changes.

 

[BentoBox]

Did you even read my post? God.

I don't know what characters will suck. I do know that low traction characters that are slow will suck.

No, you don't know crap. What you DO know is that low traction chars in MELEE aren't that great without WDing. But you DON'T know if it'll be the same in Brawl.

BRAWL /= MELEE 2.0

 

[Crispy4001]

I just hope Brawl doesn't play like a fisher price toy. I never got to play melee online after all.

 

[NES n00b]

Did you even read my post? God.



No, you don't know crap. What you DO know is that low traction chars in MELEE aren't that great without WDing. But you DON'T know if it'll be the same in Brawl.

BRAWL /= MELEE 2.0

They will be slow with little traction. Tell me how they will space or approach.

It's not like the total physics are flying out the window.

 

[Plairnkk]

nevermind. i dont want points. XD

 

[RDK]

@ Wyvern

Ok, I see your point. My apologies for jumping the gun a bit.

@ Plairnk

I'm not sure who you're referring to in your post......care to explain?