Another Pro Wavedashing Thread (It's a good ones)

[omniscience]

Look closely, Luigi is sliding on his belly. That cant be a wave dash, if it is, then the character animation has changed from melee. In that case wave dashing was made as an official move in brawl.

 

[Mama]

Look closely, Luigi is sliding on his belly. That cant be a wave dash, if it is, then the character animation has changed from melee. In that case wave dashing was made as an official move in brawl.

Well first off thats Mario in green. Second, he's not sliding on his belly. Its more like a baseball player style slide (like in SM64).
Look closely

I think it might be connected to teching. Teching to the left or right would be welcome in my opinion. Instead of simply teching and staying at the same location just to be comboed.

EDIT : I think it looks a lot like Wave Dashing and because of that I think that Sakurai is trying to make more things similar to the Wavedash. Keep in mind the development team of this game loved playing Melee. And if they had 10,000 matches on their game memory at work then I would certainly not be surprised to see them giving wave dashing its own animation. I don't want them to make it easier or anything. But making techs look like that and some recoveries would be quite nice.

 

[omniscience]

Its not a baseball slide. Hes on his back for like 3 frames. It could be a new way to tech while moving, but it looks like a wave land also.

 

[Proven]

Bumped for new relevancy:

My first post ever on these boards and I use it on a Wavedash thread. *sigh*

First, about the .gif I quoted, I believe that if it's not wavedashing, it's a buggy animation because this is a (assuming for the sake of argument) a thrown together game demo with only half the characters (or less) and half the stages (definitely less) and quite possibly not all of the items either.

If it is wavedashing, then the fix that I was looking for has been implemented; that is, because of how it's needed for the physics system, they gave it it's own animation with enough lag to make it not as useful for fighting.

Wavedashing in my opinion needs to be changed from what it is now. It's necessary, but the problems that arise are because of the way it is now, and it needs to be handled under different and more controlled circumstances.

I don't want to say much more about my opinion of the subject right now simply because going through this thread I found someone who explained this point beautifully, showing that wavedashing has to be changed from the way it is now into something else simply because of the way things ended up from Melee, and people are not understanding this.

But ultimately, the guy is right. Wavedashing needs to be considered now rather than be an accidental combat technique. And I mean accidental in such the fact that it was used for combat, which it wasn't originally meant to do.

The question I want to post next is what exactly makes an "advanced" technique. Why can't a game be deep, with many layers of metagaming, just from what's in the game itself. You feel that it's shallow and you'll eventually get to the top? Well can't you say that's been done now with Melee, finding out and using these "advanced" techniques up to this point?

And if most of these "advanced" techniques in Melee were not in the first Super Smash, does that mean the game was inherently shallow, sucked, and wouldn't be fun to play for many years?

I'm going to go back later to re-quote the guy that I felt had the best response on either side of the fence of this argument, and that's simply because he didn't even take a side, but because he acknowledged that things have to be changed in some way, he was thrown into the anti-wavedashing camp, and his most important points were misunderstood (the line, "I don't understand what you mean about 'Should Luigi be allowed to be a sucky character unless the player learns to wavedash' [paraphrased] was a perfect example of this).

To sum up his point as well as my own, Wavedashing is in. But it WILL NOT be in there the same way as it was in Melee without completely ignoring balance issues. One of three things will happen:

1.) Wavedashing will be tweaked in favor of balance of the characters.

2.) The characters will be tweaked in favor of keeping Wavedashing in place as is.

3.) The characters will be balanced for themselves, Wavedashing will be completely ignored, and possibly create game imbalance that will only matter to the "advanced" technique players, but at the same time it means that the game is the most imbalanced along with tier lists mattering the most only to those who use these "advanced" techniques. (Hmm, sort of how it is now...)

And personally, the third option is completely unacceptable if it's possible to create a game balanced for all, and not just either the "ignorant" or the "advanced" technique players.

The worst part about writing all of this is that when I come back to it at the end of the day and see how people chose to understand it and respond, I'll probably end up crying.

Well boys and girls, Proven has thrown his hat into the smashboards game! (cue dramatic newcomer music)

 

[AlphaZealot]

All this talk of balance is pretty funny. Sure, they have tried to make the game somewhat balanced, but you need to realize balance isn't something they are going after for EVERY character, just look at poor ol' Pichu in melee. I'm sure Brawl will suffer the same problem.

 

[Wyvern]

I think Proven might be talking about me, so I'll step back into this thread for a moment. I'm not going to make another huge writeup because I can tell it'll just get ignored/bashed for not celebrating the status quo, but I am going to restate what is perhaps the most important question in my posts here, because it was completely ignored by everyone last time around.

I am assuming that the developers are going to do everything in there power to balance the characters against one another. So, the time comes to balance Luigi against Fox, such as they each have a roughly equal chance of winning in a match between completely equal players. However, how will they treat Luigi in this competition? We all know that Luigi's performance differs drastically depending on whether or not he wavedashes. So, do they balance a wavedashing Luigi against Fox? In that case, Luigi will still be a blatantly underpowered character for the 95% of players who don't wavedash, which doesn't seem too fair to me. Do they balance a non-wavedashing Luigi against Fox, but then leave wavedashing in the game? Now Luigi is top tier, because his base speed and power alone stand up to the rest of the cast, AND he has crazy wavedashing maneuvers on top of it.

These are the kinds of issues that wavedashing presents to the developers, and the fate of the wavedash will be determined by how they choose to solve these kinds of problems. Ignoring wavedashing could screw over game balance at the top levels. Balancing characters around the current wavedash could screw over game balance at every other play level. Changing the physics of the wavedash such that all characters benefit more-or-less equally from it, adjusting its control method such that it fits fluently with ordinary techniques, or removing it outright are the three options that the developers are going to find most attractive. Leaving the technique exactly the same as it are now is not going to make sense from a development standpoint.

I am not saying this to bash wavedashing, or call it cheap, or anything like that. I am saying this to get you to understand how much of a problem the idea wavedashing is for the development process. It's not just a neat freebie like most of you seem to think.

 

[-Katsuta]

Ah, and just when I was going to come in and say a word or two the last few posts summed up exactly.

While I'm entirely neutral to either side, I also agree that waveanything needs to be balanced.

And that Mario .GIF I just saw I believe is the first evidence of that happening, as it had its own animation and apparent lag. Could it be that waveanything could be instituted as a defence only technique?

I mean, isn't that what you people want? To be able to play mindgames with your opponent which is what I'm hearing from everyone who is pro-waveanything. What if you can't attack/shine or grab during it? Would you outright hate waveanything?

I've also noticed that there is no proof of forced directional airdodging in this game (I've seen all of the footage ever) is directed in the predetermined path of character moving.. So if that were to be the case, wouldn't that mean wave'dashing' would be impossible due to the initial momentum of the jump carry your airdodge up? Everyone would be limited to wavelanding instead as they fall down.

Such interesting observations seem to be logical and very well welcomed to me, and a few other people I know.

I myself use waveanything, but I use it a bit different than everyone else. Using it mostly for defensive or ledgegrabbing and I'm also tired of the character imbalance of Melee.

My friends and I remark on how EVERYONE is good in Smash 64, while in Melee some characters are VASTLY destroyed in that sense.

I just want a sound, no-BS, Smash Bros. that I can enjoy without people frowning at what I'm doing.

Doesn't everyone else?

 

[Taymond]

I don't completely agree with your reasoning, Wyvern. While fighting games in general, smash included, should of course work to keep the various characters on the same page, total balance is not only impossible, not probably not the true desire in a game like Smash. Whatever motivation to balance the characters in Brawl will be the same motivation that existed to balance the characters in Melee, and as we see, despite these efforts, some characters do shine out as "better" or "worse" in the grand scheme. Tiers developed.

The challenge to keep perfectly balanced players will be even greater in Brawl, which hosts a much larger cast than any of the prior games. Frankly, some characters simply WON'T be perfectly balanced. Some characters will be more gimmicky than others. The main focus of character design in these games was to preserve most of the elements of the characters from their previous games, with balance of course, always in mind. But why would developers sacrifice of the characters to meet a trivial and perfect balance?

Brawl simply has too many characters to achieve that perfect balance. They won't be in perfect balance, but the characters will, like melee, be different and unique enough to provide them all with adequate methods of being played well. They'll all be good, no one will outright blow, and there'll still be someone kicking *** with the generally-considered "bad" characters. Tiers will still develop.

I mean, continuing with your example, even a wavedashing Luigi in Melee doesn't get pushed into the upper tiers, with Fox. So where was the balance in your example in Melee? Shouldn't a wavedashing Luigi in Melee be better than Fox if all the characters were designed with complete equality in mind? The level of balance you seem convinced of won't be present, it just isn't feasible with the amount of characters Brawl will have. All of the characters will be good, but some will have an edge over others, based on speed and general maneuverability. Some will still be low tier.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

There might not be perfect balance, that is true. But they can strife for as close to perfect as they can get without having everyone be the same character no?

 

[Gum]

Wavedashing is basically an abuse of the physics engine so they might have mada an "official" way to perform something the same as wavedashing, that would let the pros still use it but would be easier for newbs to learn

My thoughts exactly. The testers for Melee knew WDing was in the game, but they left it in because it added a dynamic element. While Nintendo does have an eye on casual players, they also know that competitive players ae some of the most hardcore fans of smash. My bet is that they will leave WDing in Brawl, but legitimize it which will not only close the gap between casual and competitive smash players, but also keep it a viable tourney standard game.

 

[Wyvern]

I don't completely agree with your reasoning, Wyvern. While fighting games in general, smash included, should of course work to keep the various characters on the same page, total balance is not only impossible, not probably not the true desire in a game like Smash. Whatever motivation to balance the characters in Brawl will be the same motivation that existed to balance the characters in Melee, and as we see, despite these efforts, some characters do shine out as "better" or "worse" in the grand scheme. Tiers developed.

The challenge to keep perfectly balanced players will be even greater in Brawl, which hosts a much larger cast than any of the prior games. Frankly, some characters simply WON'T be perfectly balanced. Some characters will be more gimmicky than others. The main focus of character design in these games was to preserve most of the elements of the characters from their previous games, with balance of course, always in mind. But why would developers sacrifice of the characters to meet a trivial and perfect balance?

Brawl simply has too many characters to achieve that perfect balance. They won't be in perfect balance, but the characters will, like melee, be different and unique enough to provide them all with adequate methods of being played well. They'll all be good, no one will outright blow, and there'll still be someone kicking *** with the generally-considered "bad" characters. Tiers will still develop.

Of course the game won't be perfectly balanced. Does that mean they shouldn't even make an effort? Just because an unknown variable is always going to come up to tilt balance one way or another, that doesn't give the developers any excuse not to balance the best they can around KNOWN variables. Wavedashing is a known variable now. Why would they balance a game (even imperfectly) knowing PERFECTLY WELL that there is something in the game RIGHT NOW which will immediately disrupt that balance? It makes no sense to deliberately undermine your own work like that. Even if such a large cast can never be perfectly equal to one another, the developers are still obligated to try to balance them as best they can, and that entails balancing around every known factor.

I mean, continuing with your example, even a wavedashing Luigi in Melee doesn't get pushed into the upper tiers, with Fox. So where was the balance in your example in Melee? Shouldn't a wavedashing Luigi in Melee be better than Fox if all the characters were designed with complete equality in mind? The level of balance you seem convinced of won't be present, it just isn't feasible with the amount of characters Brawl will have. All of the characters will be good, but some will have an edge over others, based on speed and general maneuverability. Some will still be low tier.

Development on Melee was rushed, so they never had time to perfectly balance it. Do you think they made the game intending for there to be three or four "good" characters and a bunch of fodder for them to beat up? Do you think Sheik was supposed to be the good half of Zelda, and Zelda herself intended only to be used in handicap matches? Do you think they don't want to at least try to fix that for the next game, now that they're taking their time with development? If the possibility of imperfection made an effort not worthwhile, then why make Brawl at all? Something will make it imperfect, so why even try to make it good?

(And the Luigi example had nothing to do with Melee, aside from recognizing how wavedashing worked for him in Melee. It had to do with how they are going to go about hypothetically developing those characters IN BRAWL. I thought that was clear.)

 

[Taymond]

I reread your posts and actually, I do agree with most of what you say. Design has to look into how to handle wavedashing, and I'm sure it was a tough call. I've seen most of the links with claims of wavedashing present, and none of them fully convince me. Whatever the move demonstrated is, it is indeed different from wavedashing we know, and is likely some median compromise acknowledged and designed intentionally this time.

In regards to the possible choices you presented, from a developer's standpoint, I think Nintendo would have to balance the characters based on the likely playstyle of the majority audience, non-wavedashers. The other choice would alienate far too large an audience to be justifiable. But I also think, they'd be too worried about the competitive audience to remove wavedashing entirely. The result, then, as far as I'm concerned, is going to be a thrown-off balance again, unfortunately.

As you presented the dilemma, there simply isn't an easy single answer. Nintendo will have to compromise in some way, the any decision made is going to upset some portion of their audience.

Ahhh.. My other comment was out of place and not well thought out. I.. don't have anything to say.

 

[thesage]

I think I was the one who brought the balancing apsect of WD'ing into the game. I was just trying to say that WD isn't broken so that a good WD instantly makes that character top tier. Look at Mewtwo, he has one of the best Wavedashes in the game, he's still crap. Besides characters use it for different reasons. Fox uses it for combos, Luigi uses it for movement, Jigglypuff uses it to trick opponents into thinking she's faster than she actually is, Kirby uses it to be evasive and sneak in d-tilts. Shiek and Falco hardly use WD and their still broken characters. If the gave each character a random WD then I'm sure that it won't affect balance as much.

The brawl designers won't make WD have invincibily frames and lag because then it would just become a faster roll. Besides, WD'ing does have lag already, it's not like you can do any move you want to instantly. And no IT DOESN'T HAVE INVICIBILITY FRAMES!!!!

If the programmers were honestly trying to balance melee explain to me why they nerfed the old top tiers, made fox the best vertical killer in the game, made peach extremely powerful character with a good recovery, they made pichu, Marth has quicker and more powerful attacks than Roy with better range and a better recover, and they gave Mewtwo extremely laggy, weak, negligible attacks? Look at the hitbox size difference between Shiek and Zelda! Melee was not intended to be balanced.

 

[Wyvern]

You are so fixated on how things worked in Melee that you seem to be completely incapable of thinking about the future. Wavedashing is not a magic button that will automatically balance any set of characters in any situation. The effects it had on Melee's characters were random, because its effects were based on a statistic that did not have much weight in other fields of balance and it was completely unforseen by the developers as a combat tactic. Leaving it in Brawl will not automatically make things more balanced than if it were absent. Also, Melee's balance was poor to begin with due to rushed development, which will probably not be the case in Brawl.

I am going to ask this question AGAIN, because you still haven't directly responded to it, even though I've posed it to you three times now throughout this thread. Wavedashing as a very strong positive effect on Luigi. A wavedashing Luigi performs considerably better than a non-wavedashing Luigi. You've harped on this many times before. Okay. So I am a character designer on the Brawl development team, and I am trying to decide how powerful Luigi's moves and whatnot should be to make him a competitive character in the next game. When I am balancing Luigi against the other characters, how do I treat him? Do I make sure to wavedash everywhere in my playtesting, and make my decision based on that playstyle? If I do that, then the players who don't wavedash (the vast majority of them) will find that Luigi is vastly underpowered, because they are incapable of taking advantage of the aspect of him that is supposed to compensate for other deficiencies he may have. If I DON'T wavedash with him during the playtesting, then I'll make all his moves reasonably powerful to ensure that he can stand up to the rest of the cast. Then, once wavedashing is reintroduced into the system, Luigi suddenly has a much higher potential than any of the other characters, because he has a great moveset and gets this huge extra benefit on top of it. How does a developer respond to this dilemma? What does the developer expect from Luigi when they design him?

Just to make sure you don't totally miss the point again, I reiterate that I am talking about Luigi IN BRAWL. Not Luigi in Melee. Luigi in Brawl will have different abilities and statistics, as will his opponents, compared to Melee. So don't just give me another lecture about how wavedashing just so happens to make up for his underpoweredness in Melee. I do not care about Melee at this point.

 

[thesage]

And my point is that a good WD does not make a character broken. Take Marth for example. He's broken because he has powerful attacks with disjointed hitboxes, a pretty good recovery, has the longest grab range in the game (besides Link and Samus but that's cause they're different), is extremely fast and has excellent combos. He's not broken because he has a good WD. Fox has a decent WD that allows him to infinite combo, but he would still be the best character in the game without it.

What WD does is allow lower tiered characters make up for their lack of good strategies. Compare Sheik with Zelda. Sheik doesn't need to sweetspot her arials as much as Zelda and she's not as slow as Zelda. Zelda uses her WD for spacing and speed. Sheik either already has speed, and doesn't really need that much help spacing her arials. If they compensated for Zelda without factoring WD then they would just have Zelda not need to sweetspot her fair/bair, make her speedy, and give her more useable moves (WTF at uair). Now WD is as helpful to Zelda as it is to Shiek.

The main thing WD'ing is used for is mindgames, regardless of the length of the WD. And it's not only traction that influences DI. There is starting jump velocity, air dodge length, air dodge speed, arial DI, and Traction. Luigi and Ice Climbers are on opposite sides of the traction scale and they both have really long WDs.

If they wanted to "balance" bad characters then they would give them better Wavedashes. It doesn't matter that much though, they're still crap.

This is what I try to say when WD isn't broken and lower tiered characters don't rely on it by accident. The only low tier/character who doesn't rely on WD that much is Bowser because it's too slow, and he still relies on wavelanding.

I think I've posted this several times... except the Zelda Sheik comparison, but I thought that was implyed when I said WD wasn't broken and lower tiers rely more on it to make up for their flaws....

 

[Wyvern]

You are still avoiding the question! I cannot believe how hard it is to get you to make such a simple response.

Okay, let's try it this way. I'll answer the question FOR you, based on what your stance appears to be on the subject, and then you can just tell me if I'm right or not. Okay?

Ahem. "Wavedashing should return in Brawl with identical mechanics to what it was in Melee. When redesigning Luigi's moveset for Brawl, the developers should make their balance decisions under the assumption that Luigi is being played to his full potential, including frequent and proficient use of the wavedash."

Agree/disagree.

 

[Hydde]

Sage... listen to Wyvern ... the guy is leaving you in shame if you havent noticed yet.

I have always supported wavedash.. and ill admit that is because i used it and is a very selfish answer but in my opinion, that is like almost all wavedasher think.

Thr truth behind this is , that even when it was not like a "game breaking technique" it was good for some characters and totally useless for others. Also, it was a random blessing because it all depende on the traction the character had.

This solely reason was enought o take the WD out of the game... because even when all characters cannot be the same.... its unfair for some to have a very useful technique... while characters like bowser... which deeply needed a better WD, wasnt blessed by the "wavedash fairies".

Its sad for us wavedasher... but is the best for mankind.

 

[thesage]

I disagree with you because they shouldn't factor WD'ing into the balance. I'm saying that WD helps worse characters by compensating for something that their moveset, skillset, or stats lack (i.e. speed, range, priority, comboability).

And my point is that a good WD does not make a character broken. Take Marth for example. He's broken because he has powerful attacks with disjointed hitboxes, a pretty good recovery, has the longest grab range in the game (besides Link and Samus but that's cause they're different), is extremely fast and has excellent combos. He's not broken because he has a good WD. Fox has a decent WD that allows him to infinite combo, but he would still be the best character in the game without it.

Like I said before Marth has one of the best Wavedashes in the game. If melee didn't have WD'ing then he'd still be broken. If Bowser had Luigi's WD, guess what? He'd still suck, not as much as before, but he's still bottom tier (and below Ness, mabye still below Kirby...).

What WD does is allow lower tiered characters make up for their lack of good strategies. Compare Sheik with Zelda. Sheik doesn't need to sweetspot her arials as much as Zelda and she's not as slow as Zelda. Zelda uses her WD for spacing and speed. Sheik either already has speed, and doesn't really need that much help spacing her arials. If they compensated for Zelda without factoring WD then they would just have Zelda not need to sweetspot her fair/bair, make her speedy, and give her more useable moves (WTF at uair). Now WD is as helpful to Zelda as it is to Shiek.

This is me taking an example of two chars with similar WD's but on opposite sides of the tier list. Zelda's WD is more helpful to her when she doesn't have as many useful strats as Sheik. Make Zelda as good as Sheik and all of the sudden her WD isn't as helpful as it was anymore. If the game designers made a balanced game, they wouldn't have to worry about a one character being broken because of their good WD. All WD does is compensate characters with bad moves with better alternatives. It gives good characters a few more alternatives in their strategy. That doesn't make the already good characters more broken because they already had more options than the worse characters. A character is far less affected by their WD than how their wavedash is affected by them.

If they wanted to "balance" bad characters then they would give them better Wavedashes. It doesn't matter that much though, they're still crap.

Imagine Bowser with Luigi's WD again. Still trash. Imagine Fox with Luigi's WD, still broken (and it would actually be harder to do shine combos with...). Now imagine IC's with Falcon's WD. Ok yeah now they're slow, but they're still definetely good characters (they would definetely hold their place in the tiers). They still have Desynchs and their broken grabs. Now give IC's Ness' grab range. Now they're insta low tier. Now give Ness Fox's grab range. Now Ness is mid tier at least.

By changing a characters WD, they aren't affected as much as if they change another stat, such as grab range or power. Luigi would be affected if his WD was shorter, but he still would be a viable character.

I think I've posted this several times... except the Zelda Sheik comparison, but I thought that was implyed when I said WD wasn't broken and lower tiers rely more on it to make up for their flaws....

^^^^^^^

I think you're confused because I'm using Melee characters in my arguments. What else can I say though? Meta-Knight is broken because of his long WD?

I don't even understand why people want WD out so much. I will still be able to beat noobs. It will be harder for me to beat pros. Low tier characters won't be able to make up for their defects.

 

[Kryptonite X]

The problem with your argument sage is that you assume all characters are going to play the exact same in way in brawl as in melee. Also, if WD doesn't effect tiers at all, then removing them from the game would make no difference anyways correct?


For the good of the game it's best if wavedashing is removed, and to focus more on how well the developers can balance new and old characters in the game.

 

[NES n00b]

For the good of the game it's best if wavedashing is removed

This is what I don't understand. Why is it the best that wavedashing is removed?

No one gives a real reason. I can say that getting rid of different jump heights can make the game more balanced too but no one would support it.

 

[Xengri]

I'm just going to jump in for a quick question.
Just wondering, are you guys arguing for the sake of arguing or does the recent "evidence" (I use that term loosely, don't know what you guys call evidence) not convince you?

Only reason why I'm asking this is because I want to know if I should expect more Wd threads even after it is taken out of brawl or is it only still going on because some people don't believe yet. Not trying to offend anyone ( I know how touchy WD threads are) but you know, just asking.

 

[Eaode]

This will all go away by the end of tomorrow when Gimpy/EPF/whoever else is going confirms it for us.

People will complain about it no matter what happens, but it should stop in a couple days.

 

[Wyvern]

[Thesage totally not acknowledging my question.]

See this? This is you not answering or acknowledging my question, AGAIN. Does it sound like I am being rhetorical to you? Does it seem like a trick question? I am not getting this.

Stop telling me about the Melee tiers specifically. The characters will all be changed between Melee and Brawl and those tiers won't matter. I am asking you a question about how you, as a conservative pro-wavedash individual, would go about creating Brawl if you were a developer. I am NOT, as you seem to think, proposing that we go back in time and preemptively removing wavedashing from Melee. There is a difference between the two.

Answer the Luigi question. It is a HIGHLY OVERSIMPLIFIED example of the decisions the developers need to make. If a pro-wavedashing individual is incapable of making decisions like that, then the pro-wavedashing stance is completely inviable from a development standpoint and wavedashing has zero chance of returning. I do not want to make such a serious claim if it isn't true.

Explain to me how a developer who wanted wavedashing to stay in the game would respond to my Luigi question. If you cannot, then your argument is wholly impotent. But it's little more than a yes or no question, so it REALLY shouldn't be that hard.

 

[NES n00b]

I'm just going to jump in for a quick question.
Just wondering, are you guys arguing for the sake of arguing or does the recent "evidence" (I use that term loosely, don't know what you guys call evidence) not convince you?

Only reason why I'm asking this is because I want to know if I should expect more Wd debating even after it is taken out of brawl or is it only still going on because some people don't believe yet. Not trying to offend anyone ( I know how touchy WD threads are) but you know, just asking.

I argue because I hate the attitude and reasoning behind wavedash hate.

Most of it seems to be based of ignorance or some attitude that if wavedash is removed that everything in this game will be better somehow. Things like "This game would be more balanced" or "It is better to remove wavedash" (no reasoning given) or "It is a new game so we should remove wavedashing." None of these arguments have any merit.

Edit: Balance with wavedash in mind wouldn't be that hard. Wavedash would help the ones with bad traction in little speed of their own. That is how you balance it. <_<

 

[Mr_X]

Wyvern man, maybe you should let it go? All this probably won't matter come tomorrow ^.^

EDIT: I know I'll regret this...

Although I will say that wavedashing does bring an unforseen, unpredictable element to the game, especially when a developer has to consider EVERYONE that picks it up to play it.

But I guess it can be argued both ways. Generally speaking, people use wavedash to speed up their characters and in the hands of a pro player this can be deadly. However, in the name of "sportsmanship", a pro player shouldn't play as....competitively as they would against someone who is not as proficient in the game.

But that in itself bring up the issue, "Well in the name of "sportsmanship" should a player also remove L-cancelling from his moveset?"

It really probably is a much better design choice to remove wavedahing completely instead of trying to compensate for character differences and, in actuality, hinder the creative process.

 

[veil222]

Sage has been arguing to see himself post, talking in circles and the like. I'm glad WD prolly isn't in, he's right in saying WD doesn't break a character, it just helps. Marth is broken because of stats, mewtwo sucks because of stats, guess why bowser and pichu suck? If wavedashing is in, and all the chars were still in, suck characters would need an awesome wavedash to compensate. Case in point mewtwo, I've seen some toruney mewtwos that only win here and there cause of his great wavedash, without it, he would get 4-5 stocked every time, bowser has really similar stats as mewtwo except better weight and power... why isn't he tourney playable? Crap wavedash. Because of this, I'm glad it's out, so characters can be balance ON THEIR EFFING STATS AND MOVES SPECIFIC TO THEM.... not a set of universal techs.

 

[NES n00b]

Sage has been arguing to see himself post, talking in circles and the like. I'm glad WD prolly isn't in, he's right in saying WD doesn't break a character, it just helps. Marth is broken because of stats, mewtwo sucks because of stats, guess why bowser and pichu suck? If wavedashing is in, and all the chars were still in, suck characters would need an awesome wavedash to compensate. Case in point mewtwo, I've seen some toruney mewtwos that only win here and there cause of his great wavedash, without it, he would get 4-5 stocked every time, bowser has really similar stats as mewtwo except better weight and power... why isn't he tourney playable? Crap wavedash. Because of this, I'm glad it's out, so characters can be balance ON THEIR EFFING STATS AND MOVES SPECIFIC TO THEM.... not a set of universal techs.

LOL, I thought this was serious until the last line good job sir.

I might this think of a way to spread this around like part of my sig. Hmmm. . . I don't know lol. I will think of something.

 

[veil222]

My words are yours if ya want them, I believe in community

 

[Wyvern]

Wyvern man, maybe you should let it go? All this probably won't matter come tomorrow ^.^

I'm not just doing this to prove a point to thesage. I genuinely want to understand the pro-Melee's-wavedash stance. Way too many intelligent people hold that position for it to be as obviously logically inconsistent as it appears to me. By asking questions like this, I expect to figure out what the conservitive wavedashers value in this game, and what they are willing to sacrifice to achieve that. I want to know what it is that makes the possibility of wavedashing being completely unchanged seem rational to them. There may very well be some angle that I'm not seeing, but I can't tell if the opposing side in the debate doesn't even try.

 

[Mr_X]

Well, I've editted my post. But I must say that removing wavedashing is prbably for the best.

 

[NES n00b]

I'm not just doing this to prove a point to thesage. I genuinely want to understand the pro-Melee's-wavedash stance. Way too many intelligent people hold that position for it to be as obviously logically inconsistent as it appears to me. By asking questions like this, I expect to figure out what the conservitive wavedashers value in this game, and what they are willing to sacrifice to achieve that. I want to know what it is that makes the possibility of wavedashing being completely unchanged seem rational to them. There may very well be some angle that I'm not seeing, but I can't tell if the opposing side in the debate doesn't even try.

Wavedashing is a useful tech that is good for everyone in the game and it has many different uses. The stuff it accomplishes makes it easier for everyone to use so unlike popular believe, makes competitive smashing easier. It brings more variety in the game due to what it can be used for and thus allows for more tatics which equals more depth. Also, it gives characters who are slow and have low traction to have a chance to compete with characters that have decent traction and speed.

Getting rid of them to make balance is a rediculous notion since 1. it is an universal tech 2. it is not that big of a tech besides to those slow and little traction characters I was talking about. 3. The notion that how do you balance the use of this arguement can be used for everything including jumping height. Falco's jumping height allowed for him to move fast enough with his SHL and allowed for many combos that characters envy. Is that fair and did the developers intend for that to happen?

Edit: Mr X again, that can be said for everything. The last thing we want is characters to be made of mostly stats and movespecifics since that would make the game probably broken as heck.

 

[thesage]

I'm not just doing this to prove a point to thesage. I genuinely want to understand the pro-Melee's-wavedash stance. Way too many intelligent people hold that position for it to be as obviously logically inconsistent as it appears to me. By asking questions like this, I expect to figure out what the conservitive wavedashers value in this game, and what they are willing to sacrifice to achieve that. I want to know what it is that makes the possibility of wavedashing being completely unchanged seem rational to them. There may very well be some angle that I'm not seeing, but I can't tell if the opposing side in the debate doesn't even try.

You're question is: Should brawl programmers factor in WD'ing when they're balancing characters?

My answer is: No, it doesn't have enough brokeness to become a factor in how good the character is. I tired to explain that in my enitre post.

Will WD'ing be in? Mabye. Will it be changed? Yes.

My post was trying to explain how if characters are changed (like they are in brawl) how much more (or less) they would have to rely on WD'ing. Do you think Luigi would need to rely on his long WD if he was the fastest character in melee?

 

[Salaad]

You're question is: Should brawl programmers factor in WD'ing when they're balancing characters?

My answer is: No, it doesn't have enough brokeness to become a factor in how good the character is. I tired to explain that in my enitre post.

Will WD'ing be in? Mabye. Will it be changed? Yes.

My post was trying to explain how if characters are changed (like they are in brawl) how much more (or less) they would have to rely on WD'ing. Do you think Luigi would need to rely on his long WD if he was the fastest character in melee?

I hope you're god and know everything. Some of the sliding done in trailers in unexplainable, so we'll have to see. I just hope your right. Lol, maybe you have "inside" information, Rofl. xD

 

[Mr_X]

NES n00b, when you say:

Also, it gives characters who are slow and have low traction to have a chance to compete with characters that have decent traction and speed.

So what if both players are equal smash players and know how to wavedash? The character with decent traction and speed has the obvious advantage. He still has more speed. If one player was better/worse than the other and, here it comes, every player played each character equally and without bias, then I could say that keeping wavedashing doesn't matter.

However, it seems that many player migrate to the same four or five characters that, basically, make it easier to win. Wavedashing, of course, would go into this decision. As I said before, or at least I think I did, if a developer was to try and balance Brawl with this reasoning, he would make every character have the same speed/trajectory in order to make it fair for everyone; ultimately damaging the creative process.

 

[Red Exodus]

Characters slide a lot now, I saw a few vids where characters slide past their targets [be it items or otherwise] while running.

I heard WD is out, I don't know if it's true but if the momentum airdodge thing is true then it might be true.

 

[x4FoSho4x]

wavedashing is in. i saw bowser waveland in one of the videos.

 

[Wyvern]

You're question is: Should brawl programmers factor in WD'ing when they're balancing characters?

My answer is: No, it doesn't have enough brokeness to become a factor in how good the character is. I tired to explain that in my enitre post.

Will WD'ing be in? Mabye. Will it be changed? Yes.

My post was trying to explain how if characters are changed (like they are in brawl) how much more (or less) they would have to rely on WD'ing. Do you think Luigi would need to rely on his long WD if he was the fastest character in melee?

If a non-wavedashing Luigi performs at equal capacity to a non-wavedashing Bowser (which, ideally, he should, if the developers balance in a non-wavedashing environment), then HOW is a wavedashing Luigi not going to be obviously more powerful that a wavedashing Bowser? Or do you just care about wavedashing on the professional level more than you care about character balance on a professional level? (I'm not being facetious there, I'm genuinely curious.)

 

[veil222]

Eh, wavedash was spammed in melee, to say it wasn't relied on in alot of tactics (thus amplifying it's importance) is pretty precarious. I want the characters to be the focus, not mechanics, and I think the devs of brawl feel close to the same. They'll probably keep enough tech in the game to leave a gap between pro and n00b, but just as much a gap will now be formed by how well you know your character. The characters need depth, not the engine. This new focus is why I think the devs didn't consider WD to balance the chars in brawl, and why it's probably not in anymore.

 

[NES n00b]

NES n00b, when you say:



So what if both players are equal smash players and know how to wavedash? The character with decent traction and speed has the obvious advantage. He still has more speed. If one player was better/worse than the other and, here it comes, every player played each character equally and without bias, then I could say that keeping wavedashing doesn't matter.

However, it seems that many player migrate to the same four or five characters that, basically, make it easier to win. Wavedashing, of course, would go into this decision. As I said before, or at least I think I did, if a developer was to try and balance Brawl with this reasoning, he would make every character have the same speed/trajectory in order to make it fair for everyone; ultimately damaging the creative process.

So you are saying that you should make the character with superior stats more superior? So you support God Tier characters that have the better stats to be alot better than everyone else because the creators didn't know what they were doing? You must play Sheik no lie. You do not support balance at all? Strange

Wavedashing would be very easy to balance. . . keep it the way it is. It makes up for all the characters with the worst stats (dash dancing is superior to wavedash in movement so a fast character with a good wavedash would use the dash dancing UNLESS for combos). The only character I can think of that would pose problems for is Sonic. He is fast and has little traction with a huge and floaty jump. He could go into fast dashing, into wavelands and wavedashes for short bursts of spped to his spinning like moves that have that "teleport" speed effect making him way too fast for alot of characters. Everything else, I don't see the problem at all.

Edit: Wyvern, did you look at my posts? and no, Luigi would not equal Bowser non wavedashing. If he was, then he would still be only slightly better. You seem to be arguing for pure stats as balances which would be good if Sakurai gave a ****. He doesn't. You people do not realize how broken Melee would have been with no advance techs. The top tiers would still be top tier with Sheik on top and the gap would have been wide. Character stats and movesets is not good for balance unless you bring in the GG guys to do it. They seem to do it right. Sakurai, he seems to add things that look cool that come from their respective franchises. Like Sonic = fast, Pit = flying kid with bow but it would be cool to give him blades, Kirby = floating thing that is really weak, etc.

 

[Mr_X]

No, I don't use Sheik actually. I am a Marth player and avid user of wavedashing. Sheik is a little *****

But anyway, for true balance all character would have the same stats one way or another. And wavedashing does not accomplish this. Slow characters are still slow in essence and fast character still fast.