Angel Slayer, A Bayonetta Match-Up Thread

[Call_Me_Red]

This is the (un)official thread to post match ups and have match up discussions.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Found this match-up chart on Lima's twitter. Thoughts?

I actually don't think I agree with a lot of it. I find the Inkling match up to be wildly out of our favor. Same thing for Isabelle and Samus, the projectiles just make the match up unbearable IMO.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Isabelle and Samus are two very winnable matchups, you just need experience against Samus is all. Isabelle isn't much of a threat.

My personal issues with this list are Lucas, who should be an even to hard matchup (I'd say 60:40 Lucas but that is just my personal opinion), Inkling (who should be 60:40), Ridley (who Bayonetta destroys lol), and Bowser (who isn't the easiest matchup because he dies at 200% and can kill you at 45% thanks to rage).

 

[ぱみゅ]

I disagree with quite a bit of those.
Sure, I don't have as much experience as Lima, and I'm not as good, but he's overestimating a lot of her matchups.
This is my list, fwiw.
Feel free to ask away.

Spoiler

 

[edde]

i have a ton of experience against inkling... this matchup seems really really hard... inkling outprioritizes bayo with everything pretty much.

If youre not used to it, the roller will destroy you... inkling's jab is too op for a get off me option... 20 dmg + ink + too quick/unpunishable

bayo excels at edgeguard... guess who has one of the best recoveries in the game? her upb's shinelike splash messes up bayo's recovery badly even if you attempt anything

inkling's downb destroys you/stops you

there is a decent interaction going on though... if inkling ever uses his standard special, bayo can Fsmash him.... BUT inkling never uses that move ,and bayo's fmash is trash (too weak, too punishable, super akward hitbox).... I'm only saying this cause even zero stated that if inkling uses his B you should never challenge it... well, bayo can, but its pretty much pointless

edit: wolf seems near impossible, wolf has just monster numbers and priority everythwere in his kit... plus he kills you without even expecting/aiming to kill... a random dash/tilt/smash and you're dead way sooner than you'd expect... while bayo cant kill.... yeah you can gimp his upb, but its incredibly hard to force wolf to a situation where he has to upb when he has his amazing sideb... dont challenge it, you'll die or take a **** ton of damage if you even think about challenging his sideb

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Hey, y'all. I realize I'm struggling with the match up. I just feel like he has so many tools that just straight up beat ours. Better kill power, better camping, better approaching, better priority, better damage output. The only advantage I see that we have is mobility and offstage presence. Mobility doesn't do us a lot of good if Wold stuffs us out at every turn, and Wolf's recovery is really hard to interfere with without dying. Plz help.

 

[Broqan]

So I have slight problem, im not gonna lie I've been flare blitzed more times then I care to admit. I don't know why I just completely space out whenever switches toit just seems so good at dealing with my ABK with Up Smash, flamethrower at ledge and living to 200% plus. I always hear that Charizard is not very good so its a little demoralizing not being able to make heads or tails of this match up.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Hey, y'all. I realize I'm struggling with the match up. I just feel like he has so many tools that just straight up beat ours. Better kill power, better camping, better approaching, better priority, better damage output. The only advantage I see that we have is mobility and offstage presence. Mobility doesn't do us a lot of good if Wold stuffs us out at every turn, and Wolf's recovery is really hard to interfere with without dying. Plz help.

Yeah, Top Tiers are a special kind of annoying characters, with cheesy options everywhere.

But Wolf's approach isn't particularly stellar, sure his air speed is great and every aerial is good, but all of them have different properties and different counterplay.
Basic principle of spacing: Stay at a distance where your opponent's shorthop can't reach, so his immediate options can't hit you and you'd be able to react to delayed ones (such as landing Fair or Nair). As a bonus you should be able to react to his Blaster from that distance so it doesn't hit you.
You can't always punish those options (specially landing aerials) so remaining patient and waiting for your chances to hit is key.

Then we have the parts that make the matchup hell:
If Wolf decides not to approach and he's in the lead now you have to. His Blaster limits your grounded options sou you need to use more aerials, and his own aerials (particularly Nair and Fair) are great for stuffing others'. Bayo's lack of disjoints hurt her here, she needs to get too close to comfort and that's how Wolf gets to control the pacing of the match.
Again, remain patient and wait for your chances.
And when you're recovering.... Pray his Dsmash timing isn't on point, else you'll be dying very early, very often. Try mo mix your timings, or read his attempts to get close and hit him before he tries anything; but your options are very limited there, or when you try to get off the ledge.

In conclusion Wolf controls the pacing of the game and camps hard, you need to rely on his mistakes. But he isn't very oppressive, just forces you to constantly guess how to approach or defend, and has good tools to both defend and push his advantage, but his weight and disadvantaged state are weaknesses Bayonetta takes good advantage of.

TLDR: The matchup sucks but it isn't impossible. Be very patient. Always.

So I have slight problem, im not gonna lie I've been flare blitzed more times then I care to admit. I don't know why I just completely space out whenever switches toit just seems so good at dealing with my ABK with Up Smash, flamethrower at ledge and living to 200% plus. I always hear that Charizard is not very good so its a little demoralizing not being able to make heads or tails of this match up.

WiFi Flare Blitz is the best move in the game.
Under lag it's difficult to react to it and chose the best way to avoid it and punish it, let alone challenge it.
Otherwise, a full shield can perfectly tank the hit and punish the bounce, Fsmash outright beats it, and it's extremely easy to Witch Time.

But Charizard living up to ludicrously high percents isn't that rare. In Captain Zack vs Wishes you can see Charizard living up to ~270%, I also had an opponent living up to ~280% once. A lot of that damage is its own recoil while trying to recover, but your plan is still the same: wait for your chance to strike the killing blow.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

So I have slight problem, im not gonna lie I've been flare blitzed more times then I care to admit. I don't know why I just completely space out whenever switches toit just seems so good at dealing with my ABK with Up Smash, flamethrower at ledge and living to 200% plus. I always hear that Charizard is not very good so its a little demoralizing not being able to make heads or tails of this match up.

As a former Charizard main and current Pokemon Trainer sub-main, this is my time to shine.

So Charizard's whole play style is based off fear. Charizard has to force you to be scared of one option and punish it with the opposite option. For example, if you're scared of the Flare Blitz and you decide to shield, get ready for a dash grab coming your way. This works considerably well considering how much spacing and damage output Charizard has.

So, in order to counter Zard as Bayo, you need to take control of the fight. Charizard has very weak neutral tools, and of course he's a heavy, so he's combo food to Bayo. It won't ever be easy to get the kill on Zard, but that's the whole point. Your best bet is to put a lot of pressure on and wait for him to slip up. Watch out for the last-resort Flare Blitz. If you have time to react and shield, do it, but don't preemptively shield since Zard has a good grab game. Be very careful off stage, all of Charizard's aerials are game enders (be extra careful of back air). Charizard's easy to edgeguard, but Up-B has super armor so if you see it coming, don't contest it. If you see flamethrower, that's a perfect chance for Witch Time. And if you manage to Witch Time a Flare Blitz, the super armor is too strong for our smash attacks to break through (I've learned the hard way). All in all, get those combos and put on the pressure, as long as you can avoid hits decently, you'll be fine.

TL;DR Charizard has bad neutral, and is easy to combo. He can kill you easy, but you cannot be afraid. Be patient, it'll take a while.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Here's my take on Bayo match ups

I'm honestly surprised by how few characters I put in the 'Lose' category. I always feel at a disadvantage playing as Bayo, but rarely ever do I feel like I just straight up lose due to character choice.

Tell me how I'm wrong, let's talk about what makes Bayo the low / mid tier that she is.