An Argument for Robin's Competitive Viability

[Chapter]

Hello humans, robots, aliens, plants, and beings beyond comprehension. I am here to (finally) present my argument for Robin! This has honestly been a long time coming. I've presented arguments many times over on Reddit, but yielded few results. Many people appreciate my dedication to the character, but are not persuaded that Robin has any place in the high-tier world of SSB4 competition. I am here to convince you otherwise; let's add magician-tactician to that list and be on our way! But, for clarification, no, I do not think Robin is a Top Ten character. If I were to pick him up and drop him somewhere else on the tier list, it would be around Top 15, probably #17 or #18. Now that I've introduced myself and why I am here, a disclaimer or two!

• Disclaimer: This argument is being presented during Update 1.1.6, thought to be the final update for SSB4
• Disclaimer: I will use "he" for Robin because I play as Default Male Robin; this is just because it's annoying to use "he/she" every sentence.
• Disclaimer: Don't yell at me if I'm not responding super fast over here! I want to present my argument on SmashBoards to deliver my perspective to as big an audience as possible, but it is quite likely that I will be more present on Reddit (where I intend to link this debate).

http://imgur.com/Bki2qsM

NEW RESULTS! Dath, first at Vitality and third at Shine, defeating 6WX twice, SuperGirlKels, Marss, Larry Lurr, and more. Athena's seventh at 2GGT Breakthrough (an Arcadian). Ignis, ninth at an Australian regional.

This is just a preview of Robin himself. His pros, cons, and competitive results. I thought it would be a good idea to open the argument with something brief for everyone to look at. A TL;DR of sorts. I got great advice on improving my argument over on Reddit (shoutout to /u/FlameCannon in particular, please don't make a "Robin Isn't Viable" post) and this is how I will do it! If you have any questions, ask away. Robin of course has more results, but I tried to keep relatively recent and important ones on the list.

To expand upon this list, I'll cover Robin's best tools. First, Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder, and Thoron. Each is unique and powerful in their own way. The first, a quick poke, the second, a slow-moving tool for the Neutral, Arcthunder, a powerful combo tool for punishes, and finally, Thoron, a kill move and stage-covering beam of devastation. They allow Robin to camp and B-Reverse > Roll as a landing option (because he can charge in the air and then roll when he hits the ground). Arcfire, his SideB, is a tool for Neutral (usually, sometimes impossible to use in particular match-ups) that starts combos and links into UAir for kills around 100% damage. DThrow is his combo throw; it combos into Jab, UTilt, and a charged Smash Attack (reading an immediate air-dodge) and combos into UAir at kill percentages for a true kill confirm combo. His BThrow is his kill throw. His FThrow combos into Thoron (unreliably on smaller/lighter characters) and is good for recycling edge-guards. Nosferatu is a command grab that heals Robin and is a great mix-up for landing against shield; health restoration increases as Robin's percent increases/the opponent's decreases. All of his aerials kill, and all can be made to not kill when attacking with his alternate sword (forced usage when Robin uses NAir). Robin drops his sword and tomes after several uses and can pick them up as combo and killing items. Many see this as a weakness despite it being a powerful and dangerous attribute that can also randomly cover Robin's unsafe options through stalling (making an item drop later than it should and come out as a stray hitbox). Robin can spike with his UpB and can use it as a completely safe gimping tool, spike or not. He has many more tools but this is getting long, so I'll cut myself off here. Ask me if you'd like more info, or check out my guide for Robin at the bottom! It's a review of Robin as a whole; what's good, what's bad, and what's in between.

With tools like those mentioned above, he may very well be the best zoner in the game (ignoring RosaLuma). His kills are reliable, he has a solid weight, fantastic gimping kit, good recovery, and can camp with painful ease. Unlike Toon Link, he doesn't rely on a throwing item to get kills. Items are less reliable as they can be caught, and Toon Link can't use normal aerials or grab while holding a bomb. Robin uses his special attacks to zone alongside items that kill without a followup.

A list of players representing Robin on a competitive level:

• Dath
• Nairo (obviously a secondary)
• Raziek (recently switched to Cloud/Corrin/Robin trio)
• Jerm
• Johan
• Mr. II
• Athena
• Pheno
• eXMeL (inactive?)
• Smash G0D (inactive?)
• Ignis (an Australian PR'd Robin player, co-mains Mario)

Robin currently has a very solid MU chart. This is my MU chart and my opinion of Robin in the meta. I will discuss two of the noteworthy match-ups.

http://imgur.com/a/MbUFv

Versus Sonic/Explanation of Why Robin's Speed does not Ruin the Him: You're plausibly thinking "okay, this guy is stupid and insane, how the hell does Sonic lose to Robin!?" Weird, right? Allow me to run through the match-up the way it is supposed to be played. Sonic and Robin sit in the corners and camp each other. Yep. This is how both characters play the match-up. Did I interpret this incorrectly? Is Sonic actually supposed to abuse his speed as the fastest character fighting the slowest? Well, yes and no. Sonic of course can do this, and play a SuperGirlKels-esque, aggro, and in-your-face style against Robin, but it will fail. Robin is best when far away and avoiding confrontation, or initiating a confrontation after walling out an opponent and successfully landing an aerial or Elthunder. Sonic falls into the second category of "where is Robin most comfortable." Sure, the whole point of his character is to be Spin Dashing through shields safely because his speed makes punishes impossible, but Robin has way too much disjoint and option coverage to be susceptible to that. The reason many people look at this match-up on paper and think it's an easy win for Sonic is because of the difference in speed. However, this match-up is merely a perfect highlight of Robin's capability. In match-ups like these, Robin's speed can be ignored. He doesn't need to approach, and shouldn't approach. Sonic will likely attempt to play an aggro playstyle. He will fail, and then he will try to camp you with spin dash. Why can't Sonic camp? Arcthunder. The whole reason Sonic's aggro strategy is annoying for Robin is because he can no longer charge Thunder all the way to Arcthunder or Thoron safely, and can no longer use Arcfire in the Neutral. However, Sonic can SideB > Shield > SideB > Shield > SideB > Shield all he wants. It isn't safe to shield Arcthunder or Arcfire. If he does shield a trapping projectile, Sonic will get Checkmated, DThrow > Jabbed, and Nosferatu'd. If you have any more questions about this match-up (or the Captain Falcon match-up, as I will not be covering that one) then go ahead and do so! I am very happy to answer questions, comments, and disagreements. I tried to stay brief in this paragraph but... Yeah, that obviously didn't happen.

Versus Zero Suit Samus/Explanation of Robin's Flaws: Commonly considered to be Robin's worst match-up. Zero Suit doesn't care about Arcfire because of DownB and her grab. Robin gets combo'd to hell and back, and can't really land any of his trapping projectiles or a grab. Zero Suit Samus can win in Neutral a few times to succeed, but we need many more. Of course Robin's neutral is stupendous, but her ZAir, DownB, NeutralB, and Grab don't care so much. We die early, get combo'd hard, and can't camp comfortably. This match-up highlights Robin's vulnerability to characters who combo well while doing just as good or better than Robin in Neutral. Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, Cloud, and Mewtwo put Robin in similarly difficult situations. It is very challenging to camp someone who is fast and has low-risk projectiles for their Neutral. Top-it-off with godlike frame data and you're starting to make something that looks like a bad match-up for Robin.

If you are interested in learning Robin, you can read my guide here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k18z154fspmm8wp/Robin%20Guide.pdf?dl=0

That's all from me. Before I go, I'd like to thank the Robin Discord Group for helping me learn about the game and about my character. Thank you to the users "-Xero" and "Delzethin" in particular. Follow them on Twitter, @ColeXero and @Delthezin if you want to. They're great. Also thank you to my training partner who helps me improve so much.

If you'd like to see more from me, you can follow me on Twitter @Chapter_Liam and find me on Reddit under the name /u/ChapterLiam.

Please add to the discussion! Agree, disagree, or yell at me with personal hatred without elaboration.

Thank you for reading, and please reconsider your view of Robin; hopefully I have convinced you that he is deserving of a spot in the Top 20.

 

[Nah]

I'll post, I got nothing better to do.

I disagree with you on several points and find your assessment rather optimistic. I think that Robin is mid-tier, and unlikely to ever be more than mid-tier, though whether or not that means viable or non-viable is also another discussion to be had. I personally feel that Robin's MU spread is like this:

Spoiler

Advantage:

Slight Advantage:

Even:

Slight Disadvantage: /

Disadvantage:

idk: Miis

Assuming my interpretation of Robin's MUs is remotely correct, she has issues with a lot of meta relevant characters and beats ones that.....aren't so meta relevant.

In regards to the Sonic matchup, you mention the optimal way for both of them to play the MU....but then go on to explain why Robin wins when the Sonic is not playing optimally. I call it even since it's largely dependent on who gets the percent lead first. If Sonic does he can just run away the entire game and there's literally nothing Robin can do to catch him, and that's where Robin's bottom-tier mobility becomes a problem. If Robin gets the lead, then it kinda goes like how you describe. It's probably somewhat common for the Sonic to not play the MU right since Robin's not a common character and I'm sure a lot of them think "lol Robin's so slow I'ma do what I want".

As for the ZSS MU, you're basically right on why it's a problem for Robin. The more important thing is though why the things that make Robin struggle in that matchup matter on a broader scale. In this game's life it's been made very clear that mobility and frame data (with things like good hitboxes, your disadvantage state, and kill set-ups being important but to a lesser degree). Robin has **** mobility, overall average frame data, and a poor disadvantage state. All things you don't want to have. The majority of characters generally considered good have at least one of good mobility, frame data, or disadvantage state, and some of them have things that very much make up for their issues ( disadvantage and overall mobility is not amazing, but he has some damn good **** like Banana, Monkey Flip, Fair, etc). And I don't think that Robin's strengths are the ones that make up enough for her weaknesses. Disjoint is nice, kill confirms are nice, zoning tools (whether or not they're some of the best is another discussion I suppose) but then you have who has none of those things but does very well because of his--guess what--mobility and frame data (and Usmash). Mobility is particular important in this game given how it fundamentally works: being where you want, when you want, and quickly and easily is so so helpful. The only characters who don't necessarily have all the good stuff most of the other good characters are Rosalina and MegaMan, who have oppressive as **** neutrals.

A couple of minor nitpicks:
1) I honestly would not include Nairo on that list. As skilled as he is, he spends far more time with ZSS and the vast majority of his results have come through her, and he usually seems to use Robin when he's sandbagging or collecting data on his opponent. Throw Johan on there though, I think he's worth including.
2) Is it possible for you to post your guide in a non-Dropbox format, as that's kinda of a pain in the ass to access.

....I should probably put in the big disclaimer that I am not an optimist about the character, never have been, and am not really an optimistic person. I'm also not really good at Smash (or anything really) and am not the most articulate person in the world. So y'know, don't put a hell of a lot of stock in what I say or think. I just needs ways to pass the time.

Oh, and Delzethin he's talking about you, right?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Rather than post about placings, talk to me about notable wins that Robin players have gotten (preferably recently). Most don't care about a placing when all they did was beat randoms.

 

[Delzethin]

Essentially...I think Robin is an upper mid tier character as it stands--somewhere in the mid 20s overall, probably. There are some weaknesses there, like low ground mobility and few answers to heavy close range pressure, but there are also many strong points. I feel like there's a lot to the character that we still haven't explored yet, that we haven't even come close to Robin's full potential. I want to look more into new strategies we haven't yet given more than a passing glance, things involving roll-cancel grabs, late-hit uairs and bairs, more complicated item play, footstool setups, et cetera.

The big reason Robin gets looked down on a lot is that his strengths aren't very apparent to newer players. He's not very straightforward; his neutral is more defensive and counterintuitive to newcomers' tendency to want to run up and hit people. Not only that, but he's severely lacking in rushdown tools, and playing aggressively with him requires being smart about it and having an innate understanding of what to do. On the opposite end, while Robin has strong projectiles, the fact that they can run out and be unusable for a while means Robin can't hard camp and turtle his way to a win, either. Poor at rushdown, poor at hard camping, and those are generally the two strategies new players fall back on. If a character can't do either one, they must be unviable, right? But as we know, it's not that simple.

I guess more than anything, it's a lack of knowledge and lack of understanding by non-Robin mains of how Robin works that causes this kind of thing. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a player or commentator assume Robin's default strategy is to camp in neutral, or that anyone fast can just run in and press buttons with impunity, or that anyone fast can also get a lead and then run away for free the rest of the match. The truth is, Robin has a learning curve beyond getting used to his weapons breaking, and most of it involves understanding how to use his tools to their greatest effect. Most people who haven't seen a good Robin in action wouldn't realize how Arcthunder can immediately give Robin the advantage, how Arcfire actually works best when your opponent's options are already limited rather than being haphazardly thrown out in neutral, how Levin aerials' shieldstun and Levin fair's upward swing and ridiculously early autocancel (Frame 27!) make it so Robin can actually play footsies pretty competently, how Thoron is its most dangerous as a punish that bypasses any hitboxes and projectiles, how Robin actually has a scary offstage game due to nair's horizontal knockback, Elwind's Frame 8 spike hitbox, Arcfire to severely limit ledge options...the list goes on quite a ways.

And it's not as if it's all just theory. Just ask @Dathx; he's the one coming off back to back Top 32 placements at CEO and EVO, signature wins over Pink Fresh, Nietono, and Anti, and near-wins against Mr. R and Void.


Here's my own matchup chart I put together last week:

It might be exaggerated a bit, now that I look at it, but it still gets the intended point across.

 

[Wnyke]

So... why am I having trouble dealing with yoshi???...

I'm always forced to make some hard reads on the eggtoss, and it's hard, cause they can get away with just eggtossing, escaping any arcfire attempt with a double jump, and not really afraid of landing cause he can groundpound or user his eggtoss again to cover the ledge and land/grab safely...

Unless you have thoron, all of your proyectiles will clash with the eggs, or worst he will jump a little use an egg and hurt you...

I have huge problems with this match up, and I don't think it's a neutral state, same goes for megaman, both of them requires you to optimize all of your combos, and powerthrough their projectiles with an smart use of the sword and the tomes. Maybe it is just me, or the players I have faced are too good, but this 2 are characters that I find harder to deal with than ZZS.

Anyway... I believe Fox also has a slight advantage over robin, cause Fox will force robin to aproach, maybe this can be said about Falco too, but Fox is faster, lasers will force you to aproach no matter what, giving him more or less 7-10% damage on a whiffed arcfire, or if you want to charge arcthunder, so you most rely on your sword disjoint, to get some damage... the only thing going on for robin vs fox is the light weight and he's a fastfaller, meaning he can't escape arcfire and arcthunder and will be killed pretty early, also he must aproach to kill, or reflect a string projectile.

OK... now that I said what I wanted...

Robin is viable, it would be even more viable without that wind jab nerf, lol I can't stop ranting...

Robin is not a use it and start winning character, hell not even a use it for a while and start winning...
Robin requires an specific playstyle that should consider both characters and player playstyle you are facing, before going deep.
So don't expect a community that is distributed between 50+ charactersto just recognize that robin is a threat.

Robin is not solo viable, sorry but this is the thruth (prove me wrong... please), why cause robin will fail vs extremely campy players, any character(player) who stays out of the normal thunder range is in an advantageous position vs robin, why?, cause arcfire will get robin punished, robin cannot charge arcthunder safely, robin best moves are aerials, so robin can't go pressuring without being on risk of getting punished, and last but not least thunder hitstun is not that long, and they can just shield the next one and punish, or even worse perfect shield it... Robin is not a bad character, hell I don't even know if there is a bad character in this game, but there are some characters who get more rewarded by doing less, and we should live up with that...

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Rather than post about placings, talk to me about notable wins that Robin players have gotten (preferably recently). Most don't care about a placing when all they did was beat randoms.

Just wanted to drop in and say that Dath took out Anti at EVO and beat both MVD and Static Manny at Vitality, a reasonably large and reasonably stacked Florida tournament. That's Robin winning vs. one of the best Mario players, one of the best Diddy Kong players, and a noteworthy Sonic player, which conventional wisdom says are all losing matchups. Other people in this thread have already pointed out that Robin players have taken sets off of players who use typically higher-rated characters. Maybe this is matchup unfamiliarity, but I think a lot of it has to do with Robin having a kit that's generally underrated. Not necessarily great, but consistently slept on a bit more than it deserves to be.

I'd argue that Robin is solo-viable by virtue of having no absolutely unwinnable matchups. Her matchup spread isn't especially dominant (some players would argue it's mostly losing-matchups), but the worst she has to deal with (outside of ZSS, even though that's debatably as bad as people make it out to be) is a 60:40, which can be scary in the midst of a tournament where a dropped game can send you packing home, but doesn't really hold up as an excuse for losing. She doesn't have matchups like Falcon vs. Pikachu or Ganondorf vs. Shiek, where there are legitimate barriers in the way the characters are designed for the Falcon or Ganondorf player that might keep them from being able to take a set. She's obviously not going to get handed free games barring player skill or lack thereof, but there's never really going to be a situation where a Robin player needs to switch. So, is she solo-main viable? Absolutely. Is it a good idea? That's for the player to decide. Can she win a major? Honestly, it's Smash 4. Anything can happen. I can't say with confidence that she will definitely not. That's part of the beauty of this game.

 

[Nah]

just wanna point out that a) there are very few (if any) unwinnable MUs in this game, and b) having no unwinnable matchups =/=solo viable, nevermind that people are way too hung up on solo viability anyway

 

[Chapter]

Nah Ah, sorry for the incredibly late response. I've only just come back to SmashBoards today (to discus to new 4BR Tier List, no less). I'll take this one piece at a time I guess.

If Sonic does he can just run away the entire game and there's literally nothing Robin can do to catch him, and that's where Robin's bottom-tier mobility becomes a problem. If Robin gets the lead, then it kinda goes like how you describe. It's probably somewhat common for the Sonic to not play the MU right since Robin's not a common character and I'm sure a lot of them think "lol Robin's so slow I'ma do what I want".

Well, no. This is exactly why many believe Robin is low tier, despite it ignoring most aspects of the character. Robin doesn't ever need to approach, and Sonic's camping is inherently reliant on shield and SideB. Most of the time he'll SideB straight through your shield, or spam SideB > Shield in the corner. One, Sonic's combos are great but they aren't Arcthunder or DThrow combos. Certainy they deal a lot of damage, but he needs to tack on much more before he can kill Robin. This MU, for Robin, relies on never using Arcfire unless setting up on ledge, getting Arcthunder and Thoron as quickly as possible, and abusing disjoint to beat out his fantastic aerial options. You also need to punish his landing hard to retain a lead. If he can use UpB for free then you're going to lose, but it's easy to frame trap him with FAir > BAir or read Sonic's DAir and use UAir. But, if you think it's neutral then that's reasonable.

In this game's life it's been made very clear that mobility and frame data (with things like good hitboxes, your disadvantage state, and kill set-ups being important but to a lesser degree).

I disagree completely. If we're simplifying viability so such arbitrary and two-dimensional elements, then it would be Speed (frame-data included), Neutral, Killing, and Off-stage/Recovery. For instance; Sheik has the best Neutral in the game, nearly impossible-to-gimp recovery, and, frankly, stupid frame data, but can't kill. Cloud has everything except for Recovery (though his Off-stage fighting isn't garbage at all). Diddy Kong has everything, unless he has to use UpB to recover instead of SideB, in which case it's easy as hell to gimp him. Zero Suit has Agility, Kill Power, and Recovery, but her Neutral leaves something to be wanted (this is not to say that it's bad, but it isn't Sheik's Neutral or anything). I canh continue if you'd like but this is getting trivial. Robin has Neutral, Kill Power, and Off-stage. His speed is of course trash, and his recovery, while very far-reaching, is relatively easy to gimp. Rosalina's UpB is very similar in this regard. Now, how Robin makes up for his mobility and frame data (which, by the way, is bad but not something that becomes a real problem like Shulk or Zelda) with his NeutralB and aerial strength minus DAir. He doesn't need to approach in half of his match-ups, and the rest can be won with B-Reverse Arcthunders, platform camping (ban BF or FD, SV TC LC and DH are your best friends, DL is preference), and walling out. If you don't think that's good enough, well, whatever. This is all opinion after all.

Next, um.

Rather than post about placings, talk to me about notable wins that Robin players have gotten (preferably recently). Most don't care about a placing when all they did was beat randoms.

#HBC | ZoZo Dath has defeated Anti, Pink Fresh, Nietono, Xaltis, DJ Jack, True Blue, MVD, and recently won Vitality, one of the most stacked Florida monthlies in a while. Dath also took Void to Game 5 at Glitch, and Mr. R last-hit last-stock at CEO despite an SD. Mr. II has beaten Nairo. Skorpio has defeated Tyroy, JJRockets, and Nev. Can't really think of anything else right now, but that's a quite a bit.

Robin is not solo viable, sorry but this is the thruth (prove me wrong... please), why cause robin will fail vs extremely campy players, any character(player) who stays out of the normal thunder range is in an advantageous position vs robin, why?, cause arcfire will get robin punished, robin cannot charge arcthunder safely, robin best moves are aerials, so robin can't go pressuring without being on risk of getting punished, and last but not least thunder hitstun is not that long, and they can just shield the next one and punish, or even worse perfect shield it... Robin is not a bad character, hell I don't even know if there is a bad character in this game, but there are some characters who get more rewarded by doing less, and we should live up with that...

You can read through what else is here, because I can't argue this. It's very uninformed; most characters until around 30th are solo viable.

 

[Nah]

Chapter it's alright, I wasn't expecting any response quickly. Tell me though what Robin is supposed to do against someone who does not want to approach?

And a more general question, but why ban BF but not DL? Besides the wind-blowing tree, the two stages seem identical to me. Is there something I'm not seeing?

 

[Dream Cancel]

Chapter it's alright, I wasn't expecting any response quickly. Tell me though what Robin is supposed to do against someone who does not want to approach?

And a more general question, but why ban BF but not DL? Besides the wind-blowing tree, the two stages seem identical to me. Is there something I'm not seeing?

Just dropping by. Dream Land has a slightly lower ceiling (compared to BF) and there is a bit of horizontal space between the platforms of DL. Other than that, there's a chance of getting pineapple'd by the bottom of DL if you recover too low. That's it.

 

[Chapter]

Chapter it's alright, I wasn't expecting any response quickly. Tell me though what Robin is supposed to do against someone who does not want to approach?

And a more general question, but why ban BF but not DL? Besides the wind-blowing tree, the two stages seem identical to me. Is there something I'm not seeing?

As Bay6 said, Robin enjoys the space and lower ceiling for performing Checkmate.

When someone doesn't approach, Robin can approach using a running shield or short hop FAirs. That's pretty unlikely though because leaving Robin to charge is like leaving Cloud to charge Limit. It forces an approach because of how powerful Thoron and Arcthunder can be for Robin. Once either is prepared, it can be used to apply massive pressure or just as an intimidation tool.

 

[SaikaGaleforce]

honestly, i very much agree that robin could be competitive viable, but with the current robin meta, i am unsure whether or not i would say that robin is currently competitive viable. as it has been with several characters who were underplayed and considered not viable (greninja pre-istudying, for example), sometimes a character being competitively viable requires for a highly skilled player to figure out something about a character that makes them work competitively. with the current robin meta, and the fact that robin is often not considered competitively viable, i feel like the problem right now just is that no one yet has quite figured out how to use her in the way she would need to be used to work in high level play. the fact that robin is not often played contributes to this, in that there is not really much in the way of people innovating as robin, but this is something that i believe can and will change in the future, or at least as long as there is enough time of the meta evolving and changing before nintendo decides to replace smash4.