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Another Pro Wavedashing Thread (It's a good ones)

Exorcist

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 21, 2006
Messages
332
1. Wavedashing is not going to be announced to the public like it is actually part of the game. People who play the game at a casual level don't even have to know about WDing. There's no point for them to even worry themselves about it. If they happen to play someone at a higher level of play and are angry because that person is using exploits then theres nothing you could do. But the overall fact is that if they take it out, casuals wouldn't care at all but tourney players will be a little taken back. Nintendo has seen advanced play, and there are even some Ninty people that play at a tourney level.

2. Halo2 had a HUGE HUGE amount of exploits. There was BXB, and BXR, and the automatic battle rifle slide thing. And the people who made Halo2 were absolutely grateful that their game could be played at such a high level of play because it brought such divircity to the game in the way that it could be played in a much advanced level(but it wasn't manditory to play this way, it could also be a pick up and play game). My point? Well guess how many of these exploits they left in the game for Halo3? Last time I checked... absolutely all of them.

3. WDing iz da funZorzZ

But really, I hope this thread isn't closed, it's the most organized and reasonable discussion that I've seen so far. All the rest I've seen are "Wavedashing. In or out?" and that is the whole thread.
 

IShotLazer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
361
Location
Falcon kick.
I believe wavedashing is going to be in the game and I agree with the OP.
More-on, ou guys seem to forget what makes a game a good game in the first place.
Look, a good game is usually a game that involves alot of people, in order to attract a lot of people you the game must have a simple learning curve. You find that the game is relativly fun when you feel like you're having an impact and you feel that you are at least decent at the game while playing it (even if you know you aren't or you suck completly). Also, working hard in a game to get better will pay off most of the time as long as you're doing it right and the game allows for it, meaning the game has to be flexible. A game that is not satisfying is a game where a newb can beat a pr0, simply because the game doesn't leave a route to better yourself. Mortal combat was TOO good of an example, (in fact thats where the term n00b came from) all someone had to do to beat almost ANYONE was pick n00b saibot and do the vanishing underground attack. Not very satisfying however is very easy to pick up on.
So the learning curve has to be easy to pick up on, and VERY hard to master however shows benefits.

What this has to do with wavedashing is wavedashing is a "Pro" tactic, however, unless you put A LOT of effort into learning wavedashing it won't do you anygood, so unless you WANT to become much better you have to practice, think of ways it can benefit you, and many other things. In fact in Melee, someone the just learned wavedashing won't be able to use beneficially at all because they haven't trained themselves to be able to use it in combat. Someone that knows wavedashing also does not necessarily have a huge advantage over someone who does not. Example, take aniki, who is very good at Smash, he hardly ever uses wavedash (even with samus) however is a very well known pro.
L-Cancel also adds on to the point that there will be wavedashing in the game, L-Cancel has been in both games of Smash, and was also put in there intentionally. Obviously this is an advance tactic, but why would it be in here? Answer is that it leaves openings to better someone's game if they choose to practice, so it has payoffs to play your favorite game.
 

IShotLazer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
361
Location
Falcon kick.
2. Halo2 had a HUGE HUGE amount of exploits. There was BXB, and BXR, and the automatic battle rifle slide thing. And the people who made Halo2 were absolutely grateful that their game could be played at such a high level of play because it brought such divircity to the game in the way that it could be played in a much advanced level(but it wasn't manditory to play this way, it could also be a pick up and play game). My point? Well guess how many of these exploits they left in the game for Halo3? Last time I checked... absolutely all of them.
lol wut?
Halo3 took all of its exploits out...
 

Speedsk8er

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
2,212
Location
Raleigh, NC
Wave-dashing: I don't get it....


Now that wavedashing has gained so much negative hype I could see Nintendo either removing it entirely or making perhaps a simple two button combo so "casuals" can do it.

-Knight


LOL Wavedashing IS a two button combo. Anyone who spends thirty minutes developing the muscle memory can learn it.

What's the big fuss over wave-dashing? Why is it that so many people hate it so much? Why is it viewed as this game-breaking technique? I really don't ****ing get it!

It is infinitely helpful to ANYONE'S game. No matter what character you main. Hell, I remember when I was posting on the Peach boards and I mentioned how bad her wavedash was(because is it [mark mcdonald]TERRIBLE[/mark mcdonald]) and people there jumped on me, mentioning how useful it was to her game for spacing, etc. If peach can get use out of wave-dashing, ANYONE can. What's so terrible about wave-dashing again? It helps EVERYONE.

About a year ago, I was playing one of my friends. My Ice Climbers 3 stocked his Link. He said that he hope wave-dashing would be removed becaause it breaks the balance of the game. A few monthes later, He wants to learn how to wavedash. ....

I love how people mention pros who DON'T wavedash, like Aniki and .....and.... uhhhh... who else? These people are like the ones sayign that tiers don't exist because of players like Gimpyfish and Taj(who uses MArth and Fox in tournies BTW). It's a freakign lame argument and I wish people would stop with them.

The usual argument that I see is, "IT WASN'T INTENDED BY THE DEVELOPERS!!". LEt's go back to Smash 64. Z-cancelling wasn't intended. Ledge-hopping wasn't intended, Double Jump-cancelling wasn't intended. All beneficial and they all made it into melee. Also, Float-cancellign wasn't intended. Edge-cancelling wasn't intended. Foxtrotting wasn't intended. Dash-dancing wasn't intended. I'm sure that pivotting wasn't intended. I could go on forever. If we're gonna take things out because they weren't intended by the developers, Smash Bros would be the most depth-less, garbage excuse for a fighting game ever. Then what? NO ONE would buy the game.

Another argument is that other characters can't do it as well as others. DIFFEREBNT CHARACTERS HAVE DIFFERENT ATTRIBUTES. Bowser's L-cancelled aerials aren't as quick as Pichu's. Ness's U smash isn't as powerful as ANYONE'S Usmash. How about we all just use the same characters if you're gonna say that?

Another example of how wave-dashing "breask the game" is "Look at the Ice Climbers position on the tier list. My response to that is "LOOK AT LUIGI AND MEWTWO'S POSITION ON THE TIER LIST". Mewtwo's WD is BARELY worse than IC's. Oh shi-, he's bottom tier. Luigi has the best wave-dash in the game. He's lower than IC. IC is in 7th place(which IMO is a litte high anyways) because they are legitimately good characters and with techniques like desynching, they have hella potential. Not because they slide far. PEach is 5th place and she has one of the worst WDs in the game.

The most recent one that I've seen is "We have enough defensive manuevers, why add another? WHY NOT? Some characters like GaW have overall ****ty defensive options(bad sheild, roll, AND SPOTDODGE? ugh) He needs something like wavedashing to help him be better balanced(His wave-dash is actually pretty good too. ^_^). The more defensive options, the better.

Also, there's the "What about the casual market? Wave-dahsing will scare them away when they get 4 stocked on Wifi!". Players skilled enough to 4stock players with WD will 4stock them without it. We will appear to be moving at the speed of light anyways will all of our shuffles and cancels. The only way that Nintendo will make it so that casuals stand a chance against us would be to removed ALL adv tech. Refer to my 6th paragraph to know how THAT would turn out.

I'm not trying to insuld that Anti-WD people. It's not the Be-all-end-all of adv-tech. I really just cant wrap my head around why people would hate something beneficial to everyone's game.


TL:DR? Wave-dashing is good. It should stay. Need proof? MArio Kart. Snaking still lives.
 

Kirby knight

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
1,479
Location
Pennsylvania
LOL Wavedashing IS a two button combo. Anyone who spends thirty minutes developing the muscle memory can learn it.
I was speaking of something like just hold L and X, then tapping the controlstick to the desired direction.

What's the big fuss over wave-dashing? Why is it that so many people hate it so much? Why is it viewed as this game-breaking technique? I really don't ****ing get it!
Lol, don't ask me. I don't care for it either way ( I do use it during my game sometimes ) but as long as SSBB adds more techs I don't see; if WD'ing is gone it's be such a problem.

I think people hate it so much is that, "it looks" like it makes your game better just by doing it. Of course you have to do a number of things to incoporate it into your game to use it effectively but "it looks" like WD'ing makes you better just by doing that. Casuals see that and I guess are mad that they cannot be as good but just learning WD'ing or not being able to.

-Knight
 

Takeshi245

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
2,051
Location
Ansonia, CT
LOL Wavedashing IS a two button combo. Anyone who spends thirty minutes developing the muscle memory can learn it.

What's the big fuss over wave-dashing? Why is it that so many people hate it so much? Why is it viewed as this game-breaking technique? I really don't ****ing get it!

It is infinitely helpful to ANYONE'S game. No matter what character you main. Hell, I remember when I was posting on the Peach boards and I mentioned how bad her wavedash was(because is it [mark mcdonald]TERRIBLE[/mark mcdonald]) and people there jumped on me, mentioning how useful it was to her game for spacing, etc. If peach can get use out of wave-dashing, ANYONE can. What's so terrible about wave-dashing again? It helps EVERYONE.

About a year ago, I was playing one of my friends. My Ice Climbers 3 stocked his Link. He said that he hope wave-dashing would be removed becaause it breaks the balance of the game. A few monthes later, He wants to learn how to wavedash. ....

I love how people mention pros who DON'T wavedash, like Aniki and .....and.... uhhhh... who else? These people are like the ones sayign that tiers don't exist because of players like Gimpyfish and Taj(who uses MArth and Fox in tournies BTW). It's a freakign lame argument and I wish people would stop with them.

The usual argument that I see is, "IT WASN'T INTENDED BY THE DEVELOPERS!!". LEt's go back to Smash 64. Z-cancelling wasn't intended. Ledge-hopping wasn't intended, Double Jump-cancelling wasn't intended. All beneficial and they all made it into melee. Also, Float-cancellign wasn't intended. Edge-cancelling wasn't intended. Foxtrotting wasn't intended. Dash-dancing wasn't intended. I'm sure that pivotting wasn't intended. I could go on forever. If we're gonna take things out because they weren't intended by the developers, Smash Bros would be the most depth-less, garbage excuse for a fighting game ever. Then what? NO ONE would buy the game.

Another argument is that other characters can't do it as well as others. DIFFEREBNT CHARACTERS HAVE DIFFERENT ATTRIBUTES. Bowser's L-cancelled aerials aren't as quick as Pichu's. Ness's U smash isn't as powerful as ANYONE'S Usmash. How about we all just use the same characters if you're gonna say that?

Another example of how wave-dashing "breask the game" is "Look at the Ice Climbers position on the tier list. My response to that is "LOOK AT LUIGI AND MEWTWO'S POSITION ON THE TIER LIST". Mewtwo's WD is BARELY worse than IC's. Oh shi-, he's bottom tier. Luigi has the best wave-dash in the game. He's lower than IC. IC is in 7th place(which IMO is a litte high anyways) because they are legitimately good characters and with techniques like desynching, they have hella potential. Not because they slide far. PEach is 5th place and she has one of the worst WDs in the game.

The most recent one that I've seen is "We have enough defensive manuevers, why add another? WHY NOT? Some characters like GaW have overall ****ty defensive options(bad sheild, roll, AND SPOTDODGE? ugh) He needs something like wavedashing to help him be better balanced(His wave-dash is actually pretty good too. ^_^). The more defensive options, the better.

Also, there's the "What about the casual market? Wave-dahsing will scare them away when they get 4 stocked on Wifi!". Players skilled enough to 4stock players with WD will 4stock them without it. We will appear to be moving at the speed of light anyways will all of our shuffles and cancels. The only way that Nintendo will make it so that casuals stand a chance against us would be to removed ALL adv tech. Refer to my 6th paragraph to know how THAT would turn out.

I'm not trying to insuld that Anti-WD people. It's not the Be-all-end-all of adv-tech. I really just cant wrap my head around why people would hate something beneficial to everyone's game.


TL:DR? Wave-dashing is good. It should stay. Need proof? MArio Kart. Snaking still lives.
Good post there, Speedsk8er. I believe that wavedashing will most likely stay as Nintendo even knows about it and with what I've seen, I assume that they think it's not a bad idea. Many players don't know about wavedashing, so they could make an update about it in Smash Dojo. Wavedashing isn't broken, doesn't grant a win, and is fun and strategic to use. You can still wavedash and be a terrible player.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
Not bad, but a few things.......
Ju

1. First there's this... I think MOST of us here can agree that this is wavelanding or at least some type of sliding. Physics similar to wavedashing. This is almost a dead give away.

Am I the only one who sees that he's just landing. Characters do that when they land. The angle in which he hit the ground and his speed is what makes him slide like that. Other characters do it too.
Name a good reason for NINTENDO to remove wavedashing? If your going to say because it's cheap, please explain how it's cheap.
Because developers hate when people do this. By discovering wavedashing, you essentually ruin what they make. Now, what they worked hard on is manipulated and skewered. By doing this, you find fault in the game. So, next time, they try and take it out as to "fix a mistake" and keep the game to be played how it was originally intended. I know all you "pros" will say "Oh, we can play as we like. That's how Smash is" but I sure as hell know that it was not the developer's original intent to have wavedashing be manipulated. Don't believe me. Look at Halo 3. BXR and BXB, two big conmpetative elements in Halo 2 are taken out. Sure, people like them, but developers hate it. Of course, if anyone has any info otherwise, bring it.
 
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
8,377
Location
Long Beach,California
Not bad, but a few things.......

Am I the only one who sees that he's just landing. Characters do that when they land. The angle in which he hit the ground and his speed is what makes him slide like that. Other characters do it too.
I think that the most important thing that we should emphasis on is the physics of the land rather than the land itself...

Because developers hate when people do this. By discovering wavedashing, you essentually ruin what they make. Now, what they worked hard on is manipulated and skewered. By doing this, you find fault in the game. So, next time, they try and take it out as to "fix a mistake" and keep the game to be played how it was originally intended. I know all you "pros" will say "Oh, we can play as we like. That's how Smash is" but I sure as hell know that it was not the developer's original intent to have wavedashing be manipulated. Don't believe me. Look at Halo 3. BXR and BXB, two big conmpetative elements in Halo 2 are taken out. Sure, people like them, but developers hate it. Of course, if anyone has any info otherwise, bring it.
Oh, shut up. How are we ruining the game when the key reason for this games development was to make money? If some one owns the game, the developer dosn't care about the individual consumer. I can hardly believe that a slight manipulation of the physics engine can cause such a catastrophic uproar umoung people beyond common sense. The Wavedash works like it does for a reason, not just because of a few specific functions.

So, why would they have a technique in a game if it wasn't meant to be manipulated? It doesn't make any sense. Individuals are free to make what decisions they want with their purchsed game as long as they agree with the copyright laws, and I don't see anything that labled the wavedash as a penalty of law if used consistently.

And another thing, quit comparing Halo to Smash. One is a fighter and one is a First Person Shooter. Both of them are made by different companies, get over it.
 

Tsukuyomi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Messages
279
Air dodging backwards towards the ground causing the sliding effect = wavedashing of goodness...

Air dodging backwards towards the ground causing the sticking effect = inch movement backward...

Either way, sliding or moving just one inch still has their values...
 

IShotLazer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
361
Location
Falcon kick.
I love how people mention pros who DON'T wavedash, like Aniki and .....and.... uhhhh... who else? These people are like the ones sayign that tiers don't exist because of players like Gimpyfish and Taj(who uses MArth and Fox in tournies BTW). It's a freakign lame argument and I wish people would stop with them.
Huh... you obviously didn't either read or comprehend what i said...
actually that comment seems more like its solely to insult people instead of bring up good point in an arguement.

Anyway, if you read what I was saying earlier its to show that it would be feasibly pointless to take wavedashing out because it doesn't necessarily make you good or bad. All I need is a one person example, thats it, and thats what I did to get across my point effectivly.

Wavedashing has impact on the game, but taking it out can only bring negative influence into the game, people that complain about wavedashing are STILL going to buy the game in the first place (they know about wavedashing so they aren't casual gamers as people may bring up). Casual gamers dont even know about wavedashing in the first place (this one fact is actually enough to solidly end the argument A more competitive game is better for sales as well, wavedashing helps with the tournament scene. Wavedashing became very famous (I don't really know why but... ok, L-cancel is better and they purposly put it into the game) and drew in many people that didn't know squat about the game and drove them to become much better via advanced tactics.
 

reelbigfishstix9

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
116
Location
Boca Raton, Fl (FAU)
Huh... you obviously didn't either read or comprehend what i said...
actually that comment seems more like its solely to insult people instead of bring up good point in an arguement.

Anyway, if you read what I was saying earlier its to show that it would be feasibly pointless to take wavedashing out because it doesn't necessarily make you good or bad. All I need is a one person example, thats it, and thats what I did to get across my point effectivly.

Wavedashing has impact on the game, but taking it out can only bring negative influence into the game, people that complain about wavedashing are STILL going to buy the game in the first place (they know about wavedashing so they aren't casual gamers as people may bring up). Casual gamers dont even know about wavedashing in the first place (this one fact is actually enough to solidly end the argument A more competitive game is better for sales as well, wavedashing helps with the tournament scene. Wavedashing became very famous (I don't really know why but... ok, L-cancel is better and they purposly put it into the game) and drew in many people that didn't know squat about the game and drove them to become much better via advanced tactics.

What he said. Someones finally on the right track. This could end just with that..lol. Oh and someone said a good idea on another thread. He was talking about how if Nintendo Power or whatever company gets to play a trial verson, y dont we just send a bunch of letters asking to try something like that out. I am sure nintendo power would post something if people sent them Emails and what not. But if no one is playing the game or a demo before its release, then nevermind. lol :)
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,923
Location
Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
LOL Wavedashing IS a two button combo. Anyone who spends thirty minutes developing the muscle memory can learn it.

What's the big fuss over wave-dashing? Why is it that so many people hate it so much? Why is it viewed as this game-breaking technique? I really don't ****ing get it!

It is infinitely helpful to ANYONE'S game. No matter what character you main. Hell, I remember when I was posting on the Peach boards and I mentioned how bad her wavedash was(because is it [mark mcdonald]TERRIBLE[/mark mcdonald]) and people there jumped on me, mentioning how useful it was to her game for spacing, etc. If peach can get use out of wave-dashing, ANYONE can. What's so terrible about wave-dashing again? It helps EVERYONE.

About a year ago, I was playing one of my friends. My Ice Climbers 3 stocked his Link. He said that he hope wave-dashing would be removed becaause it breaks the balance of the game. A few monthes later, He wants to learn how to wavedash. ....

I love how people mention pros who DON'T wavedash, like Aniki and .....and.... uhhhh... who else? These people are like the ones sayign that tiers don't exist because of players like Gimpyfish and Taj(who uses MArth and Fox in tournies BTW). It's a freakign lame argument and I wish people would stop with them.

The usual argument that I see is, "IT WASN'T INTENDED BY THE DEVELOPERS!!". LEt's go back to Smash 64. Z-cancelling wasn't intended. Ledge-hopping wasn't intended, Double Jump-cancelling wasn't intended. All beneficial and they all made it into melee. Also, Float-cancellign wasn't intended. Edge-cancelling wasn't intended. Foxtrotting wasn't intended. Dash-dancing wasn't intended. I'm sure that pivotting wasn't intended. I could go on forever. If we're gonna take things out because they weren't intended by the developers, Smash Bros would be the most depth-less, garbage excuse for a fighting game ever. Then what? NO ONE would buy the game.

Another argument is that other characters can't do it as well as others. DIFFEREBNT CHARACTERS HAVE DIFFERENT ATTRIBUTES. Bowser's L-cancelled aerials aren't as quick as Pichu's. Ness's U smash isn't as powerful as ANYONE'S Usmash. How about we all just use the same characters if you're gonna say that?

Another example of how wave-dashing "breask the game" is "Look at the Ice Climbers position on the tier list. My response to that is "LOOK AT LUIGI AND MEWTWO'S POSITION ON THE TIER LIST". Mewtwo's WD is BARELY worse than IC's. Oh shi-, he's bottom tier. Luigi has the best wave-dash in the game. He's lower than IC. IC is in 7th place(which IMO is a litte high anyways) because they are legitimately good characters and with techniques like desynching, they have hella potential. Not because they slide far. PEach is 5th place and she has one of the worst WDs in the game.

The most recent one that I've seen is "We have enough defensive manuevers, why add another? WHY NOT? Some characters like GaW have overall ****ty defensive options(bad sheild, roll, AND SPOTDODGE? ugh) He needs something like wavedashing to help him be better balanced(His wave-dash is actually pretty good too. ^_^). The more defensive options, the better.

Also, there's the "What about the casual market? Wave-dahsing will scare them away when they get 4 stocked on Wifi!". Players skilled enough to 4stock players with WD will 4stock them without it. We will appear to be moving at the speed of light anyways will all of our shuffles and cancels. The only way that Nintendo will make it so that casuals stand a chance against us would be to removed ALL adv tech. Refer to my 6th paragraph to know how THAT would turn out.

I'm not trying to insuld that Anti-WD people. It's not the Be-all-end-all of adv-tech. I really just cant wrap my head around why people would hate something beneficial to everyone's game.


TL:DR? Wave-dashing is good. It should stay. Need proof? MArio Kart. Snaking still lives.
There should be no more WD threads after this.
 

Kelexo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
360
"If wavedashing was a glitch, it would have been removed from the many versions of Melee"

Then why can any version of Melee achieve so many strange glitches, such as infinite super scopes and people getting stuck to mewtwo
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
I think that the most important thing that we should emphasis on is the physics of the land rather than the land itself...
I'm not sure what your getting at

Oh, shut up. How are we ruining the game when the key reason for this games development was to make money? If some one owns the game, the developer dosn't care about the individual consumer. I can hardly believe that a slight manipulation of the physics engine can cause such a catastrophic uproar umoung people beyond common sense. The Wavedash works like it does for a reason, not just because of a few specific functions.
I forgot to say something, and I knew this would happen.
Post was not pointing blame. I'll explain.....
If you think the developers whole goal is to make money, you are dead wrong. The publisher, yes, but not the developer. They are trying to create something. When you make something, you take pride it in, be it from something as simple as baking something, to building a birdhouse or even a car. You take pride in what you made, becuase you made it. Even on an economic standpoint, it's not just about finishing it, but also about making it good so the consumer will continue to purchase your product. Would any of use have bought Melee if Smash sucked.

So, why would they have a technique in a game if it wasn't meant to be manipulated? It doesn't make any sense. Individuals are free to make what decisions they want with their purchsed game as long as they agree with the copyright laws, and I don't see anything that labled the wavedash as a penalty of law if used consistently.
First, you logic is dumb. Why would they have a technique if it wasn't suppose to be manipulated? Becuase it wasn't suppose to be. I always see someone say "It's not a glitch, it was done so you wouldn't air dodge though the platform". If it's not obvious by now, it may never be. There is a difference between wavedashing and say, sidestep dodging. Sidestep dodging was a technique programed into the game, and was intended to be manipulated. Wavedashing never was, as all it is is to repair a glitch. It's not even close to Snaking, whioch was a technique that was manipulated and brought to the next level, which was not intended. The idea is that while you can claim wavedashin is a technique all you want, it doesn't change that fact that how it's used was never intended, by which means you are playing the game in which the developers didn't see, and probably don't want.

Also, your comment on copyright has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and thus phails.
And another thing, quit comparing Halo to Smash. One is a fighter and one is a First Person Shooter. Both of them are made by different companies, get over it.
So what if their different genres. In fact, Halo 2 and Melee are probably the best sources for comparison. They are both second games in a series, both sold well, being two of the top selling games last generation, have sequels coming out (which Halo 3 already did) and are renowned for their multiplayer, and have strong competitive communities. They are the best examples, despite different genres. But that's what bring me to my point. BXB and BXR are both "techniques" in the game used in the competitive community. But, they also change the game in an undesired way. They also make the Battle Rifle very over powered. As such, it was removed from Halo 3 (again, if you have other evidence, bring it up). Who's to say Smash won't end up the same way. I mean, competitive players liked it, but it was taken out.

But this also brings me to the point I made. Developers hate when people do this. Is it anyone's fault. No. But, by doing this, it shows fault in their game. Like I said, when you make something, it's yours and take pride in it. Wouldn't you be upset if someone found a fault you missed, regardless of how small. That's WD to smash. It's taking something that wasn't suppose to be used that way, and just gumming up the works. Sure, not hurting anyone, but it shows fault in their design and messes up their original intent. Also, another reason is that to be "n00b friendly". It's not fun to play someone who is wavedashing when you can't. Despite no leaderboard, I can assure you that people who WD online against random players (if it's in) will be disconnected on in a heartbeat. It's not fun for them. That's why I constantly hear people saying their friends don't like them wavedashing. They don't want to learn it, why should they be put at a major disadvantage. Yes, it DOES put you at a disadvantage whether you like it or not.

Must say dude, it wouldn't have been as hard if you didn't beleive you were right without fault 100% (besides, some styuff you said made little sence and was irrelivant). gg
 

Takalth

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
597
More-on, ou guys seem to forget what makes a game a good game in the first place.
Look, a good game is usually a game that involves alot of people, in order to attract a lot of people you the game must have a simple learning curve. You find that the game is relativly fun when you feel like you're having an impact and you feel that you are at least decent at the game while playing it (even if you know you aren't or you suck completly). Also, working hard in a game to get better will pay off most of the time as long as you're doing it right and the game allows for it, meaning the game has to be flexible. A game that is not satisfying is a game where a newb can beat a pr0, simply because the game doesn't leave a route to better yourself. Mortal combat was TOO good of an example, (in fact thats where the term n00b came from) all someone had to do to beat almost ANYONE was pick n00b saibot and do the vanishing underground attack. Not very satisfying however is very easy to pick up on.
So the learning curve has to be easy to pick up on, and VERY hard to master however shows benefits.
Best comment on the thread so far. For those talking about how wavedashing is anti-casual or steepens the learning curve, it doesn't.

In fact, the only way wavedashing would steepen the learning curve is if they followed the common suggestion to put it in the instructions book or give it a special button. As long as it's a fancy physics trick that only people who look up techniquest on the Internet know about, it has no effect on the learning curve. However, if it's in the instruction book or anything like that, casuals will feel obligated to learn it.

If Nintendo truly wanted to close the gap between casuals and pros (which I doubt they do), cutting wavedashing wouldn't help. They'd pretty much have to wreck the whole game. If they want to keep Smash as an "Easy to learn, Difficult to master" game, leaving wavedashing in is an easy way to support that.
 

Jackal478

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Wario is actually walking in that GIF.
-the dust is just his weight giving that off
-he runs so ackwardly he doesn't even look like he's moving anything but his feet
-it doesn't really disprove or prove WD'ing
 

CartooN

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Im still very skeptical over the whole "wavedashing was intentionally put in" stuff that a lot of people are saying. Im not saying its wrong, Im just saying there are many other explainations (Maybe they didnt know about it at the time, maybe they didnt know how to remove it without causing other problems etc etc)
- on the wario slide gif Im still thinking that that has something to do with the fact he is landing on a slope and the new pyshics have been created to allow sliding downhill (for stuff like vehicals and boxes) and may even hint at other stuff like traction when walking up hill.
- As for nintendo right now, with knowledge of its existance and putting it into brawl. Im realy not sure, I think that in order to add to the so called "depth" of the game they will be adding some more technical advance features (Like gliding) but making them obvously more known, so it will come down to who can do the techs rather than who knows them (as I am sure there are still some people out there un know to the wavedashing). This also adds to the whole "wii games are for everybody" theme and Im sure if wavedashing is removed, it will be replaced with something similar.

Wether wavedashing is in or not, I realy dont mind. I can do it, I like doing it but I can also turn it on and off pretty easily so I wont be upset without it.
 

Phlemingo

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this might have been mentioned before but in melee they had words such as "skid master" and "edge hog" as skills you could acquire in vs. and one player mode so in my opinion if these techniques were put into the games vocabulary then why would it be any different in brawl?
 

The Hypnotist

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Now I really don't care for Wavedashing returning or not but I just wanted to say a few things because this Wavedashing topic seems alot better than the previous ones.

Now 1st and formost people have to remember the target audience. Those so called "casuals". You cannot discount the influence they have when Ninteno is making a game for them. There are many many many Advance techs but tell me which is the most well known? Most talked about? (If you don't know it's wavedashing -_-).

If the people who used wavedashing didn't constanstly rub it in casuals faces they I wouldn't think they'd be ***** about it like they do now. (L-Cancels have never gotten the same backlash that wavedashing has). Nintendo obviously has seen what wavedashing is. Now the big question is..will they remove it or not? If they feel wavedashing being in brawl will effect the sales to causals (The vast majority of SSB players, I have no idea why people who play in tournies feel that there opinion has more weight than casuals; guess what your does not hold up against casual players. Of course if you were the majority then things whould change a bit).

If wavedashing gives stress to casuals in anyway shape or form (I mean it's going to be even more apparent now that Brawl is confirmed to have Wifi) Nintendo will take it out for the sake of them.

Now this isn't directly related but Fire Emblem Path of Radiance had it's manic mode removed (manic mode was a very very hard mode playthough of the game) for American release because alot of people in Japan complained about it's diffuculty, so the NOA decided to take it out and sub it with an easy mode instead.

Now that wavedashing has gained so much negative hype I could see Nintendo either removing it entirely or making perhaps a simple two button combo so "casuals" can do it.

-Knight
Casual players don't even know what wavedashing is. And again, you quoted my point but you didn't adress it. If Nintendo is worried about wifi casuals getting owned then they'd remove L-Canceling. I think we can agree that L-Canceling is (usually) more helpful than WDing. L-Canceling and WoPing, and FCs and hella other stuff would cause stress, and they won't remove it.

It's not like casual players won't buy the game because wavedashing is in the game. Seriously, that doesn't make any sense.

I mean casual players don't know what it is. And even if a friend told them that they were getting owned by WDing (which doesn't even make sense...) the casual fried would eiether say...

"That's you but I'll beat anyone, I was hella good at Melee!"

"I just won't play online unless I'm playing cool people like us"

Moreover, the people that WD won't be playing in FFAs which most casual players play.
 

The Hypnotist

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LOL Wavedashing IS a two button combo. Anyone who spends thirty minutes developing the muscle memory can learn it.

What's the big fuss over wave-dashing? Why is it that so many people hate it so much? Why is it viewed as this game-breaking technique? I really don't ****ing get it!

It is infinitely helpful to ANYONE'S game. No matter what character you main. Hell, I remember when I was posting on the Peach boards and I mentioned how bad her wavedash was(because is it [mark mcdonald]TERRIBLE[/mark mcdonald]) and people there jumped on me, mentioning how useful it was to her game for spacing, etc. If peach can get use out of wave-dashing, ANYONE can. What's so terrible about wave-dashing again? It helps EVERYONE.

About a year ago, I was playing one of my friends. My Ice Climbers 3 stocked his Link. He said that he hope wave-dashing would be removed becaause it breaks the balance of the game. A few monthes later, He wants to learn how to wavedash. ....

I love how people mention pros who DON'T wavedash, like Aniki and .....and.... uhhhh... who else? These people are like the ones sayign that tiers don't exist because of players like Gimpyfish and Taj(who uses MArth and Fox in tournies BTW). It's a freakign lame argument and I wish people would stop with them.

The usual argument that I see is, "IT WASN'T INTENDED BY THE DEVELOPERS!!". LEt's go back to Smash 64. Z-cancelling wasn't intended. Ledge-hopping wasn't intended, Double Jump-cancelling wasn't intended. All beneficial and they all made it into melee. Also, Float-cancellign wasn't intended. Edge-cancelling wasn't intended. Foxtrotting wasn't intended. Dash-dancing wasn't intended. I'm sure that pivotting wasn't intended. I could go on forever. If we're gonna take things out because they weren't intended by the developers, Smash Bros would be the most depth-less, garbage excuse for a fighting game ever. Then what? NO ONE would buy the game.

Another argument is that other characters can't do it as well as others. DIFFEREBNT CHARACTERS HAVE DIFFERENT ATTRIBUTES. Bowser's L-cancelled aerials aren't as quick as Pichu's. Ness's U smash isn't as powerful as ANYONE'S Usmash. How about we all just use the same characters if you're gonna say that?

Another example of how wave-dashing "breask the game" is "Look at the Ice Climbers position on the tier list. My response to that is "LOOK AT LUIGI AND MEWTWO'S POSITION ON THE TIER LIST". Mewtwo's WD is BARELY worse than IC's. Oh shi-, he's bottom tier. Luigi has the best wave-dash in the game. He's lower than IC. IC is in 7th place(which IMO is a litte high anyways) because they are legitimately good characters and with techniques like desynching, they have hella potential. Not because they slide far. PEach is 5th place and she has one of the worst WDs in the game.

The most recent one that I've seen is "We have enough defensive manuevers, why add another? WHY NOT? Some characters like GaW have overall ****ty defensive options(bad sheild, roll, AND SPOTDODGE? ugh) He needs something like wavedashing to help him be better balanced(His wave-dash is actually pretty good too. ^_^). The more defensive options, the better.

Also, there's the "What about the casual market? Wave-dahsing will scare them away when they get 4 stocked on Wifi!". Players skilled enough to 4stock players with WD will 4stock them without it. We will appear to be moving at the speed of light anyways will all of our shuffles and cancels. The only way that Nintendo will make it so that casuals stand a chance against us would be to removed ALL adv tech. Refer to my 6th paragraph to know how THAT would turn out.

I'm not trying to insuld that Anti-WD people. It's not the Be-all-end-all of adv-tech. I really just cant wrap my head around why people would hate something beneficial to everyone's game.


TL:DR? Wave-dashing is good. It should stay. Need proof? MArio Kart. Snaking still lives.
QFT for the most part. Edit it so it doesn't sound like a rant and fix the typos, but still QFT.
 

The Hypnotist

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Because developers hate when people do this. By discovering wavedashing, you essentually ruin what they make. Now, what they worked hard on is manipulated and skewered. By doing this, you find fault in the game. So, next time, they try and take it out as to "fix a mistake" and keep the game to be played how it was originally intended. I know all you "pros" will say "Oh, we can play as we like. That's how Smash is" but I sure as hell know that it was not the developer's original intent to have wavedashing be manipulated. Don't believe me. Look at Halo 3. BXR and BXB, two big conmpetative elements in Halo 2 are taken out. Sure, people like them, but developers hate it. Of course, if anyone has any info otherwise, bring it.
Not true, Nintendo loves the metagame and finds the way people wavedash interesting.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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Now the big question is..will they remove it or not? If they feel wavedashing being in brawl will effect the sales to causals (The vast majority of SSB players, I have no idea why people who play in tournies feel that there opinion has more weight than casuals; guess what your does not hold up against casual players. Of course if you were the majority then things whould change a bit).
Back in the day, (NES, SNES, some 64, Playstation, others)

Most games were very hard to beat, most NES games take dedication, such as ghouls and ghosts. Snes isnt overly difficult, but it takes some finesse to be able to master some of its fine games.

Now adays its all ''Money money money, people are lazy and don't want to spend time getting good they just want to mindlessly wave their arms at their tv and play tennis''

I don't agree with it, nintendo has gone awry in that area. And the sad thing Id have to agree that brawl definatly has this ''noob friendly'' look. But the way I see it Ill always have melee to play since Im not quitting it for brawl even if I like brawl. So meh, few more months and Ill see whats going on in brawl I suppose.

Speed skater basically summarized every arguments for wavedashing ive posted here since february, of course in his own words.

Fine job man, concise, true, and biting.
 
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just wanted to say that the last part is kind of a weak argument:
though i agree either way, i dont think they would care too much if Wavedashing left. they took out BXR in Halo 3 and a lot of people used that didnt they? just saying, but awesome i think yer pro for Wavedashing.
also, for some of the people who said Diagonal Air-Dodging, i agree but who's to say the Diagonal part may come back? although, the Sliding with Snake and Wario is intriguing, it could be one of those new techniques for Brawl (like Crawling; which will do what exactly?)

ok, now that im done being so pessimistic:

Return of Wavedasing 4 Brawl
 

SubparSmashBrother

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There are more people that know about wavedashing and use/tolerate it than those who know about it and don't use/tolerate it, therefore it would be stupid of Nintendo to go out of their way to remove something if it just upsets more fans than it pleases.
 

Wurmtoken

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1. It looks like Wario is simply landing then walking: the video is blurry and Wario's animations are odd to begin with (watching the videos on the site its almost like he skips movements and goes straight to the next pose).
2/4. It would be very easy for Nintendo to clean up the landing animation when doing an air-dodge into the ground (and therefore stopping the movement that wavedashing uses). WDing is not a needed mechanic.
3. Was wavedashing a standard move before the release of the PAL version? The game designers may simply not have known about it, or if they did, they might not have known it would become such a widespreed tactic.
5. Removing wavedashing removes an animation glitch that allows players to 1) move faster then their character was designed to move 2) back away from the opponent and counter attack without losing seconds on the turn animation( an intended animation and limitation I might add) and 3) Gets rid of a mechanic that gives higher level players a distinct advantage over those who simply can't do it or can't fit it into their attack style.

ps. I'm not really against wavedashing but man do I love debates :)
 

Red Exodus

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I wouldn't be surprised if all AT were removed, Nintendo sold out. They will do whatever makes money and if that means making brawl so easy a that a guy that bought the game yesterday can beat someone that has been playing for months then that's what they'll do.

They're already planning to do that with Mario Kart Wii, Reggie said something along those lines himself.
 

Jackal478

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Im a luigi player and I implement wavedashing but i seriously wouldn't mind it leaving, beings luigi's just gonna be such a different character when Brawl comes around
 

thecatinthehat

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just realized something with the wii-mote....it has no analog buttons.... therefore no analog shield button.
wouldnt that, in essence make WD'ing way easier. instead of jamming your finger down on the shield button, all you have to do is tap the button. just a thought.
 

Vortok

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I wouldn't be surprised if all AT were removed, Nintendo sold out. They will do whatever makes money and if that means making brawl so easy a that a guy that bought the game yesterday can beat someone that has been playing for months then that's what they'll do.

They're already planning to do that with Mario Kart Wii, Reggie said something along those lines himself.
Mario Kart is geared to give the people in last place a chance to stay in the race, because the further back you are the better items you get. The series has always been like that.

In Smash Brothers, we also have items. Many people say that they take a lot of skill out of the game and make it more random... thus, someone that hasn't been playing very long has a decent chance against an average, veteran player.

I actually don't mind items from time to time, but that seems to be the prevailing thought.

So don't worry.... you can still turn items off (ok, not confirmed but we all know you'll be able to) and make it more of a "skill" game, just like before.
 

thesage

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I don't think people realize that without WD'ing the gap between competitive and non-competive players would be MUCH larger. People would have to know pivoting and Luigi would actually deserve to be in low tier.

BTW, pivoting is when you dash dance and during certain frames of the dd your character is actually standing up. This is best seen with Marth and Sheik's dd. You'd have to learn the timing for that which is MUCH harder than WD'ing. Plus Marth is given a stronger advantage because it would be hard to fake him out and bait him. Who honestly wants that ****.
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

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Odd, because it seems from what I've heard of WDing, it is part of the gap between competitive/non competitive. I'd also include L-cancel, but everyone and their brother on this forum would slaughter me verbally unmercifully. L-cancel is sort of the holy grail "glass celing" for competitive players.
 
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