Another Pro Wavedashing Thread (It's a good ones)

[Jumpinjahosafa]

BTW @ Jumpinhahosafa: You have a 1 out of 100 chance of meeting somebody who Wavedashes if they're onilne. It might even be lower cuz I know most people who go to tourneys will want to play each other more to get better.

Yeah thats why i'm not even worried about wavedashing. I'll come across someone who wave dashes maybe once in a while.. and i'll put up a **** good fight either way.

 

[thesage]

Yeah thats why i'm not even worried about wavedashing. I'll come across someone who wave dashes maybe once in a while.. and i'll put up a **** good fight either way.

I wish more people had an attitude like you...

 

[Bloshi]

Okay so sliding is in, and airdodging is in, so wavedashing is inevitable right? WRONG! We don't know if you can airdodge in any direction yet. Who knows, they may have fixed it so you can only airdodge in place! (which would also explain why they gave Yoshi some help with his jump, because they knew airdodging was his third jump.)

I can easily see landing and sliding a bit still existing in the way shown with Wario in the first post. However, I don't see being able to slide around while remaining (apparently) grounded as something the developers would feel the need to keep in.

 

[Wight]

if not they might have implemented a sliding feature. I support this idea with the increasing number of levels with inclining surfaces. ideas?

 

[Wyvern]

You're whole balancing arguement is flawed when your realize that the majority of higher tiered characters don't rely on WD'ing as much as other chars. Fox would still **** Link without wd *cough* drillshine *cough*. Take it out and Mewtwo becomes more garbage, Luigi sucks, IC's don't have combos, and people who don't have good range cannot fake out. Sheik's WD sucks and she's still broken. People need to realize that a good WD doesn't make a character broken. Look at Mewtwo, Ness, and G&W. As it is right now, it helps to balance the game even more.

Will it be in Brawl? Yes (look at l-cancelling). Will it be changed? Probably.

Could explain how it ruins the series? (but if they embrace it as it is now, they throw away the core design philosophy of the series and alienate the larger portion of their audience.) Considering the large majority of their audience doesn't know about it and I don't even know what to say about the philosophy part. It's a video game >.>

I am aware that wavedashing is far from the number one balance issue affecting the game right now. But that doesn't mean that it can just be swept under the rug and ignored. Obviously it has a significant affect on the game (people wouldn't talk so much about it otherwise) and it doesn't affect all characters equally. Therefore if left unaccounted for, all other things being equal, it creates an imbalance. The fact that it's less of an imbalance than the current speed-to-power ratio doesn't mean that it doesn't matter...in fact, it will probably only become more significant as those other issues are resolved.

I am aware that it benefits some low tier characters. It also fails completely to benefit other low tier characters. That's because it is RANDOM, which is the entire problem. The developers didn't decide who would benefit from it because they didn't know about it. The fact that Luigi is so "low-tier" without wavedashing is a problem in and of itself, and it's something that the developers should be working to resolve. The fact that he's playable if players break the system hard enough should not be a satisfactory solution for a dutiful designer.

And in response to high-tier characters not using it that often: I'm pretty sure that there's a lot more to wavedashing then what percentage of your total movement it makes up. What's more important is how it compliments a character's moveset. The most blatantly obvious example is waveshining, which can cause really nasty zero-to-death combos under certain conditions. Wavedashing does not grant Link an analogous combo, no matter how good you are at wavedashing or how well you know his moves. I know that the mechanics of the reflector itself are just as important as the mechanics of the wavedash in making waveshining broken, but it's an example of different characters benefitting unequally from the presence of wavedashing. It's an important thing for developers to think about.

And in regards to design philosophy: the main things that makes Super Smash Bros. different from every other fighting game--the main reason for its existance--is its simplicity. There's basic movement, easy-to-grasp methods of blocking and dodging, and an incredibly simple list of attacks. Getting good at the game is a matter of getting better at combining those things. My favorite example is SHFFLing. Everyone knows how to jump, everyone knows how to do an aerial attack, everyone knows how to fast-fall, and though learning the right timing for L-cancelling takes practice, it's one button press that serves only to augment the technique. Skilled stringing together of basic game mechanics. And the real beauty of it is that even if the developers didn't foresee it being as significant as it is, it's inherently balanced based on its components. As long as aerial attacks are balanced against each other and their own lag, SHFFLing balances itself because its nothing more than skilled application of those fundamental mechanics.

Wavedashing is completely different. Press the jump key, but before you jump, airdodge diagonally into the ground. The result is that the character slides horizontally. It unlocks a completely different technique which has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the buttons you press to do it. If you try to SHFFL someone and miss the L cancel, the character still does basically the same thing, it just adds some lag and prevents you from comboing it as well. A botched wavedash is a jump and an airdodge, which isn't even close to the intended sliding action. My point is that it's counterintuitive, it requires almost frame-perfect timing to do (not to do it EFFECTIVELY, mind you...to even see the technique occur on-screen), and it does not build off of basic techniques or even its own components. Stuff like that isn't what the idea of Smash Bros. is based on.

If they had put wavedashing in the instruction manuals, people would have thought they were insane.

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Edit for responses I missed while typing:

I'd like to know how Wavedashing is going to ruin the game when most people don't even know about it. Doesn't make sense.

This is something of a fallacy when applied to Brawl. If a game was well-balanced without wavedashing, then yeah, people who didn't use it would be fine (assuming they never learned about it or played against anyone who did, but that's another matter). But now the developers know about it, and if they leave it as-is, they need to think about it when they balance the characters. Therefore people who play without wavedashing will be playing an imbalanced game. It wouldn't single-handedly ruin the game or anything, but it's a valid concern and I can guarantee you that it's something that the developers were considering when they decided how they were going to go about making this game.

I'm saying WD'ing makes chars more equal cause the lower tiered chars are the ones who rely much more on WD'ing than higher tiered chars. I go to tourneys and play Ness, Peach, and Jiggs. Trust me I know (I still WD with Peach, but not with Jiggs).

You are completely missing the point. What determines the distance you get out of wavedashing? Traction. Now think about this. How much of an affect does traction have on the game BESIDES through wavedashing? Not much. It's a stylistic addition to a character rather than an advantage or disadvantage, like speed or power would be.

So now people who just so happen to have low traction, by SHEER COINCIDENCE, gain a lot of benefit out of wavedashing. What if Bowser had just so happened to have low traction? He would have played completely differently. But as it is he gets zero benefit from wavedashing, when he's desperate for every advantage he can get. What if Fox had just so happened to have the Ice Climbers' traction? What would the tier list have looked like then? It easily could have happened. It's just a coincidence that it didn't.

Wavedashing does not automatically help low-tier characters because they are low-tier. It helps some low-tier characters and leaves others in the dust completely arbitrarily. It helps some high-tier characters and not others. It didn't have a balancing effect on the game, it had a RANDOM effect on the game. The developers aren't just going to leave it that way and hope things works out this time around. They can remove it (screwing over the pros), they can control it (screwing over the majority), or they can change it (evolving the game for both groups).

 

[thesage]

I don't understand how you see L-cancelling part of the "philosophy of smash" while WD isn't. I don't think either fits in your definition. No offence or anything but my philosophy of smash is "play your best and have fun doing it."

Yes the WD is way more helpful to low tiers than to high tiers and would make the gap between them even larger if taken away let me make a list:

Fox: Loses waveshine, but he still has drillshine and is still broken without it
Falco: loses some laser mindgames
Sheik: loses some spacing manuverablilty
Marth: looses some manuverability but it's now easier to hit people
Peach: looses some speed
Capt. Falcon: looses some spacing manuverability
IC's: become very slow, looses some desynchs and combos
Samus: Looses a major part of her defenisvie game, looses ground mobility, projectiles are somewhat less effective
Doc: looses speed, pill mindgames, and combos
Jiggs: Not greatly affected, looses the illusion of speed, but she's arial based so she's the same basically
Mario: Looses lots of combos, speed, gets even more ***** by Marth
DK: has no defensive oppurtunities
Ganondorf: looses spacing mindgames (w/ na & f-tilt) not as greatly affected as oithers
Luigi: looses shawbd, combos, speed, ground game, arial game (becomes total garbage and now actually deserves to be low tier)
Link: Looses spacing, not really greatly affected
Pikachu: looses spacing opportunities with f-smash and u-smash
Zelda: looses spacing for fair and bair (more important that it seems for her)
Y-link: looses some mobility with projectiles, speed, and combos
Yoshi: looses speed, defensive game
G&W: has no defensive game at all, slow movement
Ness: looses his combos, movement, pk fire mindgames, the ability to grab
Kirby: looses approaches, mobility
Bowser: Wavelanding helps his mobility in the air, but he's notas greatly affected as others, mabye helped
Pichu: looses evasion, spacing
Mewtwo: isn't a character anymore.


Please try shieldgrabbing with Luigi and then tell me traction doesn't matter.

 

[Wyvern]

I don't understand how you see L-cancelling part of the "philosophy of smash" while WD isn't. I don't think either fits in your definition. No offence or anything but my philosophy of smash is "play your best and have fun doing it."

I guess L-cancelling is a little odd, but I don't see it as being as bizarre as wavedashing. It still kind of fits in with the primary purpose of the L-button, in that if you're in a period of vulnerability (landing lag) and want to protect yourself, you want to hit L, which minimizes lag and closes up your defense. And regardless, it's one button that modifies an attack rather than a combination of buttons that creates an entirely different ability. And, perhaps most importantly, L-cancelling is something you can learn as you play. There's really no reason to not try to do it, and if you miss them sometimes, then oh well, you keep playing and get it right eventually. Conversely, with wavedashing, due to its unnatural nature, the punishment for screwing it up is so bad that you're better off just not trying it at all rather than learning as you go along. Instead, it requires hours of independent practice and memorization, much like the multi-button combos in other fighting games...the games that Smash is supposed to differentiate itself from.

And when I say "design philosophy", I'm not talking about the philosophical idea of what playing a game means or anything. I'm talking about what the developers intended when they were creating a game. They don't just throw together a bunch of random ideas and see what happens...developers have a specific direction in mind. With Smash, the design idea was to create a fighting game that avoided the press-this-button-combination-with-precision approach of other games in the genre. To then turn around and force players to learn how to wavedash to play the game as it was balanced to be played doesn't really seem fair.

Yes the WD is way more helpful to low tiers than to high tiers and would make the gap between them even larger if taken away let me make a list:

[and then there is a list]

Oh, come on. If Fox only used wavedashing for waveshining, I sincerely doubt people would consider the technique to be so important. And the fact that Fox has other things making him broken is a separate issue.

And why do you think that it's okay for Luigi to suck unless you trick the game's programming? Why should you HAVE to wavedash to be able to play him? When it comes time to balance Luigi against the upper-tiers, how are they going to do it? Are they going to balance a wavedashing Luigi against Sheik? Then Luigi will still be useless to the 95% of players who don't wavedash. Do they balance a non-wavedashing Luigi against Sheik but then leave wavedashing in the game? Then once Luigi DOES start wavedashing, he's overpowered. If they don't find some way to convert wavedashing into something that fits in with the rest of the game's fundamental abilities, the only way to make everyone balanced is to have a non-wavedashing Luigi balanced against Sheik and then remove wavedashing entirely, which doesn't really help anybody. That's why I'm trying to figure out a compromise.

Please try shieldgrabbing with Luigi and then tell me traction doesn't matter.

Okay, I guess I didn't think of that. My mains are generally Link (who has easymode shield-grabbing with the Hookshot) and Ganondorf (who has high traction and with whom I generally have an all-offense approach anyway), so it's one issue that I'm not too familiar with. Still, shield-grab ability vs. wavedashing length doesn't really have the same sort of dichotomy as, say, power vs. speed.

 

[Lant]

Wavedashing really doesn't give you that big of an advantage imo. In online play I think people seem to forget that however good the conection, there will be latency issues (look at DOA4/any other online fighter) So lots of the small intricate movements that the 'pros' use won't make a huge difference.. online.

I personally would like wavedashing, as well as all the other 'advanced techs' to stay, as I think they add depth to the game, if they're not in, Oh well. It's still a great game. Who knows if wavedashing's in or not, there's very good arguements in this thread, my first thought of Wario's 'wavelanding' was that he just slid down the sloped ground tbh ¬_¬

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

characters might be able to slide but wavedashing will proably be taken out because
A) Some chacters had so much traction they were unable to do it leading to balance issues
B) Despite what you say it is still a glitch in the game and with the updated physics it wont appear by accident again.

 

[thesage]

The power vs. speed thing still doesn't work when you consider that pikachu and fox have the strongest u-smashes in the game, and Mewtwo (without WD'ing) is hella slow and weak as crap. The game designers were not creating this game with a strong sense of balance in mind, though it's true that this game is more balanced than the average fighter.

No offence or anything, but your explanation for l-canceling fitting in the game is kinda lame. Especially when you consider that it was in smash64 and that it can be done with the Z button. It was changed from smash 64 from making chars having no lag to have chars half the lag the receive from arials.

The punishment for missing a l-cancel is way larger than missing a WD. If you don't l-cancel you can get shieldgrabbed, or it makes it impossibleto do certain combos. If you mess up a wd you eitherairdodge or jump out of the way and you're DI'ing downwards. Besides once you've got it down, WD'ing is as hard as jumping. It's not hard to learn WD'ing. In the time it took you to write your posts, you could've learned it.

*And why do you think that it's okay for Luigi to suck unless you trick the game's programming?* Please explain that sentence. I seriously don't understand it. Luigi improves with WD'ing.

Btw, WD'ing was discovered by the game programmers. They programed when you hit the floor with an airdodge for you to slide. The even labeled it as superlanddash or something of that nature. I remember recognizing it back when I was a noob. I don't really want to talk about it's categorization but it was put in there by the programmers. What do you think would happen if you hit the ground while airdodging? Land, but you're moving still from the force of your airdodge. Three factors influence WD'ing, Traction of a character (Luig and Ice Climbers are on the opposite sides of the traction scale but both still have long Wavedashes), the speed of your jump, and the length of your airdodge. That's how WD'ing works.

I made the list to show you the major reasons why a character uses WD. Yes fox uses WD for other things, but it's really mostly for shine combos. If you know why WD is used so much why don't you use it? If it wasn't a part of the game then it wouldn't be there.

 

[Padô]

DO YOU GUYS ReALLY THINK LUIGI'S WAVEDASH IS A NORMAL MOVEMENT IN A GAME?

Btw, it's a glitch/gamephysics abuse and that's a fact!

Another thing, The Airdodge is supossed to have a lag if directioned to the floor (touch the floor), to cut out the WD, OR, AirDodge is no more diretionable and END OF WD, would be beautiful... if Cartman Replied this topic it would be like that


1 - Airdodge not directionable
2 - No Wd
3- ???
4- PROFIT!!!

 

[Hydde]

I am aware that wavedashing is far from the number one balance issue affecting the game right now. But that doesn't mean that it can just be swept under the rug and ignored. Obviously it has a significant affect on the game (people wouldn't talk so much about it otherwise) and it doesn't affect all characters equally. Therefore if left unaccounted for, all other things being equal, it creates an imbalance. The fact that it's less of an imbalance than the current speed-to-power ratio doesn't mean that it doesn't matter...in fact, it will probably only become more significant as those other issues are resolved.

I am aware that it benefits some low tier characters. It also fails completely to benefit other low tier characters. That's because it is RANDOM, which is the entire problem. The developers didn't decide who would benefit from it because they didn't know about it. The fact that Luigi is so "low-tier" without wavedashing is a problem in and of itself, and it's something that the developers should be working to resolve. The fact that he's playable if players break the system hard enough should not be a satisfactory solution for a dutiful designer.

And in response to high-tier characters not using it that often: I'm pretty sure that there's a lot more to wavedashing then what percentage of your total movement it makes up. What's more important is how it compliments a character's moveset. The most blatantly obvious example is waveshining, which can cause really nasty zero-to-death combos under certain conditions. Wavedashing does not grant Link an analogous combo, no matter how good you are at wavedashing or how well you know his moves. I know that the mechanics of the reflector itself are just as important as the mechanics of the wavedash in making waveshining broken, but it's an example of different characters benefitting unequally from the presence of wavedashing. It's an important thing for developers to think about.

And in regards to design philosophy: the main things that makes Super Smash Bros. different from every other fighting game--the main reason for its existance--is its simplicity. There's basic movement, easy-to-grasp methods of blocking and dodging, and an incredibly simple list of attacks. Getting good at the game is a matter of getting better at combining those things. My favorite example is SHFFLing. Everyone knows how to jump, everyone knows how to do an aerial attack, everyone knows how to fast-fall, and though learning the right timing for L-cancelling takes practice, it's one button press that serves only to augment the technique. Skilled stringing together of basic game mechanics. And the real beauty of it is that even if the developers didn't foresee it being as significant as it is, it's inherently balanced based on its components. As long as aerial attacks are balanced against each other and their own lag, SHFFLing balances itself because its nothing more than skilled application of those fundamental mechanics.

Wavedashing is completely different. Press the jump key, but before you jump, airdodge diagonally into the ground. The result is that the character slides horizontally. It unlocks a completely different technique which has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the buttons you press to do it. If you try to SHFFL someone and miss the L cancel, the character still does basically the same thing, it just adds some lag and prevents you from comboing it as well. A botched wavedash is a jump and an airdodge, which isn't even close to the intended sliding action. My point is that it's counterintuitive, it requires almost frame-perfect timing to do (not to do it EFFECTIVELY, mind you...to even see the technique occur on-screen), and it does not build off of basic techniques or even its own components. Stuff like that isn't what the idea of Smash Bros. is based on.

If they had put wavedashing in the instruction manuals, people would have thought they were insane.

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Edit for responses I missed while typing:



This is something of a fallacy when applied to Brawl. If a game was well-balanced without wavedashing, then yeah, people who didn't use it would be fine (assuming they never learned about it or played against anyone who did, but that's another matter). But now the developers know about it, and if they leave it as-is, they need to think about it when they balance the characters. Therefore people who play without wavedashing will be playing an imbalanced game. It wouldn't single-handedly ruin the game or anything, but it's a valid concern and I can guarantee you that it's something that the developers were considering when they decided how they were going to go about making this game.



You are completely missing the point. What determines the distance you get out of wavedashing? Traction. Now think about this. How much of an affect does traction have on the game BESIDES through wavedashing? Not much. It's a stylistic addition to a character rather than an advantage or disadvantage, like speed or power would be.

So now people who just so happen to have low traction, by SHEER COINCIDENCE, gain a lot of benefit out of wavedashing. What if Bowser had just so happened to have low traction? He would have played completely differently. But as it is he gets zero benefit from wavedashing, when he's desperate for every advantage he can get. What if Fox had just so happened to have the Ice Climbers' traction? What would the tier list have looked like then? It easily could have happened. It's just a coincidence that it didn't.

Wavedashing does not automatically help low-tier characters because they are low-tier. It helps some low-tier characters and leaves others in the dust completely arbitrarily. It helps some high-tier characters and not others. It didn't have a balancing effect on the game, it had a RANDOM effect on the game. The developers aren't just going to leave it that way and hope things works out this time around. They can remove it (screwing over the pros), they can control it (screwing over the majority), or they can change it (evolving the game for both groups).

QFT.

First of all, i want topint that im a marth user and my game relly A LOT on WD. I have to admit that without it i simply cannt play properly. I would be mad if it is taken out because that is just part of my play.

But...

What this guy said about how it benefits random players is true. I simply love WD, but there are players that just cant WD and suffer a disadvantage. Is different of L cancelling which is the same for everyone.

I really dont know how the developers can solve this thing. IMO the best idea would be to make WD an standard move for eevryone,... but to do this, everyone should have the same traction and that would be wrong.

If only there could be a way to make to create a code which lets the player have their own traction but make the traction different when they land with an air dodge... then the wavedash would be fair for everyone.

 

[thesage]

He said it benefited random characters actually, which in a way is true. I was saying WD isn't broken because lower tiered characters rely on WD'ing way more than higher tiered chars. The only mid-bottom tier chars that don't rely on WD is Jigglypuff and Bowser.

I have yet to meet someone that has honestly tried to learn how to WD and not be able to learn how to do it...

 

[blerb]

wavedashing is a physics bug, since when you air dodge into the ground, you have to go somewhere.

and besides, the engine is changed, it's using the Havok engine now. it's one of the best, Halo 3, Half life 2, Bioshock and GRAW/2 (among others) use it.

I don't know why people keep thinking wavedashing was intentional...

 

[Xengri]

Well, i'll put in my two cents on this whole Wavedash thing.

First and foremost, I'd like to say that i have learned how to use WDing but would still want to see it out of brawl.

Logic reason being:
It's a glitch, otherwise know as a imperfection in the game, why would a creator want to leave a imperfection in his/her work?

My own personal reason:
WDing to me is great and increases your performance while playing, Just as any advance tech does. Melee was alot fun when you could go all out at tournaments, even if that meant using a game exploit. Reason being, because basically everyone that wants to seriously stand a chance in a large tournament knows their advance techs, meaning after the first couple of rounds, everyone would be on the same playing field.

That worked fine in Melee, but Brawl has something that Melee doesn't and, thats online play ( who didn't see that coming?). Online it's completely different, A "casual" player would be put up against opponents that are doing things, that he most likely knows about but doesn't fully understand or know how to deal with/ do.
(more people know about WDing then you might think, just alot of them never learn it)

Now i know some of you are thinking "oh, well it's his fault for knowing about WD but not learning it."
Come on, we all know that advance techs take time to learn, time most people would not want to spend on a video game. Must people just want to get on their Wii and play some SSB on wi-fi with random people. Then they would just get stressed out because some person's character is sliding on the ground looking really awkward, hitting them at the speed of light.

Why would Nintendo want this for most of their player base?



I'm content ether way if wavedash is in or out, i'm still buying Brawl the day it comes out. And I'm willing to bet money that only 2-3 (if any) of the people on these forums would not buy brawl just because of no wavedash.

If wavedash was in, I'd play online with random people, but wouldn't use wavedash(it being a exploit, other things are fine), against regular people that I happen to fight (it's fun to just play old fashion anyway, like the game was intended to play. Much easier on the fingers too).
I'd only use WD against a player that i see using it first.

Still ,not many people would be like me, and would run all over "casuals" with all their "crazy and confusing movements" causing casuals to get in a bad mood whenever they happen to run into one of these players.

So really IMO, even though i love Wavedash, having it in brawl would displease much more people then it would please. We can do without it anyways, like others have said, there are much more useful techniques.

PS. I was in a rush, so this isn't the most well written statement, I'm sure. So, grammar/spelling Nazis have a field day!

 

[Wyvern]

The power vs. speed thing still doesn't work when you consider that pikachu and fox have the strongest u-smashes in the game, and Mewtwo (without WD'ing) is hella slow and weak as crap. The game designers were not creating this game with a strong sense of balance in mind, though it's true that this game is more balanced than the average fighter.

I know that there are other, bigger balance issues than just wavedashing. I have admitted as such several times. But if they ignore wavedashing, fix all the balance problems, and then introduce wavedashing again, then guess what? The ones with good wavedashes are now inherently superior. If they balance around wavedashing, then they are forcing an unwilling playerbase to learn how to do it in order to play the game as it was designed, or else be left with a bunch of useless Luigi-like characters (i.e. underpowered to non-wavedashers). This is the issue. I am under the assumption that non-wavedash-related things will be balanced better in Brawl regardless of how wavedashing fits into it, which is why I'm not talking too much about those other things. It doesn't matter how wavedashing fits into Melee's balance, it matters if or how it will fit into Brawl's balance. I only discuss Melee balance because it's the only tangible example.

The punishment for missing a l-cancel is way larger than missing a WD. If you don't l-cancel you can get shieldgrabbed, or it makes it impossibleto do certain combos. If you mess up a wd you eitherairdodge or jump out of the way and you're DI'ing downwards. Besides once you've got it down, WD'ing is as hard as jumping. It's not hard to learn WD'ing. In the time it took you to write your posts, you could've learned it.

Are you joking? Maybe you've been good at it for too long to remember, but an amateur wavedasher is way worse off than someone who deliberately ignores it and just sticks to dashing and rolling. If you don't do it perfectly, you just wind up bouncing and flailing around a lot of the time, completely open and begging to be attacked. Learning how to wavedash properly involves months of getting yourself butchered in matches that you could have easily won if you had just forgotten about it and used dashes and rolls. That's how it works out for me, anyway.

In case it's been too long since you were a wavedash-noob, here are some things that can (and, in my case, probably will) go wrong while attempting to wavedash!

--If you press L too early, you won't dodge at all, but will instead do a full jump. I've been doing some testing, and it turns out that this only affects characters with really slow startup on their jumps. It just so happens that this includes both of my mains (Link and Ganondorf), which is probably partially responsible for me being frustrated with the technique. The quicker characters jump quickly enough that this is rarely an issue.
--If you press L too late, you'll go too high and spend too much of the airdodge in the air. This slows you down and cuts down your distance, which will almost always be enough to screw up whatever you intended to do with the wavedash and will instead give your opponent an excuse to beat the tar out of you while you're wasting your time.
--In the heat of combat, it's easy (at least for me) to accidently airdodge sideways. Your foe, meanwhile, will be patiently waiting for you to come out of it so they can blast you out of the arena with extreme prejudice.

After a total of a few hours of practice, doing a perfect (i.e. never leaving the ground) wavedash with my main (Link) does not happen very often. And even when it does, learning how to actually follow up with something useful is even harder (Link's attacks are laggy as it is, and spending additional time wavedashing isn't usually beneficial), and can't be practiced on your own without an opponent. And since Link's wavedash is so short, the entire maneuver needs to be done perfectly for it to be superior to just sticking to dodging and rolling. Doing a wavedash in training mode is not hard, but doing it in a real match is, and trying to learn it is seriously detrimental to your game until you get it perfect. If you only get to play other people in serious matches once or twice a week, that's a lot of time lost.

Conversely, someone who misses an occasional L-cancel is still better off then someone who thinks they can play without ever doing an aerial at all...so as long as you need the aerials anyway, there's no possible harm in trying to L-cancel after all of them. The attack still goes through if you miss the L-cancel. If you miss the wavedash, you lose your opportunity to attack completely and will get countered.

*And why do you think that it's okay for Luigi to suck unless you trick the game's programming?* Please explain that sentence. I seriously don't understand it. Luigi improves with WD'ing.

Wavedashing is a glitch in the program. A wierd little anomaly that the developers never thought could matter. And now there's a character that's completely useless unless you discover and master this bizarre way of abusing the game's programming. That does not sound like a well-designed character to me! Inherently weak, made tolerable only by accident? When it comes time to design Luigi for Brawl, are they going to just shrug their shoulders and leave him reliant on this crutch? Leave him useless for everyone who doesn't know or doesn't care about wavedashing? And then the rest of the questions follow from that. Please look at them again, because knowing how you stand on this point will help me a lot in understanding your position.

Btw, WD'ing was discovered by the game programmers. They programed when you hit the floor with an airdodge for you to slide. The even labeled it as superlanddash or something of that nature.

I'm pretty sure that that's an urban legend. Last I heard, "landfallspecial" actually just refers to the state a character is in when they're falling after using an up-B or airdodging. You know, when they're blinking and can't do an attack.

And anyway, it doesn't really matter whether or not the developers were aware that wavedashing existed as the programmed behavior for airdodging into the ground. There's no way they predicted that it would be used in combat, which is all that's relevant for the purposes of a discussion on balance.

I made the list to show you the major reasons why a character uses WD. Yes fox uses WD for other things, but it's really mostly for shine combos. If you know why WD is used so much why don't you use it? If it wasn't a part of the game then it wouldn't be there.

The characters I primarily play don't seem to benefit much from wavedashing anyway, so wasting months of playtime learning how to use it (see above) doesn't really seem like a good investment. It won't give me a defense against a waveshining Fox, in any case. And I've never meant to imply that wavedashing is "cheap" or that people shouldn't be doing it in Melee. It's there, and people are going to take advantage of it. It's the way of things. The discussion at hand is whether or not it should return in Brawl, and I feel that it will have a negative overall impact on game balance for some part of the playerbase if it's left as-is without any changes.

 

[Padô]

Well WaveDashing staying is ALMOST acceptable, I think the movement of Wd is bizzare!

If it stays I'd like its animation changed for de love of christ!

 

[Not A Naruto Wannabe]

Nice evidence in the first vid or maybe those somewhat female shoes that wario wears (no pun intended) make traction more difficult.

The only problem I have with wavedashing returning is that it is a "secret" technique, at least not covered in the manual or how to play video. Sakurai, according to the updates we have seen thus far, obviously wants the new player to be able to acheive (or at least not be n00b-stomped as soon as he/she steps into the online world.
Thus, i believe many of the more advances techinques will be cut. However, wavedashing is a somewhat simple technique (come on-i can do it) I personally believe that it will either be completely implemented into the game with its own update, or cut.

A different way to implement it would be to have only certain characters be able to do it. of course this mostly happened in melee, but again it should have its own update covering the(or at least some of the) characters that can perform it.

Thats basically my opinion =)

 

[Not A Naruto Wannabe]

Oh, btw SSBB will run on the Havok physics engine. That might just screw wavedashing from the start but we will have to see.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I've responded to these threads before, but I'm going to do it again, because every time they pop up people continually miss the main issues and just turn it into a "casual vs. tournament" rant.

The predominant view among people on this forum seems to be "I like wavedashing and it should stay exactly the same." THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE. Wavedashing as it is now is a MISTAKE. The developers designed the characters and then wavedashing popped up completely independent from their balancing efforts, having its own random effects on the game. This can't happen again. It's impossible. The developers know about it now. They can't, in good conscience, just ignore it again and hope things work out. They need to consider it. They need to make decisions about it. Regardless of whether or not you are in favor of wavedashing being in Brawl, the fact of the matter is that the developers need to factor it into their work, and that's going to result in some changes, one way or another.

I am going to emphasize this again because it is important. The developers need to worry about wavedashing when they are developing the game, which is a new challenge for them. With things as they are now, some characters (let's say Fox) can do all sorts of crazy and useful things with wavedashing, whereas others (let's say Link) simply can't take advantage of it in the same way. And I think we can all agree that that's one advantage that Fox really didn't need over Link to begin with. For Brawl, it's a safe bet that the developers are going to try to balance Fox and Link better against one another, and the advantages potentially conferred by wavedashing are going to come into play. Similarly, characters like Luigi are currently useless unless you abuse the hell out of the game mechanics. Are the developers going to be okay with this, or should they bring Luigi up to par at the base level?

So, continuing with the developer perspective here, what are their choices? The easiest thing to do is remove wavedashing from the game and balance the characters without worrying about it. They'd have a much more complete grasp of the cast's combo potential and could thus balance it with less unknown factors lurking in the background. And they'd buff characters like Luigi and Ice Climbers so they wouldn't have their wavedash-dependancy anymore. All the characters are equal and the game is balanced (in theory, anyway...they have a lot more than just wavedashing to fix one way or another). The downside? Those who are accustomed to high-level play feel that a layer of complexity has been unjustly removed, which is a totally valid concern. The game is balanced, but the cost might be too great.

Option two. Wavedashing continues to exist, mechanically identical to its current incarnation, and the developers balance around it. Melee's wavedashing elite is happy because their style of play is preserved, and they have a lot more viable characters to play as on top of it. However, now we have a whole new mess of issues. This doesn't change the fact that characters like Bowser and Link suck at wavedashing, so if they're going to be able to compete, they need to be beefed up in other areas. Now we have a situation where Fox and Link are equal in a fight between highly-skilled players...but the Fox player had to work ten times as hard to reach that level of proficiency, because Fox's style of play requires a lot more technical aptitude than Link's. That hardly seems fair. And then there's the non-wavedashing public (who, I hasten to remind you, is the majority by a wide margin). They're now stuck with a poorly-balanced cast...if a wavedashing Fox and a wavedashing Bowser are equal, then a non-wavedashing Bowser is going to beat the living tar out of a non-wavedashing Fox. They feel like the game philosophy that they fell in love with--one which emphasizes skilled application of a small pool of very simple abilities--has been thrown away to cater to the whims of an elite few. And quite frankly, I'd say they had a point.

So, if they remove wavedashing completely, they take some depth and variety away from the game, but if they embrace it as it is now, they throw away the core design philosophy of the series and alienate the larger portion of their audience. This obviously calls for a compromise. My proposition? Drop the whole "air-dodge into the ground before you jump to trick traction into moving you" mess and turn wavedashing (or something similar to it which is more custom-designed for each character rather than working purely off traction) into a basic maneuver with an appropriate control method (diagonal-down while holding L/R is the obvious choice here...almost exactly what it was before but not requiring frame-perfect dexterity). It probably wouldn't be quite as useful as it used to be--it'd have its own animations and everything, which might give it a more fixed distance or tiny amounts lag or something--but its presence in the game would finally be fully justified, it would benefit every level of play, and the developers could integrate it fully into character balance without screwing anybody over.

I disagree with the first option. They know about L-Canceling, and they know it helps Bowser more than Peach, it doens't mean they will just remove WDing I think they don't care about advanced balance, they only care about casual balance. I bet the devlopers though that Link was top tier..

 

[The Hypnotist]

QFT. How many people are on this forum? 74,000 people. This includes non-active members, people with multiple accounts, and people from Nsider forums. How many copies of smash were sold? 6 million. Divide those numbers to find the percent of people who know about WD'ing who will probably get brawl (plus the game will sell more copies).

74,000/6,000,000 = 1.23% of smashers. That's considering that ALL forumgoers are users of WD. I willing to say that less than half of those actually fits into that category. The amount of people who know about WD or use it outside of this forum could be factored in, but it certainly is negligible. Considering it would still be less than 1.23% which already is a hella small number.

Owned by math.

QTF! QTF!

The Wavedashing will prevent casual players to buy is complete bullspit, it doens't make any sense.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Just FTR WDing isn't a glitch. Everything that isn't uninteneded isn't a glitch.

I can't wait until Brawl is out and WDing is in, then the glitch card won't be able to be played, and my ICs will continue to OWN.

 

[thesage]

Just FTR WDing isn't a glitch. Everything that isn't uninteneded isn't a glitch.

I can't wait until Brawl is out and WDing is in, then the glitch card won't be able to be played, and my ICs will continue to OWN.

Lol, what state to you live in. If your east coast we trade wii friend codes now!!!

Edit: nvm, you're in California. That means major lag.... =( We can try to find out how bad it is?

 

[Red Exodus]

Another thing, if WD is a patch for a glitch they'd be patching patches. I don't know how that works but I doubt that would be a very smart move. So sakurai would have 2 chooses:

Leave it in, and avoiding the trouble of fixing something that less than 2% of their customers will use [I have a feeling we will be less than 1% of sales when brawl hits]

Or

Waste time fixing something they made to fix a possible glitch [dodging through the stage], even though it doesn't affect 99% of the customers.

Why piss off 1% of the customers when 99% won't feel the effects either way? They only thing the removal of ATs [advanced techniques] will do is make them lose customers [yes, people will not buy the game if there's no meta-game worth exploring].

 

[The Hypnotist]

Lol, what state to you live in. If your east coast we trade wii friend codes now!!!

Edit: nvm, you're in California. That means major lag.... =( We can try to find out how bad it is?

Yeah we hecka need to play. Who's your main? I play Peach + ICs and I'm kinda good, I guess. and as far as lag, I'm thinking there will be lag only from States to Japan, with items. Remember, he thinks like a casual player, and casuals play with items.

 

[Zero_P]

In the second trailer meta night slided backwards facing the same direction

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well, i'll put in my two cents on this whole Wavedash thing.

First and foremost, I'd like to say that i have learned how to use WDing but would still want to see it out of brawl.

Logic reason being:
It's a glitch, otherwise know as a imperfection in the game, why would a creator want to leave a imperfection in his/her work?

First of all, it isn't a glitch. You may call it in imperfection, but those are inevitable in game design. It's hardly even so. It's a combination of the games traction system and canceling animations for the airdodge which go directly into a crouch. If these simple physics are still in Brawl, the probability of the Wavedash returning is very likely.

Also, without the 'Wavedash' physics, crouch canceling would become extremely broken considering that you wouldn't move upon impact.

My own personal reason:
WDing to me is great and increases your performance while playing, Just as any advance tech does. Melee was alot fun when you could go all out at tournaments, even if that meant using a game exploit. Reason being, because basically everyone that wants to seriously stand a chance in a large tournament knows their advance techs, meaning after the first couple of rounds, everyone would be on the same playing field.

That's pluasable, but playing smash on an advanced tournament level doesn't just revolve around using techniques or who-knows-what. It's obvious that everyone in the tournament knows all of the necessary techniques to play, so it's not even a factor to be taken into consideration. Playing on a high level revolves around concepts beyond the Techniques such as:

-DI (Directional Influence)
-Priority (Whether it be a character attack or a stage platform)
-Stage counter picks
-Mindgames/ Intelligent play
-Character vs. Character scenario

Those who have achieved alot in Smash have gone further into Smash by putting these concepts into high priority over besic technical skill.

And dedication to a game also contributes to a players ability to do well. If X1 player does better than X2 player because X1 player dedicates himself to practicing and learning where X2 does not, that's the facts of life. You cannot expect to achieve success without deducation and practice.

That worked fine in Melee, but Brawl has something that Melee doesn't and, thats online play ( who didn't see that coming?). Online it's completely different, A "casual" player would be put up against opponents that are doing things, that he most likely knows about but doesn't fully understand or know how to deal with/ do.
(more people know about WDing then you might think, just alot of them never learn it)

Um, ok. I don't think that a majority of advanced Smash players will try to replace mainstream playing with online. Why? Lag. Smash Bros a very technical game, thus making it frame dependant. A frame is 1/60 of a second, and every move has a different frame rate. The shine, for example, comes out at 1 frame, thus making it the fastest move in the game. The typical player would JC a shine almost immediatly(2-3 frames), so you can imagine that even the slightest amount of lag can completely ruin a players flow in battle. By these reasons alone, a majority of the Smash Bros players in the competative community will stay with the mainstream tournament. What i'm tying to say is that this problem probably won't be encountered as much as one might think. But even still, why should we limit our capabilities just to please the casual players?

Why would you think that the casual player wouldn't to learn how to use said technique insted of complaining about it? Alot of people encounter situations that they wouldn't normally encounter. Just as in Guilty Gear XX when I started playing in the arcade, I was more of a rather casual player who could hardly roman cancel right. I just happened to encounter a player who knew how to use Eddie's Bite Loops (Even though I didn't know at the time). I was getting owned furiously to the point in which I nearly ran out of money, so I finally asked him, "what is that technique you are doing? I can't get out of it no matter what". He then showed me the basics of using said technique, and Guilty Gear basics amoung other things. I was actually able to get the timing down for a bit before I messed up around 20 hits. He also told me to check the internet for more Guilty Gear information. After several years of playing Guilty Gear now, i'm a competative Ky-Kiske, Order Sol and Baiken player.

All casual players don't attempt to whine about what they don't know, and it's natural for one to encounter things that they don't know when playing online. There are millions of players, so why wouldn't you expect to encounter something you don't know about? Learning is the stepping stone to competative gaming.

Now i know some of you are thinking "oh, well it's his fault for knowing about WD but not learning it."

Yeah, It is their fault. That's it.

Come on, we all know that advance techs take time to learn, time most people would not want to spend on a video game. Must people just want to get on their Wii and play some SSB on wi-fi with random people. Then they would just get stressed out because some person's character is sliding on the ground looking really awkward, hitting them at the speed of light.

That's a complete exaggeration. Why would you expect a casual player to be able to play on a high level without the dedication or insentive to play? I would be ****ed to hell if a casual player who has no dedication towards a game can beat an advanced player who had practiced and dedicated himself. It's a complete contradiction of what defines "skill".

I'm content ether way if wavedash is in or out, i'm still buying Brawl the day it comes out. And I'm willing to bet money that only 2-3 (if any) of the people on these forums would not buy brawl just because of no wavedash.

I slightly agree to this. But the removal of the wavedash would ruin the competative scene for a while.

If wavedash was in, I'd play online with random people, but wouldn't use wavedash(it being a exploit, other things are fine), against regular people that I happen to fight (it's fun to just play old fashion anyway, like the game was intended to play. Much easier on the fingers too).
I'd only use WD against a player that i see using it first.

Still ,not many people would be like me, and would run all over "casuals" with all their "crazy and confusing movements" causing casuals to get in a bad mood whenever they happen to run into one of these players.

Casual players are humans, and being such, they have the insentive to learn as easily they can complain. Sure, alot of casual players complain, but didn't advanced players come from casual players? I actually gained the insentive to learn and compete from getting my arse handed to me. If anything, p[laying your best allows for you to establish limitations with yourself and your opponent. As such, one can clearly dictate who is better, and another can change that by gaining insentive to play as such insted of giving up.

Professional players don't appear out of thin air, they are made. So to the casuals: Quit complaining about how hard it is to do a technique and how it's not fair for people to be better than you. The people who are better than you worked hard for what they wanted, so why don't you think that you have to do the same?

So really IMO, even though i love Wavedash, having it in brawl would displease much more people then it would please. We can do without it anyways, like others have said, there are much more useful techniques.

PS. I was in a rush, so this isn't the most well written statement, I'm sure. So, grammar/spelling Nazis have a field day!

Agreed. But at best, the wavedash is a more underground technique rather than one knows so much. Since such a small percentage of players know it, why would it hurt the casuals? It's possible to appeal to the casual players as well as the advanced players, so why wouldn't Nintendo do that? I for one actually embrace the fact that we can all be happy playing the game the way we want to.

 

[Samochan]

*sigh* The time that takes to learn advanced techs is really minimal and nothing more than 5-10 minutes per day investement can make a player a technical god no matter how hard the technique itself is (think of godly DI, fox crazy comboes, pivot etc.). The thing is, lack of dedication is the single thing that makes a player good or not. No matter how noob or scrub or sucker at games someone is, with enough practice and dedication anyone can become good at this game. I don't even own this game and go to my friend's place to play once per week or two weeks and I practice in game and have some fun while playing and honing my skills at the same time. Heck, I learned to waveshine (albeit still kinks there and there, I really do suck in tech skill) with fox and in overall play this character with no actual practice and I hadn't even touched this character previously. This comes from a player who constantly got owned by MZM MB on easy difficulty. >_> If someone has trouble with overall techs, pick peach of jiggs since most of their techs don't need a brainpower investment while playing or little to no practice (as a matter of fact I play peach cause my tech skill is inconsistant and lacking). It is a conscious choice whether to start playing competitively or not, but in my case my dedication towards this game stems for the love of this game. Within casual gaming I remember myself growing bored since there was nothing new for me, but with the introduction of advanced techs I wanted to improve my skills at smash.

I do think smash would be very shallow game if there would be no meta-game beyond the casual level. Even Pokemon has competitive level of gaming. >_> In my opinion ditching advanced techs from Brawl would hurt the smash community with no meta-game beyond casual level and when balancing is concerned, wavedashing is the least of their issues. Kirby is seemingly supposed to excel only in defensive/evasion skills which include cc, shield, roll, sidestep, shieldgrab and aerial dodge but as funny as it is, sheik happens to be better in all of these skills while not limiting sheik's other skills and stats, unlike with kirby who's other stats are plain horrible to say the least. >_> It's not only move-wise that some characters need nerfing (sheik's dthrow and fox upsmash for example), so advanced techs are really the least of the problems in developing brawl. >_>

 

[DstyCube]

I forgot to say something, and I knew this would happen.
Post was not pointing blame. I'll explain.....
If you think the developers whole goal is to make money, you are dead wrong. The publisher, yes, but not the developer. They are trying to create something. When you make something, you take pride it in, be it from something as simple as baking something, to building a birdhouse or even a car. You take pride in what you made, becuase you made it. Even on an economic standpoint, it's not just about finishing it, but also about making it good so the consumer will continue to purchase your product. Would any of use have bought Melee if Smash sucked.

Does WDing make SSBM suck? I don't believe it does, in fact I think it adds more to the game. I guess if I made a cake like you said and accidentally knocked a bowl of chocolate chips into it without knowing would suck, seeing as how I didn't intend for chocolate chips to be in my cake there is no reason for me to to take pride in it. Even though 99% of the people who tried my cake didn't even notice that there were chocolate chips in the cake but still thought it was still pretty good, while .98% of the people who tried it said that they thought the chocolate chips made it even better, and then there was the last .02% that felt that the chocolate chips ruined the original intent of my chipless cake even though they could just eat around the chocolate chips (see if I make those chocolate chip haters anymore cakes)!

I guess the big issue with WD occurs when people who don't know how to WD play against people who can effectively WD in a fight. But it's not like WD is exclusive to some players, nor it's also not necessary to use to win a match. The first time i found out about WDing was maybe a year ago (before then my friends and I thought we had the entire game figured out lol), and now I use it fairly often.

First, you logic is dumb. Why would they have a technique if it wasn't suppose to be manipulated? Becuase it wasn't suppose to be. I always see someone say "It's not a glitch, it was done so you wouldn't air dodge though the platform". If it's not obvious by now, it may never be. There is a difference between wavedashing and say, sidestep dodging. Sidestep dodging was a technique programed into the game, and was intended to be manipulated. Wavedashing never was, as all it is is to repair a glitch. It's not even close to Snaking, whioch was a technique that was manipulated and brought to the next level, which was not intended. The idea is that while you can claim wavedashin is a technique all you want, it doesn't change that fact that how it's used was never intended, by which means you are playing the game in which the developers didn't see, and probably don't want.

Yeah I can see that WDing is a glitch, and because something was found out by accident means it shouldn't be used. Like remember the story about how the potato chip was invented?
POTATO CHIP STORY!
Yep, by accident I guess people should instead be running around serving potato chips in order to get even with other people for complaining about the potatoes being too thick (what a slap in the face it would be if people actually enjoyed those things)! The idea of people enjoying potato chips is downright wrong, because they weren't intended to be enjoyed. Those glitchy potato chips and the potato chip companies that manipulated them for profit... grr....

So what if their different genres. In fact, Halo 2 and Melee are probably the best sources for comparison. They are both second games in a series, both sold well, being two of the top selling games last generation, have sequels coming out (which Halo 3 already did) and are renowned for their multiplayer, and have strong competitive communities. They are the best examples, despite different genres. But that's what bring me to my point. BXB and BXR are both "techniques" in the game used in the competitive community. But, they also change the game in an undesired way. They also make the Battle Rifle very over powered. As such, it was removed from Halo 3 (again, if you have other evidence, bring it up). Who's to say Smash won't end up the same way. I mean, competitive players liked it, but it was taken out.

How exactly does WD change SSBM in an undesired way? Furthermore overpowered? Is it undesirable to the developers as you stated above? I'm kinda new to the boards, are you one of the developers of SSBM? Because if you are, you're the first developer I've ever heard of to take no pride in SSBM because of the WD glitch and how it has changed the game in an undesirable way. In addition I'm really sorry that the game didn't come out exactly how you planned for it to, but on the bright side a I appreciate the work that went into this game and think that it's great the way it is currently, WDing and all

But this also brings me to the point I made. Developers hate when people do this. Is it anyone's fault. No. But, by doing this, it shows fault in their game. Like I said, when you make something, it's yours and take pride in it. Wouldn't you be upset if someone found a fault you missed, regardless of how small. That's WD to smash. It's taking something that wasn't suppose to be used that way, and just gumming up the works. Sure, not hurting anyone, but it shows fault in their design and messes up their original intent. Also, another reason is that to be "n00b friendly". It's not fun to play someone who is wavedashing when you can't. Despite no leaderboard, I can assure you that people who WD online against random players (if it's in) will be disconnected on in a heartbeat. It's not fun for them. That's why I constantly hear people saying their friends don't like them wavedashing. They don't want to learn it, why should they be put at a major disadvantage. Yes, it DOES put you at a disadvantage whether you like it or not.

It's a good thing its nobody's fault, that way the developers don't feel bad because it's not their fault. Then I guess they don't have to 'hate' when anyone who finds out that a game is more technical and challenging than it was intended to be, since that raises the maximum potential interest that the game could ever have possibly provided before said fault was ever discovered.

Honestly is WDing overpowered or something? I guess it does require a great deal of effort to pull off correctly as opposed to not using it all to move a short distance marginally faster is kinda shady... oh! Don't forget mind games, they're shady business too! It's kind of funny because I remember for the longest time while practicing WDing that I could do so much better if I would stop trying to incorporate it into my game, but after months of practicing it pays off that I am now at an advantage over all other people who do not WD, except for a few of my friends who don't WD and they can still beat me sometimes, I guess there's a few exceptions to the rules amirite? And I guess they don't have fun either, jeeze, why do people insist on playing in order to have no fun? Yeah now that I think about it, when I didn't know how to WD and i played against people who did, and I actually beat them, I didn't have too much fun beating them and their overpowered tactics. Underdogs for the lose!

Must say dude, it wouldn't have been as hard if you didn't beleive you were right without fault 100% (besides, some styuff you said made little sence and was irrelivant). gg

It's okay, no ones ever 100% right

 

[Eaode]

Wavedashing is not a glitch. Every part of it is intended to happen in the game engine. The jump is intended, the airdodge is there, and can be used in a direction. They programmed it so that the game makes you land when you hit the ground. They programmed traction so that you slide if you retain momentum.

All of these things are supposed to happen. Wavedashing is simply using all of these intended game mechanics in an unforseen way that is beneficial to the player.

I repeat, Wavedashing, is in NO WAY a glitch.

 

[2007]

Who cares if it is? the black hole glitch is cool, and it really is a glitch.

I'm not sure why people just rant and rant about it being in. what people should do is ask the anti-WDers why they don't want it in, and provide god reasoning for it.

 

[Catskill_Crew]

I'm not going to read this whole thing, but does anyone realize how easy WDing will become?


You can configure the controller ANY way you want.

That will makes basically EVERYTHING hella easier for the casual gamer to perform advanced techniques, imo.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Who cares if it is? the black hole glitch is cool, and it really is a glitch.

I'm not sure why people just rant and rant about it being in. what people should do is ask the anti-WDers why they don't want it in, and provide god reasoning for it.

I'm sorry, but no one can provide "god" reasoning.

However, I'm sure someone with enough time can provide a "good" reason.

Oh and Roy suxx0rz.

 

[senorspoof]

Not sure if this has been said...

Well, I think for the most part, we can agree that airdodging will be present. One of the problems with smash 64 was that once you were in a combo, you were kind of stuck. The lack of DI made you basically pray your opponent would mess up. SSBM, to combat that, threw in DI, and on top of that, air dodging. This way, playrs could struggle out of combos, creating an environment where nothing is certain, and no combo is sacred.

Now, essentially, wavedashing is a sudden change in velocity. Whether it be a boost forward, back, up, down, or any combination, it is a sharp and rapid change. So if one uses their sharp and rapid change to direct themselves at ground level, there are two options. One, the player stops. This makes little to no sense, as the velocity is completely wasted. Essentially, the airdodge is a boost, and this would make the boost non-usable at ground level. Especailly with nintendo trying to allegedly make the physics "more realistic" (no flinch, etc) while still keeping the aspects of the game fun to play, a boosts velocity should only stop if it hits an object, say a wall. Now what should happen is this. A player air dodges very low, and along the ground. Instead of stopping dead in place, their "boost" continues, giving them a small, yet definite movement.

Aside from removing air dodging entirely, it appears as if wavedashing is here to stay...

 

[Aeramis]

Wavedashing is very easy to do in melee and if you can't do WDs then you probably suck or haven't taken the time to practice it at all... It isn't required but it is a very nice option for most characters to work it in with their style of play. Wavedashing is not a glitch and perfectly legal at tournaments so if you don't want to be garbage at Brawl learn to use and counter everything. With online in Brawl, I bet this game will be even more hardcore then Melee in the skill department. The community as a whole should benefit from this but only time will tell.

BTW Wario looks like he is Wavelanding in that video. Nice find.

 

[Not A Naruto Wannabe]

Who cares if it is? the black hole glitch is cool, and it really is a glitch.

I'm not sure why people just rant and rant about it being in. what people should do is ask the anti-WDers why they don't want it in, and provide god reasoning for it.

Glitch = something UNINTENDED.

Though melee was full of cool glitches, i still think that the developers of brawl should attempt to make a glitch-free game (not likely but thats why i said attempt)

If that means removing wavedashing, so be it.

 

[Takeshi245]

Just something I wanted to add.

Glitch = something UNINTENDED.

Though melee was full of cool glitches, i still think that the developers of brawl should attempt to make a glitch-free game (not likely but thats why i said attempt)

If that means removing wavedashing, so be it.

Wavedashing is not a glitch. Every part of it is intended to happen in the game engine. The jump is intended, the airdodge is there, and can be used in a direction. They programmed it so that the game makes you land when you hit the ground. They programmed traction so that you slide if you retain momentum.

All of these things are supposed to happen. Wavedashing is simply using all of these intended game mechanics in an unforseen way that is beneficial to the player.

I repeat, Wavedashing, is in NO WAY a glitch.

 

[thesage]

Yeah we hecka need to play. Who's your main? I play Peach + ICs and I'm kinda good, I guess. and as far as lag, I'm thinking there will be lag only from States to Japan, with items. Remember, he thinks like a casual player, and casuals play with items.

K, I'll post up my wii code, I main Ness, Peach, and Jiggs.

 

[Red Exodus]

@ Naruto Wannabe

If they made Brawl 100% glitch free they would have to waste money on play testers and remove the release date until they think they have all of the glitches.

I don't know about you but I can hardly wait until Dec 3rd, imagine having to wait 6 or more months just so Sakurai could get rid of a few unintended things that 1% of the customers use. It would make oh so much sense to piss off 99% of their customers [by delaying Brawl] just for something that won't affect them at all.

 

[SSBFalco]

Glitch = something UNINTENDED.

Though melee was full of cool glitches, i still think that the developers of brawl should attempt to make a glitch-free game (not likely but thats why i said attempt)

If that means removing wavedashing, so be it.

So according to your logic, anything that is unintended in the game is a glitch. That would make half of the game a glitch. Can you honestly say that the developers intended for Fox and Falco's shine to be used as primarily an attack as opposed to using it defensively to reflect projectiles? Then it's unintended, making the shine a glitch.

Do you think the developers intended Shiek to be more powerful and faster than Zelda, making it no gain in switching to her when you can be the more superior Shiek? Then Shiek is a glitch.

Did the developers intentionally make Falco's standing SHL laser so useless when you can use SHL instead? Then Falco's laser is a glitch. You can go on and on like this. Saying that wavedashing is a glitch because the developers did not intend it to be used is not a valid reason to remove wavedash from Brawl. The only thing that developers intended is for players to try to knock each other off the stage in order to win.