Am I the only one who is fine with Pikachu the way he is now?

[666blaziken]

So recently, I entered a PM tournament with pikachu, and while on stream, I heard the commentators say that pikachu mains dropped him for other characters since the nerfs came to his QAC (which were needed, because otherwise, he wouldn't ever need to sweet spot the ledge=instant neutral). I still think that pikachu's completley viable, just really hard to win with because a lot of his match-ups require deep knowledge of the opponent's character rather than playing flow chart due to his range.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I could argue that his viability could be in question if it takes way more effort to stand his ground against easier characters, but regardless of whether or not he's viable it doesn't change that he feels frustrating to play sometimes, and it doesn't help draw in players (which is still important considering how a lot of people dropped him). It also doesn't help that there's little acknowledgement for Pika because he's not good or bad enough to get people to pay attention to him.

The way he is now is however healthy for us Pika mains. Focus on fundamentals and tech mastery for now, and hopefully we can get more tools in the future. People can better identify where he actually needs improvements if we push Pika as for as he'll go.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I hear complaints about former Pikachu players far too often, as if they have some responsibility to enjoy this game the way others tell them. I'd like to make it clear that players abandoned Pikachu for a multitude of reasons, all of which lead back to one common factor, but that factor is NOT that Pikachu under-performs. If that were the case, they wouldn't have been playing Pikachu in the first place. I think Pikachu's usability relative to the meta is approximately equal across 3.0, 3.5, and Melee.
The reason people dropped Pikachu is not because of his viability, but because of his enjoyability. It's not the fact that he was nerfed, it's the way he was changed. Nobody thinks QAC was fine the way it was, but it was certainly fun. It was an incredibly creative tool, which just felt good to use. Most importantly, QAC could be salvaged, it could be fixed and still fun. But it wasn't.
3.5 Pikachu doesn't have anything nearly as fun, or really much of anything to distinguish him, so why should one play him?

Just imagine if the PMDT gave Falco his Brawl Shine. Would you decry those who switch characters as "whiners?"
Shine's broken, right? So it's a totally fair nerf. Those who start focusing on their pocket DK were just too reliant on cheese. They need to accept change. There's plenty of new, fun tech to be found with this Shine!
Don't you think some of them just like going up and down with Shine-Dairs? Catching bad OoS choices? Making a bloop? Pressing lots of buttons really fast? Could it be that they always liked the mixups in DK's throw game nearly as much? His long reach and strong hits? That they're not just playing him because they're frauds?

The exact thought processes can be pretty entwined, so it's hard express well. "He's not as fun" is pretty descriptive for all of it, but I'll do my best to be explicit:

• Pikachu can still do some cool stuff. Pikachu can do that stuff in Melee. Melee is more popular. I'll just play Melee!
• Pikachu can still do some cool stuff. I'm getting bored of this stuff. I'll try this other guy. Hey that is really cool stuff. I'll pick up a new character! (probably Ganondorf)
• Pikachu can still do some cool stuff. There are 40 other characters who can do some really cool stuff. Some of that stuff I already like. I'll switch characters! (whomever their secondary was)
  
• Pikachu can still do some cool stuff. There are 40 other characters who can do some really cool stuff. Some of that stuff is better versions of Pikachu's stuff. I'll play a different character! (Fox, Falcon, Wolf, Squirtle, Jiggs, etc.… it depends on what they liked)
• Winning is fun. Winning is hard with Pikachu. Some characters have easier versions of Pikachu's stuff. I'll play a different character! (Fox, Falcon, Marth, Sheik)
• QAC was changed poorly. DT doesn't care about Pikachu. DT might make other poor changes to Pikachu. I'll play someone less likely to change! (Fox, Falcon)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. QAC could have been made fair, or even bad but still fun. DT is moving towards dash-dance grab SHFFL. I'll play someone who epitomizes that gimmick! (Falcon, Marth, Sheik)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. QAC could have been made fair, or even bad but still fun. DT is moving towards dash-dance grab SHFFL. That gimmick's epitomized by non-fun characters. I'll complain on the internet! (see Sheik, Marth)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. Other cool stuff was changed poorly. DT is moving towards dash-dance grab SHFFL. That's not always fun. I'll complain on the internet! (see Zamus, Pit, Charizard)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. Other cool stuff was changed poorly. DT is moving towards dash-dance grab SHFFL. I can do that in Melee. Melee is more popular. I'll just play Melee!
  
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. Other stuff that's fun and ridiculous didn't change. That's Melee stuff. I'll just play Melee! (see Shines, Float, IC's, Rest, Luigi's WD)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. Good characters have to have ridiculous stuff. QAC was changed poorly. DT plays favorites. I'll just play Melee!
  
• Some stuff is too easy/spammable/not fun. That stuff should change. QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. DT doesn't care about Pikachu. Forget this green Earth! (contrast response to PK Fire, Withdraw, Mewtwo, Diddy)
• Pikachu's hard and not very rewarding. No one will play Pikachu. I won't play Pikachu!
• No one will play Pikachu. Pikachu must be bad. I won't play Pikachu!

Biased towards my own thoughts, but I believe most thought something along these lines.

It's honestly much worse for a game if no one is playing a character, than if no one is winning with a character.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

QaC wasn't even removed, only the second zip was.

YOU CAN STILL QUICK ATTACK CANCEL

the first zip is better than the second zip

if you liked the second zip quick attack cancel, LEARN HOW TO EDGE CANCEL IT


ANYONE WHO DROPPED PIKACHU UPON 3.5'S RELEASE IS JUST A CRY BABY, STOP WHINING AND GET BETTER

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I actually think its better now that you have to edge cancel the second zip, because now it doesn't negate stage positioning and it isn't as easy to spam.

 

[Cubelarooso]

ANYONE WHO DROPPED MELEE FOR PM IS JUST A CRY BABY, STOP WHINING AND GET BETTER

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

ANYONE WHO DROPPED MELEE FOR PM IS JUST A CRY BABY, STOP WHINING AND GET BETTER

not even close to what I said, is this a joke or something

 

[Choice Scarf]

All Pika discussion leads to QAC. It's never going to end huh?

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

All Pika discussion leads to QAC. It's never going to end huh?

People act like it was the only thing good about pikachu, and they act like it was completely removed. Like, if you had to rely on QaC that much than honestly you probably weren't very good to begin with.

Not much has changed to be honest, the only 2 big nerfs are side b no longer grabbing ledges, and the extra endlag on Quick attack. You can still do the same things as in 3.0

Do you miss approaching from half a stage length away? You still can, instead of doing QaC 1 into 2, you just do 2 QaC 1s. You can still approach form a stage length away.

You like zipping around the stage really fast? QaC 1 and edge cancels. You can still maneuver the stage.

Your getting combod and are in a position that is supposed to favor your opponent? Just Quick attack into a platform and ledge cancel, you can still negate positional advantage.


The only thing that is was truly affected was his recovery. Side B no longer grabs ledge, and it is no longer safe to up b onstage. (Actually if you are in the right spots you can edge cancel your quick attacks, so in some situations its still safe.)

People who are whining because the PMDT removed his "Flavor" or "Uniqueness" weren't Pikachu mains to begin with, all it takes are a few small adaptations and you can play 3.5 Pikachu almost exactly the same as in 3.0.

 

[666blaziken]

People act like it was the only thing good about pikachu, and they act like it was completely removed. Like, if you had to rely on QaC that much than honestly you probably weren't very good to begin with.

Not much has changed to be honest, the only 2 big nerfs are side b no longer grabbing ledges, and the extra endlag on Quick attack. You can still do the same things as in 3.0

Do you miss approaching from half a stage length away? You still can, instead of doing QaC 1 into 2, you just do 2 QaC 1s. You can still approach form a stage length away.

You like zipping around the stage really fast? QaC 1 and edge cancels. You can still maneuver the stage.

Your getting combod and are in a position that is supposed to favor your opponent? Just Quick attack into a platform and ledge cancel, you can still negate positional advantage.


The only thing that is was truly affected was his recovery. Side B no longer grabs ledge, and it is no longer safe to up b onstage. (Actually if you are in the right spots you can edge cancel your quick attacks, so in some situations its still safe.)

People who are whining because the PMDT removed his "Flavor" or "Uniqueness" weren't Pikachu mains to begin with, all it takes are a few small adaptations and you can play 3.5 Pikachu almost exactly the same as in 3.0.

^ That's how I feel. As a pikachu main in both melee and project M, you should win because you have the skill to avoid being off the ledge and maintaining one of the fastest neutral games and best off stage games, not relying on up B spamming and having a free recovery. I guess a lot of non pikachu players really liked that gimmick, and now that pikachu isn't free anymore, people don't want to invest time into him. It's fine, I guess us pikachu players will just have to work hard to win with him.

 

[666blaziken]

I hear complaints about former Pikachu players far too often, as if they have some responsibility to enjoy this game the way others tell them. I'd like to make it clear that players abandoned Pikachu for a multitude of reasons, all of which lead back to one common factor, but that factor is not that Pikachu under-performs. (If that were the case, they wouldn't have been playing Pikachu in the first place.)
The reason people dropped Pikachu is not because of his viability, but because of his enjoyability. It's not the fact that he was nerfed, it's the way he was changed. Nobody thinks QAC was fine the way it was, but it was certainly fun. It was an incredibly creative tool, which just felt good to use. Most importantly, QAC could be salvaged, it could be fixed and still fun. But it wasn't.
3.5 Pikachu doesn't have anything nearly as fun, or really much of anything to distinguish him, so why should one play him?

Just imagine if the PMDT gave Falco his Brawl Shine. Would you decry those who switch characters as "whiners?"
Shine's broken, right? So it's a totally fair nerf. Those who start focusing on their pocket DK were just too reliant on cheese. They need to accept change. There's plenty of new, fun tech to be found with this Shine!
Don't you think some of them just like going up and down with Shine-Dairs? Catching bad OoS choices? Making a bloop? Pressing lots of buttons really fast? Could it be that they always liked the mixups in DK's throw game nearly as much? His long reach and strong hits? That they're not just playing him because they're frauds?

The exact thought processes can be pretty entwined, so it's hard express well. "He's not as fun" is pretty descriptive for all of it, but I'll do my best to be explicit:

• Pikachu can still do some cool stuff. Pikachu can do that stuff in Melee. Melee is more popular. I'll just play Melee!
• Pikachu can still do some cool stuff. I'm getting bored of this stuff. I'll try this other guy. Hey that is really cool stuff. I'll pick up a new character! (probably Ganondorf)
• Pikachu can still do some cool stuff. There are 40 other characters who can do some really cool stuff. Some of that stuff I already like. I'll switch characters! (whomever their secondary was)
  
• Pikachu can still do some cool stuff. There are 40 other characters who can do some really cool stuff. Some of that stuff is better versions of Pikachu's stuff. I'll play a different character! (Fox, Falcon, Wolf, Squirtle, Jiggs, etc.… it depends on what they liked)
• Winning is fun. Winning is hard with Pikachu. Some characters have easier versions of Pikachu's stuff. I'll play a different character! (Fox, Falcon, Marth, Sheik)
• QAC was changed poorly. DT doesn't care about Pikachu. DT might make other poor changes to Pikachu. I'll play someone less likely to change! (Fox, Falcon)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. QAC could have been made fair, or even bad but still fun. DT is moving towards dash-dance grab SHFFL. I'll play someone who epitomizes that gimmick! (Falcon, Marth, Sheik)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. QAC could have been made fair, or even bad but still fun. DT is moving towards dash-dance grab SHFFL. That gimmick's epitomized by non-fun characters. I'll complain on the internet! (see Sheik, Marth)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. Other cool stuff was changed poorly. DT is moving towards dash-dance grab SHFFL. That's not always fun. I'll complain on the internet! (see Zamus, Pit, Charizard)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. Other cool stuff was changed poorly. DT is moving towards dash-dance grab SHFFL. I can do that in Melee. Melee is more popular. I'll just play Melee!
  
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. Other stuff that's fun and ridiculous didn't change. That's Melee stuff. I'll just play Melee! (see Shines, Float, IC's, Rest, Luigi's WD)
• QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. Good characters have to have ridiculous stuff. QAC was changed poorly. DT plays favorites. I'll just play Melee!
  
• Some stuff is too easy/spammable/not fun. That stuff should change. QAC is ridiculous, but fun and not easy. QAC was changed poorly. DT doesn't care about Pikachu. Forget this green Earth! (contrast response to PK Fire, Withdraw, Mewtwo, Diddy)
• Pikachu's hard and not very rewarding. No one will play Pikachu. I won't play Pikachu!
• No one will play Pikachu. Pikachu must be bad. I won't play Pikachu!

Biased towards my own thoughts, but I believe most thought something along these lines.

Seriously? Melee falco's shine's huge nerfs to brawl are comparible to that one tiny change to pikachu? When they said they were going to nerf recoveries to give the game a better design, it was obvious this was going to happen (could've been worse; could've removed the 2nd zip all together) I notice that you mention melee a lot, and I'd like to mention that pikachu isn't the best in melee, and PM gave him more buffs than QAC. Better range in his aerials (except for uair which is the same) a back air that kills, a bigger grab range, QAC is still a thing and can still be creative, and thunder is harder to punish. However, the great thing about project M is that because of 3.5 nerfs to recovery, it gives me a much easier transition from project M to melee and vice versa; when I play project M, I am essentially playing melee with more characters and a better approach game, and it feels great. I understand that people like gimmicks, but the problem with gimmicks that are actually good is that it makes the character shallow, and the great thing about melee pikachu and 3.5 pikachu is that they both force you to be creative and skillful in order to win matches.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Please try to read my message, rather than respond to my words. I assume you haven't seen my ideal QAC.

The most obvious change is to fix QAC (including the glitch by which Pikachu sometimes maintains his double-jump when hit during QA). I think the most elegant check to the power that would bring is to make it so QAC is lost when Pikachu enters tumble, and regained when he lands.
This specifically targets the least interesting, most objectionable uses. IE, when recovering against an opponent, and as an escape from being juggled. However, he could still use it to recover from his own deep edgeguards (assuming the opponent didn't turn the tides), and QAC wouldn't just be hit out of him by every incidental move. On the other hand, it couldn't be used to forgo the ledge-game, since he'd have to have already gotten onstage to use it. Basically, Pikachu would have to earn QAC back by not relying on it to reset to neutral.

Speaking of neutral, I have said about all I could to explain QAC and its risk/reward to the unfamiliar¹, but here's the tl;dr version:
QAC gave Pikachu a creative skill - requiring technically precise, subdued, and unpredictable use to not blow up in his face - that allowed Pikachu to do things that just come naturally to other characters. Most characters can close space or circumvent positional disadvantage just by swinging their long-range, disjointed attacks. Pikachu doesn't have this option, but QAC offered a more difficult, more dangerous direction.
QAC didn't circumvent positioning; it overcame it. QAC was always risky around anyone with hitboxes. It left Pikachu completely open and basically huge, and using it to regain position was a Hail Mary play that put Pikachu in an even worse position, hoping the opponent couldn't read Mrs. Wishy-Washy and that the player's fingers didn't fumble. Especially with the above changes and Melee-landlag making the threat of failure all the more ominous, QAC would be a thoughtful, unspammable move that requires proper usage to amount to anything.

But maybe the DT might still think the risk/reward is unbalanced. The appropriate response is to tweak the ratio, not remove the player's options altogether. One or both of the following could do that:

• QA can only be cancelled by jump. Thus, QAC could only lead directly to a safe position through wavelanding (more like frame-perfect wavedashing; more technically demanding with worse risks from failure than traditional QAC-WL). Frankly, I find QAC'd aerials (especially Fair autocanceling, basically negating any lag from QA) to be boring, especially compared to how strong an option they are. They, along with QAC-special and super-easy QAC-WL, seem way more arguably-OP (in both reward and lack-of-risk) than second-zip QAC, with much less room to innovate. The latter is just better design.
  
• QAC has minor recoil damage. If one is really so worried about QAC spam, have punishment happen automatically. Even if it's just a couple %, that's plenty for Pikachu's weight, so it should curtail usage, making the player weigh () their options that much more. Plus it's a flavorful change, following a common Pokémon practice and alluding to Pichu.

The key is to preserve fun and excitement for those playing and watching the game. Honestly, given the choice I'd personally much prefer (and I think it would be better for the game and its fans) for QAC restored with deliberate modifications than to have most of Pikachu's other buffs from Melee. Things like safer Fair, stronger Uair, bigger shield, and longer grab add no depth or draw, and just serve to make Pikachu easier, not more fun. Even making Bair less awesome would be better-advised.
I just think "easier and better" is the wrong direction, but I'll stop now before I get too dogmatic…

No camping, no spamming, no recovery, no negating stagger, not even necessarily good.
Just a fun, creative, unique tool.

QAC and Shine are comparable in being one of their characters' most fun, creative, unique tools. They're different in that Shine is centralizing.

Is Peach shallow for having Float? Is Sheik less shallow for "not" having a "gimmick?"

You can argue all you want about how ex-Pikachu players weren't real Scotsman, that they just played him because he was soo easy to win with, that they're wrong for doing what they find fun. But nobody's going to listen, because they're not on the PM Pikachu board, because they don't play PM Pikachu.
The fact remains that Pikachu is one of the least used characters in the game, less than many characters considered much worse. The fact remains that no other character received the same response in 3.5. Squirtle players mocked those who lamented Withdraw's changes, and continued to study their funny names content that Withraw was fair and posed no detriment to enjoyability. Zamus players banded together to discuss the changes, receive developer insight and constructive discussion, and while many put down Zamus as she was no longer relevant to their interests, many others decided to ride it out, and many picked her up. Diddy players realized their character was bananas, and figured out that they could still do the crazy stuff they find appeeling. Pit players silently moved on to the next easy top tier. Sonic players go fast. But Pikachu remains deplored, abandoned and ignored.
It could be because Pikachu players are just different from normal people, that they're statistically unrepresentative of the overall PM population, that they're somehow all psychologically disturbed, that the cosmos cut them from a special cloth to be cowards and crybabies.
Or maybe they just responded how anyone would. It could be because the situation is different. Because Melee is more popular, with characters more vulnerable to a Pikachu that's the same. Because there are characters that offer what Pikachu does, but easier and better and more. Because for people who first try him out, there isn't any reason to return. Because QAC could have been both competitive and fun, but instead it's neither. Because the changes were flawed, though a respectable attempt at solving a problem without fully understanding it.
It could be, and I believe it is.

Here's a challenge. Find a video of a 3.0 Pikachu spamming QAC, in neutral, in a way the suggested changes wouldn't address, against a notable opponent, without being punished for it, and without equal spam of dash-dancing and SHFFL. Actually, try to find a video fitting half the criteria, then work upwards.

 

[666blaziken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_2VFIzoIMU In this set, sometimes when pikachu was at the ledge, he could get up from it and QAC away from snake and get back into neutral for free such as in 0:40, if that was in 3.5 while all the other characters had their recoveries nerfed, pikachu would be an inconsistancy to the PMDT's philosophy of characters being at a disadvantage near the ledge. QAC is still in, it just isn't relied on as much. It really isn't an issue because overall everyone got nerfed, so it's much easier for pikachu to punish people off stage, so his nerf has been compensated. So tell me, how would you change quick attack cancel so it isn't changed "poorly"?

 

[Cubelarooso]

So tell me, how would you change quick attack cancel so it isn't changed "poorly"?

I assume you haven't seen my ideal QAC.

The most obvious change is to fix QAC (including the glitch by which Pikachu sometimes maintains his double-jump when hit during QA). I think the most elegant check to the power that would bring is to make it so QAC is lost when Pikachu enters tumble, and regained when he lands.
This specifically targets the least interesting, most objectionable uses. IE, when recovering against an opponent, and as an escape from being juggled. However, he could still use it to recover from his own deep edgeguards (assuming the opponent didn't turn the tides), and QAC wouldn't just be hit out of him by every incidental move. On the other hand, it couldn't be used to forgo the ledge-game, since he'd have to have already gotten onstage to use it. Basically, Pikachu would have to earn QAC back by not relying on it to reset to neutral.

Speaking of neutral, I have said about all I could to explain QAC and its risk/reward to the unfamiliar¹, but here's the tl;dr version:
QAC gave Pikachu a creative skill - requiring technically precise, subdued, and unpredictable use to not blow up in his face - that allowed Pikachu to do things that just come naturally to other characters. Most characters can close space or circumvent positional disadvantage just by swinging their long-range, disjointed attacks. Pikachu doesn't have this option, but QAC offered a more difficult, more dangerous direction.
QAC didn't circumvent positioning; it overcame it. QAC was always risky around anyone with hitboxes. It left Pikachu completely open and basically huge, and using it to regain position was a Hail Mary play that put Pikachu in an even worse position, hoping the opponent couldn't read Mrs. Wishy-Washy and that the player's fingers didn't fumble. Especially with the above changes and Melee-landlag making the threat of failure all the more ominous, QAC would be a thoughtful, unspammable move that requires proper usage to amount to anything.

But maybe the DT might still think the risk/reward is unbalanced. The appropriate response is to tweak the ratio, not remove the player's options altogether. One or both of the following could do that:

• QA can only be cancelled by jump. Thus, QAC could only lead directly to a safe position through wavelanding (more like frame-perfect wavedashing; more technically demanding with worse risks from failure than traditional QAC-WL). Frankly, I find QAC'd aerials (especially Fair autocanceling, basically negating any lag from QA) to be boring, especially compared to how strong an option they are. They, along with QAC-special and super-easy QAC-WL, seem way more arguably-OP (in both reward and lack-of-risk) than second-zip QAC, with much less room to innovate. The latter is just better design.
  
• QAC has minor recoil damage. If one is really so worried about QAC spam, have punishment happen automatically. Even if it's just a couple %, that's plenty for Pikachu's weight, so it should curtail usage, making the player weigh () their options that much more. Plus it's a flavorful change, following a common Pokémon practice and alluding to Pichu.

The key is to preserve fun and excitement for those playing and watching the game. Honestly, given the choice I'd personally much prefer (and I think it would be better for the game and its fans) for QAC restored with deliberate modifications than to have most of Pikachu's other buffs from Melee. Things like safer Fair, stronger Uair, bigger shield, and longer grab add no depth or draw, and just serve to make Pikachu easier, not more fun. Even making Bair less awesome would be better-advised.
I just think "easier and better" is the wrong direction, but I'll stop now before I get too dogmatic…

No camping, no spamming, no recovery, no negating stagger, not even necessarily good.
Just a fun, creative, unique tool.

Thanks for actually participating . Let's see:

Notable opponent
Wasn't punished (in that one situation you mentioned; otherwise, not so much)
Wouldn't be addressed (in the situation you mentioned, at least, Anther managed to tech before grabbing the ledge)
In neutral (not exactly neutral, but I really meant "when Pikachu's not on offense" anyway)
Without also spamming DD/SHFFL ☐

That would've been pretty good, if it was actually spamming QAC.
At 0:40 in particular, if QAC worked as proposed, and Anther had recognized that he had it there, I would have been excited and amazed at his creative use of it in an unusual situation. That situation was not recovery, mind you; it was Pikachu incidentally on the ledge at low percent.
Of course, if we look at the rest of the 26 minutes, Anther actually used QAC rather sparingly, and fails on most of the criteria.

It's not like the ledge is impossible to get off of: most characters could ledgedash -> spacing move/dash attack, many could ledgedash -> buffered roll, some could ledgehop -> aerial/quick projectile, and a few would've preferred to stay there. Plus there are moves that would be comparable to QAC in that situation: Illusion/Phantasm/Flash, Luigi Cylcone, Quick Draw, Cutter Dash, Withdraw, Teleport, etc. Except all of those options would still be available even regardless of whether the user had touched the ground. Sago also gets up as often (with stuff that would still work in 3.5), and Anther himself uses quite a variety of tactics in that set when on the ledge, not just QAC. All this stuff, including QAC, can be baited, read, and punished.
Anyway, I'm not sure where you're getting that being near the edge is supposed to necessarily mean doom. Especially with things like Bthrow -> Fsmash from Marth, Bthrow -> Fair from Sheik, B/Dthrow from many characters in general, run fast -> crossup shine from Fox, spaced aerials from Jiggs, Fortress Hogging, retreating for invincibility as Luigi, or command/suicide grabs. I can definitely see that usage falling under "great degree of control over their character due to the technical skill that they've achieved," though.


Strict interpretation of the design goals can lead to poor decisions, especially when combined with superficial understanding of a character. To illustrate:
We should homogenize Pika's Uair hitboxes. After all, off-stage edgeguarding is supposed to be risky, yet Pikachu doesn't fear it too much. The tail spike isn't used for anything else, anyway, and Uair would still be great for juggling. Plus it's different from what other characters have, is spammed all the time, is basically unpunishable, centralizes Pikachu's game, can reverse the match's momentum from the ledge, and Pikachu would still have other cool stuff.


Please, please stop justifying the nerf as if anyone thinks it didn't need nerfing.


I want to avoid things getting too heated, so I'd like to stress:
I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy him as he is, I'm just explaining why others don't, and what could be done so that they do.

 

[hype machine]

Im fine with the way pikachu is in pm 3.5. the only reason why i main pikachu tho is because Axe is my favorite player to watch on melee and i find his playstyle and punishes very entertaining. Pikachu in pm is borderline viable, there are just so much better characters in pm to use, if you plan on using pikachu you're going to have to work harder than most people. however i like using pikachu hes very fun to use if it wasnt for his u air, and nair, i wouldnt be using this character.

 

[666blaziken]

Thanks for actually participating . Let's see:

Notable opponent
Wasn't punished (in that one situation you mentioned; otherwise, not so much)
Wouldn't be addressed (in the situation you mentioned, at least, Anther managed to tech before grabbing the ledge)
In neutral (not exactly neutral, but I really meant "when Pikachu's not on offense" anyway)
Without also spamming DD/SHFFL ☐

That would've been pretty good, if it was actually spamming QAC.
At 0:40 in particular, if QAC worked as proposed, and Anther had recognized that he had it there, I would have been excited and amazed at his creative use of it in an unusual situation. That situation was not recovery, mind you; it was Pikachu incidentally on the ledge at low percent.
Of course, if we look at the rest of the 26 minutes, Anther actually used QAC rather sparingly, and fails on most of the criteria.

It's not like the ledge is impossible to get off of: most characters could ledgedash -> spacing move/dash attack, many could ledgedash -> buffered roll, some could ledgehop -> aerial/quick projectile, and a few would've preferred to stay there. Plus there are moves that would be comparable to QAC in that situation: Illusion/Phantasm/Flash, Luigi Cylcone, Quick Draw, Cutter Dash, Withdraw, Teleport, etc. Except all of those options would still be available even regardless of whether the user had touched the ground. Sago also gets up as often (with stuff that would still work in 3.5), and Anther himself uses quite a variety of tactics in that set when on the ledge, not just QAC. All this stuff, including QAC, can be baited, read, and punished.
Anyway, I'm not sure where you're getting that being near the edge is supposed to necessarily mean doom. Especially with things like Bthrow -> Fsmash from Marth, Bthrow -> Fair from Sheik, B/Dthrow from many characters in general, run fast -> crossup shine from Fox, spaced aerials from Jiggs, Fortress Hogging, retreating for invincibility as Luigi, or command/suicide grabs. I can definitely see that usage falling under "great degree of control over their character due to the technical skill that they've achieved," though.


Strict interpretation of the design goals can lead to poor decisions, especially when combined with superficial understanding of a character. To illustrate:
We should homogenize Pika's Uair hitboxes. After all, off-stage edgeguarding is supposed to be risky, yet Pikachu doesn't fear it too much. The tail spike isn't used for anything else, anyway, and Uair would still be great for juggling. Plus it's different from what other characters have, is spammed all the time, is basically unpunishable, centralizes Pikachu's game, can reverse the match's momentum from the ledge, and Pikachu would still have other cool stuff.


Please, please stop justifying the nerf as if anyone thinks it didn't need nerfing.


I want to avoid things getting too heated, so I'd like to stress:
I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy him as he is, I'm just explaining why others don't, and what could be done so that they do.

Ok, that makes more sense. I just didn't like that you instantly compared this nerf to nerfing falco's dair, or saying that this nerf makes pikachu identical to melee pikachu, so thank you. With that said, I remember seeing sethlon saying (on his AMA) that some characters still need to be slightly tweaked, so maybe pikachu is a candidate. Again, what would you rather see with the QAC nerf instead of only doing it on one zip?

 

[Cubelarooso]

I did not mean to to directly compare the moves with the Falco thing. Rather, I was trying to explain that the players' reactions would be similar. Likewise for the Melee thing: I'm not saying that Pikachu is identical to Melee, just trying to explain that some people may now think "He is so similar that I might as well just play the more popular game," and that's why there are fewer PM Pikachus.

A tip: It's useful to check messages when people quote them, just to confirm that you've already read them. People often edit quotes to add context (or humor) or quote things that weren't part of the immediate discussion, so the reader might miss out if they skip over every box.

How I'd design it…

Spoiler: Ideal QAC

Fix the glitch whereby sometimes Pikachu retains his double-jump if hit during QA, and add second-zip QAC. Make it so QAC is lost when Pikachu enters tumble (that is, when he takes enough knockback that he's forced to tech/stabilize himself), and regained when he lands (but, similar to Ganon's float, just grabbing the ledge doesn't count).
This specifically removes the least interesting, most objectionable uses. IE, when recovering against an opponent, and as an escape when on defense. However, he could still use it to recover from his own deep edgeguards (assuming the opponent didn't turn the tides), and QAC wouldn't just be hit out of him by every incidental move. On the other hand, it couldn't be used to forgo the ledge-game, since he'd have to have already gotten onstage to use it. Basically, Pikachu would have to earn QAC back by not relying on it to reset to neutral.

Speaking of neutral, I have said about all I could to explain QAC and its risk/reward to the unfamiliar¹, but here's the tl;dr version:
QAC gave Pikachu a creative skill - requiring technically precise, subdued, and unpredictable use to not blow up in his face - that allowed Pikachu to do things that just come naturally to other characters. Most characters can close space or circumvent positional disadvantage just by swinging their long-range, disjointed attacks. Pikachu doesn't have this option, but QAC offered a more difficult, more dangerous direction.
QAC didn't circumvent positioning; it overcame it. QAC was always risky around anyone with hitboxes. It left Pikachu completely open and basically huge, and using it to regain position was a Hail Mary play that put Pikachu in an even worse position, hoping the opponent couldn't read Mrs. Wishy-Washy and that the player's fingers didn't fumble. Especially with the above changes and Melee-landlag making the threat of failure all the more ominous, QAC would be a thoughtful, unspammable move that requires proper usage to amount to anything.

But maybe the DT might still think the risk/reward is unbalanced. The appropriate response is to tweak the ratio, not remove the player's options altogether. One or both of the following could do that:

• QA can only be cancelled by jump. Thus, QAC could only lead directly to a safe position through wavelanding (although it'd be more akin to frame-perfect wavedashing; more technically demanding with worse risks from failure than traditional QAC-WL). Frankly, I find QAC'd aerials (especially Fair autocanceling, basically negating any lag from QA) to be boring, especially compared to how strong an option they are. They, along with QAC-special and super-easy QAC-WL, seem way more arguably-OP (in both reward and lack-of-risk) than second-zip QAC, with much less room to innovate. The latter is just better design.
  
• QAC has minor recoil damage. If one is really so worried about QAC spam, have punishment happen automatically. Even if it's just a couple %, that's plenty for Pikachu's weight, so it should curtail usage, making the player weigh () their options that much more. Plus it's a flavorful change, following a common Pokémon practice and alluding to Pichu.

The key is to preserve fun and excitement for those playing and watching the game. Honestly, given the choice I'd personally much prefer (and I think it would be better for the game and its fans) for QAC restored with deliberate modifications than to have most of Pikachu's other buffs from Melee. Things like safer Fair, stronger Uair, bigger shield, and longer grab add no depth or draw, and just serve to make Pikachu easier, not more fun. Even making Bair less awesome would be better-advised.
I just think "easier and better" is the wrong direction, but I'll stop now before I get too dogmatic…

No camping, no spamming, no recovery, no negating stagger, not even necessarily good.
Just a fun, creative, unique tool.

If any of that is poorly worded, I can clarify.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Also, to explain the challenge: It's that, by analyzing how Pikachu was played, one notices that most excessive QAC'ing was in order to reset to neutral (the second-most common being for fun between stocks), and that is the thing that should be excised, not its use in neutral. Neutral-use was actually sparse due to being unsafe, and did not centralize Pikachu's game. It merely supplemented dash-dancing and SHFFL's, to which I would say that usage of three techniques is less centralized than usage of only two.

I strongly hope that Pikachu receives some attention going forward, because I care about this character, and this game's competitive future. That's why I profess so vehemently. Hopefully Juushichi or whichever poor bloke got saddled with Pikachu will read this thread and that other one, and take its contents and cases into consideration.
I love that PM is of, for, and by the fans first and foremost, and believe it can only reach its highest potential (its apex, if you will ) from understanding and applying that edict. Sometimes vines must be trimmed for the good of the flowerbed, but it should be noted when a rose begins to wilt. (I really like communicating in analogies)
3.5 Pikachu is understandable given the goals and information, but it has a flaw that should be acknowledged. For the time being, though, Pikachu will likely remain in NU, with the potential for UU if only it weren't NFE.
Matchup inexperience is the Everstone in this analogy, I guess, but it takes up the item slot and isn't great for a sweeper.

 

[Anther]

I think Quick attack is still a really good tool in neutral... as PandaPanda tries to show with his infographic. I think the biggest issue is that people don't need to know the matchup intimately in order to fight against Pikachu when he has the super long distance quick attack at his disposal.

I'm going to try to end up on a few netplay streams over the next week and maybe through critiques and brainstorming we can jumpstart some ideas on keeping pikachu fun and dangerous . A few big themes that I've been using a lot in 3.5 are...

• Dthrow->usmash being guaranteed at low percents on a lot of floaty characters is really nice.
• Uair->bair->bair at low percents sets up for edgeguards almost instantly.
  
• Uair->bair at high percents is still borked.
• You can still use QAC to grab ledge from practically anywhere on the stage.. which means the mobility craziness is still there.
• Qac1 can QAC from the tips of platforms to speed up chases or at least get you to the ground without needing to jump.
  
• Edge cancelling quick attack seems.. easier?! It could be just from me playing smash 4 every so often though. I definitely can't do this consistent enough to consider it part of my main strategy though!
• Being able to mix up a ledge grab recovery vs landing barely above the stage from off stage.
• QaC is still fun!

So... don't give up pm pika for melee pika yet !

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Yes Ledge cancels are very easy int his version you see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=soNFxT4BgUg

That took me like 5 minutes to make, there are many more angles and distances for edge cancelling and once you get them down it becomes pretty easy.

"Wait but what about stages without platforms?"

In stages without platforms you would be only quick attacking into the ground anyways, in which case QaC 1 is more than enough.


Also, a lot of characters in pm don't potent oos options that hit behind them, so when crossing up you can implement sh double aerials for some insane shield pressure on cross up. Although this takes some technical finesse, you need to be able to quickly hit all the right buttons while at the same time properly space yourself. I'll probably make a video of it in better quality than that panda challenge thing. (I'll probably re upload that one too)

 

[Scatz]

I feel as is the potential for QAC1 is integrated quite well even though people would like think it's worse than 3.02 QAC.

QAC1 compliments Pika's rushdown game and ability to land behind opponents. Since he excels at pressuring when he's in that specific spot, mixing up between QAC1 and Nair rushes can make the opponent have a hard time guessing, and they still have to worry about Uair! Then when you add in the face that you can still get aerials out (Bair being the most applicable) and waveland for safer spacing, it should create an overwhelming option to counter opponent's options with tech chases or potentially death. This stuff just has to be conditioned properly first to be effective.

As for his overall game vs the cast, it's definitely a little weaker because of some difficulties in approaching properly, but I think it comes down to his need for patience in the neutral, which isn't something people prefer to do since it's more boring than just using QAC to get the quicker answer.

 

[Juushichi]

wooooooo. yeah

EDIT:
Also, I haven't forgotten about this thread. I come back from time to time to look and see the discussion lifted around.

In addition, some of you may or may not know that Pikachu does have a DACUS and I believe it goes further than his normal JC upsmash. About a month or two ago, I thought that Pikachu had a guaranteed fthrow -> DACUS on floaties at low%, but the tests came back a bit inconclusive. I didn't test it on all character types yet, but I kinda went away from Pika to focus on Yomi and Sheik more.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I just remembered I had asked someone who thought Pika was bottom tier what was wrong and this is his response.

A lot of our discussion has been move/tech centric, which I assume means that as a concept Pika is fine and balanced in the PM meta. So I just want to confirm something that may be obvious, but does Pika only need minor adjustments/tweaks on his moves if at all or is there anything more fundamentally wrong/unhealthy about him that is preventing more people from using/being interested in him that may require more drastic changes? I want to say if anything he's just hard as hell to pick up, which shouldn't be something that warrants any change, but perhaps there are poor design aspects that originate even from Melee or 64 that we haven't touched on?

 

[Scatz]

Pika ends up being this mix of offense and defense by using speed, but it's thrown off because he doesn't have that type of true speed that separates him apart from Fox or Falcon. He already has issues because of range, poor tech rolls, and slightly worse combo weight than others, so he shouldn't have issues when it comes to his speed (or at least burst speed).

I felt that he's one of the characters that could utilize burst speed without being stupidly good with it. Maybe that's why people dropped him?

 

[Juushichi]

YMMV, but I think if just Pikachu's grab was improved, we would see a rather drastic shift in some MUs, thus improving him as a character.

So yes, if I were to give Pikachu adjustments it likely would be rather minor ones, I guess. Personal opinion, not "official" Dev opinion or whatever.

 

[sheNanagans]

pika grab buff is really all i can see myself asking for. skull bash buff would be niceish too, but idk what to buff on it outside of lowering endlag or maybe adding a wall jump out of it.

 

[Choice Scarf]

It's funny how Heavy Skull Bash from the sm4sh custom moves is exactly how I imagined Skull Bash to actually work. Strong up close, less as it travels, and decent speed and hitbox placement that seems reasonably intuitive. Of course this is PM so little chance that will happen.

Anyone ever play Balanced Brawl? I think one of the changes that mod had was that Pika could just cancel the Skull Bash during charge or something.

 

[Scatz]

pika grab buff is really all i can see myself asking for. skull bash buff would be niceish too, but idk what to buff on it outside of lowering endlag or maybe adding a wall jump out of it.

I can see a better grab helping him, but why though? He's got short arms for a reason. I think it's the fact he doesn't have great answers (outside of speed and mixups) to CC or doesn't have simple answers to many situations as compared to other characters.

I've thought about a charge-able skull bash, but idk how to implement it without it being super easy to net kills lol

 

[Comet7]

if pikachu could have pichu's grab i'd pick him up faster than the hitbox of shine comes out.