All things Bowser can Tough Guy

[Zapp Branniglenn]

We've had data on Bowser's Tough Guy mechanic for a long time, but only a few people knew how it was locked away in a spoiler tab of the moveset discussion thread. So, I recompiled the list, updated some incorrect values, and here we are.

Spoiler: How does tough guy work?

Tough Guy is a character specific mechanic added to Bowser in Smash 4. If an attack deals an amount of knockback that is under a certain threshold, Bowser will not flinch. It never "turns off" when Bowser attacks or is airborne. Since it's dependent on knockback specifically, that means move staling and rage do have an impact on how long they are armored. Furthermore, Bowser can crouch to armor more moves. Crouching reduces the knockback of all incoming moves, so this thread points out this difference with "crouching tough guy". We only get the added protection when we are crouching and staying still. Crawling or performing Dtilt take away this benefit.

Spoiler: the exhaustive list of moves Bowser can Tough Guy

All % ranges are training mode values which do not factor move stale negation or rage. indicates a custom move. Numbers in red are the crouching tough guy range.
/
Fast Fireball/Capsule (weak 1.5% hit) 0-193% / 298%


Uair late 7% hit 0-X / 0%
Fireball (close 6% hit) 0-55% / 82%
- (far 5% hit) 0-64%/ 95%
Bouncing Fireball (close 6% hit) 0-55% / 82%
- (medium 5% hit) 0-64%/ 95%
- (far 4% hit) 0-77 / 113%
All Up specials (single coin hit) 0-999%


Nair (late 6% hit) 0-X / 2%
Dair (first three hits only) 0-6% / 51%
Mr. Saturn (neutral toss) 0-9% / 25%
Mr. Saturn (smash toss) 0-7% / 20%


Dair (first six kicks) 0-X / 9%


Jab 1 0-X / 18%
Dash attack (multihit) 0-3% / 18%
Fsmash (multihit) 0-X / 29%


Wario Waft (uncharged trip) 0-999%
Garlic Breath (close range stun hit) 0-X / 999%


Jab 1 0-X / 7%
Jumping Headbutt 0-81% / 101%
*Bowser won't get buried by the move. However, if you are airborne when hit, Bowser will suffer knockback


Jab and Rapid Jabs 0-X/ 999%
Judge 2 0-8% /
Short Order Chef (bacon) 0- can't be armored
- (steak) 0-101% / 256%
- (skinny fish) 0- 120% / 300%
- (fat fish) 0-999%


Rapid jabs 0-120% / 158%
Dair (weak hit) 0-11% / 22%


Quickfire Bow (uncharged) 0-17 % / 50%
- (full charge) 0-1% / 16%


Dair (late 4 % hit) 0-20% / 33%
Nayru's Love 0-X / 30%
Nayru's rejection 0-X / 40%
*Bowser is still turned around, but won't flinch


Rapid jab 0-43 / 148%


Hero's Bow (uncharged) 0-6% / 24%
- (full charged) 0-X / 0%
Fire Arrow (uncharged direct hit) 0-999%
-(full charged direct hit) 0-527% / 664%
Piercing Arrow (uncharged) 0-390% / 572%
- (full charged) 0-140% / 208%


Charge Shot (uncharged) 0-X / 2%
Dense Charge Shot 0-X / 0%


Blast Shot (uncharged) 0-X / 999%

/
Rapid jab 0-X / 999%
Pit's Bow (uncharged) 0-X / 5%
Dark Pit's Bow (uncharged) 0-X / 3%


Rapid jab 0-162% / 263%

/
Dancing Blade (downward finisher multihit) 0-97% /


Rapid wind jab 0-X / 47%


Clay Pidgeon (reticle shots only) 0-306% /


Jab 1 0-74% / 119%
Rapid Jab 0-X / 999%


Jab (multihits before finisher) 0-93% / 150%


Rapid Jab (tipper) 0-X/ 999%
Super Dedede Jump (star hit) 0-X / 4%
Quick Dedede Jump (star hit) 0-X / 4%


Rapid Jab (tip of hitbox) 0-36/143%
Nair (late 6% hit) 0-X / 2%


Blaster 0-X / 999%
Explosive Blaster (multihits before finisher) 0-X/ 999%


Jab (close hit) 0-8% / 44%
- (Far hit) 0-34% / 74%


Flamethrower (weak hit) 0-X / 34%
Fire Fang (multhit) 0-X / 999%
Fireball Cannon (weak hit) 0-46% / 92%


Aura Sphere (uncharged) 0-X / 0%
Piercing Aura Sphere 0-X / 44%
*results obtained by maintaining 0 aura


Jab 1 0-X / 5%
Spinphony 0-999%
*Bowser is still turned around but doesn't flinch.


Rapid jab 0-50% / 94%
Bair (first hit) 0-0% / 11%
Bair (second hit) 0-1% / 13%


Jab 1 0-8% / 26%
Dtilt 0-X / 0%
Backwards Arm Rotor (first hit facing Bowser) 0-X / 999%
Slip Gyro (sliding across ground) 0-X / 5%


Jab 1 0-13% / 41%
Jab 2 0-13% / 41%
Dtilt (close hit) 0-164% / 209%
Dtilt (far hit) 0-189% / 258%
Pk Fire (pillar) 0-44%
Lasting PK Thunder (tail) 0-104% / 150%


Rapid jab (at the tip) 0-101% / 161%


Dsmash 0-3% / 11%


Dizzy Whistle 0-999%
*Bowser is spun around but will not flinch.


Jab 3 (bury hit) 0-19% / 46%


Jab/Ftilt/Nair (mid to max range pellet) 0-372% / 510%
Crash Bomb (multihits before finisher) 0-190% / 312%
Leaf Shield (individual leaves) 0-17% / 79%


Double Spring 0-X / 8%


Rapid Jab 0-X / 52%
Shadow Ball (uncharged) 0-X / 33%


Dtilt (far hit) 0-24% / 55%
PK Thunder (tail) 0-115%


Double Edge dance (donward finisher multihit) 0-97


Weak Dtilt (far hit) 0-X / 999%
Shakunetsu Hadoken (multihits before finisher) 0-166%


Rapid jab 0-52


Bullet Climax (uncharged) 0-116%


Charge Shot (uncharged) 0-X / 2%

Let me know if I missed anything and I will update the list.

And while we're here, I'm curious what people think of Tough Guy as a whole. Do you think it should have been buffed in some way? If so, how? Should it return in a future iteration of Smash? What are the best moves we can armor and how do they affect the matchups with those characters?

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Look at all those stars. While this is a great list you've brought together, Tough Guy hardly seems to make a difference as it is, right now. However, I'm not sure if I'd want it buffed significantly. If it was buffed so that Sheik's needles didn't go through it, I'd be okay with it. But honestly, Bowser is so heavy and is hard to KO so I feel like any significant buffs to TG would make him overpowered.

 

[constable lemon]

You missed Corrin's rapid jab hits and Roy's side special down angled finisher.

 

[Greward]

Tough guy hardly ever matters, unfortunately.
It's mostly useful in megaman and Luigi matchups.
I like the idea but it's useful on so little matchups that it usually isn't relevant. They should've made it stronger against projectiles.

 

[pitfall356]

Giving him the crouch resistance on crawling would have been nice so that Bowser could get through Falco's lasers/move in on enemies that he otherwise couldn't get through. Giving dtilt armor would probably be bad, though.

As a mechanic, it's... Dangerous, if buffed. Nerfed wouldn't make too much of a difference, but I'd really suffer against Megaman and Luigi. Those two have the most benefit when it comes to TG. Little Mac to a lesser extent, but most Macs don't throw out jab.

If anyone uses the metal cap item, it drastically increases their weight, right? When doing this, they too get this tough guy armor. I think TG has to do less with Bowser and mostly just because Bowser is so heavy he just doesn't flinch because certain moves have so little knockback.

If I had to ask for any buffs, it would just be some consistency and maybe less hitstun. First two hits of Mac's jab pop Bowser into the air, where any inputs then come out (generally in the form of an aerial that doesn't come out in time or an airdodge into the ground). Then he gets tons of hitstun while Mac lays into him with rapids, and the finisher can come out faster than Bowser can raise shield. This is painful to watch.

Adding crawl armor could be a thing, making certain attacks that we already armor be armored for longer. This would give us armor against certain projectiles so that specific MUs are no longer just us wading through a wall of hell... These are the things that TG would be pleasant for. Needles should definitely be armorable, but I'm not sure I can say for sure on anything other than that. Maybe Falco's laser.

It's hard to say on whether TG should be a thing in a future title or not. If they really implemented it with Bowser in mind, it seems like they went half-way with it and then dropped the idea. Passive armor is bad, I dunno. Just seems like an experiment they abandoned.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If anyone uses the metal cap item, it drastically increases their weight, right? When doing this, they too get this tough guy armor. I think TG has to do less with Bowser and mostly just because Bowser is so heavy he just doesn't flinch because certain moves have so little knockback.

This is a great comparison. Metal Cap armor is (mechanically) very much like tough guy and has existed since the first smash bros. game. Applying the same kind of effect to a character passively may have sounded like a good idea to them for years. However, you would be wrong in assuming other characters have tough guy in smash 4 because of their weight alone. It is definitely unique to Bowser. Even shield shulk will flinch, just not for longer than a few frames like other heavies.

But I have to agree on where they went wrong with tough guy for this game. Most armored moves seem accidental. They're rapid jabs and weak multihits that are only weak because they had trouble designing the move to be inescapable without massively undercutting knockback stats.

I love character-specific mechanics in this game. But Bowser already felt different with the new moves and animations. If they had infinite time and testers, they could have studied Bowser's options against a variety of characters and decided from there which moves they might want him to be able to just run through rather than block. And with For Glory replays and a wealth of competitive tournaments over a year to study, I was somewhat expecting this to be an area of Bowser's playstyle they want to target. Like you said, Tough Guy can either be really broken or really insignificant. Half of this depends on the threshold for knockback we can armor, and the other half depends on the entire remaining cast and their specific moves. It's too many variables to attempt to balance without completely polarizing specific MUs.

Tough guy sounds like something they may want to implement on heavyweights in general. Charizard, Ganon, Dedede, DK, all large, sluggish fighters that can relate to the difficulty of dealing with projectiles and jabs. Again, much of this assumes they are willing to place almost limitless hours and testers on such an area of balance, but imagine these types of moves were programmed to not flinch if they don't deal at least a certain amount of knockback against the target's weight. Place the mechanic on the moves and not the characters, and balance may be easier to attain. But if not, it's probably best that they stay away from ideas like passive armor. It's not an idea that inhibits a player's cunning or skill when a move successfully performed doesn't make them flinch. It's not like blocking or avoiding an attack, where the victim actually did something for the favorable result.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bowser is the only character in the game that Spinphony is actually worth using on.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser is the only character in the game that Spinphony is actually worth using on.

Indeed! Also Olimar's dizzy whistle. These ranged cape moves are just about guaranteed to kill Bowser when he's forced to use Fortress. See these are the kind of weird matchup specific strategies I was looking forward to when everybody was all "Customs at EVO WHOOO" a year ago. And it left me wanting to delete Little Mac with Turbulent Bomb. Now I never will.

 

[Mugutu]

Bowser seems to be able to Tough Guy Sonic's up smash multi-hits. I can't recall a single time I've been able to connect all hits without Bowser falling out.

 

[Jerodak]

Bowser seems to be able to Tough Guy Sonic's up smash multi-hits. I can't recall a single time I've been able to connect all hits without Bowser falling out.

Bowser is heavy and large, so he's just very likely to fall out of it if you try to hit him with it while he's grounded, especially if you only clip him with it. It actually has nothing to do with tough guy as much as his basic attributes. If you want to land the full up smash, try landing it while Bowser is in the air, if you're directly under him then it should be way more likely to work.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bowser seems to be able to Tough Guy Sonic's up smash multi-hits. I can't recall a single time I've been able to connect all hits without Bowser falling out.

That's not tough guy, that's just weird hurtbox/hitbox interactions.

 

[Mythzotick]

Tough Guy is a huge X-factor in the / match up. If Bowser didn't have this unique mechanic to him, I'd argue that this match up would go from even to 60:40 or worse in the blue bomber's favor as Tough Guy almost invalidates Mega Man's lemons; which is his main game plan.