Amazing Ampharos' & Xiivi's General Brawl Ruleset & Reasoning

[Xiivi]

Introduction: For the past few weeks Amazing Ampharos and Xiivi have been discussing the legality of many things in Brawl, with the main focus on stages. As many of you are aware, the Smash Back Room (SBR) will not be releasing a ruleset for quite some time. The following is a ruleset we have created that we feel best fits Brawl for its current metagame and development time. However, this has no connection to the SBR and is an independent project, still ongoing. We realize that there are many diverse rulesets amongst Tournament Organizers (TOs) at this time, this is meant to be a precursor to the list the SBR will release in the future. We have put every stage to the test, playing every character and testing all potential problems with the stage we've had presented to us. The following is our results with detailed reasoning. This is meant to be a base guideline, and there will be many updates in the future as there are many more things left to be tested. If you feel there is something we may have overlooked, feel free to give input.


General Rules:

• Items are set to “None” with each individual item turned “Off”.*
• Stock matches will be used with stock set to 3.
• The time limit is set to a minimum of 120 seconds per stock.**
• All sets are best of three matches.
• In an event of a dispute, controller ports will be selected by using the “Random” feature when selecting names. The person who randoms the name that comes first alphabetically, numbers and symbols ignored (“9Volt” would be considered “Volt”), chooses first.
• Custom controls and all controller options are legal***. Rumble is also able to be turned on or off at a player's discretion.
• No player may choose a stage they have won on during the current set.
• Ties will be broken by lives, then percentages. In the event of an exact tie, the one stock sudden death will be played.
• Infinites such as King Dedede's standing chaingrab are allowed except when used to excessively stall the match.***
• Techniques such as Sonic's homing attack stall under the stage are banned when used to stall the match.
• Characters with easy mobility traveling under stages such as Jigglypuff, Pit, Meta Knight, etc... may do so only for recovery purposes and avoiding edgeguards. These may not be used to excessively stall the match.****
• Players who are late for matches will receive a warning followed by a loss of game followed by a loss of the set.*****
• Disqualifications for improper rule procedure are to be handled by TOs.
• Double Elimination play should be used with Pools play strongly recommended for larger tournaments.
• Loser's Finals, Winner's Finals, and Grand Finals should all at least be best of five matches.

*This still needs further testing; however, there are many reasons for this, and it is generally agreed.
**It is recommended 160 seconds per stock with 120 seconds used for time constraints only.
***It is highly recommended that wireless controller options be discourages due to issues with interference, battery life, accidental Wii power offs, and time hinderance. If these situations occur consider bans for individual use of these controller options.
****It is up to the discretion of the TO when a technique is used to excessively stall. It is recommended that once the damage meter goes beyond 250% it is considered stalling.
*****It is up to the discretion of the TO when aerial mobility beneath the stage is being used to stall the match. It is recommended that if a character passes beneath the stage more than two times it is stalling. It is also recommended that if a character spends more than 15 seconds beneath the stage it is excessively stalling.
******Time limits are at the discretion of the TO and depend greatly on size of tournament and time contraints.


Set Format:

1. Opponents choose their characters for the first match.*
2. Each player is allowed to ban two stages for the entirety of the set.**
3. The first stage will be played at random from the Neutral Stage List.***
4. The loser of the previous match announces the next match's stage from either the Neutral Stage List or the Counterpick Stage List.
5. The winner of the previous match chooses his character.
6. The loser of the previous match chooses his character.
7. Repeat steps 4-7 for all proceeding matches.

*Double blind character selection may be called for this match.
**Stages will be banned in order of 1-2-1. Player A will ban one stage before and after Player B bans two stages. In an event of a dispute, Player A and Player B will be determined by using the “Random” feature when selecting names. The person who randoms the name that comes first alphabetically, numbers and symbols ignored (“9Volt” would be considered “Volt”), becomes Player A.
***Opponents may instead agree on a Neutral stage.


Neutral Stage List
Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Battlefield
Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Final Destination
Super Mario Sunshine: Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island: Yoshi's Island
Kirby: Halberd
Star Fox: Lylat Cruise
Pokémon: Pokémon Stadium 2
Animal Crossing Wild World: Smashville
PictoChat: PictoChat
Super Mario 64: Rainbow Cruise*
Pokémon: Pokémon Stadium


Counterpick Stage List
Luigi's Mansion: Luigi's Mansion
Mario Kart: Mario Circuit*
Donkey Kong Jungle Beat: Rumble Falls
Zelda Twilight Princess: Bridge of Eldin*
Metroid: Norfair*
Metroid Prime: Frigate Orpheon
Fire Emblem: Castle Siege
Pikmin: Distant Planet
Super Mario World: Yoshi's Island*
Donkey Kong Country: Jungle Japes
EarthBound: Onett
Kirby: Green Greens
F-Zero: Big Blue*
Metroid: Brinstar


Banned Stage List
Super Mario Bros.: Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Super Mario Bros.: Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker: Pirate Ship
Pokémon: Spear Pillar
F-Zero: Port Town Aero Dive
WarioWare: WarioWare, Inc.
EarthBound: New Pork City
Ice Climber: Summit
Kid Icarus: Skyworld
Donkey Kong: 75m
Mario Bros.: Mario Bros.
Game & Watch: Flat Zone 2
Electroplankton: Hanenbow
Metal Gear Solid: Shadow Moses Island
Sonic the Hedgehog: Green Hill Zone
The Legend of Zelda: Temple
Star Fox: Corneria


*Stages under watch.


An easier way to see this comes from the following graphic:

Custom Stages are currently being discussed. It is currently recommended that if a TO wishes to allow Custom Stages that the TO verifies that each stage is present and identical on all Wiis at the tournament beforehand.


Additional Rule's for Double's Play:

• Life Stealing is legal.
• Team Attack is set to “On”.
• Stage changes for Doubles Play are currently being discussed.

Stage Neutrality, Counterpick, and Banishment Reasoning:


The following are not enough of a reason to move a stage to counterpick status:
Character Bias: Character bias is not enough to move a stay to counterpick status unless it is extreme. Falco vs. Ganondorf on Final Destination is an example of character bias that is not extreme enough thanks to the stage to move the stage to counterpick status.
Disruption of auto-canceling: This is not big enough of a character bias to force a stage into counterpick status at this current point in time.
Potentially being caught under the stage when attempting to recover to the ledge: This is unfamiliarity with the stage and completely in the player's control.
Temporary Walls and Walk-Offs: These are potentially avoidable until they disappear and grant not lasting positional advantage; they are not substantial enough to move a stage to counterpick status.


The following are enough of a reason to move a stage to counterpick status but not enough to move a stage to banned status:
Notable character bias: These stages favor or hinder certain character too greatly to leave the stage as neutral, however there is no match-up extreme enough to move the stage to banned status.
Interrupted Walls: These are walls where infinites can be interrupted. These favor a character enough to push it out of neutral status, however since these may be interrupted they do not warrant a ban.
Interrupted Walk-offs: These are walk-offs where infinites can be interrupted. These favor a character enough to push it out of neutral status, however since these may be interrupted they do not warrant a ban.
Other Walk-Offs and Walls: Some walk offs and walls are unique and have properties that could put them in counterpick status when they'd normally pose for a ban.


The following are enough to move a stage to banned status:
Presence of a “circle” or “loop”: Allows faster or more mobile characters to continually keep away from those with lower mobility once a lead is gained.
Radical hazards: Allows for the stage to completely turn the tide of a match with few or no actions a player can take to avoid this.
Extreme positional advantage: This is where the stage allows for a player to take a position once a lead is gained such that the other player will always be at an extreme disadvantage when attempting to approach.
Other Walk-Offs and Walls: Some walk offs and walls are unique and have properties that could put them in banned status when they'd normally pose for counterpick.
Extreme character bias: The stages allows for characters to perform actions that favor the match-up heavily enough that it is nearly impossible to beat.


Neutrality:


Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Battlefield
Possible Issues: None
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status.


Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Final Destination
Possible Issues: None
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status.


Super Mario Sunshine: Delfino Plaza
Possible Issues: Transformations resulting in walk-off edges, walls, lack of grabbable edges, and presence of water.
Reason for Neutrality: The majority of the match will be played on various platform layouts when the stage has not grounded. None of these show enough character bias to push the stage to counterpick status. There are many different potential problems with the grounded portions. Walk-offs, walls, water, and lack of grabbable edges are all potential problems that would push the stage to counterpick status due to character bias. However, each transformation lasts for a minimal time. Each transformation allows for enough room for a player to avoid each of these potential problems until the transformation ends, and the various landing locations favor different characters. Because of this, there is not enough character bias to move this stage out of neutral status.


Yoshi's Island: Yoshi's Island
Possible Issues: None
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status.


Kirby: Halberd
Possible Issues: Transformations involving walk offs as well as hazards.
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset the majority of the time. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status the majority of the time. The walk off at the beginning of the stage is easily avoided until the stage takes off thanks to the quick presence of a rising platform. The take off hazard is also easily avoided by simply being off the ground during the timeframe. The hazards occur very rarely and only allow for strategic use of the stage thanks to knowledge of the stage. Each hazard can be avoided in a variety of ways as well as used against an opponent with clever thinking.


Star Fox: Lylat Cruise
Possible Issues: None
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status.


Pokémon: Pokémon Stadium 2
Possible Issues: Transformations resulting in walls, altered traction, altered gravity, and conveyor belts.
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset the majority of the time. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status the majority of the time. Each of the transformations offer slight advantages and disadvantages for characters; however, none are to any extreme degree that could decide the outcome of a match in the short time frame given. No form can be depended on as they all randomly occur and are not in any set order. The wall on the ground transformation is one-sided with many platforms present allowing ease in mobility avoiding the wall. The wall is also sloped in a manner such that most infinites that would normally work do not. The ice transformation also allows for platforms slanted in a manner where the buffed ground combat can be avoided. The sliding on the ice simply allows for strategic use of spacing. The wind transformation gives a buffed aerial combat; however, it is easy to navigate back to the ground quickly thanks to airdodges, where you can still perform successful low short hops and focus on ground combat. The electric transformation once again has a platform layout that allows players to avoid the conveyor belts for the duration of the transformation with ease. The conveyor belts allow for strategic gameplay requiring quick spacing and careful recovery. None of these are radical enough to push the stage to counterpick status given their short timeframes.


Animal Crossing Wild World: Smashville
Possible Issues: None
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status.


PictoChat: PictoChat
Possible Issues: Transformations resulting in hazards and walls. Drawings potentially enclose a character giving unfair positional advantage.
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset the majority of the time. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status the majority of the time. This stage has 27 transformations and will remain blank half of the time. Each transformation will last for 13.33 seconds. The majority of the transformations would be considered neutral if they were presented as stand alone stages. No transformation will repeat until all transformations have been randomly cycled through. The hazards are all very easy to avoid with very little kill potential. These hazards are similar to those of Halberd in that they only allow for strategic use by a player and will not influence the match alone. In the unlikely event of a drawing enclosing a character, the set-up of the stage allows for players to simply wait out the transformation. There is no single transformation radical enough to move the stage to counterpick status, especially when the most it could ever be in a match is 13.33 seconds.


Super Mario 64: Rainbow Cruise*
Possible Issues: Stage movement.
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status. The only issue seems to be whether or not characters can safely navigate the stage while fighting. After testing characters with low horizontal and/or vertical mobility against characters with high mobility in matches, there were no problems that wouldn't normally have occurred in a match on any other neutral stage. The stage has very little influence on the game and basically exists as an ever-changing neutral layout. This stage is simply on watch as it seems it could potentially show character bias in the future enough to move it to counterpick status, however at this point there is none radical enough present.


Pokémon: Pokémon Stadium
Possible Issues: Transformations resulting in walls.
Reason for Neutrality: This stage lacks any potential problems not already addressed by the ruleset the majority of the time. Any character bias is minimal and not to a degree that would push the stage to counterpick status the majority of the time. There are three transformations resulting in walls. The fire and rock transformations are set-up such that the walls are easily avoided and your character may remain mobile. The water transformation has a windmill that simply poses as a moving wall. The wall is no different than the wall on the rock transformation other than it moves and doesn't touch the ground; the movement actually prevents it from being abused with standard wall infinites. None of these transformations are extreme enough to move this stage to counterpick status.


Counterpick:


Luigi's Mansion: Luigi's Mansion
Possible Issues: The pillars and the ceiling.
Reason for counterpick: The pillars allow for characters such as R.O.B. to effectively out camp other projectile users they normally wouldn't. The ceiling also allows for defensive characters to have a larger safety net. However this can all be quickly destroyed resulting in a pseudo-Final Destination. Nothing here is extreme; however, it is not neutral as it offers notable advantages.


Mario Kart: Mario Circuit*
Possible Issues: The hazards and the walk-offs.
Reason for counterpick: The cars pose almost no problem other than creating a sort of divide in gameplay allowing for defensive grounded gameplay. This is something to push the stage from neutral to counterpick given the layout. The only other notable concern in the walk-offs; however, when the cars pass over the top they can hit characters attempting to perform chainthrows off the side (such as King Dedede) resulting in openings that eliminate positional advantages. The stage is only on watch as the walk-offs may prove to be more broken than anticipated.


Donkey Kong Jungle Beat: Rumble Falls
Possible Issues: The spikes and the stage movement.
Reason for counterpick: The spikes are stationary hazards that deal a fair amount of damage. Many feel the spikes are instant kills; however, the 2nd and 3rd spikes won't kill until higher percentages and and the 1st spike can be easily teched every time. The spikes are also easy to navigate around. The stage movement is fine as even when the stage has sped up, lower mobility characters can easily move about the stage freely. Another note is that this stage has a wind effect that pushes characters up. An easy way to see this is to take Peach and float; she will move up along with the stage. Knowledge of this makes the stage even easier for lower mobility characters to navigate.


Zelda Twilight Princess: Bridge of Eldin*
Possible Issues: Walk-offs and hazards.
Reason for counterpick: The hazards are not too extreme and very simply to avoid. The stage simply poses as an extended version of final destination the majority of the time, however shows a more notable character advantage when the stage is broken apart. King Bulbin allows for openings to approach characters who attempt to abuse walk-offs. The stage is only on watch as the walk-offs may prove more broken than anticipated.


Metroid: Norfair*
Possible Issues: Hazards and notable character bias.
Reason for counterpick: All of the hazards are easily avoided. You can even shield or airdodge many of them. The platform layout gives notable advantages that push the stage to counterpick levels. However, one concern is that characters such as Meta Knight, Pit, and Jigglypuff can easily stall floating from platform to platform resulting in a positional advantage that can't be relinquished against more ground characters such as Fox who cannot approach safely and will result in more damage getting dished out to the offensive player and thus the stage is on watch.


Metroid Prime: Frigate Orpheon
Possible Issues: Stage Flip
Reason for counterpick: The stage offers an almost neutral layout for both transformations. The first layout lacks a grabbable edge, hurting some characters. The second layout has platforms extending from the side that allow characters like R.O.B. to have a notable advantage against characters that can't pursue as well. The stage flip can remove the advantages gained, however they can also lead to quick gimp kills on poor recovery characters such as Olimar and Captain Falcon. Nothing is too broken, but it is not neutral as it distorts match-ups by favoring and hindering some characters.


Fire Emblem: Castle Siege
Possible Issues: Transformations resulting in walk-offs, statues, transition changes.
Reason for counterpick: The first transformation and the third transformation are highly neutral. The second transformation and the transitional sections however place this stage in the counterpick category. The statues allow for great positional advantages for characters such as R.O.B. The walk-offs and transitional portions give an advantage for characters with infinites such as King Dedede as well. However, the stage is far from broken.


Pikmin: Distant Planet
Possible Issues: Walk offs, hazards.
Reason for counterpick: The walk-off cannot pose too much of an advantage as even characters without projectiles can take advantage of the pellets that spawn on the stage and use these to force the defensive player to pursue. The rain also eliminates this problem. However, the layout of the stage allows for characters such as Wolf to take advantage of the slope for good projectile control and place this stage into the counterpick category. The Bulorb plays almost no role in any matches here.


Super Mario World: Yoshi's Island*
Possible Issues: Walk offs.
Reason for counterpick: The stage offers a layout that poses for great projectile control for characters such as Wolf and pushes this stage into the counterpick category. However, the extreme slope of the walk-off hinders many infinites and doesn't provide much of a problem, yet the stage is on watch as there is nothing to hinder the walk-off from being exploited if something is found.


Donkey Kong Country: Jungle Japes
Possible Issues: Water and Hazards.
Reason for counterpick: The platform layout allows for notable advantages for characters such as Falco and is enough to push the stage to counterpick status. The water can actually help characters survive would they normally would not have. The main concerns are stalling in the water with characters such as Jigglypuff who can float out to the far right and jump out and continue. However this is quickly fixed by the other concern which is the hazard. The hazard provides problems for attempts to stall and forces the match to proceed normally. The hazard follows a set path and cannot kill at 0% with DI. The hazard is easily avoidable and survivable and is hard to exploit.


EarthBound: Onett
Possible Issues: Hazards, Walls, and Walk-Offs.
Reason for counterpick: The cars are easily shrugged off as hazards. The cars are similar to Ness's forward throw in that they scale very slowly in knockback with damage, allowing you to survive even when being hit at 500+%. They are very, very weak. However, these cars are important as they solve the remaining problems of walk-offs and walls with the stage. Any positional advantage of hiding behind a wall or walk-off must be relinquished when a car passes, allowing for the offensive player to take advantage of the defensive player. The cars also stop infinites before they can have a huge effect on the match.


Kirby: Green Greens
Possible Issues: Hazards and Walls.
Reason for counterpick: The hazards are completely negligible and simply allow for smart play. The walls and ceiling size are far from neutral for this stage, allowing characters like Fox to score quick low percentage kills. The walls are very hard to perform infinites on as a player can keep control of the blocks destroying them from time to time as needed.


F-Zero: Big Blue*
Possible Issues: Stage movement, positional advantages.
Reason for counterpick: This stage has many “problems”; however, it lacks any actual reasons for banishment other than unfamiliarity with the stage and little knowledge. The stage gives advantages to characters and disadvantages to others, making it a counterpick candidate. The road can be easily teched and survived by all characters. However, this stage is under watch for a few reasons. The stage is random in the track layout and the car layout (it changes for every match). Thus you can't truly memorize this stage like Rainbow Cruise or Rumble Falls. During some portions, characters such as Ness are able to camp on high floating platforms giving an unfair positional advantage against other characters; however, the platform can lower sometimes or move off screen getting rid of the positional advantage. The stage does alter normal gameplay some, but how much is the question.


Metroid: Brinstar
Possible Issues: Hazards.
Reason for counterpick: The stage favors some characters with its awkward shape and terrain changing potential, however there is nothing extreme. The lava is easily avoided and can't be exploited much outside of Ganondorf's ganoncide potential which is simply a clever tactic and nothing more.


Banishment:


Super Mario Bros.: Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Possible Issues: Extreme positional advantage, extreme character bias, and special walls and walk-offs.
Reason for banishment: The walk offs and walls next to the pipes can pose some problems with characters performing infinites on the walls waiting for the stages walk-offs to approach and cause quick easy kills. However, to make matters worse for this stage the scrolling and layout of the stage cause strong positional advantage for the player furthest right if they have reliable projectiles, such as Snake. Characters with low mobility are unable to approach thanks to the obstacle approach provided by characters such as Snake; however, the stage forces the characters to attempt to navigate through this, resulting in taking more damage than they are able to dish out before they get hit back to the left again and forced to fight through the stage.


Super Mario Bros.: Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
Possible Issues: Extreme positional advantage, extreme character bias, and special walls and walk-offs.
Reason for banishment: The walk offs and walls next to the pipes can pose some problems with characters performing infinites on the walls waiting for the stages walk-offs to approach and cause quick easy kills. However, to make matters worse for this stage the scrolling and layout of the stage cause strong positional advantage for the player furthest right if they have reliable projectiles, such as Snake. Characters with low mobility are unable to approach thanks to the obstacle approach provided by characters such as Snake, however the stage forces the characters to attempt to navigate through this, resulting in taking more damage than they are able to dish out before they get hit back to the left again and forced to fight through the stage. The layers of blocks cause further problems as vertical mobility also becomes a large factor. Characters such as Mr. Game & Watch are able to up special through many blocks allowing quick mobility and ability to position themselves in a spot where the opposing character will always take more damage upon approach than can be returned before the defensive player repositions.


The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker: Pirate Ship
Possible Issues: Extreme positional advantage, extreme character bias.
Reason for banishment: Once a lead is gained characters can easily camp within the water. Characters such as Game and Watch and Ike are able to instantly and safely use their up-specials out of the water and quickly return. Characters without projectiles are forced to approach as the stage transformations cannot effectively end this tactic. The rock still has a side of watch to camp in and when the ship fires bombs characters such as Game and Watch are able to use down airs to submerge themselves safely below the water. The only transformation that can come close to ending this is the tornado, which lasts for a short time and cannot be depended on within a match. The low gravity also allows for the stalling characters to float off of the stage until the water returns. Once a character is forced to pursue in the water, the number of usable moves quickly deteriorates and some character have no options against the tactic.


Pokémon: Spear Pillar
Possible Issues: The “circle” or “loop” present on the stage.
Reason for banishment: This stage is very large and the layout allows for characters with more mobility to keep away from their opponent the entirety of the match thanks to the loop present.


F-Zero: Port Town Aero Drive
Possible Issues: Radical hazards present.
Reason for banishment: The cars on this stage cross the line simply. The cars give a very low warning, with some portions of the stage offering no warning. The cars kill at low percentages, clocking in kills on middleweight Mario as low as 55%! There are portions of the track where lower mobility characters are unable to move out of the way of the cars given first warning. This forces characters to either risk death at any point due to the stage or constantly assume the worst that the cars are coming and fight at the far edges of many portions of the track. What ultimately put the ban mark on the stage was when it was found the cars can hit you when the main platform hasn't even landed and you are still traveling along the stage.


WarioWare: WarioWare, Inc.
Possible Issues: Radical hazards present.
Reason for banishment: Hazards may not be the best word when considering the rewards system, however that's simply for classification purposes. The stage would be perfectly fine, perhaps neutral, even with the minigames. However, the rewards system is simply faulted. There are many times where both you and your opponent pass a minigame, however one player gets the star invincibility while the other becomes larger. This radically favours one player and was entirely the stage's decision.


EarthBound: New Pork City
Possible Issues: The “circle” or “loop” present on the stage.
Reason for banishment: This stage is very large and the layout allows for characters with more mobility to keep away from their opponent the entirety of the match thanks for the multiple paths and circles present.


Ice Climber: Summit
Possible Issues: The “circle” or “loop” present on the stage.
Reason for banishment: This stage is very large and the layout allows for characters with more mobility to keep away from their opponent the entirety of the match thanks to the loop present.


Kid Icarus: Skyworld
Possible Issues: Extreme positional advantage, extreme character bias.
Reason for banishment: Mr. Game & Watch is able to stay on the bottom and continually use down airs to destroy the platforms quickly and effectively. He simply needs to wait for a grab at which point his down throw will spike through the clouds, resulting in instant kills on any character that cannot return such as Olimar. Many other characters are able to follow the same strategy with moves that spike. The solid platforms above allow for quick techs that allow characters to perform the spikes anyway. Thus, the characters don't need to relinquish the positional advantage in the area.

Donkey Kong: 75m
Possible Issues: The “circle” or “loop” present on the stage.
Reason for banishment: This stage is very large and the layout allows for characters with more mobility to keep away from their opponent the entirety of the match thanks for the multiple paths and circles present.


Mario Bros.: Mario Bros.
Possible Issues: The “circle” or “loop” present on the stage.
Reason for banishment: This stage is very large and the layout allows for characters with more mobility to keep away from their opponent the entirety of the match thanks for the multiple paths and circles present.


Game & Watch: Flat Zone 2
Possible Issues: Radical hazards present, extreme character bias, extreme positional advantage.
Reason for banishment: At first this stage actually appeared playable, with the Fire and Chef transformations being rather tame and Oil Panic being decent. However, the Lion poses as a radical hazard. Normally one could wait out such a transformation; however, some characters are able to use these transformations to make them nearly unbeatable by abusing powerful projectiles. Snake especially is able to force approach during the Oil Panic and Lion forms. Once a character is forced to approach, Snake is able to set-off the hazards a variety of ways making him impossible to touch as well as forcing opponents to sustain large amounts of damage quickly. This, coupled with Snake’s strong tilts and the fairly small edges on the stage, can quickly force the opponent into kill percentage and take advantage of the unfair positional advantage given by the transformations.


Electroplankton: Hanenbow
Possible Issues: The “circle” or “loop” present on the stage.
Reason for banishment: This stage is very large and the layout allows for characters with more mobility to keep away from their opponent the entirety of the match thanks for the multiple paths and circles present.


Metal Gear Solid: Shadow Moses Island
Possible Issues: Walls and walk-offs.
Reason for banishment: Unlike other stages with walls and walk-offs, this stage is defined by them. There is simply no place to avoid them safely. The walls are replaced by walk-offs if you destroy them, and the walk-offs replace themselves with walls when they respawn. Simply put, the stage does not allow for characters who cannot exploit these to win against characters who can which is aided by the majority of the match depending on high percentage kills due to the box-like shape of the stage.


Sonic the Hedgehog: Green Hill Zone
Possible Issues: Extreme positional advantage, walk-offs, and extreme character bias.
Reason for banishment: The walk-offs are the smallest problem with this stage, especially since they can't be forced into and most characters cannot infinite up the slope of the stage. The next problem comes from character bias and positional advantage that stem from the checkpoint. The checkpoint allows for characters to maintain a positional advantage where they can always dish out more damage than they take. Characters such as Jigglypuff and Sonic are able to take advantage of the unique shape of the stage and their spinning moves to quickly move from one point of the stage to the next, making them hard to approach, especially when the checkpoint is used to aid this. Other characters such as Fox are able to control the checkpoint from a distance thanks to projectiles and also force approach towards the checkpoint with these projectiles. When the stage divides this only furthers the problem as it further limits the approaching options of the offensive player. Once a lead is gained characters who can effectively control the checkpoint have the advantage they will never lose the remainder of the match. The checkpoint simply centralizes and degenerates gameplay in addition to these problems for characters who cannot effectively control it.


The Legend of Zelda: Temple
Possible Issues: The “circle” or “loop” present on the stage.
Reason for banishment: This stage is very large and the layout allows for characters with more mobility to keep away from their opponent the entirety of the match thanks for the multiple paths and circles present.


Star Fox: Corneria
Possible Issues: Hazards and the wall on the fin.
Reason for banishment: The hazards are not a problem and the layout of the stage allows for a good counterpick layout. However, the wall on the fin causes many more problems for gameplay than possible in the previous game. There are many forced infinites on the fin that can easily result in an entire stock from 0%. Once a character who can perform an infinite, of which there are many, gains a lead the player can simply wait by the fin, giving an extreme positional advantage. A simple shieldgrab of a character attempting to approach can result in an infinite. Eventually the gameplay deteriorates into a game of attempting to infinite your opponent first. If you are not playing a character with an infinite and lose the lead the match is lost.

 

[JCaesar]

I can't believe no one's said anything about this yet.

First of all I want to thank you for doing this. Every Brawl tournament I've been to (4 or 5 now) has had a different set of rules and it would be nice to have one accepted set to look at.

Why such a complicated method of deciding controller port? What's wrong with rock/paper/scissors? It takes all of 3 seconds.

But I'm sure you realize the most controversial aspect of this is going to be the stages. I'll just post a few of my thoughts.

I really like that you have so many neutral stages. It would really make the game more interesting (I know that's not a good argument). It works very well with your 2 stage strike method as well.

I never thought that very temporary walls/walkoffs (Delfino) or easily avoidable hazards (Halberd) were enough to warrant counterpick status. I'd be pretty hesitant to call Pictochat neutral though, when a giant bomb or flame can literally spawn right on top of you with no warning.

PS 2 and Rainbow Cruise may be annoying to fight on, but you're right, they aren't too extreme and could probably pass for neutral.

I think by your criteria Frigate Orpheon could be considered neutral. The stage flip has a few seconds of warning, so you can try to get to the center of the stage so you won't get gimped. Camping on the moving platforms on the edge of the second transformation can be a problem but only in a few matchups, and if you're playing against ROB you can use a stage strike on it. Other than that it has a fairly neutral layout.

Rumble falls is an interesting one. I don't even know what to say about it, except it's basically the IC's level from Melee and I don't know why anyone would ever want to fight there. Matches there really become more about fighting the stage than fighting your opponent. Also it basically eliminates every character's ground game, which changes the game significantly.

I wholeheartedly agree with all your bans except Pirate Ship. Yes you can camp in the water, but every 3 seconds or so you have to jump our and back in, and then you're completely helpless for a second or so. Most characters can jump out and punish you, not to mention anyone with a decent projectile shouldn't even have that problem in the first place.

I'm not fond of levels like Bridge of Eldin with permanent walkoffs. I think they're just too powerful against certain characters, and deserve a ban. I agree with you about Onett though, the walls/walkoffs can't really be abused there.

There's my feedback, thanks again for this.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Banned Stage List
Super Mario Bros.: Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Super Mario Bros.: Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
Fine

The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker: Pirate Ship
Not fine, should not be banned. Not even sure what the reasoning for this could be other than "ZOMG CANNON FIRES AT YOU" the cannon balls move ridiculously slow and is predictable, more over, it adds some strategy because you can now try and force your opponent into its path. If you get hit by a cannon ball, or by the launcher, it is no ones fault but your own.

Pokémon: Spear Pillar
Fine.

F-Zero: Port Town Aero Dive
Not fine, should not be banned. I usually see the car damage being cited as a reason, but, like the cannon balls, they come at specific times and in all but one location are easily avoidable (and in that one location they are still avoidable, its just a little more difficult). The problem seems to be people whining that if they get hit the cars kill at to low a percentage. Well, just learn to avoid them, why should we remove a stage just because you aren't good at dodging cars?

WarioWare: WarioWare, Inc.
EarthBound: New Pork City
Ice Climber: Summit
Fine, but summit could go either way.

Kid Icarus: Skyworld
Not fine. I see people moan about this stage for two reasons. First is the destructible environments screwing tether recoveries. Okay, if you play a tether recovery character, either learn to deal, or switch characters if this stage is a CP, tether recovery characters can be gimped easy on any stage, I guess we should just ban them all. The second reason is that destructible environments screw with some characters, just learn to deal. There is nothing broken/wrong with this stage.

Donkey Kong: 75m
Mario Bros.: Mario Bros.
Game & Watch: Flat Zone 2
Fine.

Electroplankton: Hanenbow
Not fine. I don't really have any idea what people think is so bad about this stage, its just DIFFERENT. Different =/= should be banned.

Metal Gear Solid: Shadow Moses Island
Not fine. People usually cite infinites, which can be avoided by destroying the walls or just by playing smart.

Sonic the Hedgehog: Green Hill Zone
Not fine. People usually cite walk off edges, which can be dealt with by about half the cast and the other half will just be at a disadvantage, hence counter pick.

The Legend of Zelda: Temple
Fine.

Star Fox: Corneria
Not fine. Counter pick, yes, banned, definitely not. The reasoning is usually the walls infinites, which you can avoid just by staying above the fine, or the stage projectiles, which you can see coming a mile away (except for the laser thingy, which you can avoid by staying under the fin or just above it if you are fighting with a character that could get infinited).

I understand your use of positional advantages, but at this point in Brawls life cycles, most of these advantages are rooted more in theory than fact. For example, Yoshi Island Pipes in Melee basically had a Fox win every match, confirming that although no real "broken" strategy existed, his advantages on the stage were simply so numerous that they couldn't be overcome by almost every character (it was not exclusively the shine infinites, but it was the shine infinites in conjunction with easy over the top KO's and a few other things). In other words, what your saying may be true, but it isn't true yet.

As for the pirate ship, again, more theory than fact, I love it when people are in the water versus my Diddy because it means easy spikes (and most characters have spikes). Also, if you are in the water to long, you drown, meaning you know the opponent must leave the water, the odis (SP?) is on you to learn how to counter them when they finally do leave the water.

 

[ColinJF]

AlphaZealot, I notice you use phrases like "Not even sure what the reasoning for this could be" in your reply. Did you notice that the section of the post after the image contains reasoning for each stage's placement? For most of the bans, the reasoning is different from what you have assumed (but your guess was right for a couple).

 

[Xiivi]

I can't believe no one's said anything about this yet.

First of all I want to thank you for doing this. Every Brawl tournament I've been to (4 or 5 now) has had a different set of rules and it would be nice to have one accepted set to look at.

This is not meant to be accepted by any means, it is still a very early tentative list up for plenty of input. But yes, this is set up to help TOs make wise decisions.

Why such a complicated method of deciding controller port? What's wrong with rock/paper/scissors? It takes all of 3 seconds.

Randoming a name also takes all of 3 seconds as well and people won't get into arguments as they can't accuse each other of cheating either.

But I'm sure you realize the most controversial aspect of this is going to be the stages. I'll just post a few of my thoughts.

I really like that you have so many neutral stages. It would really make the game more interesting (I know that's not a good argument). It works very well with your 2 stage strike method as well.

I never thought that very temporary walls/walkoffs (Delfino) or easily avoidable hazards (Halberd) were enough to warrant counterpick status. I'd be pretty hesitant to call Pictochat neutral though, when a giant bomb or flame can literally spawn right on top of you with no warning.

The bomb has set knockback and won't even kill you at 200%. The fireballs do 1% damage each time you hit them and also have almost zero knockback.

PS 2 and Rainbow Cruise may be annoying to fight on, but you're right, they aren't too extreme and could probably pass for neutral.

I think by your criteria Frigate Orpheon could be considered neutral. The stage flip has a few seconds of warning, so you can try to get to the center of the stage so you won't get gimped. Camping on the moving platforms on the edge of the second transformation can be a problem but only in a few matchups, and if you're playing against ROB you can use a stage strike on it. Other than that it has a fairly neutral layout.

Lack of a grabbable ledge on one of the transformations makes the stage a disadvantage for the same characters that the flip can destroy. Did you know the flip can separate Olimar from his pikmin? Even if Olimar acts accordingly the stage can easily gimp him in these two ways. There are also many more characters gimped. R.O.B. never has to go to the main platform during the second portion of the stage thanks to the floors that extend from the sides. It's a great stage that gives him great advantage as well as other characters and is not neutral by any means.

Rumble falls is an interesting one. I don't even know what to say about it, except it's basically the IC's level from Melee and I don't know why anyone would ever want to fight there. Matches there really become more about fighting the stage than fighting your opponent. Also it basically eliminates every character's ground game, which changes the game significantly.

It's not Icicle Mountain and that's the problem. People assume it is, when there are so many differences between the two that most people don't even know because they have never played the stage. Once you play the stage you see so many differences in mechanics between this and Icicle Mountain and realize this resembles Rainbow Cruise more than it does Icicle Mountain. It's a completely legit stage, you never have to fight it unless you don't know it.

I wholeheartedly agree with all your bans except Pirate Ship. Yes you can camp in the water, but every 3 seconds or so you have to jump our and back in, and then you're completely helpless for a second or so. Most characters can jump out and punish you, not to mention anyone with a decent projectile shouldn't even have that problem in the first place.

Characters like Ike and Game and Watch can perform their up special right as they jump out of the water making characters such as Falco have no chance of doing anything to them without taking more damage themselves.

I'm not fond of levels like Bridge of Eldin with permanent walkoffs. I think they're just too powerful against certain characters, and deserve a ban. I agree with you about Onett though, the walls/walkoffs can't really be abused there.

There's my feedback, thanks again for this.

King Bulbin offers plenty of openings to take an offense on the player attempting to use the walk-offs.

The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker: Pirate Ship
Not fine, should not be banned. Not even sure what the reasoning for this could be other than "ZOMG CANNON FIRES AT YOU" the cannon balls move ridiculously slow and is predictable, more over, it adds some strategy because you can now try and force your opponent into its path. If you get hit by a cannon ball, or by the launcher, it is no ones fault but your own.

You did not read the reasoning and instead through arguments that were not even made into our mouths. We agree that the stage should not be banned for such a reason.

F-Zero: Port Town Aero Dive
Not fine, should not be banned. I usually see the car damage being cited as a reason, but, like the cannon balls, they come at specific times and in all but one location are easily avoidable (and in that one location they are still avoidable, its just a little more difficult). The problem seems to be people whining that if they get hit the cars kill at to low a percentage. Well, just learn to avoid them, why should we remove a stage just because you aren't good at dodging cars?

You did not read the reasoning and instead through arguments that were not even made into our mouths. We agree that the stage should not be banned for such a reason.

Kid Icarus: Skyworld
Not fine. I see people moan about this stage for two reasons. First is the destructible environments screwing tether recoveries. Okay, if you play a tether recovery character, either learn to deal, or switch characters if this stage is a CP, tether recovery characters can be gimped easy on any stage, I guess we should just ban them all. The second reason is that destructible environments screw with some characters, just learn to deal. There is nothing broken/wrong with this stage.

You did not read the reasoning and instead through arguments that were not even made into our mouths. We agree that the stage should not be banned for such a reason.

Electroplankton: Hanenbow
Not fine. I don't really have any idea what people think is so bad about this stage, its just DIFFERENT. Different =/= should be banned.

You did not read the reasoning and instead through arguments that were not even made into our mouths. We agree that the stage should not be banned for such a reason.

I'm not even continuing this. I did not expect you of all people to make a post like this. I'm severely disappointed. You made some points at the end of your post that actually showed you might have read our reasonings. But what I've quoted above is you tossing words into our mouths and is probably the worst response I could have expected.

I understand your use of positional advantages, but at this point in Brawls life cycles, most of these advantages are rooted more in theory than fact. For example, Yoshi Island Pipes in Melee basically had a Fox win every match, confirming that although no real "broken" strategy existed, his advantages on the stage were simply so numerous that they couldn't be overcome by almost every character (it was not exclusively the shine infinites, but it was the shine infinites in conjunction with easy over the top KO's and a few other things). In other words, what your saying may be true, but it isn't true yet.

I agree with this. However, this list is more liberal than any list used for tournaments in Brawl right now by far. As I said it is still under construction and many things can be relooked at. Hence why this was posted so other users could see the reasoning of other users and respond to that reasoning. Which you did not do. You through arguments made by others instead of addressing ones that were made by us. I hope you know how disrespectful that is, especially when it comes from someone I respect on this site. However for that person to ignore my points made and completely disregard my points, I don't even know what to say; this really irritates me.

As for the pirate ship, again, more theory than fact, I love it when people are in the water versus my Diddy because it means easy spikes (and most characters have spikes). Also, if you are in the water to long, you drown, meaning you know the opponent must leave the water, the odis (SP?) is on you to learn how to counter them when they finally do leave the water.

I can agree that it is more theory. And we never meant just sit in the water. Characters such as Game and Watch and Ike can use their up specials right as they jump out of the water and quickly return over and over again, making them very hard to do anything to as a character such as Fox.

Personally, I could easily see the following stages being open since they are mostly banned based on theory testing (which is bad, but it may be hasty): Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, Pirate Ship, Port Town, Skyworld, Green Hill Zone, Shadow Moses Island, Corneria, Flat Zone 2.

I defended some of these, Amazing Ampharos defended others. We both found points which we felt could pose as possible reason to ban them. However, this list was made with the intention of being very liberal. We're both very open to opening up as many stages as possible, but we'd like for people to disprove the points we made instead of disproving points they want to disprove.

I don't mean to be harsh, as I want to have intelligent discussion in this thread. No hard feelings.

AlphaZealot, I notice you use phrases like "Not even sure what the reasoning for this could be" in your reply. Did you notice that the section of the post after the image contains reasoning for each stage's placement? For most of the bans, the reasoning is different from what you have assumed (but your guess was right for a couple).

Thank you for reading the post. I'm glad you read the whole post.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

This was really well thought out, Viivi and AA. I enjoyed the read.
As you guys are looking for feedback, I'll give you some on the three stages I feel are misplaced. Maybe they're just fine, but here's my input on:

Super Mario Sunshine: Delfino Plaza
Donkey Kong Jungle Beat: Rumble Falls
EarthBound: Onett

Super Mario Sunshine: Delfino Plaza
Possible Issues: Transformations resulting in walk-off edges, walls, lack of grabbable edges, and presence of water.
Reason for Neutrality: The majority of the match will be played on various platform layouts when the stage has not grounded. None of these show enough character bias to push the stage to counterpick status. There are many different potential problems with the grounded portions. Walk-offs, walls, water, and lack of grabbable edges are all potential problems that would push the stage to counterpick status due to character bias. However, each transformation lasts for a minimal time. Each transformation allows for enough room for a player to avoid each of these potential problems until the transformation ends, and the various landing locations favor different characters. Because of this, there is not enough character bias to move this stage out of neutral status.

I'm a fan of a non-static stages in general, such as Rainbow Cruise, but, while the transitions on this stage last individually for a short time, they seem to add up. The majority of the transitions seem to have partial water parts, and when they don't they either have walls or walk-off edges. In fact, there are usually more than one present in these transitions, while the non grabbable ledge is only in one, if I recall. The presence itself doesnt seem to be the problem because of it's changing nature, but the abundance throughout the stage may be.
Someone like G&W (who I will be mentioning a lot in my post) has the potential to abuse the walls and the water, whereas a character like Bowser will end up trying to avoid the stages transitions throughtout the match. There are some parts that are more invasive than others, such as the one with the walled in center, with a walkoff to both sides and a small patch of water on the left. This presents a problem, as a character such as Dedede or DK can wall "infinite" (not really because of the changes, but it's a large chunk of damage that may lead into a killing move instantly) or carry them off, almost regardless of where they go. If a character prone to these transitions ends up here, it changes their game play a lot more than any neutral should.

Another problem is actually with the main platform. This presents recovering issues with moves like Falco's illusion or Captain Falcon's Falcon Uppercut. This can be attributed to lack of stage knowledge, but theres still the margin for error even when you know it by heart that is present when you Side B. If you did it a little too early, you may fall victim and go through the platform.

This stage should be under watch, I do believe.
More input should be considered.

Donkey Kong Jungle Beat: Rumble Falls
Possible Issues: The spikes and the stage movement.
Reason for counterpick: The spikes are stationary hazards that deal a fair amount of damage. Many feel the spikes are instant kills; however, the 2nd and 3rd spikes won't kill until higher percentages and and the 1st spike can be easily teched every time. The spikes are also easy to navigate around. The stage movement is fine as even when the stage has sped up, lower mobility characters can easily move about the stage freely. Another note is that this stage has a wind effect that pushes characters up. An easy way to see this is to take Peach and float; she will move up along with the stage. Knowledge of this makes the stage even easier for lower mobility characters to navigate.

I'm unsure where the stage should fall. Nothing here merits a hasty ban, but some tactics may prove to be prevalent here.

Character movement is the main issue. While, yes, any character can navigate this stage quite well under neutral conditions, it's rarely the case. Anyone with high mobility will be able to disrupt any or most attempts at keeping up with the rising stage, especially during the "Speed Up" phase. People with small jumps and recoveries that give a larger horizontal recovery than vertical will have issues with staying unharmed and with keeping up. Bowser, because he's such a prime example, has to make it from plat from to platform, while G&W can easily pepper him with a large amount of damage. Attempts at fending a speedy character like G&W will be largely ineffective. Another foreseeable scenario is here with maneuverable characters stalling throughout the stage. As long as you can operate it better than the opponent, there arent many points where you can be caught. Also, with this in mind, G&W can Uair stall at the bottom area to be always in a favorable position.

There are some other issues with this stage that aren't as apparent.

-Walk-Off portions. This gives an obvious advantage to characters like Dedede, IC's, DK, and Falco.
-Walls. There are actually places in this stage where a wall technique may be used. It isnt infinite, but the damage that is able to be racked up or the position of the victim afterwards is less than favorable.
-Tech-able surfaces. These frequent the level and can provide some "cave of life"-like scenarios.

Combined, these are quite hard to deal with. They are also abundant because of this "Speed Up" phase which forces you to different parts of the level quicker. DK will be able to cargo hold you off the edge, hold you as the stage rises during the ceiling sections, throw or carry you into spikes, dtilt against a wall, and spike your efforts at keeping up.

More about the walls: These don't seem to be such an issue until you think about the rising. Whether or not the move is an infinite or not matters little as long as it locks your opponent in place long enough for the stage to rise. You should be able to react fast enough to get off the places with walls that you're opponent cant. Also, maybe they do manage to make it out in time. If they're recovery is still lacking, they have the risk of dieing to the rising still, or be at a pretty huge positional disadvantage.

This stage offers:

Presence of a “circle” or “loop”: Allows faster or more mobile characters to continually keep away from those with lower mobility once a lead is gained.
Extreme positional advantage: This is where the stage allows for a player to take a position once a lead is gained such that the other player will always be at an extreme disadvantage when attempting to approach.
Other Walk-Offs and Walls: Some walk offs and walls are unique and have properties that could put them in banned status when they'd normally pose for counterpick.
Extreme character bias: The stages allows for characters to perform actions that favor the match-up heavily enough that it is nearly impossible to beat.

to varying degrees.

I'm a fan of this stage and it's music, but it may see some serious issues if allowed in competitive play. More testing should be done, in my opinion.

EarthBound: Onett
Possible Issues: Hazards, Walls, and Walk-Offs.
Reason for counterpick: The cars are easily shrugged off as hazards. The cars are similar to Ness's forward throw in that they scale very slowly in knockback with damage, allowing you to survive even when being hit at 500+%. They are very, very weak. However, these cars are important as they solve the remaining problems of walk-offs and walls with the stage. Any positional advantage of hiding behind a wall or walk-off must be relinquished when a car passes, allowing for the offensive player to take advantage of the defensive player. The cars also stop infinites before they can have a huge effect on the match.

The main issue with this is actually camping. Despite what was mentioned about cars forcing a player to give up a favorable position, this doesnt work as well in practice. I'll focus on the left most area of Onett.

I played ColinJF here before, and he abused the leftmost area. All you need to do is stall at the bottommost area, and the opponent is forced to approach. Once they get the lead, it's ridiculous trying to force them out of this position. Cars do not stop this. A simple side step or shield keeps them in the same spot. There is a very slim time frame to take advantage of this "vulnerability" that most characters can react fast enough. The cars do little to deter the camping in this one spot. Also, while you're here, theres a wall and a walkoff. The prime place to be.

You can also chill out on the rightmost side, to a lesser extent. The roof of the house hinders most approaches, and the edge is much closer here, making low percent deaths quite common.

Oh, and infinites cant be done here? What about the overhanging above the door to the left of the center plaza? Jab locks will be done indefinitely here if you don't tech, and maybe the same can be done with the laser lock. Other wall locks can be done here, but the angle doesnt make them infinite, I don't think. Maybe Dedede can still do this. ike's Fthrow possible, too? Dtilt "infinites" can be performed well here, and I also think they're possible on the chimney to the right. More testing required?

The camping is the biggest issue, and the cars do little to deter this.
Oh!

on the note of camping, G&W can camp down there quite effectively with Uair stalling. if they airdodge, he's still in the better position.



Thanks for the time it took to make this thread.
I hope I wasn't unreasonable with my things.
I didnt go into the most detail, I know, but I'm going to assume you get what I'm poking at.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'll have more to add later, but one note is that to our testing there were actually zero walk-offs on Rumble Falls. Those "walk offs" that seem to be there actually end off-screen. Also, we tested running forever, and it just doesn't work on Rumble Falls.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Even in the most extreme cases? It doesnt have to be G&W vs Bowser. Maybe work with Sonic vs Ganny.
And are you sure about that?
I know the "walkoff" at the beginning isnt truly a walkoff, but there are many more that I was pretty sure were true walkoffs. They still give a pretty big advantage to those who can carry across the stage, like Dedede and DK. Also, you can consider the bottom of this rising stage as a sort of faux walk-off.

I'll do my own testing with this against some people, and I'll let you two know if I can do this effectively.
Expect some recordings if this does work out.

 

[Ulevo]

Wow, leave it to AA to come up with something like this. Kudos to you as well Xiivi, I'm surprised no one has really paid attention to this.

Stages I would like to address:

Lylat Cruise: This is being more nit picky than anything really, but I would be open to consideration for Counter Pick. Over all I believe it to be a Neutral, but the tilting seems to have a negative impact on the recovery of many characters, such as Diddy, Space Animals, Marios Bros., et cetera. I was mostly pointing this out as there wasn't anything noted for "Possible Issues".

Rainbow Cruise: I would vote this to be a Counter Pick based on mobility problems for characters with poor jumps, poor recovery, or slow maneuverability. Certain characters have an easy navigation while others may have trouble keeping up on specific ends of the stage.

Mario Circuit: Despite the constant barrage of karts barreling through, this stage is a walk off. Due to the small size of the stage, it may be found difficult to avoid Dedede on this level, especially with his grab range (provided Dedede doesn't have a stock lead and you are forced to engage him on the ground). I also find the cars to be a constant disruption, but that sort of hazard may be negligible since they don't kill until around 130-170%, give or take the weight of a character.

Bridge Of Eldin: The walk off trait has already been addressed, so I will skip that. I think the relative size of this stage poses a problem. Certain characters, such as Sonic, Pit or Meta Knight would be able to abuse the timer by simply running away or gliding throughout the level once a percent or stock lead is taken. Camping is also an issue, as characters like Falco have free reign with their projectiles. This is even more obvious during the time when the bridge has been broken, as characters are forced to approach and are at a large disadvantage if they do so, although the bridge eventually reforms.

Jungle Japes: I am curious as to the specifics on why this isn't neutral. It isn't overly large and all it has is platforms, water, and a claptrap. You mentioned Falco having advantages on this stage, but I cannot see that differing from Final Destination. The claptrap effects anyone and everyone on that stage, and any strategic advantages given by the water is fixed by the claptrap, as you already stated.

Onett: Not much to say other than I support the idea that camping to the left might be a problem. The cars come consistently, so the walls present no dilemma with regards to Dedede.

Big Blue: The space animals have a field day shining you onto the roads, so I can see a problem with that. This also goes for any similar strategies a character could conjure up, but I'm ignorant to this stage in general.

Overall, very constructive analysis and quite useful. You have my thumbs up.

 

[petrie911]

I think Castle Siege should be promoted to neutral. The transitional phases are temporary walkoffs, no worse than Delfino. The only problem is the 2nd stage, which is incredibly difficult to successfully camp in. you can camp by the blast line, but your opponent can stay on the other side of the stage. The statues nicely block the blast line camper's projectiles, and even then, they'd be hard pressed to hit you if you're on the upper platform. At worst it just interrupts things temporarily, which is no worse than the Rock or Fire transforms of Pokemon Stadium 2. I say Neutral.

I'm also strongly tempted to say Luigi's Mansion for neutral. Aside from the fact I love that stage to death, the mansion isn't too hard to destroy, and no character is so solely reliant on projectile spam that the interference of the mansion will greatly hinder them any more than FD benefits them.

Other than that, I really don't think the loop is as much of a problem as you think it is on The Summit. The stage really isn't that big, and as long as it's in CP, you'll have enough warning to not pick a slow character. And let's face it, no one should be maining two slow characters. Anyways, the fish and the non-grabbably ledges present another issue, but I still think this one should go in CP until tournament data proves it must be banned.

Similarly, you seem to be overstating the effect the checkpoint has on GHZ. it changes location after a while, so it can't permanently help camping. It's not really that much of an interference when it is on the stage, it gives you warning where it's going to come up before you are able to activate it, and it's not even on the stage the whole time. The dip in the stage actually helps with edge camping, as the edge camper is disadvantaged on the higher ground. The issue with rolling attacks seem to be no more prevalent than on Bridge of Eldin, as most characters have an attack that penetrates rolling attacks, and they can get to the other side just as quickly as on the bridge. Overall, this stage really seems to present the same problems as the bridge, and I really think that they should either be both banned or both allowed.

Otherwise, I really like the list. Seeing Rainbow Cruise, Pictochat, Halberd, the Pokemon Stadiums, and Delfino all in neutral is awesome, and you had the sense not to ban Norfair.

Nicely done AA, though I suppose I should expect nothing less from you. You too, Xiivi, although I don't know you as well as AA.

 

[Kyari]

Amazing Ampharos posts here? The ****, lol.

How's the Pokemon scene going?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm pretty sure that none of the areas on Rumble Falls are actually walk-offs, but later tonight I'll thoroughly test every one (there might be one random walk-off or something stupid, but I really doubt it).

Lylat Cruise: The odds of the stage tilting away quickly just as you recover are really low, and usually it's possible to account for the tilting with good aim. I agree that Lylat Cruise is a very obnoxious level, but as of now, it just doesn't seem like the tilting is substantial enough to be a concern.

Rainbow Cruise: I thought that at first too, but when we tested it, it just didn't seem like low mobility characters actually had problems. It's non-intuitive, but there is a ton of land in the stage, and even in the "dangerous" part (between the boat and the long, continuous platform in the upper-right), the carpets do a solid job of providing a huge net of safety, especially if you have enough course knowledge to know where is safe to jump when an object is slightly off-screen. I would agree that the stage needs to be watched, and I would agree that the idea of it as a neutral is somewhat unsettling. However, I haven't seen much in the way of testing that suggests that the traditional reasons for it to be a counterpick actually hold up (on the contrary, my personal experiences are strongly suggesting that it doesn't hold up).

Mario Circuit: It's obviously a good King Dedede stage, but the question with walk-offs on stages with no other problems is just how overpowering they are. Is King Dedede actually better overall than Snake/Mr. Game & Watch/Meta Knight on Mario Circuit? It was definitely marked for a reason as the answer very well may be yes, but so far what I've seen happen on this particular level suggests that it's just fair enough to be alright.

Bridge of Eldin: Take what I said about Mario Circuit and push the limit a bit more really. This stage actually makes me very uneasy the more I play on it, but I think we are best off seeing how tactics here evolve before making a hasty ban.

Jungle Japes: A big factor that hasn't been mentioned (though it should have been) is that those very small platforms to the sides are great for defensive players (see also: Green Greens). Characters like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Pikachu with amazing sweeping downsmashes and good options after landing a grab gain a whole lot just by camping those. Xivii might have more to say about this stage, but I'm pretty sure the winners and losers of it are a bit too big for neutrality.

Onett: Camping the left was probably working in the matchup Mr. Escalator described because Colin uses Ness who has Pk Thunder to make waiting to approach a less satisfying option. My experiences suggest that in the greatest majority of matches the disruption of the car is enough to break the camping (because you're basically giving them the advantage of being very close to the blast line when you somehow evade the car... or just get hit). We'll have to see though, and I'd say that the current situation isn't enough to warrant a ban.

Big Blue: That's actually easier said than done, especially if you are Falco or Wolf with their very low knockback shines. The biggest winners here so far seem to be the great aerialists that don't care about the discontinuous ground, and Fox definitely isn't in that group. However, you do get on the point that stage knowledge about this stage is very low right now in the community in general due to the stigma it has. Xivii and I argued for a very long time about Big Blue, and in the end we put it where it is because we just had tons of questions and no answers.

Castle Siege: We both expected this to be a neutral when we started testing it out, but I proposed that I had noticed it was a pretty good R.O.B. level earlier. It turns out that it's not just pretty good for him; it's amazing. On the first form, R.O.B. is a winner due to the way his laser fired straight horizontal can always hit them wherever on the ground he is standing (that slight change of altitude is just the right height for it while blocking many other projectiles!) and his ability to hit both platforms with up smashes from the ground. The second form lets him camp to the side with his laser spam while opponents other than Ivysaur cannot use projectiles through the statues (and Ivysaur loses the spam war with R.O.B. anyway). If they get close, they have to fear R.O.B.'s powerful throws that can kill them off the walk-offs. Then the transitional form when the next form isn't the second is just stupidly good for him. He just backs up really far and spams, and some characters are forced to just play the evasion game. If they dare approach him, he just turtles until the new form comes up and both of them are well over the pit. A quick down aerial later and they are dead from his spike. The stage is obviously fair enough to be allowed, but the sum of advantages here just seemed too big for a neutral (it's R.O.B.'s second best counterpick in my opinion, with the best being Luigi's Mansion).

A technical point petrie. The fire and rock forms are on Pokemon Stadium, not Pokemon Stadium 2.

The issue with Luigi's Mansion is that some characters gain a whole lot from camping inside of the tech area. R.O.B. is the character we found that just loves this stage to death. His down smash goes from "good to spam" to "insanely good to spam" in that area, and his laser penetrates those pillars while protecting him from counter-spam. If they go up top to destroy the mansion, he just sits underneath and pummels them with up aerials. If I recall, his up smash (his most deadly finisher) even his high enough to nail them. For some characters like Pit, the stage offers absolutely no help and generally just forces them to try to avoid damage while focusing on the mansion. I agree that it's a wonderful stage; it's probably the stage with the most tactical depth in the game. It just doesn't seem like neutral material to me.

The loop on the Summit is pretty easy to run really; it makes matches go from "play well" to "don't bother". I'm going get this recorded later tonight with a friend (along with Hanenbow's loop) and have it put up on youtube; I'll post it then. Also, this wasn't mentioned, but Sonic, Mr. Game & Watch, and everyone else who can move vertically very fast can camp near the water and jump in and out really fast to bait the fish which is too fast for an approaching Bowser (or someone similarly suckily slow) to avoid. That's not really a reason to ban it by itself, but it's a really dumb tactic that gives a huge advantage.

You are just underestimating the checkpoint on Green Hill Zone. It's so powerful for controlling space, and it lets you do things with total impunity behind it that can get very unfair (charging Rollout and using Pk Thunder are the two that really stand out).The way it disappears is really bad more than good since it is actually just randomly giving players huge positional advantages which adds a large luck element to the stage. I really disagree with it being similar to the Bridge of Eldin; the walk-off on Green Hill Zone is really just an extra "this isn't helping" thing (it also makes Ness's Pk Thunder camping even better since his forward throw abuses that walk-off handily). Seriously, I have had multiple matches there that were just me using Rollout with Jigglpuff over and over again. The curve actually messes up most of the usual counters to that sort of spam and seems to make her move faster (brawl has funky physics so it wouldn't surprise me if it really did); it's just too good.

The Pokemon scene is alright though going through its own ruleset controversies (those are perpetual everywhere, aren't they?). I can't lie though; I play way more brawl than Pokemon these days.

I'm glad that this is getting a pretty decent reception so far, and I hope I've provided clarification on those stages. Xivii doubtless has some more he could add as well. I'll be posting again later tonight with those videos of the loops as well as some footage of Pirate Ship in its full glory.

 

[petrie911]

I was hoping that it wouldn't be the case, but I had noticed ROB has a bit of an advantage on those stages. Still, I suppose both stages are probably going to be popular counterpicks due to interfering with most projectiles. But still, couldn't we just ban ROB instea--*gets killed by Overswarm*

Well, I never liked The Summit anyways, so I'm not too sore about its ban, but I still think that GHZ deserves CP. I've played a lot on the stage and never had the problems you've described. If Eldin gets the ban, then I can see GHZ getting it, too, but as long as Eldin is in, I really don't see GHZ getting banned.

And to Ulevo, as an Ike main, I can tell you that Jungle Japes is an absolute nightmare for Ike. No cover against projectile spammers, the side platforms are camper heaven, the high ceiling prevents vertical KOs until very large percentages, the fairly long sides means he's not getting some nice low % side KOs to make up for it, and to top it all off, if he falls in the water near the left side, he's going to have trouble even making it back to the stage due to his low second jump. It's really not pleasant.

 

[Ulevo]

Thank you for the clarification Ampharos. I think I will definitely need to play a few more Jungle Jape rounds to be totally convinced on that one, but the rest is quite reasonable. I'm interested in watching the loop videos as well.

On a side note, any drastic changes in the Pokemon Tier List recently? I haven't been on Shoddy in ages. Too busy Brawling.

@petrie911: Aside from the recovery from the water, I can't envision those problems being too drastic. Ike has issues with projectiles anyway and is forced to approach on stages such as Final Destination. He also doesn't have issues pummeling people regardless of the level size from what I find. I might just be being stubborn on this one.

 

[beefbutcher88]

Wow Amir, it's almost like you're a serious smash player now what with your really long posts about rulesets and such.

 

[petrie911]

To further elaborate on the Pirate ship ban, Ike can not only Aether right out of the water, but if he hits you with it, you'll die. The reason is that Aether will spike you into the water. If that doesn't kill you outright (which it probably won't, as it's a weak spike), Ike should have just enough time to hop out of the water and dair you before you can recover. And that WILL kill you at any percent.

So, ruleset controversies in Pokemon, eh? What, are they finally going to ban Stealth Rock, quite possibly the worst thing to happen to Pokemon since Double Team? (or have they already done that? I haven't been keeping up with the Pokemon scene, either...)

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Nitpicking:

The second form lets him camp to the side with his laser spam while opponents other than Ivysaur cannot use projectiles through the statues (and Ivysaur loses the spam war with R.O.B. anyway).

I was under the impression that Olimar's Pikmin could also make it past the statue.

---

Onett: Camping the left was probably working in the matchup Mr. Escalator described because Colin uses Ness who has Pk Thunder to make waiting to approach a less satisfying option. My experiences suggest that in the greatest majority of matches the disruption of the car is enough to break the camping (because you're basically giving them the advantage of being very close to the blast line when you somehow evade the car... or just get hit). We'll have to see though, and I'd say that the current situation isn't enough to warrant a ban.

No, no, the problem isn't the PKT at all. If you notice, I'm proudly wearing G&W as my icon (and we've played a few 2v2's before". The bucket deters the use of PKT, whether they worry about the attack, or that it can unstale my moves. Point is, that wasn't the problem. It could become one, but ah well.

I don't believe the car is as much as a disruption to discourage or make camping any less viable or prevalent. While you're certainly near a blastzone (i.e. the walkoff), you also happen to be next to a wall. To avoid the car, you can jump, shield, roll, or dodge. The car happens for a small timeframe. Now, how many characters can make it from the roof of the house and down fast enough to take advantage of this timeframe? Probably not many. While there is a time where the defense may weakened, the character can usually recover to perform a safe enough move to punish those who'll come down. The best characters who are able to camp will probably prove to be characters who can make dodging the car just as safe as simply idling there. G&W can jump over the car and Uair to keep them away, and Dedede can use his lingering Uair to help.

It doesnt help that this prime camping position is next to a wall AND the edge of the screen. Dedede will be able to CG against the wall and finish off with a Bthrow at low enough percentages, before the car even makes its visit.

But

You're right. The best thing that can be done is waiting to see how this stage develops. Maybe some extra testing, or have others try it out. Maybe some deeper looking into possible abusable character strategies.

I'll leave it at this for now

AA, you should go on #smash with Colin. It'd certainly be interesting for us to have you around.

 

[Patsie]

I'm not even continuing this. I did not expect you of all people to make a post like this. I'm severely disappointed. You made some points at the end of your post that actually showed you might have read our reasonings. But what I've quoted above is you tossing words into our mouths and is probably the worst response I could have expected.


I don't mean to be harsh, as I want to have intelligent discussion in this thread. No hard feelings.

Thank you for this, and welcome to why I (now) hate debating rulesets on these forums. There is almost no engagement that exists whatsoever. People either a) make up their own justification for why you think you did something or b) completely misinterperet your argument, with the majority of people leaning towards the former.

The biggest tragedy is that people with zero creativity or originality will probably start coming into the thread and say, "AZ won this discussion with his first post." That's when it really gets frustrating.

No offense to AZ, he's made good points against what I've had to say in the past, but it looks like he completely ignored your reasoning.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The videos sadly took longer than expected, and even now, only some of them got up. Expect a few more in the future. I know we have another of Hanenbow (that is the most definitive of them all) and one of the Summit (which shows less extreme characters in action abusing the loop).

Hanenbow:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mxO8c_MzKdc

This video should be pretty convincing. I run a lot as Fox, and he really can't do much about it as Bowser. As you can see the loop isn't rigid (I take all sorts of paths), but he really can't catch me unless I screw up. Hoop damage hurts me more than Bowser in this video, seriously.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_s_Njip77Y

This is another video except I'm doing the chasing this time. The first part shows how hopeless it is. Late in the video I mindgame him a bit into letting me hit him, but this is still too obviously stacked against Ganondorf to be a legal stage.

Summit:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=decTFkAiOzo

Haha, I don't even have to dash to outrun Ganondorf (thus preventing tripping!). This is really very obvious proof that this stage can't be legal; the only cool thing here is sliding taunts with Captain Falcon.

PictoChat:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgWukUvg8w

This just shows off a few hazards. The spikes and bombs are simply not fatal at all, and the fire only kills at truly obscene percentages. That is demonstrated here.

Port Town Aero Dive

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gbLrz6NxkpI

This is actually an awful match that you shouldn't really watch all the way through. I'm not trying to win here so much as to keep the match moving nominally, and it really shows. The only reason this is posted at all is for two key points in the video. Starting at around 1:40, the cars start coming with absolutely no warning and randomly kill him while I get lucky and can get out of the way (Mr. Game & Watch is also better at escaping). He was at an absurd percentage, but it can be easily verified by anyone that he would have died at a far lower percentage from that hit. Around 3:50 is the other point of interest. I use my down throw right as the cars start coming. Nothing happens, but just imagine what could have happened. The cars come randomly, and they had started passing before he could escape. Basically that throw had a "Judgment Hammer" random chance to kill him instantly (or me instantly I guess), and that seems unreasonable for a legal stage.

Pirate Ship

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1ik86pzFk-4

This isn't particularly well played, but you can get the point. The best part is that the one of us playing more sloppily was me; if lag weren't screwing me up, I would have easily 3 stocked him by just abusing that up special invincibility. It really is that good. Really though, academically, how is Falco supposed to approach Mr. Game & Watch in the water? I'm not seeing it. The bombs also ravage me this match just for the sake of the stage sucking that much more, but that's just an added bonus! It's not the argument for why the stage is broken.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FWwonDqWOMA

This is just a hilariously degenerate match on Pirate Ship. It's not one move being used over and over again, but it's just... bad.

 

[Pink Reaper]

AA, the thing about Pictochat isn't about the hazards killing. Its the fact that the hazards are random and deal large amounts of damage if hit. Damage from the stage isn't necessarily grounds for a ban, but you have it on the NEUTRAL list. The definition of a neutral is a stage that it should have NO random elements whatsoever and no hazards to the players. Pokemon Stadium 1 in Melee was the closest thing you got to a "Random" neutral with its stage changes but its stage changes were non-obstructive and are actually announced by the stage itself. There may not yet be enough evidence to ban Pictochat but there is no way it should be a neutral.

Edit: and the Pirate Ship reasoning is flawed. The fact is, you cant win by just sitting in the water and attacking unless your opponent comes to you. Projectile characters can just sit at a distance and throw crap at you while you screw around in the water or just sit there and wait for the tornado to kick up. The fact is that assuming your opponent actually WANTS to win, he'll just stand there and wait for you to get bored. That tactic isn't broken and neither is the stage.

 

[Junglechief]

How do linear projectiles make it to said water, the pirate ship sticks far enough out of the water that any linear projectiles will never get near someone who is short hoping in the water. Also how many characters have non linear projectiles(Pit, game and watch(he'll be in the water anyway), snake , link, and toon link.) If you are down you are forced to approach and if you aren't one of the character I just mentioned, you are screwed.

Pictochats hazards only kill you if you are an idiot. None of the hazards you are more likely to be hit by have any power whatsoever. The other flaw that im seeing is how people think transforming some how make stages unbalance. Every character is going to be given some slight advantage from stage layout, transformations mean that the slight advantage is always changing, which in turn makes the stage more neutral.

AA and I are the one's in the video's and I've been the one posting them. I can tell you now in our game and watch vs falco match my laser's did nothing for me. I tried spiking game and watch but his up b is very hard to time, with invulerabilty frames, quick movement, and the trampoline to throw you out of place. OF course lag dosen't help either, but lag also made game and watch's timing harder(imagine water camping with a good connection).

 

[Pink Reaper]

Your right, linear projectiles cant hit someone in the water. Just like how someone short hopping in the water cant hit anyone. Try this, next time AA is just sitting in the water abusing it, you just stand on the other side of the ship. As it is the level seems to have something against AA so you could probably win by just sitting there and letting him get blasted. Also, if it really becomes impossible to hit someone abusing invincibility frames in the water you can ban THAT, sort of like how Shino Stalling was banned in Melee.

Your reasoning for Pictochat still shows why it SHOULDN'T be neutral. Also, I haven't played that stage in a while, but I do remember there being a hazard that killed me at ~100% In a game where your average lifespan is about ~150% plus, that actually seems quite low.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Okay, the flaw here is that you are arguing from definition. If neutral were defined as you said, that would be reasonable. However, there's not a consensus on it. Here's the definitions we were using (Xiivi can chip in if he subtly disagrees):

Banned: A stage is banned if it gives an insurmountable advantage to a character or characters or is sufficiently random as to make luck with the stage one of the biggest factors in the match. Examples of the former are Hyrule Temple (Sonic), Shadow Moses Island (King Dedede), and Skyworld (Mr. Game & Watch). Examples of the latter are WarioWare and Port Town Aero Dive (Port Town is actually a mix since it combines the random death with an extreme character bias against Bowser etc. who can't clear the cars on most transformations without using their triple jump).

Counterpick: A stage is a counterpick if it is not sufficiently random to be cause for a ban but has notable character biases that make it too skewed to be a reasonable neutral. Examples include Frigate Orpheon (screws Olimar), Big Blue (advantage: aerialists), or Castle Siege (advantage: R.O.B.).

Neutral: A stage is not sufficiently random to be cause for a ban and further has a fairly low level of character bias. It can actually be fairly large; we take the presumption that Final Destination is an acceptable neutral despite the skewed matchups exaggerated by the stage such as Falco v. Bowser.

Basically, our definition of the line between neutral and counterpick was not about randomness (which only matters for bans) but about character bias. This makes more sense than it initially seems. If you agree that the stage isn't random enough to be banned, you are agreeing that it's perfectly acceptable for a tournament level match to happen on that stage (there's no more "protection" in our ruleset against counterpicks than against neutrals since our stage ban system lets you target both). At this point, we question how much stages coming up can really help and hurt the players. If you have a matchup like King Dedede vs Snake, the Bridge of Eldin is obviously going to be extremely skewed, and factoring in the King Dedede player's ability to counterpick his own stage if he loses the second round, the Snake player has found himself with a mountain to overcome before the match even starts. However, what if a "random" stage like PictoChat comes up? Before the match starts, no one has any cause for concern. Rational players would never pick it as a counterpick because it doesn't give them advantages. Really, it's not bad at all when it happens. By not banning it, we agree that the course allows tournament level gameplay to occur, and we can see that it doesn't screw people especially in any given matchups.

Anyway, the random damage is really overblown. Did you notice that the fire did 1% damage per hit? You can basically ignore that, and if you know how to DI, you won't get hit very often. The biggest damage any hazard there deals is the bomb at 20%, and those are generally so easy to avoid that it's not a really big worry. The most fatal hazard is the arrows, and they kill at somewhat higher percentages than 100% (not to mention that if you have your head on they won't be hitting you). This is compounded by another factor that is always neglected. If PictoChat is actively drawing, all drawings are completely non-interactive. From the moment you see the game begin to draw things and the moment you hear that sound effect, you know something will happen. You should be intimately familiar with all 27 drawings, and good stage knowledge will tell you when to expect something to pop up anyway (since the stage draws with 100% predictable intervals). Once a form has shown up, it won't even show up again until all other forms have appeared; this stage really doesn't disrupt you nearly as much as some people make it out to seem.

About Pirate Ship, I really get a sense that you've never played a Mr. Game & Watch player who knows what he's doing there. The tornado really doesn't help at all; Mr. Game & Watch just leaves the water at the last minute, uses his invincibility to get the ledge, and then ledgestalls around until the water comes back (which is very prompt; the ship isn't up in the air very long at all). There's even low gravity for much of the time which serves to make his job easier; he can jump off the ledge and use his up special to float down very slowly out of harm's way. Even if you can hit him every time the ship goes up in the air (which you can't), it's still not enough anyway since you only get a very small number of cyclones before the time runs out (they are pretty rare). If you're down 1% or something maybe, but we're talking being down more like 40-50% or even a whole stock. If the very first hit in the match is Mr. Game & Watch scoring a #9 hammer hit on Falco, there's not even any sense in continuing the match. "Wait for me to get bored" is an especially silly counter. I won't get bored; I have the will to wait it out until the clock hits zero (really, by not approaching me, you're just making it even easier on me). Anyone who cares at all about winning would do the same thing. The hilarious thing here is that the AI actually does exactly what you suggest. It waits on the ship patiently, and it loses to time every time.

Seriously, I've done the exact strategy prescribed many times, and it always works. I can't say I would argue too strongly against Pirate Ship being allowed in a tournament I was going to attend I guess; I'd really enjoy the free wins. Consider my argument against it an argument from honesty on the same level that an honest Ness player is going to argue against 75m. It's really a shame that you probably live far away from me as I'm very confident in this, and I'd definitely be willing to put my money where my mouth is on it.

If you want to suggest the "counter" of never being behind, I might remind you that Bowser can beat Sonic on Hyrule Temple via the same tactic. The level is broken because it's not fair to have to have a lead for the entire match or else you automatically lose.

Just banning stalling in the water would be messy. You're basically telling the winning player he's forced to approach which is patently unfair. That aside, where's the line? Since I am unapproachable in the water, I'm obviously going to spend every last second I can in there. We already have the very unfortunate issue of stalling under stages; I don't think we need another fuzzy rule just for a stage that's already pretty bad.

 

[Pink Reaper]

No, theres a general consensus on what a neutral stage should be. There should be ZERO hazards, it should be NEUTRAL, its that simple. It has nothing to do with character bias, if it did, FD would have been banned in Melee cus a character like Spamus or Falco gets such extreme stage control. However, thats the CHARACTER, not the stage, the stage itself is still neutral, it has no hazards against either player.

As for your "I can just wait" strategy on Pirate ship(you know, STALLING the match, usually banned) you can ONLY win if you have either dealt sufficient damage to your opponent of if you just happen to land an instant kill move, other than that, your just going to end up sitting for 7 minutes waiting for sudden death. And yes trust me, other people would be willing to wait as well. However, stall tactics in any form are always banned, sort of like how you cant do under the stage stalling with Pit/Meta/Kirby/all the other characters that can do it, sort of like you cant do infinite ledge stalling. You SHOULD be thanked for bringing this to the attention of the community however as a new stall tactic is always ban worthy.

 

[Junglechief]

Certain types of stalling are banned yes, but not all types. For instance, abusing loops is not banned. Instead stages with loops are banned. And the logic that stages without hazards are neutral is so skewed. Should temple be neutral it doesn't have hazards and you could just ban the loop right. By your logic temple(the worst level in the game) wouldn't just be legal, it would be neutral.

 

[Yuna]

I agree on most of those things. Just... PictoChat on Random?!

 

[Pink Reaper]

Certain types of stalling are banned yes, but not all types. For instance, abusing loops is not banned. Instead stages with loops are banned. And the logic that stages without hazards are neutral is so skewed. Should temple be neutral it doesn't have hazards and you could just ban the loop right. By your logic temple(the worst level in the game) wouldn't just be legal, it would be neutral.

Yes, yes it should.

 

[Junglechief]

I agree on most of those things. Just... PictoChat on Random?!

It really is neutral AA and I have played on it a lot, and we are pretty unbiased in these matters, both of us have given up stages we really liked for the sake of fairness. AA banned Flat Zone 2 which he loved and Pirate Ship. I was the one that came to the conclusion that green hill ought to be banned and I loved that stage as well. Also neither one of use really care for falco destination...final destination, but we still kept it at neutral.

Also Pink half of your posts are about how much you think brawl sucks. There is nothing wrong with not liking brawl, but I would prefer brawl rulsets be made by those who actually care about the game.

 

[Firestorm88]

No, theres a general consensus on what a neutral stage should be. There should be ZERO hazards, it should be NEUTRAL, its that simple. It has nothing to do with character bias, if it did, FD would have been banned in Melee cus a character like Spamus or Falco gets such extreme stage control. However, thats the CHARACTER, not the stage, the stage itself is still neutral, it has no hazards against either player.

That's not the general consensus of neutral. Otherwise many of us wouldn't be arguing for Halberd as neutral.

As for your "I can just wait" strategy on Pirate ship(you know, STALLING the match, usually banned) you can ONLY win if you have either dealt sufficient damage to your opponent of if you just happen to land an instant kill move, other than that, your just going to end up sitting for 7 minutes waiting for sudden death. And yes trust me, other people would be willing to wait as well. However, stall tactics in any form are always banned, sort of like how you cant do under the stage stalling with Pit/Meta/Kirby/all the other characters that can do it, sort of like you cant do infinite ledge stalling. You SHOULD be thanked for bringing this to the attention of the community however as a new stall tactic is always ban worthy.

Stalling under the stage is banned because the other character has no possible way of reaching them. Stalling in the water wouldn't be because the character can reach them, it's just not going to be a favourable thing to do.

 

[Pink Reaper]

It really is neutral AA and I have played on it a lot, and we are pretty unbiased in these matters, both of us have given up stages we really liked for the sake of fairness. AA banned Flat Zone 2 which he loved and Pirate Ship. I was the one that came to the conclusion that green hill ought to be banned and I loved that stage as well. Also neither one of use really care for falco destination...final destination, but we still kept it at neutral.

Also Pink half of your posts are about how much you think brawl sucks. There is nothing wrong with not liking brawl, but I would prefer brawl rulsets be made by those who actually care about the game.

Actually, if anyone is Unbiased its ME because I DON'T care about the game whatsoever, I don't have a favorite or a least favorite. I just look at the stages and what it brings to the table. I understand your dislike of Final Destination, try being a Kirby Main in Melee, thats WORSE than anything in Brawl but I would never argue that it wasn't neutral. A neutral should be a stage with zero hazards and as little character bias as possible. In Melee, Pokefloats had NO hazards but the constant stage movement ruined many character strategies. It didn't make any characters unplayable, but it harmed enough to make it so it couldn't be neutral. You can argue Pictochat as a counterpick, but the amount of damage you can take from hazards is too much to alow it as a neutral.

That's not the general consensus of neutral. Otherwise many of us wouldn't be arguing for Halberd as neutral.

Stalling under the stage is banned because the other character has no possible way of reaching them. Stalling in the water wouldn't be because the character can reach them, it's just not going to be a favourable thing to do.

You SHOULDN'T be arguing halberd as a neutral >_>

Also, once again, if stalling in the water ISN'T banned and its unfavorable to approach them in the water, just don't do it >__> No character can win by simply Swimming in the water and there's plenty of characters like DDD, T. Link, Link, ROB, Peach, Snake, Pit and Pikachu(probably more, Im too lazy to think right now) with aimable projectiles that can easily beat the strategy. If you want to ban a stage for a given strategy you have to prove that that strategy is UNBEATABLE no matter what.

 

[Firestorm88]

Why shouldn't I? Halberd seems pretty neutral to me.

I'm not an advocate for Pirate Ship being banned, mostly due to never experiencing the problem AA has personally. I like Pirate Ship a lot and am hoping that this strategy is beat. Therefore, I'm probably going to stay out of that discussion.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Why shouldn't I? Halberd seems pretty neutral to me.

Well, lets put it like this, half of Halbard is Neutral and the other half is counter pick. On the one hand, you have quite a few points where there's just nothing going on, the stage is basically FD with a platform. Then you have the Counter Pick part, with those oh so happy hazards. Now, once again, we all know these hazards are really easy to avoid, in the same way the Bombs in Green Greens are easy to avoid(probably easier since you ALWAYS know where they are) Now, while all of the hazards are easy(ish) to avoid there's two simple problems. One is the laser. Its the easiest to see coming but its very damaging and it lasts more than a single hit so you can actually be hit into to it AFTER its started firing(Imagine getting Fsmashed by marth then flying directly into a **** laser. You just took a buttload of damage for no real reason. I don't think its enough for a Ban, but its a bit much for a neutral. Once again, an neutral stage should have as little interference on the match as possible.

 

[Firestorm88]

No real reason? You got outplayed plain and simple. There's a few times my opponent has been caught by the laser. In 100% of those cases, I caused it due to planning on my part. The laser takes time to charge before fire and both players should be thinking of taking advantage of it. My opponent has been able to get me into the laser too on different occasions.

Anyway, with the way stage selection will likely end up, what's neutral won't matter too much. If you dislike Halberd, you'll be able to strike it out =)

 

[Pink Reaper]

No real reason? You got outplayed plain and simple. There's a few times my opponent has been caught by the laser. In 100% of those cases, I caused it due to planning on my part. The laser takes time to charge before fire and both players should be thinking of taking advantage of it. My opponent has been able to get me into the laser too on different occasions.

Anyway, with the way stage selection will likely end up, what's neutral won't matter too much. If you dislike Halberd, you'll be able to strike it out =)

Whats neutral will always matter. You shouldn't have to waste your Halberd just because a TO went crazy with stage picks. Stage striking is very important in tournaments and you shouldn't have to waste your ban on a stage like Halberd or Picto Chat just because they're on random.

 

[Yuna]

Wait, you think banning Flat Zone 2 was a compromize? It's auto-banned for obvious reasons. PictoChat is not neutral. Several of the stage changes blatantly favour certain characters way more than others.

 

[Xiivi]

Wait, you think banning Flat Zone 2 was a compromize? It's auto-banned for obvious reasons. PictoChat is not neutral. Several of the stage changes blatantly favour certain characters way more than others.

I did not "comprise" anything during the making of this list. AA might have felt he compromised things, however I think he simply disliked having to admit some of his favourite stages simply weren't suitable for tournament play.

Also, concerning the two stages, Flat Zone 2 and Pictochat. People are far too harsh on both of these stages. I will admit, the first Brawl tournament I held I banned both without a doubt in my mind they were unsuitable. Someone even asked me about the ban on Pictochat and I cited too many of the hazards were radical and altered gameplay too much. I will also admit I walked into testing of Flat Zone 2 thinking it'd be an obvious ban. You are correct in it being ban worthy, however it isn't nearly as unplayable as stages like New Pork City.

Flat Zone 2: The normal part of the stage is completely fine. If this was the stage alone, it would not be banned and would be an easy counterpick. The ceiling is not as low as many would like to lead you to believe. The side walls are also not as close as people would want you to believe. It's walls are about the size of Mario Circuits and its ceiling mirrors that of Halbred's. If the Chef and Oil Panic transformations were the only two transformations possible, it'd still fall into the counterpick area, however it would be much closer to banishment due to character advantages being very strong here. Chef is laughable at best, if you think this transformation is extreme play it some more. The Oil Panic may seem somewhat shady, however once you play the stage you realize how the hazards are easily controlled and dealt with and only effect the game through smart gameplay. However, every aspect of this stage thus far mentioned is easily controlled and manipulated by characters such as Snake and Link for large advantages. However, the nail in the coffin comes from the Lion Tamer. This stage transformation is by definition too radical for gameplay. The safest possible strategy is to simply not move and wait out the transformation as it is very risky to move about this portion of the stage. However, with characters such as Snake and Link they are able to force you into the hazard which will likely force a stock off of an opponent simply due to the stage changing to Lion Tamer (which it has a high chance of, especially when you can limit Chef's presence). This simply put the stage over the top. Although I did make the correct decision of banning this stage, I did it originally with poor judgment. Simply because many people may be right in banning this does not mean they were doing it for the right reasons.

Pictochat: You say the stage transformations blatantly favour characters over others. However, you will never see the same transformation in a game more than once as it is impossible given the ruleset. Thus you have 13.33 seconds to actually use that blatant advantage. If Pokemon Stadium in Melee had transformations that lasted for 30 seconds that could quickly lead to a stock for Fox that could easily appear more than once per match and the stage remain neutral, this obviously must not be a problem. There should not be a double standard against Pictochat. The transformations give fair warning, last a very small amount of time (smaller than Delfino's, PS1's, and PS2's transformations), and the majority of them (there are 27) are neutral and would be considered neutral stages if left to stand alone. Because of this there is absolutely no reason to move the stage to counterpick.

A side note to all:
My thoughts do differ from AA's on many issues, so please do not take either of our words as each other's. The opening post was written entirely by me whilst reading notes prepared by AA, and I sent the post for him to verify and note anything he wanted changed. We of course can't do that for every post we make, so please take my words for mine and his for his outside of the opening post.

Stages whose placements I firmly stand for at this point:
Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Battlefield
Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Final Destination
Super Mario Sunshine: Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island: Yoshi's Island
Kirby: Halberd
Star Fox: Lylat Cruise
Pokémon: Pokémon Stadium 2
Animal Crossing Wild World: Smashville
PictoChat: PictoChat
Super Mario 64: Rainbow Cruise
Pokémon: Pokémon Stadium
Luigi's Mansion: Luigi's Mansion
Metroid Prime: Frigate Orpheon
Pikmin: Distant Planet
Donkey Kong Country: Jungle Japes
EarthBound: Onett
Kirby: Green Greens
Metroid: Brinstar
Super Mario Bros.: Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Pokémon: Spear Pillar
WarioWare: WarioWare, Inc.
EarthBound: New Pork City
Ice Climber: Summit
Donkey Kong: 75m
Mario Bros.: Mario Bros.
Game & Watch: Flat Zone 2
Electroplankton: Hanenbow
The Legend of Zelda: Temple

I really can't see the placements for these stages having good reason for being changed.

Stage I could easily see moving:
Mario Kart: Mario Circuit (I could see this banned due to interrupted walk-offs if they prove more broken than originally thought)
Donkey Kong Jungle Beat: Rumble Falls (I could see this swinging to banned only if a way to constantly run forever works)
Zelda Twilight Princess: Bridge of Eldin (I could see this banned due to interrupted walk-offs if they prove more broken than originally thought)
Metroid: Norfair (I could see this banned due to ledge invincibility posing too much of an advantage for multi-jump characters)
Fire Emblem: Castle Siege (I could see this neutral, the second transformation may be more workable than originally thought and R.O.B.'s advantage might be negligible)
Super Mario World: Yoshi's Island (I could see this banned due to walk-offs if they prove more broken than originally thought)
F-Zero: Big Blue (I could see this banned due to a few reasons, but at this point they are all paper theory and nothing more)
Super Mario Bros.: Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (I see a very slim chance of this being counterpick)
The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker: Pirate Ship (I see a very slim chance of this being counterpick)
F-Zero: Port Town Aero Dive (I see a very slim chance of this being counterpick)
Kid Icarus: Skyworld (I see a very slim chance of this being counterpick)
Metal Gear Solid: Shadow Moses Island (I see a very slim chance of this being counterpick)
Sonic the Hedgehog: Green Hill Zone (I see a very slim chance of this being counterpick)
Star Fox: Corneria (I see a very slim chance of this being counterpick)

 

[Yuna]

Pictochat's transformations often favour the same characters, though. As in most transformations are highly advantageous for the same characters. It's not ban-material but it's hardly neutral either.

 

[Xiivi]

Pictochat's transformations often favour the same characters, though. As in most transformations are highly advantageous for the same characters. It's not ban-material but it's hardly neutral either.

Fox gained a huge advantage that could result in an easy stock on two of the four transformations of PS in Melee. It was possible for a match to have only these two transformations appear giving Fox a huge advantage was able to be taken easy advantage of given the timeframe unless the opposing player attempted to wait out the transformation.

I'll go through Pictochat with you right now.

2 platforms. Who does this notably favour? (And when I say notably favour I don't mean "Oh man, platforms are so bad for Falco!" I want a concrete advantage.)

2 outside platforms. Same question.

A moving hazard along a large platform that can cause damage if hit. Same question.

Two moving platforms. Same question.

Four moving platforms. Same question.

Two stationary hazards that deal 1% damage. Same question.

A double-slanted platform. Same question.

A platform and two ladders. Same question.

Two outside platforms. Same question.

A platform. Same question.

A moving platform. Same question.

Connected platforms. Same question.

Wind effect and a floating outside wall. Same question.

Three platforms. Same question.

Platforms and floating inside walls. Same question.

Many platforms. Same question.

Slow moving, set-path, set-knockback hazard. Same question.

Connected platforms. Same question.

A slanted wall. Same question.

A stationary hazard. Same question.

Two hazardous floating walls outside the stage. Same question.

Two outside springs. Same question.

Walls and platforms. I can see this maybe favouring someone who can take advantage of the walls.

Walls and platforms. I can see this maybe favouring someone who can take advantage of the walls.

Walls and hazards. I can see this maybe favouring someone who can take advantage of the walls.

Two walls and a large platform. I can see this maybe favouring someone who can take advantage of the walls.

A platform and two walls. I could see this maybe favouring someone who can take advantage of the walls.

For all of the transformations with walls (5/27) the stage is easily divided such that one can wait out the 13.33 second transformation much like many players did in Melee. I also don't see any notable advantages the other transformations give characters other than the fact some characters like platforms more than others. So please, please. Point out which of these transformations favour a certain character over and over again such that a majority of them favour the same character unfairly.

 

[JCaesar]

For what it's worth, I'm in the ROB forums a lot, and AFAIK none of the pro ROBs ever use Castle Siege as a counterpick in any matchup. In the stage counterpick thread in there it's not even being discussed.

 

[Yuna]

* Many transformations favour those who have good jumps. Those who don't are screwed as they won't ever, for example, make it past the 4 Spears transformation without having to use Up B. Meanwhile, their opponents are free to do whatever, sometimes, say, spam projectiles.
* The many platform transformations again favour those with good jumps. Those without cannot catch up to run-away spammers.
* You can actually get "stuck" inside of a transformation, like "below" the water on the Boat at Sea tranformation. Zelda's Din's Fire and all characters with a sword say "Hi". Untouchable while spamming disjointed hitboxes, anyone?
* The many transformations where you either cannot make it to the other side or have to take great risks in doing so allows for characters on "the other side" (like the transformation with Two Eyes) to spam projectiles or high priority moves/disjointed hitboxes at you while you're helpless.

Not to mention that I shouldn't have to worry about more than half of the transformations being easily used stall the match since unless I'm Zelda or a character with a sword (or Snake), it's impossible for me to even touch them! Sometimes, I can touch them, but it'd be at a considerable risk. Over half of the cast gets screwed over by, say, Zelda's Din's Fire specifically on this stage. In fact, it's a great Zelda counterpick as most of the time, they won't even be able to touch you!

Also, when Pokémon Stadium transformed into the walled versions, you just didn't go near the walls. It's not like Fox could magically teleport you to the walls. The many transformations of PictoChat are kinda hard to not successfully abuse.

Also,many of those transformations can be abused for jab-locks, laser locks and chaingrabs, allowing them to go on way past their time.