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Another idiot with a retro fangame of sorts.

Khao

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
1,448
Location
Lying about my country.
Ever wondered what Smash would be like if every character stayed 100% accurate to their original canon counterparts? Their own mechanics. Their own controls. Their own physics. Even their own victory conditions. What would the game be like? Would it be a good idea? Wouldn't it be impossible to balance? Would it even work?

To tell the truth, I have no freaking idea, but I'm making a game to find out.

But wait, don't start rolling your eyes yet! I wouldn't be posting anything if I didn't have anything to show already!

Not only have I definitely made some progress on this thing:



But I have an actual working demo, playable on browser (two-player and keyboard-only for the moment):
UPDATE 22-10-2016
New version added, featuring CPU players. Browser versions are dead, download required.
https://www.mediafire.com/?rtbfme2b1m11w6o

The demo contains three characters and a stage, being Mario, Mega Man, Link, and Dr. Wily's Fortress. More characters and stages are coming!

So let's explain things a little bit. The idea here is to have these characters as an exact 1:1 replica of how they play in their own original games, and so far, I managed to do so. Both Mario, Link and Mega Man play exactly as you'd expect them to if you played each of their respective games. The physics were recreated perfectly thanks to frame-by-frame data I found throughout the internet, and they have their own mechanics found in their respective games rather than sharing an unified combat system, like you'd expect in any fighting game ever.

This means that unlike in Smash, you won't be building up damage percentages and knocking your foes off the stage.

Nope.

Let's take Mario. Forget about punching and kicking, or any kind of special moves. You have two abilities. You can run, and you can jump. Want to deal some damage? You're gonna have to stomp people. Always try to have the higher ground than your opponent, because your deadliest technique is falling. What? Where's the healthbar? Do you even Mario?! When you take damage, you become smaller. Take damage while small, you're dead! That means you gotta be pretty darn careful, because every single thing that hurts you instantly takes half your hit points, no matter how insignificant.

Mega Man? You jump and shoot, of course! Can't jump as high or move as fast as Mario. But ultimately, you won't need to. Having a Mega Buster means you can just snipe people from far away, and it can even be charged. I may also add sliding at some point (already have it coded somewhere, it's mostly a just a decision).

You can tell from the screenshots, but Link is based on his Adventure of Link appearance, since it's what fits this game the most (using Link from the first game would kind of work against the idea of this game, as I would most definitely have to change most mechanics for him to work). You get a sword to hit things from up close, a shield to block projectiles, and can even crouch to adjust your attacking/blocking height. Full health? You get sword beams! Also implemented are the jumping thrusts, but they'll most likely be removed due to being just a bit too overpowered (due to the nature of the game, it's completely impossible to reach a perfect balance, but I'd still like to get as close as possible).

And that's all I have for now. I have more characters planned for the future, such as Kirby, Samus, and even Marth (oh ho ho, I got some insane plans for that one and literally no one is even going to like it), and probably a few more extra features, like controller support.

For now, I'd really love to get some feedback on this. What do you think of this idea? Interested to see more? It's pretty obvious at the moment that Mega Man is a heck of a lot more powerful than Mario. Any ideas on how to improve that while keeping the original mechanics intact? (I'm heavily considering spawning Mario in a powered-up Fire Flower state, which would help with his two-point health system as well as giving him an extra attack).

Any character/stage ideas? I'm trying not to be too ambitious, because I'd rather have a simple but functional game than a bunch of ideas that are never going to be finished, but I'd still like to hear what others might want to see in a game like this. You may also notice that I have no title. Wouldn't mind hearing some suggestions.

So yeah, that's it for now. Hope somebody enjoys it!
 
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Yangfly Leone

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
48
I liked it, good luck with your project!

Well, you should add some spawning fire flowers or mushrooms to help balance more mario, perhaps you shoul make an stage for every character and each of them will fight better at his home stage, example: Mario stage spawns itens to help mario, megaman stage is just a flat box, nowhere to escape from his shots, link's stage having some hearts, kirby the M tomatoes. Thats just an idea though.
 
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Khao

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
1,448
Location
Lying about my country.
I actually considered that, but I'd rather keep every character fully playable in every stage. Giving Mario exclusive help in his own stage just means he's not fighting to his full potential in every other stage. If every character has a clear advantage in X stage, the game ends up being about stage picking instead of being about the characters. So I'd rather improve or add things inherent to each character than just give them advantage through external means.

Besides, if I do end up adding in-stage powerups, it might be more fun to let every character use them!

Still, thanks for the idea. Glad you liked it!
 

ElViejoZunY

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 6, 2014
Messages
85
Location
Cuidad Autónoma de Buenos Aires
It sounds really stupid and crazy, but I like this kind of crazy idea, It would be fun and intresting to play (at least the first time). I don´t care if it´s balanced or not (spoiler: probably not) as long as the results are closest as possible of the real answer, that probably we will never get, but it worth the effort
 

Khao

Smash Lord
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Mar 7, 2014
Messages
1,448
Location
Lying about my country.
It sounds really stupid and crazy, but I like this kind of crazy idea, It would be fun and intresting to play (at least the first time). I don´t care if it´s balanced or not (spoiler: probably not) as long as the results are closest as possible of the real answer, that probably we will never get, but it worth the effort
Exactly!

I do plan on making this as balanced as possible, but I also don't want that to conflict with the original concept of having characters as authentic as they can be. Still, there's definitely some arbitrary things in here that can be adjusted to push things in the "fair" direction (such as the amount of damage every move deals. Like, if all else fails, I can easily make it so Mario can kill every other character with a single jump).

But enough talk, I have a new version to share, containing some of the stuff I was talking about in the opening post.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84160225/Smash2/index.html

Link has been added to the game now! Just like mentioned above, he's exactly as he appears in Zelda 2, he can stab with his sword, deflect certain attacks with his shield, jump, and crouch to attack or block at a lower height, and even shoot sword beams when at full health. He has no magic or special abilities, however. He's basically in the exact same state he starts his original game in, but even like this, he seems to be pretty powerful!

Also, of course, now that the game has three characters, a character selection screen was absolutely needed. So you can now choose your characters before starting, and even pick duplicates. Pitting a character against itself is probably about the only way this game can achieve something that resembles balance, so it can be pretty fun actually. In a way, you could see what it would've been like if these games had a VS mode back in the day.

Next in line is a stage selection, followed by controller support, followed by CPU controlled characters. After that, I can start considering adding more characters.
 

Yangfly Leone

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
48
Some feedback from your new demo, Link has some real defense hu? 4 Megaman's Shots to deplete just one square from his life bar. But that is balanced by the fact his sword strikes removes only 2 from mega's life bar. Mario takes 3 jumps on him to kill, while link only need to attack him 2 time. ut nice work so far, keep it up.
 

Khao

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
1,448
Location
Lying about my country.
Welp, I haven't updated this in a while!

Been quite busy with a ton of other stuff IRL, but I'm back with a small update to this game. Gonna have to download the newest version, though, as Dropbox no longer supports displaying HTML5 files in the browser.

https://www.mediafire.com/?rtbfme2b1m11w6o

So what's new? CPU players!

The AI is not exactly complex or creative, but it'll make the game a bit more fun to play alone. For obvious reasons, every character has their own AI system, so you can check them all out and try different combinations. You can even set two CPUs against eachother and make illegal bets with your friends!

I haven't gotten around stage selection, because to be honest, it's too much of a hazzle to make the AI actually work in other stages at the moment. So I'll just jump into creating a new character right away. Already have an idea that could prove to be interesting, and would also be pretty simple from the programming side of things.
 
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Khao

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
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Location
Lying about my country.
Could yo do something to play it in full screen or in a bigger window than the actual?
Alt+Enter goes to fullscreen at any time. Just don't do it while setting up your controls, or those keys will get registered as buttons.

Also, that thing I said in my previous post? That I was gonna create a new character that was super easy to program?

Forget that, it was so easy it was actually boring.

So I started working on something that's proving to be quite a bit more challenging to create, and will also be...Pretty interesting to play. And if not, definitely confusing.



How the heck does that even work, you're wondering?

I'm not going to lie. I have no idea. I'm literally just programming a single-character Fire Emblem game inside this thing and hoping the whole thing makes sense once I'm done.

And when I say I'm literally just programming a single-character Fire Emblem game, I actually freaking mean it. I had the whole level-up system coded in, with stat generation included and everything before I realized that Marth will most likely never gain enough experience in a single fight to level up. Was it worth it? **** no, but hey, at least I had fun.
 
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Pikifan4IndigoCobra57

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Add items and make it so they spawn like how they normally would in the game the stage is based off of and make certain items only appear when certain characters are in play.
 

Khao

Smash Lord
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Mar 7, 2014
Messages
1,448
Location
Lying about my country.
Add items and make it so they spawn like how they normally would in the game the stage is based off of and make certain items only appear when certain characters are in play.
I'll think about it. I like the idea of characters having items available, but like I said in a post above, I don't want characters to have such heavy advantages in their own stages. If Mario can pick up mushrooms, he should be able to do so in every single stage in the game, not just his own. Otherwise, the game just becomes about stage-picking rather than actually playing the character.

But hey, about progress. I have Marth more or less figured out already.

Technically speaking, he works perfectly already, have a movement system, turns, item management, stats, level ups, combat, proper damage/hit/dodge/critical formulas. The difficult part was really figuring out how to deal with non-Marth characters when it comes to combat. I settled for giving every character some arbitrary Fire Emblem stats, which is technically the only thing Marth needs to get up close and attack. The only thing I have to do now is making non-Marth characters able to attack Marth in their own turn, and it'll all be good to go.

Also making his portrait on the side. Feel like there's still something... "off" about it, but I can't quite say what's the problem.



EDIT:

Well, looks like I'm getting closer.



The tiara was way too low, which completely messed up the details on the rest of the hair. And his face was... kind of stretched out diagonally.

Also here's my first attempt at this thing just for fun, lol, wtf was I thinking haha.

 
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Pikifan4IndigoCobra57

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What I meant was that In the Mario Stage, If Any character hits a question Block, they get an item from their game. I assume A Zelda stage would have openable chests for the items, and Mega Man stage would have no items as there is no way to obtain them. The items that appear depend on who is in play, so no Mario items when the match is between Link and Marth.
 

Khao

Smash Lord
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Lying about my country.
What I meant was that In the Mario Stage, If Any character hits a question Block, they get an item from their game. I assume A Zelda stage would have openable chests for the items, and Mega Man stage would have no items as there is no way to obtain them. The items that appear depend on who is in play, so no Mario items when the match is between Link and Marth.
That could work. Though I think it kinda sounds like alternate-mode material.
 

Khao

Smash Lord
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Lying about my country.
Marth progress! He's not ready quite yet, as there's some details missing and he completely lacks AI for the CPU. But he's working pretty well so far! Here's a video showing off how he fares fighting against Mega Man.


It's kinda rough, and completely unbalanced. But it's exactly the kind of crazy nonsense that I wanted when I first thought about this project.
 

Pikifan4IndigoCobra57

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Marth progress! He's not ready quite yet, as there's some details missing and he completely lacks AI for the CPU. But he's working pretty well so far! Here's a video showing off how he fares fighting against Mega Man.


It's kinda rough, and completely unbalanced. But it's exactly the kind of crazy nonsense that I wanted when I first thought about this project.

My god that is unbalanced. Awesome.

Imagine trying to add Ninten or something....
 
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RagnorokX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
63
How... how would this work with characters with different turn based systems?
 

Pikifan4IndigoCobra57

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I got an Idea, Have different Game modes for characters from different types of game. Such as The mode you have would be for characters from Platformers, and a mode with people from top down rpgs like Fire Emblem, Mother, Pokemon, or Zelda 1.
 

Khao

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How... how would this work with characters with different turn based systems?
I'm honestly not sure. Marth makes things "easy" because he's not static. Like, while he works within a turn-based system, he moves around the stage and still has to chase other characters. He still has to position himself in relation to others. He still has to be careful about his movement. He still exists in an actual specific place within the stage.

Someone from a Final Fantasy game would ironically be a lot more complicated due to being simpler. The character can't move. It doesn't exists "physically". Its position in the screen is completely meaningless because it's not a real position, real time characters can't position themselves in relation to the RPG character, and they can't avoid the attacks because the attacks are, again, not-physical but governed by statistics.

It suddenly becomes a battle between a 2D character that exists in an actual physical environment and a completely abstract entity that's borderline omnipresent. Mechanically speaking, turn-based RPG battles don't have "dimensions", and as such it's pretty much impossible for them to interact with bidimensional beings. Marth is different in that while he sends characters to a separate, more "abstract" screen when attacking, he still exists in the bidimensional plane whenever he's not attacking, and can freely move within it. Traditional RPG characters don't do that in a battle.

I initially thought it could work by having the RPG character start out as if it was in the map, moving in real time at the same time as the platformer characters, then entering an RPG battle when they come into contact with a regular character, which completely eliminates the... "non-dimensional" problem. That unfortunately opens up a whole new can of worms; Once the RPG battle starts, when does the RPG battle stop? Is it permanent? If so, does the non-RPG character still work in real time, or with the RPG character's mechanics? If it's not permanent, what's there to stop the RPG character from activating the RPG battle once again as soon as it's over? If they come into contact with Marth, will Marth attack automatically as if he's in a Fire Emblem battle, or will he have to move in his turn and attack creating a nightmarish scenario of a turn-based fight within a turn-based fight? And again, if he and other non-RPG characters have to move in the RPG battle, their positions become meaningless because they can't be compared to the RPG character's position.

The best solution is unfortunately at the same time the most boring one: Don't bother with turn-based, Final-Fantasy style RPG characters because they screw up everything. Turn based characters work, but probably only if they can move.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

Holy Maiden Warrior
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This got to be the nuttiest gameplay concept for a fangame I've ever seen. I'm reminded of this game I once downloaded from internet that had you try to clear levels constantly glitching between various retro games (Zelda, Asteroids, Pac-Man, Space Invaders...)

Still, I wonder how this indeed is going to fare. So far if you keep it to just two players at a time, this would be pretty interesting thing to look over to, especially if we get to see various gameplay mechanics clash. 3 players or more would make this rather messy.

BTW, looking at your game concept reminded me of mine from long times back, where I attempted to do a concept about how an RPG-game for SSB-series could be like.
 
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Khao

Smash Lord
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Lying about my country.
This got to be the nuttiest gameplay concept for a fangame I've ever seen. I'm reminded of this game I once downloaded from internet that had you try to clear levels constantly glitching between various retro games (Zelda, Asteroids, Pac-Man, Space Invaders...)

Still, I wonder how this indeed is going to fare. So far if you keep it to just two players at a time, this would be pretty interesting thing to look over to, especially if we get to see various gameplay mechanics clash. 3 players or more would make this rather messy.

BTW, looking at your game concept reminded me of mine from long times back, where I attempted to do a concept about how an RPG-game for SSB-series could be like.
Thanks! Just the kind of reaction I'm looking for, haha. As I keep adding more characters it'll hopefully only get even nuttier. Hopefully not broken, though!

So far I'm only planning on two players, yeah. From a technical standpoint, I actually coded this thing so it's super easy to add more players,. As in, I pretty much just have to change a number from 2 to whatever (yes, it can be 14036 or whatever other crazy number you had in mind). Buuuuuuut I did that when every character was from a sidescroller, I don't even want to see what happens if I do that with Marth.

And that RPG smash concept looks pretty interesting, would've loved to see it in action!
 
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~ Valkyrie ~

Holy Maiden Warrior
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Thanks! Just the kind of reaction I'm looking for, haha. As I keep adding more characters it'll hopefully only get even nuttier. Hopefully not broken, though!
Quite a feat it would be if so. I'd be intrigued to see it.

So far I'm only planning on two players, yeah. From a technical standpoint, I actually coded this thing so it's super easy to add more players,. As in, I pretty much just have to change a number from 2 to whatever (yes, it can be 14036 or whatever other crazy number you had in mind). Buuuuuuut I did that when every character was from a sidescroller, I don't even want to see what happens if I do that with Marth.
Who knows, maybe you could limit the usage of characters based on the gameplay genres they're from. (Apparently this was suggested already, huh). But let's see where it gets to. Don't think the amount of games on NES are that wildly varying, unless you attempt to branch off to 16-bit era (but that'd be lil' clashing).

And that RPG smash concept looks pretty interesting, would've loved to see it in action!
Thanks! A lot ideas got poured to this, even if I wonder if to ever get it produced for real (though if it ever did... Nintendo might just strike me down.)

I sometimes have attempted programming before but it's kind of a hassle to keep interest on. I mean I know the basics and some advanced things in game programming, hough limited to Game Maker Studio and *gasp* Stealth's Headcannon Engine, behind games like Sonic CD IOS and upcoming Sonic Mania.

It's little difficult to turn it to something you want to feel very accurate to actual games instead of having overall poor physics and like. Do remember wanting to make Parodius-esque horizontal SHMUP via use of this super-good Gradius III-engine I found on the internet, but never got to it.

Whoops, went on a tangent there.
 

RogerBidon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 15, 2016
Messages
52
Someone from a Final Fantasy game would ironically be a lot more complicated due to being simpler. The character can't move. It doesn't exists "physically". Its position in the screen is completely meaningless because it's not a real position, real time characters can't position themselves in relation to the RPG character, and they can't avoid the attacks because the attacks are, again, not-physical but governed by statistics.
Thinking of FFVII specifically. In battle mode characters have two possible "positions", backline and frontline. Maybe they could move to two screen locations representing respective lines. When the FFVII character turn comes, he can choose different attacks that cover different screen areas or have different chances of success depending of target's screen position.

It is not super vanilla RPG experience but clearly reminds it and maybe it can work.
 

ClashDev

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 5, 2014
Messages
11
Damn, I'm working on almost the same game. A few key differences but I am trying to keep the characters as accurate as possible to their original games like you are. Maybe we should team up in the future. I'll post a thread here soon when I have my game ready to show off.
 

MarioManTAW

Smash Ace
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Jun 10, 2016
Messages
843
Did some testing with the AI on the current version of the game to try to get a grasp on tiers and AI functionality, and the results are very clear.

Mario vs. Link: Link won 8/10 times.
Mario vs. Mega Man: Mega Man won 9/10 times.
Link vs. Mega Man: Mega Man won 10/10 times.

My conclusions:
A: Mario is garbage.
B: Mega Man is OP.
C: Link does not know how to properly use his shield.
And, after playing a few matches myself,
D: Mega Man has no idea what to do about Link's shield. (see this video: http://lowelectricbill.org/Timothy/videogames/GameMaker_ Studio 11_26_2016 11_25_09 AM.mp4 )
(Please fix Mega Man AI when you get the chance.)
 

DjinnandTonic

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Feb 26, 2015
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297
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This sounds awesome in a broken kind of way! If you're still working on this and want a sprite artist, I'm down to contribute!
 
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