Another Pro Wavedashing Thread (It's a good ones)

[The Hypnotist]

Just a bunch of reasons why I think wavedashing will be in Brawl, I would find it virtually impossible to seriously refute all of my points... Where should I start?

1. First there's this... I think MOST of us here can agree that this is wavelanding or at least some type of sliding. Physics similar to wavedashing. This is almost a dead give away.

2. Then there's the pictures of the air dodging. We've nearly
all seen them. We all know that wavedashing is essentially a air dodge into the ground. Without WDing we'd fall through the stage. Now if there was no wavedashing then Crouch Canceling would be BROKEN. Imagine not moving while crounching if you're hit. Here are a few examples.

3. Wavedasing was in Melee and was not taken out. Now even if you don't think this I'm sure you know wavedashing is the PAL version. There's clearly a reason they removed/reduced things in PAL version such as chain throwing but didn't change the wavedash at all.

4. They would have to change the physics engine which (along time ago) they said they wouldn't, this would take longer rather than just leaving it in.

5. More over, Nintendo knows that there are thousands of fans that love to wavedash and Nintendo does not want to disappoint them. Seriously what does removing wavedashing even accomplish? Nintendo have watch professional players play Smash and they find the metagame very interesting, including wavedashing. Would they really want to remove something interesting?

Name a good reason for NINTENDO to remove wavedashing? If your going to say because it's cheap, please explain how it's cheap.

Let the discussion begin (again). Please keep criticizing to a minimum, does it really get anything acomplished.

 

[blayde_axel]

I'm not sure if this adds anything, but in the new video, we see Snake sliding pretty far when Mario hits him with an aerial... which proves at least that sliding is confirmed. Which most likely means airdodging diagonally is going to result in sliding again. Which means, OMG WAVEDASHING CONFIRMED!

 

[The Hypnotist]

Exactly, wavedashing is virtually inevitable .

 

[Igneous42]

the main point I want to counter is 5. There is one big reason. Casuals, more and more we've seen Nintendo lean towards casual gaming. Sure it sucks for the hardcore but face the facts. More and more their making games easier for n00bs and vets to play on even ground. Wave dashing and other advanced tech is one of the things that separates vets from n00bs in smash. With this being online with no kind of ranking there is a good chance they will try to find ways to make it so most people are on even playing grounds. Sorry to say but tourney players don't make up the majority of the gaming market or smash players. They aren't making this game for you tourney players they are making it for everyone.

Another reason is simplicity. The entire point of smash is an easy to pick up game that can be taken very far. Having advanced techs takes away that original goal. I mean why else would all characters special be assigned to the exact same buttons. Really once you know one character in smash you basically have enough knowledge to play any (not do well or win but you can play them). Other fighters every character is different in how they play and where their combos are assigned. Nintendo didn't want that in smash they wanted simplicity, by doing so they made the game more about strategy and how you used your char than random button mashing and reflex fighting.

 

[The Hypnotist]

You make good points but you must remember that wavedashing isn't mandatory. And removing wavedashing will not close the professional game from the casual game. It's not like a newb can't play smash because wavedashing is in the game, most newbs don't know what wavedashing is.

 

[Igneous42]

You make good points but you must remember that wavedashing isn't mandatory. And removing wavedashing will not close the professional game from the casual game. It's not like a newb can't play smash because wavedashing is in the game, most newbs don't know what wavedashing is.

true, but removing it would close the gap a bit. Either way I don't care much. I only played melee for fun so never did much with wave dashing (though I can do it) . If it's in brawl and important as it is to melee I'll get good at it (I want to play brawl more competitively then I did melee) if not I won't care.

Whether or not wave dashing (and advanced techs in general) are in won't make or break this game.

BTW random question but should wave dashing be spelled as one word or two?

 

[The Hypnotist]

One word if I'm not mistaken. Or you can just say WD.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

What the hell IS wave dashing...Is it air dodge that leads into a run when you touch the ground or something?

 

[NES n00b]

What the hell IS wave dashing...Is it air dodge that leads into a run when you touch the ground or something?

You slide on the ground and the distance depends on the angle of the air dodge, the traction of the character, and how much momentum from the airdodge you had (how far you air dodged from the air). While sliding, you are in a landing animation so after the ten frame lag you can do stuff out of it and you can go backwards while facing foward. So yeah, that's it. The magical win move.

 

[strider43]

I think they try to make the game more realistic by making sliding possible, and weight class and fall speed all that good stuff. But if it was possible to evade onto the ground, tell me, wouldn't you get a nice shock through your legs? Ah yes, a nice line of molten magma pain going right up your very shins. Wavelanding should have some delay on characters, like Young link wavedashing - down tilt.

 

[Angrylobster]

the main point I want to counter is 5. There is one big reason. Casuals, more and more we've seen Nintendo lean towards casual gaming. Sure it sucks for the hardcore but face the facts. More and more their making games easier for n00bs and vets to play on even ground. Wave dashing and other advanced tech is one of the things that separates vets from n00bs in smash. With this being online with no kind of ranking there is a good chance they will try to find ways to make it so most people are on even playing grounds. Sorry to say but tourney players don't make up the majority of the gaming market or smash players. They aren't making this game for you tourney players they are making it for everyone.

Another reason is simplicity. The entire point of smash is an easy to pick up game that can be taken very far. Having advanced techs takes away that original goal. I mean why else would all characters special be assigned to the exact same buttons. Really once you know one character in smash you basically have enough knowledge to play any (not do well or win but you can play them). Other fighters every character is different in how they play and where their combos are assigned. Nintendo didn't want that in smash they wanted simplicity, by doing so they made the game more about strategy and how you used your char than random button mashing and reflex fighting.

While they are making the games more accesible, they still leave in aspects of higher levels of play in their games, just look at Mario Kart: DD.

 

[Vortok]

Here's a thought.

What happens when you f up a Wave Dash because you dodge too late?

You Air Dodge into the ground, but you get zero traction (or if you don't REALLY screw up, you get a triangle jump, which also doesn't slide). You're at ground level, but you have to wait for the entire air dodge to end, instead of it canceling into a slide that we call wavedashing. Wouldn't be that hard to make it so that an Air Dodge always last the full duration, thus killing wavedashing while still keeping traction/sliding/air dodging.


I'm all for wavedashing, don't think it breaks the game, and personally think it'll still be in Brawl. However, the reasoning (by many people in general) on some points is flawed. The "some things were changed in the PAL" version is an excellent point, though. The counter-point would be that they've had more time to examine it's impact since then, but meh.

 

[vesperview]

I couldn't care less for wavedashing... I don't think it is what makes the game good like many people claim it to be. I've been able to do it a couple of times but I don't rely on it, and you just stole all of the ideas from the previous wavedashing thread that was made today so I don't think your thread is all that.

 

[Finn Macool]

Wavedashing is basically an abuse of the physics engine so they might have mada an "official" way to perform something the same as wavedashing, that would let the pros still use it but would be easier for newbs to learn

 

[The Hypnotist]

Just FTR although wavedashing isn't broken it's no a joke.

Wavedashing allows you to move backwards without changing direction while attacking and moving into an edge hog. It also allows many characters to move fast than if they were to run and it allows you to move and grab at the same time. It's kind of a big deal. Think where the ICs would be on the Melee Tier List without WDing.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

i do belive this is the best wavedashing in brawl thread yet

if you want to put an image up,just use img code

finn macool,its not abuse of the physics engine

it was discovered by accident,as well as that it DOES help in game

so do all of the other advanced tech's


Orge Link is true though,please just lock this thread now.there are way to many =/

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

*cries*

WHY??? Why do these pointless WD threads keep popping up! NOTHING HAS BEEN PROVEN/DISPROVEN!!! Stop acting like it's there/not there!!! We'll all figure it out when the game comes out, until then please, for the sake of God and Jesus Christ Almighty, STOP THE WD THREADS!!

*sobs some more*

 

[vesperview]

Don't expect wavedashing to appear on the dojo anytime.

 

[PBalfredo]

In response to the topic creator's first point, I believe in that video Wario is going straight into his running animation after landing. It just looks like he's sliding because of his G&W-style two frame running animation - you don't see his legs move to the next 'frame' before Meta Knight comes up and smacks him. I've heard other people claim that wavedashing is proven in other videos, but with Kirby or Meta Knight or by so-and-so, etc. I believe a lot of people just see what they want to see.

I echo a lot of Igneous42's post about how wavedashing is the anti-thesis to Smash Bros' "Easy to learn, hard to master' montra. Especially since the title is now going online, I'm sure Nintendo is aiming to make this game as accessible as possible to all customers. It's surreal that the game featuring the simplicity of two buttons for all of your attacks would also be home of wavedashing which is a complex and tricky exploit to pull off.

And I used the term exploit purposefully. All wavedashing is, is a beneficial exploit of the physics of air dodging. I'm not sure why this exploit has earned an air of legitimacy when exploits in other games, like ninja flipping in Gears of War, is seen as unfair tricks that go against the intended purpose of the game to be an accessible and fair fighter.

You might be saying, "Hey now, PBalfredo, if they made Wavedashing a legitimate move, there wouldn't be any problem 'cause then everyone could do it." Imagine yourself as the game designer and ask yourself, aside from catering to the tourny players, why would you? Characters already have shielding, sidestepping and rolling as their arsenal of defensive moves. Those move are all balanced by their pros and cons of how each maneuver keeps the player safe in some situations, and leaves them vulnerable in others. Why throw all of this away with wavedashing, which is virtually a maneuver without major fault. Then wavedashing becomes the dominate strategy above others, especially rolling. Not only that but wavedashing opens the door for other shenanigns such as chain throwing, edge hogging, and waveshining

 

[ksadkiller]

dude u totally convinced me. wavedashing HAS to be in brawl

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

In response to the topic creator's first point, I believe in that video Wario is going straight into his running animation after landing. It just looks like he's sliding because of his G&W-style two frame running animation - you don't see his legs move to the next 'frame' before Meta Knight comes up and smacks him. I've heard other people claim that wavedashing is proven in other videos, but with Kirby or Meta Knight or by so-and-so, etc. I believe a lot of people just see what they want to see.

I echo a lot of Igneous42's post about how wavedashing is the anti-thesis to Smash Bros' "Easy to learn, hard to master' montra. Especially since the title is now going online, I'm sure Nintendo is aiming to make this game as accessible as possible to all customers. It's surreal that the game featuring the simplicity of two buttons for all of your attacks would also be home of wavedashing which is a complex and tricky exploit to pull off.

And I used the term exploit purposefully. All wavedashing is, is a beneficial exploit of the physics of air dodging. I'm not sure why this exploit has earned an air of legitimacy when exploits in other games, like ninja flipping in Gears of War, is seen as unfair tricks that go against the intended purpose of the game to be an accessible and fair fighter.

You might be saying, "Hey now, PBalfredo, if they made Wavedashing a legitimate move, there wouldn't be any problem 'cause then everyone could do it." Imagine yourself as the game designer and ask yourself, aside from catering to the tourny players, why would you? Characters already have shielding, sidestepping and rolling as their arsenal of defensive moves. Those move are all balanced by their pros and cons of how each maneuver keeps the player safe in some situations, and leaves them vulnerable in others. Why throw all of this away with wavedashing, which is virtually a maneuver without major fault. Then wavedashing becomes the dominate strategy above others, especially rolling. Not only that but wavedashing opens the door for other shenanigns such as chain throwing, edge hogging, and waveshining

Quoted for the mutha-freaking truth. Dear god I wish I could put this entire post into my siggy...

 

[NES n00b]

Wavedashing has alot fault. When you do it, you have a ten frame lag where you are commited to the wavedash. You might as well ask for Dash Dancing to be removed since it makes it possible to move faster, thus, reducing the need for sheilds and the like. This in turn would mean that you can't change directions fast and you don't have a burst of speed in the beginning which would make the game alot slower. You can do everything you said besides waveshining without wavedashing (Luigi can do a chain grab by wavedashing only since he is too slow and slippery, but it does less damage than all other chain grabs).

All you would do is make characters like ICs and Luigi worse while making characters who dash dance and don't use wavedash like CF better. =/ To sum it up, wavedashing can be punished and cannot be abused unless you use it to move around with characters like Luigi. People complain about that instead of shffling because that is what is easiest to see and shffling is definitely not a glitch.

If I was a developer, I would leave it in. 1. Saves money to not put in a special code to keep wavedashing from working. 2. Tourney people will be happy. 3. Casuals don't give a **** because they don't know **** about it. So yeah. . . .

 

[lollerskater]

My guess would be that IF wavedashing is in Brawl, it will at the very least be made obsolete by other advanced techniques that aren't as difficult to do or as unnecessarily complicated (aka INTENDED techniques).

People seem to be forgetting that Brawl is a SEQUEL. We shouldn't be having such arguments over a single advanced technique because the game as a whole is supposed to become deeper and more skill-based. That's how fighting game sequels work!

Saying "What reason does Sakurai have for removing wavedashing?" is a completely wrong mindset to have. We're supposed to EXPECT an overall change in the fighting mechanics and we should HOPE that wavedashing will become obsolete as Smash increases in depth.

 

[PBalfredo]

If I was a developer, I would leave it in. 1. Saves money to not put in a special code to keep wavedashing from working. 2. Tourney people will be happy. 3. Casuals don't give a **** because they don't know **** about it. So yeah. . . .

Casuals will care very much because with Brawl going online all of the tourny players will be facing off against the casual stay-at-home, play-with-friends variety. When logging on to a Play with Anyone match means getting waveshined off the edge in seven seconds, it will turn off a lot of players.

 

[Aryman]

We don't even know if you can air-dodge in a direction yet. Someone close this.

 

[*/ShadowFlare\*]

can we please just STOP debating this already?
there is no such MOVE called a wavedash,
its a glitch of sorts,
its not like the dev team new people were gonna be AIR DODGING into the ground to slide around l33t status or nothin..
dont be that ignorant to believe they purposely implemented something like that and never said anything about it....><
if air dodges are in the game (and why wouldnt they be?) you can bet the house on wavedashes to follow

disprove me -_-

 

[red stone]

people who don't want it in brawl are the people that don't know how to use it.

 

[Kelexo]

Name a good reason for NINTENDO to remove wavedashing?

They won't.

Be Sakurai will.

Why? Because he's slowing down the gameplay a touch. That means less "1,000 HOURS OF TRAINING PIN-POINT-ACCURACY" techniques.

 

[.::Link::.]

In response to the topic creator's first point, I believe in that video Wario is going straight into his running animation after landing. It just looks like he's sliding because of his G&W-style two frame running animation - you don't see his legs move to the next 'frame' before Meta Knight comes up and smacks him. I've heard other people claim that wavedashing is proven in other videos, but with Kirby or Meta Knight or by so-and-so, etc. I believe a lot of people just see what they want to see.

I echo a lot of Igneous42's post about how wavedashing is the anti-thesis to Smash Bros' "Easy to learn, hard to master' montra. Especially since the title is now going online, I'm sure Nintendo is aiming to make this game as accessible as possible to all customers. It's surreal that the game featuring the simplicity of two buttons for all of your attacks would also be home of wavedashing which is a complex and tricky exploit to pull off.

And I used the term exploit purposefully. All wavedashing is, is a beneficial exploit of the physics of air dodging. I'm not sure why this exploit has earned an air of legitimacy when exploits in other games, like ninja flipping in Gears of War, is seen as unfair tricks that go against the intended purpose of the game to be an accessible and fair fighter.

You might be saying, "Hey now, PBalfredo, if they made Wavedashing a legitimate move, there wouldn't be any problem 'cause then everyone could do it." Imagine yourself as the game designer and ask yourself, aside from catering to the tourny players, why would you? Characters already have shielding, sidestepping and rolling as their arsenal of defensive moves. Those move are all balanced by their pros and cons of how each maneuver keeps the player safe in some situations, and leaves them vulnerable in others. Why throw all of this away with wavedashing, which is virtually a maneuver without major fault. Then wavedashing becomes the dominate strategy above others, especially rolling. Not only that but wavedashing opens the door for other shenanigns such as chain throwing, edge hogging, and waveshining

Has anyone in the history of the world ever been more right? I think not.....quoted for truth beyond Chuck Norris standards.

-Link-

 

[The Hypnotist]

*cries*

WHY??? Why do these pointless WD threads keep popping up! NOTHING HAS BEEN PROVEN/DISPROVEN!!! Stop acting like it's there/not there!!! We'll all figure it out when the game comes out, until then please, for the sake of God and Jesus Christ Almighty, STOP THE WD THREADS!!

*sobs some more*

You need to actually read the original post and actually attempt to refute all the points, it's very difficult, if even possible.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Casuals will care very much because with Brawl going online all of the tourny players will be facing off against the casual stay-at-home, play-with-friends variety. When logging on to a Play with Anyone match means getting waveshined off the edge in seven seconds, it will turn off a lot of players.

There's too many techniques, removing wavedashing wouldn't help at all, I'd still own people with my Peach. You'd have to kill SHLing (that one will be FUN online), Float Cancels, even L-Cancels and SHUFFLING, and wall of pains, and... Besides Nintendo likes the metagame.

 

[Rash]

My only problem with the wavedash is that it kills the essence of Smash Brothers. That's why I try to find alternatives to using it in combat. Otherwise, I'm fine with the use of the move among the competitive players. There's no reason not to be content with what the competitive players like. If they want to turn Smash Brothers into a game of speed and reflexes and bring it to the same level as a generic fighting game like Street Fighter, so be it.

Christ. Out of everyone, anti-wavedash or pro-wavedash, some of you just really need to get off your high horses about this whole thing. It's starting to get annoying.

 

[Mikezor]

My only problem with that gif on the first page is that Wario lands on a slanted surface, this could just be sliding down it.

 

[lukintosh]

My only problem with that gif on the first page is that Wario lands on a slanted surface, this could just be sliding down it.

Not really, unless the physics has been changed. This is a good explaination.

 

[raphtmarqui]

It would be a big mistake for them to forcefully remove wavedashing. However, at the end of the day even if it wasnt in the game would still be good.

 

[Gilgamesh]

1. It doesn't have to be wavedashing at all, it's a simple dash. We don't know how Wario will play, if you have played any of his GBA games you know he can start dashing in the air, land and keep doing his dash attack. In fact the animation shown seems exactly like that. It doesn't look like a wavedash at all.

2. Who says that airdodging will work exactly the same? I know, why would they change it, but what if they end up doing so? Perhaps an air dodge into the ground will not have the sliding effect this time (it could just stay there in the dodge animation, or cancel it into another animation). Muy point is that with these pictures alone we don't know exactly how airdodging will work and they could change it, for a number of reasons.

3. The previous answer applies here as well. Melee to PAL Melee is one thing, Melee to Brawl is another. While it's a good argument, it's still not definitive proof. If they took out chain throwing for the PAL conversion, they could perfectly follow that with wavedashing in the way to brawl. After all chain throwing IS allowed in high level play.

4. Doesn't make a lot of sense, this doesn't have that much to do with the physics engine, just with the way an airdodge works upon contact with the ground. It is a very small detail and could perfectly change in the transition.

5. For this last point, i must admit that it's probably the best argument, and a very good question. Why would they do it? Well, i could think of a couple reasons. Of course they don't prove anything and they aren't definitive, but that's precisely my point: nothing has thus far proven the return of WD'ing, nor has anything suggested that they will remove it. For example, they could decide to remove an (admittedly beneficial) exploit and make us play as originally intended. I know this argument has been given like a million times and it's not very good either, but they could do it. You even said they removed Chain Throwing (i'm assuming you're right since i haven't played the PAL version), which i presume most high level players know and use to their advantage (for example, with the Ice Climbers)

So yeah, the "original gameplay" argument is not very conclusive, but it wouldn't be very surprising either. As a player who is neutral towards wavedashing (i know how to do it and i can make good use of it, while at the same time i find it looks ugly and makes battles look strange) i won't complain either if it returns or is removed, and i can't understand why both sides think they have definitive proof to support their opinion. We don't know for sure.

At least the Original Post is well explained and thought, what i'm getting sick of is idiots saying either "those who don't like wavedashing are those who can't use it lol" or "wavedashing is an evil exploit! it takes away the "honor" of the game!!! lol!". Both are the worst examples of each side.

 

[A Diamond For Disease]

It will be nice if WD returns, and it looks like it will, but i won't be boycotting this game if there is no WD that's just crazy talk.

 

[Kirby knight]

If I was a developer, I would leave it in. 1. Saves money to not put in a special code to keep wavedashing from working. 2. Tourney people will be happy. 3. Casuals don't give a **** because they don't know **** about it. So yeah. . . .

There's too many techniques, removing wavedashing wouldn't help at all, I'd still own people with my Peach. You'd have to kill SHLing (that one will be FUN online), Float Cancels, even L-Cancels and SHUFFLING, and wall of pains, and... Besides Nintendo likes the metagame.

Now I really don't care for Wavedashing returning or not but I just wanted to say a few things because this Wavedashing topic seems alot better than the previous ones.

Now 1st and formost people have to remember the target audience. Those so called "casuals". You cannot discount the influence they have when Ninteno is making a game for them. There are many many many Advance techs but tell me which is the most well known? Most talked about? (If you don't know it's wavedashing -_-).

If the people who used wavedashing didn't constanstly rub it in casuals faces they I wouldn't think they'd be ***** about it like they do now. (L-Cancels have never gotten the same backlash that wavedashing has). Nintendo obviously has seen what wavedashing is. Now the big question is..will they remove it or not? If they feel wavedashing being in brawl will effect the sales to causals (The vast majority of SSB players, I have no idea why people who play in tournies feel that there opinion has more weight than casuals; guess what your does not hold up against casual players. Of course if you were the majority then things whould change a bit).

If wavedashing gives stress to casuals in anyway shape or form (I mean it's going to be even more apparent now that Brawl is confirmed to have Wifi) Nintendo will take it out for the sake of them.

Now this isn't directly related but Fire Emblem Path of Radiance had it's manic mode removed (manic mode was a very very hard mode playthough of the game) for American release because alot of people in Japan complained about it's diffuculty, so the NOA decided to take it out and sub it with an easy mode instead.

Now that wavedashing has gained so much negative hype I could see Nintendo either removing it entirely or making perhaps a simple two button combo so "casuals" can do it.

-Knight

 

[Silent Mike]

You know, it's entirely possible that, if you airdodge into the ground, they can just keep you in that "airdodge" animation, only it'll be against the ground. Maybe it'll be like if you airdodged against the wall in melee, you didn't "bump" into it or anything, you just remained in the airdodge animation, only not moving as far. It could be the same way for the ground now.

COULD be.

 

[reelbigfishstix9]

I understand how people think they might remove it because casual players find it stressful when tourney players do, but most of the casual players probably play with other casual players. at least from where i'm from. I use some advanced techs and try to get better at them, but most of the people i know that play are casual players. I don't think any of them have played a tourney player or anything and i doubt they ever will (unless of course they decide to try and go to a tournement). I think the casual players that actually have a problem with Wavedashing are a minority just like the ones who use wavedashing. Or this might just be where I live who knows.