Analyzing projectile properties and in game stategies with them

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah I agree it would be quite situational if you didn't know the character specific percentages and so on. For this to really work I'd have to figure out a way to get them of the edge in a certain way that can be easily done and duplicated so I could get accurate results. Even then it could differ if they choose to recover in a different way.
Anyway I'll let you know if I find anything else.

 

[TLMarth]

Isn't it like pressing z->dair (the dair catches the bomb)?
Or does it give you more control?

Also another way to do bomb dairs is to
Edge hop->lay bomb on edge
Wait a bit
Edge hop dair, which catches the bomb.
Although it only works with vertical recoveries.

 

[stingers]

following a shorthopped nair/bair, you can quickdraw in arrow. something to note *once an arrow hits the gorund it's dead. No after-burn fire effect

Don't forget you an quickdraw an arrow after SH Fair as well!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok forget about the old safe spike, just forget it. It's not realistic and no one recovers that slow.

Think of the safe spike as an idea. The main ingredients are the bomb, a certain amount of time, being able to use dair while holding a bomb and an opponent to spike. That's what was wrong with the first safe spike, I never actually tested it on an opponent. After much testing and time wasted (I had to write this whole post twice!!!!!, the internet cut out.) I came up with;

The Safe Spike 2.0

Ok I cannot stress how quick this whole move needs to be done. I mean there has to be no delay at any point otherwise you'll blow your head off before you can even spike. Other then that, it's quite simple.
First you need to get your opponent relatively near an edge then pull out a bomb and hold A, C-stick towards your opponent, quickly let go of the C-stick and tap A (we don't want any lag in the F-smash) then throw the bomb up (you may as well C-stick up to throw it) turn your back on your recovering opponent (bomb starts falling back down) jump up and catch it with bair (slight DI over the edge) instantly hit dair.

I've tested this on all the characters on Final destination and I have a list of the percentages that they need to be on before you start this move, for this move to connect with the spike and send them to an early death.
Note: If you only connect with the last stroke of the F-smash then you'll need to add on 10% to these percentages.
After some of the names I have put R2G. This just means Recovery Too Good. In other words this move won't work on them.
Please keep in mind that these percentages represent what percent the opponent has to be on before you even start the move.
If the percentages have a - between them this means that they can be anywhere between these two percents. If there is just one percentage this means that you need to get them as close as possible to that percentage in order for this to work.

Mario, 60-65%
Luigi, 45-60%
Bowser, 80%
Wario, 70-75%
Peach, R2G
Toon Link, 70%
Link, 60-75%
:shiek: Shiek, R2G
Zelda, R2G
Ganondorf, 55-65%
Fox, 55-60%. Fox and Falco have to be well timed. You need to actually spike their side-B or up-B recoverys. But because this is a safe spike, you may as well try.
Falco, 60%
Wolf, Wolf's recovery is too fast.
Squirtle, 55%
Ivysaur, R2G
Charizard, 65-75%
Pikachu, 60-65%
Lucario, 70%
Jigglypuff, R2G
Kirby, R2G
King Dedede, 50% if you spike him before he uses up-B
MetaKnight, R2G
Diddy Kong, 75% He's too unpredictable, so you'd be lucky to get him.
Donkey Kong, 80%
Zero Suit Samus, 60% if your insanely quick.
Samus, You can't hit Samus with both strokes of the F-smash if you do it quickly (which we need to) however if you only hit her with the second then this move will work on her if she starts on 90% (not that great).
Marth, 60-65%
Ike, 55%
Lucas, 65%
Ness, 55-70%
Sonic, With Sonic it depends if they do they're up-B early or late. If they do it late then this move will work on him if he starts on 60-75%. If they do it early punnish him.
Captain Falcon, 70-75%
Snake, 75-90%
ROB, R2G
Yoshi, R2G
Ice Climbers, 55%
Mr Game and Watch, R2G
Pit, R2G
Olimar, 65%


I'll keep trying to improve the safe spike to make it easier and more realistic. Any ideas are welcome.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

ill try that out asap fox

tlm, fox is saying you can endlessly (or atleast until bomb explodes) chain any combonation of uairs and bairs without throwing a caught bomb. so say you caught the bomb with uair, you could do another one or a bair right after and then another right after. however if you try to use a nair or fair, then another aerail you'll throw the bomb. i have found out it is possible to chain dairs together but on all non created levels this is impoosible because you'd hit the ground first. the safe spike he is talking about refers to the ability to chain a bair wiht a dair without throwing the bomb and have the bomb explode without you sd from a missed dair attempt.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

You've no idea how happy I am that you understand.
Anyway, good find that you can chain dair's together. Not really too useful but it's good to know just for the record (but of course you knew that).

I'm looking forward to finding out what you think of the safe spike 2.0. It's main flaw is actually getting someone over near the edge to stay there while you pull out a bomb and connect the F-smash. I'm still trying to think of a way to ensure this to happen (maybe some kind of projectile trap). Anyway, when I figure that part out, this move will be unstoppable (3.0!).
Tell me what you think and if you have any ideas for the trap (that goes for anyone who wants to help).

Any and all sugestions made will be considered and tested.

I'll be hearing from ya.

 

[TLMarth]

Yeah you need springs to chain dair right?

I understand the safe spike

 

[Alzi]

Sounds interesting Fox Is Openly Deceptive i might try it i do understand a little of what your saying i just need to try it out to see the full picture.

 

[TehDudeAbides]

Great thread, this helped me a lot :D. BTW, Fox, Sonic has invincibility frames on the first half with his spring.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah you need springs to chain dair right?

I understand the safe spike

I'm not sure about the dair chain, (I didn't discover that part) But I'm pretty sure the spring jump would break the chain and you'd throw the bomb instead (although I havn't tested that) Toondiddy should be able to tell you.
I'm happy that you understand too TLMarth. (pats on head)
Did you have any ideas for the trap to set up this move? I respect your opinion on this. I'd really appreciate some ideas from you.

Sounds interesting Fox Is Openly Deceptive i might try it i do understand a little of what your saying i just need to try it out to see the full picture.

I'm glad to hear you find this interesting. Be sure to tell me what you think once you've done it.

Great thread, this helped me a lot :D. BTW, Fox, Sonic has invincibility frames on the first half with his spring.

Yes I know. I play sonic every now and then. I've already thought about the invincibility frames while I was testing and I didn't write a percentage unless I actually spiked them (It took a long time). But thx anyway.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Yeah you need springs to chain dair right?

I understand the safe spike

no like fox said i tihnk that will break the chain. i made a large custome stage

                                -
                                -
                                -
                                -
[]                             
---------------------------------

the platforms on the side go from he bottom to the top of the stage. jump to the top and then jump off. btw the floor is made of fall through platforms this wont effect your experiment in any way is just if you want to recreate the stage.(this stage is fun if you get bored and try a pitfall fight on it)

Great thread, this helped me a lot :D. BTW, Fox, Sonic has invincibility frames on the first half with his spring.

glad it helped

has anyone found any possible set ups for the safe spike? fox was telling me how a bomb trap might work but we'd need it to knock hem into the f-smash. So if nyone one here has suggestions or maybe an easier move/combo that would push them back about the distance of f-smash please post it.

 

[SmashKilla]

I didn't use the Boomerang a lot but when i read this thread, i tried it and i totally pwned wit boomerang. =P

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok I was checking out Z-dropping the bombs on the ground (so they don't explode) and I found a few interesting facts about the bomb when it's on the ground.

Ok before I start there's something you will need to know. Try holding Z when you Z-drop a bomb on the ground, that way if you miss time it, you will shield the blast and take no damage. Cool.

Right, Sh pull out a bomb and Z-drop it on the ground, (SHBPZDG) Repeat. You will have two bombs on the ground that will explode at different times. The first bomb will explode, you won't be able to see the second bomb (they will think they're both gone and run in) then just before the smoke is clears, the second one will go off. Punish.

Ok mind games. You want to keep them guessing whether or not the bomb on the ground has exploded or not.
SHBPZDG pull out another bomb, if you want to play mind games with them and explode the first bomb then you can either tilt throw it up, smash throw it up, throw the second bomb at the first bomb from any where in the air, throw it down or smash throw it at the first bomb.
If you don't want the first bomb to explode then have the two bombs sitting next to each other as mentioned above or roll away and simply throw the second bomb a the first one with A or SHBPZDG you try to repeat but you drop the second bomb too early (hold Z) it will explode (your OK) and once again the first bomb is still there.

Mix it up, keep them guessing. Also when you have two bombs on the ground (like I told you at the start) dair the bombs to have two explosions coming at them (the same as before, the first explosion won't explode the second bomb) heck you can even dair in between the two bombs to show off!

I'll be hearing from ya.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I would like to add something I found to help our spam game.
Full hop>bomb throw>bomb pull quickdraw>repeat. Basically, It helps to keep the spam going faster with bombs and arrows allowing to throw 2 proyectiles while pulling out another bomb.

 

[TLMarth]

That's cool TLMS
I have yet to try it though.

Who votes this thread for sticky in my Directory?

 

[Disfunkshunal]

I didn't use the Boomerang a lot but when i read this thread, i tried it and i totally pwned wit boomerang. =P

ToonDiddy~spreading the good news about projectiles, one noob at a time
loljk

im happy my thread was of service to you

Fox: the only flaw i see is you would need alot of time to do shbpzdg twice. also the first technique you mentioned would not work more than twice a match. Regarding the mindgamez, they seem a little more useful

Tlms: yo quiero usar esos. Despues de yo termino, yo hablo sobre que yo pienso. (Sorry if my grammer is bad, im still a student)

Tlm: i thought it was already :veryconfu

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Fox: the only flaw i see is you would need alot of time to do shbpzdg twice. also the first technique you mentioned would not work more than twice a match. Regarding the mindgamez, they seem a little more useful

Yeah I agree with everything you said.
I just like to know every concievable detail about everything, whether it's usefull or not. Maybe I should make a thread which includes all the seemingly useless random stuff most people don't know and probably don't need to know about Tlink. Lol it might not help you, but it's fun to know.

I would like to add something I found to help our spam game.
Full hop>bomb throw>bomb pull quickdraw>repeat. Basically, It helps to keep the spam going faster with bombs and arrows allowing to throw 2 proyectiles while pulling out another bomb.

I've checked this out, this is good stuff. Nice work.

Edit:
I've tried a few things for the safe spike 3.0 to set them up for the rest of the move like invisibombing, but nothing seems right. The closest thing I could find to something actually working is full hopping towards them, throwing a boomerang diagonally down at them, pulling out a bomb before you land, holding A, C-sticking and so on. The main problem is it still gives them a chance to get away, it's not flawless but it's a start.
Try it out and see if you can improve on it (maybe throw a boomerang, throw a bomb and pull out another bomb all in the one full hop).


Has anyone figured out a way to grab someone while holding a bomb? I'm still working on it, but if you do find a way then we can do something awesome. If an explosion interupts you while your holding/pummelling someone then you both receive damage but only your opponent receives knockback and hit stun (this = a free hit of your choice, even F-smash). So far the only way to do this is to throw a bomb up and have it land on you or to have a bomb on the ground infront of you explode. I'll be sure to let you know when I find a way.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

any thoughts on this ^^^^^^

ill test it out soon enough, i still havent fooled around too much with tlms said. i've been playing other games too. Before this week is over, inbetween test, other games, and life, i will test these out promise.

thats it for now

 

[DCStyle]

Has anyone figured out a way to grab someone while holding a bomb? I'm still working on it, but if you do find a way then we can do something awesome. If an explosion interupts you while your holding/pummelling someone then you both receive damage but only your opponent receives knockback and hit stun (this = a free hit of your choice, even F-smash). So far the only way to do this is to throw a bomb up and have it land on you or to have a bomb on the ground infront of you explode. I'll be sure to let you know when I find a way.

Might be a little hard, but why not trick your opponent into grabbing one of your bombs instead, then going for the grab?

 

[EmperorB-rad2kj]

How exactly do you bomb drop?

 

[EmperorB-rad2kj]

This thread is great. To bad i main ike

 

[DCStyle]

How exactly do you bomb drop?

Jump + zair.

To jump and zair with a bomb, you jump + r cancel + zair....I think. I mixed things up without brawl in front of me.



Also, to add on to you guys and "safe spiking."
I've performed this once or twice, but there's this stunt I pulled where I spiked with dair on the edge. My opponent was coming towards me from the left, I was next to the right edge. He attacked, I blocked into a grab, threw him off the edge. It happened quickly, but while he was recovering, I short hopped and daired safely onto the stage, spiking my opponent down to his death.

I'm sure this can be recreated, but it might be helpful if you're shielding while holding a bomb, and your opponent is recovering already from off the edge. It'd be an edge guard into spike type of scenario...but maybe even safer. Would there be any way to recreate this in a different matter?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Might be a little hard, but why not trick your opponent into grabbing one of your bombs instead, then going for the grab?

This might just work!
I'll look into a way to force them to catch it.
In any case, this is the main point, if your opponent catches one of your bombs for any reason, try to grab them, if you do, hit them until the bomb explodes then smash them. Yet another way we could do this, nice work.

Also, to add on to you guys and "safe spiking."
I've performed this once or twice, but there's this stunt I pulled where I spiked with dair on the edge. My opponent was coming towards me from the left, I was next to the right edge. He attacked, I blocked into a grab, threw him off the edge. It happened quickly, but while he was recovering, I short hopped and daired safely onto the stage, spiking my opponent down to his death.

I'm sure this can be recreated, but it might be helpful if you're shielding while holding a bomb, and your opponent is recovering already from off the edge. It'd be an edge guard into spike type of scenario...but maybe even safer. Would there be any way to recreate this in a different matter?

Do you mean shield grab with a bomb, throw him off then spike? To the best of my knowledge, you can't grab someone while holding a bomb. If you mean something else then please explain in more detail.

 

[DCStyle]

This might just work!
I'll look into a way to force them to catch it.
In any case, this is the main point, if your opponent catches one of your bombs for any reason, try to grab them, if you do, hit them until the bomb explodes then smash them. Yet another way we could do this, nice work.

Do you mean shield grab with a bomb, throw him off then spike? To the best of my knowledge, you can't grab someone while holding a bomb. If you mean something else then please explain in more detail.

No, my first scenario was without a bomb.
In the second scenario, I was asking if a "safe spike" could be implemented while being shielded on edge with a bomb in hand -- no grabbing required.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

DC, I'm sorry I still don't understand what your trying to say. How can you spike someone by 'being shielded on edge with a bomb in hand'? Do you mean you shield the blast of the bomb which hits them, then you Sh Dair while your still on the stage (you don't go off the stage, hence the 'safe spike') and the dair connects and spikes them because the bomb only hits them a little way?
I'm confused. Could you please try to explain again if I still didn't get it?
Does anyone else understand? If so then feel free to let me know aswell.

 

[DCStyle]

DC, I'm sorry I still don't understand what your trying to say. How can you spike someone by 'being shielded on edge with a bomb in hand'? Do you mean you shield the blast of the bomb which hits them, then you Sh Dair while your still on the stage (you don't go off the stage, hence the 'safe spike') and the dair connects and spikes them because the bomb only hits them a little way?
I'm confused. Could you please try to explain again if I still didn't get it?
Does anyone else understand? If so then feel free to let me know aswell.

Yeah. That's what I meant.
Bomb + Shield then SH dair
It's good if your opponent is climbing back from the edge and you're there waiting for him.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Right! Ok I'm so glad I understand.
I'll check it out and tell you if it works. (It should work, I see no reason why not, but I'll check anyway.)
The only problem there will be is timing the bomb to go off at the right time. But that can be easily fixed by testing. Nice idea DC.

 

[DCStyle]

Another thing I'd like to add:

If your opponent is on the edge and you're just waiting for him with a bomb, most likely, he/she will jump recover and air dodge, or fast fall and recover with an attack. You should have an idea of when the bomb will go off, so shield around the time it is supposed to, regardless of whether your opponent is attacking.
Your opponent may think you just got hit and is stunned, so go in for the actual attack, where you can then just sh and dair.
The smoke screen will also cause a distraction, leaving your opponent guessing..

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this also work if you sidestepped or airdodged?
If so then I would prefer to do it that way. It would be less obvious and I would just find it easier.

 

[DCStyle]

I'd like to think side-stepping or even air dodging as too clumsy/lag-oriented in this situation, but if it's easier, I guess it would work. One of the main points I was trying to make, though, was that shielding while holding a bomb can be an effective edge-guard/mind game strategy. Of course, if you use it EVERY TIME you edge guard, it'd become pointless.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok I'll try them all when I check this out. I'll let you know if I find anything you might want to know.

 

[Arc -The Fallen-]

Has anyone figured out a way to grab someone while holding a bomb? I'm still working on it, but if you do find a way then we can do something awesome. If an explosion interupts you while your holding/pummelling someone then you both receive damage but only your opponent receives knockback and hit stun (this = a free hit of your choice, even F-smash). So far the only way to do this is to throw a bomb up and have it land on you or to have a bomb on the ground infront of you explode. I'll be sure to let you know when I find a way.

Well... its kinda late... Haven't thought about grabs. Does Dash-canceled grabs work? I'll test if it works tomorrow . It works with Up-smash for sure and the vid is posted somewhere in Bombing like a pro. Does this thread collaborate alot with the other? I saw a couple but not everything about bombs are found in the Bombing like a pro section. Anyone want to update the sister thread?

~Arc

 

[TheFast]

Late birthday gift

Image Location: http://franchisemedia.ign.com/wiki/supersmashbros.ign.com/default/uploads/e/ea/Toonlinkboo.jpg

 

[Disfunkshunal]

a whole day late .
jk its all good, thanks for the pic i put it in the op
i also added a vocab, t.o.c., beginning of faq, safespike was added into 'things to look into'.

also 6 more post til we get to page 4

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well... its kinda late... Haven't thought about grabs. Does Dash-canceled grabs work? I'll test if it works tomorrow . It works with Up-smash for sure and the vid is posted somewhere in Bombing like a pro.

I didn't think of trying a dash canceled grab. Let me know what you find even if it doesn't work. I'm assuming your refering to grabbing with a bomb. If this works that would be insane!

I've got a little bit more information on reflectors. This might not help you but it's interesting to know that not all reflectors are the same. A normal fully charged arrow shot will do 12%. I shot all the reflectors in the game and got different results.

Damage the reflected shot did to me.
Fox's Down B = 18%
Falco's Down B = 18%
Wolf's Down B = 15%
Mario's Side B = 18%
Pit's Down B = 18%
Zelda's B = 14%

Also another good reason to use bombs against reflectors, bombs don't gain damage if reflected. Interesting.

 

[Alzi]

If someone finds out how to grab with a bomb think about all the dam combo's we can do. I might test a few things to see if we can grab with a bomb. I'll do some random things like bomb drop and test it with air dodging. Basically i'll do some random things to see if i can somehow grab with a bomb.

Grab, up throw, throw bomb up, Uair that would be awsome. :D

 

[Disfunkshunal]

tlms: this works best at a long distance, not extreme long but a little further than mid. the reason i say this is because the bomb and arrow both travel in a slightly declining path. when i did what you said, the bomb went on a higher path and the arrow went on a lower path but left the middle wide open. its a good damage builder but dont use too close.

fox: a full hop bommerang is easy to see coming and can be countered. i will continue to look into this though

i will also assist with trying to find grab w/ bomb techniques.

Op updated with reflector stuff and bomb grab was added to 'new things to look into'
the following reflectors were left out but ill try to help get them
-peach
-ness
-lucas
-rob
i know those people dont use theirs as much it wouldnt hurt to have some information on them right? there are also the ppls with counter if you want to count them.

i may go form board to board asking how they deal with toonlink's projectiles, and we can work on strategies to counter that

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

This war enjoyable reading and really helped me understand his projectiles a little more.

 

[Alzi]

In some matches i have been playing i found out this. I did a reverse arrow cancel with toon link and the bow was facing on the right while the arrow went to the left. It has happened 3 times to me.

Weird :S i might get a screenshot of it. This can be added to some strategies and mind games if known how to pull of all the time.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I haven't been able to figure out what a dash cancel is. I think I did a dash cancel grab a few times but it never worked if I tried to pick up a bomb with the dash part, then cancel into a grab. It's almost like the game has been programmed to say no to grabbing with a bomb. Could someone explain in lay-man's terms how to do a dash cancel anything, just in case I'm doing it wrong.

Also I tested this and you can pogo with a dair and it won't break 'the chain' (attacks strung together while holding a bomb). Arc the Fallen found this out and posted on the other thread Bombing like a pro. Anyway here it is.

PS. You can do d-air chains on stages with living targets (balloon on smashville, leaves on Canonbowel (team stage if not banned), shyguys on YI, kirby's rock) for sure cause i try that sometimes when the moment is right. Something to check for might be living "projectiles" like grenades, DDD's foward-b, Zamus's suit pieces, wario's wheel. Of course, bouncing off opponents can continue the d-airs.

Arc~

So maybe chaining dairs isn't so stupid. You guys should check it out. Nice work Arc.


Now, I've got something pretty cool. It's a mix between my post about throwing your opponent into the returning boomerang to get a free shot and my other post about using a full hop then throwing the boomerang diagonally down to set up the 3.0. I noticed that when you throw the boomerang diagonally down out of a full hop it has a strange flight path so I came up with this.

Full hop towards your opponent, throw a boomerang diagonally down (Edit, The boomerang throw is a tilt throw) straight away but make sure you miss them. You want the boomerang to come down behind them, then you fall back down towards them and hit them with either Nair or Zair (I'll go into the differences later) this will knock them directly into the returning boomerang and give you loads of time to hit them again for a three hit combo. Ok, other then the damage that Nair and Zair do there is also the knock back. I tested this on Mario and Nair worked until about 60% but Zair worked until around 110%, perfect for an easy U-smash kill.

Now, I noticed there is little if no difference in the way the boomerang returns even if it doesn't touch the ground. This means you can use it even if your opponent is close to the edge. This move is awesome by itself but, I see big potential if we combine this with the safe spike to make the safe spike 3.0. It needs more testing and more time but so far this is the best option we have simply because it gives us so much time, time enough even to pull out a bomb and F-smash.
Tell me what you think. Should I use this or find another way to do the 3.0?

Edit:
Toondiddy, I checked out the percentage of a reflected fully charged shot with Ness, Lucas, Rob and Peach.
Ness's Side Smash = 18%
Lucas's Side Smash = 18%
Rob's Side B = 18%
Peach, did you mean Peach's B? I would call that a counter not a reflector. Maybe you know something I don't. In anycase, Peach's B can do anything between 0 and 18% depending on how close you are.
You should also put in the OP that a reflected bomb doesn't gain damage.