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An official definition of an echo fighter. From Nintendo's JP site.

Turnips and Daisies.

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https://topics.nintendo.co.jp/c/article/2200766f-96b6-11e8-b123-063b7ac45a6d.html

攻撃力やふっとばし力、歩行、走行速度、ジャンプ力、重さなどの基礎パラメーターが、オリジナルファイターに対してほぼ同じのファイターのこと

The basic parameters such as attack power, knockback power, walking and running speed, jump height, weight, etc. are about the same as the original fighter
I think this is done so that the echo fighters can be more easily balanced against their originals.

:ultdaisy::ultlucina::ultdarkpit::ultdarksamus::ultchrom:

(These echo fighters are confirmed to have some differences)

:ultrichter:

(This echo fighter only varies in appearance, voice and some gestures)

:ultpichu::ultdoc::ultyounglink:

These fighters have more drastic variations in speed, weight and attack power etc. So they aren't echo fighters.
 

Quillion

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Ah, that explains why Doc was reclassified after being an unstated echo back in Smash 4. Hopefully he's actually balanced around being his own character rather than having parameters based off of Mario's.
 

Oddball

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I still don't understand why some people feel the need to have strict definitions and categories regarding what is and what isn't an echo fighter.

We all know what you're talking about when you mention it.
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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Ah, that explains why Doc was reclassified after being an unstated echo back in Smash 4. Hopefully he's actually balanced around being his own character rather than having parameters based off of Mario's.
Yeah, Doc’s probably being balanced from the ground up this time.

The only NEW echo that we can pinpoint the differences of is Chrom, because the no hilt, fire, Up B and Final Smash.

Daisy and Dark Samus are characters that would need more changes than just a sweetspot mechanic. Wonder how they will be handled.
 

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If Richter only varied in voice and gestures, he'd be an alternate skin a la Alph (and what Lucina and Dark Pit were originally going to be in Smash 4) - not an Echo Fighter with his own slot.
 

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When was it confirmed that Daisy and Dark Samus have differences from the character they're based on?
They look to be quite a lot like Richter, in that they are basically costumes with unique animations.
 

Hinata

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:ultrichter:

(This echo fighter only varies in appearance, voice and some gestures)
I'm so tired of seeing this.

Richter is going to have gameplay differences, even if they're minor. He isn't just different from Simon in animation alone. If all that was different was his animations, he could easily just be an alternate skin. But he's not, he's his own character. And every clone that takes up their own spot on the roster has differences in knockback/damage/weight from the character they're a clone of, no matter how small they are.
 

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I'm so tired of seeing this.

Richter is going to have gameplay differences, even if they're minor. He isn't just different from Simon in animation alone. If all that was different was his animations, he could easily just be an alternate skin. But he's not, he's his own character. And every clone that takes up their own spot on the roster has differences in knockback/damage/weight from the character they're a clone of, no matter how small they are.
The website already said he'd have subtle differences in his moves. Besides, boy and girl Inklings have different animations, so if Richter didn't have a single gameplay difference he'd be an alt.
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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When was it confirmed that Daisy and Dark Samus have differences from the character they're based on?
They look to be quite a lot like Richter, in that they are basically costumes with unique animations.
Daisy: “They look similar, but their moves behave differently.“

She also has a different height, meaning a different hit/hurtbox. We also spotted that her side B in the air is much quicker in startup, but her forward air has nerfed range compared to Peach’s.

Dark Samus is undetermined for now.

As for Richter, it was explictly labeled and demonstrated that his differences are only cosmetic in the direct and Japanese Smash Blog.

No alternate skin in the game has different taunts, or idle animations.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Ah, that explains why Doc was reclassified after being an unstated echo back in Smash 4. Hopefully he's actually balanced around being his own character rather than having parameters based off of Mario's.
Dr. Mario is supposed to be a slower Mario who hits harder. That's what basically sets Dr. Mario apart from Dark Pit and Lucina, as their mobility attributes are pretty much the same as that of Pit and Marth respectively.
 

Hinata

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Daisy: “They look similar, but their moves behave differently.“

She also has a different height, meaning a different hit/hurtbox. We also spotted that her side B in the air is much quicker in startup, but her forward air has nerfed range compared to Peach’s.

Dark Samus is undetermined for now.

As for Richter, it was explictly labeled and demonstrated that his differences are only cosmetic in the direct and Japanese Smash Blog.
First off, good to see you, memoryman.

Second, no it wasn't. Sure, Sakurai offhandedly mentioned that "their strengths are the same" in the Direct, but that means nothing. it's just typical PR speak for clones. Also, because I know you're going to bring this up, the holy water demonstration means nothing. Hell, if you pay attention, Richter's holy water has more intense hit sparks near the end of the move. Who's to say that Richter's holy water doesn't do more damage?

The English version wasn't a mistranslation either. Richter's moves will have "subtle variations" like the English blog said. I guarantee it.
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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I hope Richter has gameplay differences too...

First off, good to see you, memoryman.

Second, no it wasn't. Sure, Sakurai offhandedly mentioned that "their strengths are the same" in the Direct, but that means nothing. it's just typical PR speak for clones. Also, because I know you're going to bring this up, the holy water demonstration means nothing. Hell, if you pay attention, Richter's holy water has more intense hit sparks near the end of the move. Who's to say that Richter's holy water doesn't do more damage?

The English version wasn't a mistranslation either. Richter's moves will have "subtle variations" like the English blog said. I guarantee it.
I feel like Sakurai would have mentioned the differences. Like he did with Daisy and Dark Samus and Chrom. Even with Dark Pit he mentioned that he’s almost the same in strength.
 
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Hinata

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I feel like Sakurai would have mentioned the differences. Like he did with Daisy and Dark Samus and Chrom. Even with Dark Pit he mentioned that he’s almost the same in strength.
Sure, he probably should've mentioned the differences, but just because he didn't doesn't mean there aren't any. If Richter has no gameplay differences, then there's no point in making him his own character. Even Dark Pit and Lucina, who had taunt and idle animation differences even when they were planned to just be alt skins, were removed from their base character when gameplay differences popped up. Why would Sakurai just go back on this idea for one single character?
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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Sure, he probably should've mentioned the differences, but just because he didn't doesn't mean there aren't any. If Richter has no gameplay differences, then there's no point in making him his own character. Even Dark Pit and Lucina, who had taunt and idle animation differences even when they were planned to just be alt skins, were removed from their base character when gameplay differences popped up. Why would Sakurai just go back on this idea for one single character?
Lucina and Dark Pit don’t even have different idles. In fact Dark Pit’s taunts last the same length of time.

Richter seems to have the main thing be his taunts. Since his idles and taunts don’t match up with Simon’s, he can’t be a skin because it would mess with records.

Now that echo fighters are a thing and they can be stacked, it might be that Sakurai feels that Richter is fine as is. I don’t know...

Plus, it would mean that he doesn’t have to be balanced at all. Richter is the only echo fighter based off a newcomer, and Simon’s untested.
 
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Quillion

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Dr. Mario is supposed to be a slower Mario who hits harder. That's what basically sets Dr. Mario apart from Dark Pit and Lucina, as their mobility attributes are pretty much the same as that of Pit and Marth respectively.
I know, but apparently Dr. Mario's numbers were lazily made to have small multipliers on Mario's in Smash 4. I think they're changing that for Ultimate.
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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I know, but apparently Dr. Mario's numbers were lazily made to have small multipliers on Mario's in Smash 4. I think they're changing that for Ultimate.
Yes, the key thing seems to be balancing. The clones in Smash 4 were balanced in a different manner to every other character. They used something called “relative adjustment”. Where their abilites were adjusted and tested against mainly the original character. Keeping them similar would mean that workload is reduced in this front.

Dr Mario in Smash 4 was considered to be much worse than Mario due to his altered physics, whilst Dark Pit and Lucina are much closer to their originals in viablity.
 
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Quillion

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Yes, the key thing seems to be balancing. The clones in Smash 4 were balanced in a different manner to every other character. They used something called “relative adjustment”. Where their abilites were adjusted and tested against mainly the original character. Keeping them similar would mean that workload is reduced in this front.

Dr Mario in Smash 4 was considered to be much worse than Mario due to his altered physics, whilst Dark Pit and Lucina are much closer to their originals in viablity.
Oh yeah, I heard about that. It sounded lazy now and it still does today.

That said, I hope they're not going to pull any more Doc-like BS and keep Echoes as similar as possible if anything.
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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Oh yeah, I heard about that. It sounded lazy now and it still does today.

That said, I hope they're not going to pull any more Doc-like BS and keep Echoes as similar as possible if anything.
It sounds like they aren’t drastically messing with the basic attributes that would affect playstyle significantly. Something like adjusting run speed and weight would have a huge knock-on effect. Something like adjusting how fast or slow a move is or it’s specific damage output isn’t as critical, and can be adjusted vs the original.

I do think that not giving clones full balancing is quite lazy though. Maybe this time they are testing echoes against some extreme case characters like Pichu or Mario or Bowser?
 
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Hinata

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I'd be fine if echoes like Richter or even Daisy didn't have any gameplay differences, because that means people can just play whichever character they want without worrying about being better or worse than the base character. But I'm positive that all of them, even Richter, have something different about their gameplay. Maybe it's just something small like having a different Final Smash. Richter and Daisy don't have confirmed Final Smashes yet after all. (By the way, still really hoping Richter's is Hydro Storm)

It sounds like they aren’t drastically messing with the basic attributes that would affect playstyle significantly. Something like adjusting run speed and weight would have a huge knock-on effect. Something like adjusting how fast or slow a move is or it’s specific damage output isn’t as critical, and can be adjusted vs the original.
Eh, I see where you're coming from, but I think even adjusting something like the speed or damage of a move would really affect the playstyle of an echo vs. their base character.

Like, for example, if Daisy's side-B sends people away at a higher angle than Peach's, or Richter's forward air is faster than Simon's (just as examples), that means the combo strings that worked on Peach/Simon might not work for them.

Basically, I think any gameplay difference an echo has would alter their playstyle in a noticeable way.
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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Like, for example, if Daisy's side-B sends people away at a higher angle than Peach's, or Richter's forward air is faster than Simon's (just as examples), that means the combo strings that worked on Peach/Simon might not work for them.
Yes that is true. I think they are still adjusted against certain characters but not really all of them like the others are. We saw Daisy versing Inkling Boy in the Training Stage and doing a Dash Attack to Side B, which was not possible at all in Smash 4.

In one case Daisy even did a back air to side B in her promotional material, another combo not present in Smash 4 Peach.
 
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thirsty-pocket

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This clears up so much for me. I was having a devil of a time understanding what an Echo was when clones and semiclones were still a thing.
 

Quillion

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This clears up so much for me. I was having a devil of a time understanding what an Echo was when clones and semiclones were still a thing.
I'm just going to call characters that are clealy derivative but not officially epsilons "semi-echoes".
 

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I know, but apparently Dr. Mario's numbers were lazily made to have small multipliers on Mario's in Smash 4. I think they're changing that for Ultimate.
Yeah, Dr. Mario acted as if he was equipped with +15 Attack and -50 Speed. No one else in Smash 3DS / Wii U had that kind of feature.
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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Yeah, Dr. Mario acted as if he was equipped with +15 Attack and -50 Speed. No one else in Smash 3DS / Wii U had that kind of feature.
I think it's gone from Ultimate and Dr Mario is being balanced from scratch this time.

Wait....didn't Sakurai once say that it doesn't make sense for Mario in a doctor outfit to be slower and jump half as high?
 
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Pippin (Peregrin Took)

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Did Alph and the Koopalings have any different animations from Olimar and Bowser Jr. in 4? I know their voices were different (did Olimar or Alph even have a voice?)
 

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Did Alph and the Koopalings have any different animations from Olimar and Bowser Jr. in 4? I know their voices were different (did Olimar or Alph even have a voice?)
As a Bowser Jr main myself, the only thing I've seen that's different between Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings is their voices (and appearance obviously) .
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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I do think Richter's the exception to the echo fighter definition. Sakurai said that "he will be classified as an echo fighter" in the JP direct. And the "Echo Fighter" term was in quotation marks.

 

Quillion

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Wait, was it actually confirmed that Richter really does have the same stats as Simon?
 

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:ultpichu::ultdoc::ultyounglink:

These fighters have more drastic variations in speed, weight and attack power etc. So they aren't echo fighters.
So an echo fighter is a character that does not have drastic enough changes to be a clone...

this clarifies absolutely nothing.
 

Quillion

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So an echo fighter is a character that does not have drastic enough changes to be a clone...

this clarifies absolutely nothing.
I think the real definition is that echoes are, in short, lazily coded. Their numbers are kept nearly identical to the original in order to save time with balancing them because they're effectively the same character with a different knockback angle here or there.

When Doc was an echo in Smash 4, he was the most divergent echo, but he ended up being poorly designed because they attempted to make him slow, strong Mario without properly balancing him. Thus, I think they're reworking him to be balanced as his own character.

EDIT: "slow, fast Mario"... man, I'm pretty tired.
 
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pupNapoleon

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I think the real definition is that echoes are, in short, lazily coded. Their numbers are kept nearly identical to the original in order to save time with balancing them because they're effectively the same character with a different knockback angle here or there.

When Doc was an echo in Smash 4, he was the most divergent echo, but he ended up being poorly designed because they attempted to make him slow, fast Mario without properly balancing him. Thus, I think they're reworking him to be balanced as his own character.
I think the definition of an echo is "somewhere on the spectrum between an alt and a clone."
 

Quillion

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I think the definition of an echo is "somewhere on the spectrum between an alt and a clone."
Echo is the official term for direct clone now. This is why I'm using "semi-echo" to describe the non-epsilon fighters that are clearly derivative of others.
 

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Echo is the official term for direct clone now. This is why I'm using "semi-echo" to describe the non-epsilon fighters that are clearly derivative of others.
You postulate that clone doesnt mean clone.
Okay. So nothing means anything.
 
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pupNapoleon

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Yet you postulate that "echo" doesn't mean "clone."



Correct me if wrong, but I believe your definition of "clone" is most people's definition of "semi-clone."
I dont subscribe to any non-given vocabulary. Ive actively posted against phrases like "semi clone," because they are made by the fanbases.

That said, is your statement that there are only clones and semi clones, and no difference between that and an echo?
 

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I think the real definition is that echoes are, in short, lazily coded. Their numbers are kept nearly identical to the original in order to save time with balancing them because they're effectively the same character with a different knockback angle here or there.

When Doc was an echo in Smash 4, he was the most divergent echo, but he ended up being poorly designed because they attempted to make him slow, strong Mario without properly balancing him. Thus, I think they're reworking him to be balanced as his own character.

EDIT: "slow, fast Mario"... man, I'm pretty tired.
Ironically, Dr. Mario's mobility differences in Smash 3DS / Wii U pretty much meant that he was never an Echo Fighter to begin with. Heck, he didn't even share Mario's down special.
 

Quillion

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Ironically, Dr. Mario's mobility differences in Smash 3DS / Wii U pretty much meant that he was never an Echo Fighter to begin with. Heck, he didn't even share Mario's down special.
Doc was the odd man out of the Smash 4 Echoes due to how divergent he was, but they still put him in the same corner with Lucina and Dark Pit and balanced him solely with Mario:

During the regular adjustment process we have each fighter battle all others and try to grasp the strong and weak problem areas, but in this case we had Dr. Mario go against Mario and tried to adjust it so it would most likely result in a tie. We did the same for Marth and Lucina, as well as Pit and Black Pit."
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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I dont subscribe to any non-given vocabulary. Ive actively posted against phrases like "semi clone," because they are made by the fanbases.

That said, is your statement that there are only clones and semi clones, and no difference between that and an echo?
I consider Dr Mario and co to be semi clones, because while they share some of the basic moves and attributes, it’s not really globally the same with variations like true clones are.

Wait, was it actually confirmed that Richter really does have the same stats as Simon?
Yes.

強さは元と同じだが外観や声、しぐさが異なる

Strength/ability values are the same as the original, look, voice and gesture are different.

He was basically saying that ALL of Richter’s parameters are the same. Not just the basic ones like Dark Pit and Lucina. I can understand why. Simon’s a newcomer.
 

Turnips and Daisies.

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Some extra tidbits from Treehouse.

• Generally, when it comes to an echo fighter, around 90...95% of their stuff is the same. It’s going to be mostly the same.

• Dr Mario not an echo because he has stuff that makes him play very differently from Mario, such as his weight (apparently he’s heavier), gravity, run speed, strong attacks, forward air knockback, Dr Tornado etc.

• Someone like Daisy DOES have some gameplay differences, but it’s mostly thematic and cosmetic (flowers etc.). The vast majority of the character is the same (then she would be considered an echo)

• Not out of the realm to see stuff like Chrom’s Up B....not similar to Roy’s at all although the rest of his kit is very similar/the same as Roy.

• You will see some changes...and it just depends per character. JC looking forward to people finding out. Personally he is really excited for Daisy.


11:41 and 46:59
 
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