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All aircraft, report - Star Fox General Discussion

IsmaR

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AKA Starwing, AKA Lylat Wars, AKA Dinosaur Planet, AKA the game that let us hear high paced animal gibberish and is responsible for rapidly destroying our thumbs in pursuit of 20XX.


Star Fox is a 3D rail shooter video game developed by Nintendo spanning across several console generations, with a long history of obvious ups and downs (from unreleased games to franchise stagnation). Still, enough fans persist in remembering/celebrating their favorites (including the new re-release on Nintendo Switch Online's Expansion Pack), and continue to remain hopeful of what is to come in the future. As the title implies, anything SF, be it news, discussion, fanart etc. goes here (as far as site rules still apply, just be cool/civil with others).

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As a general reminder, any discussion pertaining to future Smash specific speculation (such as movesets/future reps or cuts) should go in the stickied thread here: https://smashboards.com/threads/next-smash-speculation-discussion-thread.515747/
 

HYRULESHERO42

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Love Star Fox, hope the mess that was Zero doesn’t push the franchise into hiatus.

I actually liked Assault, I know that’s an unpopular opinion
 

KneeOfJustice99

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I think StarFox, alongside many other Nintendo IPs, should return in some way or another. Even if it's a new game with a similar rail-shooter gameplay style to the earlier titles (though with new setpieces, planets and story,) I think it would be really nice to see it come back... I just hope Zero didn't pull a Zip-Lash and kill the entire series for good.
 

Isaac: Venus Adept

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I'm still peeved that we don't have an online multiplayer StarFox yet, I'd personally like a refinement of what StarFox Assault was trying to do with better controls and a better mix of on-foot missions and on-rails Arwing missions
 

MAtgSy

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I'm still peeved that we don't have an online multiplayer StarFox yet, I'd personally like a refinement of what StarFox Assault was trying to do with better controls and a better mix of on-foot missions and on-rails Arwing missions
Command had online multiplayer.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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SF has an innate ability to have really interesting elements that they either don't utilize to their potential or arbitrarily decide not to bring back.

"64's on rails exploration leading to different paths and thus different levels works so well for replayability, that clearly the next couple of games shouldn't have them."

"Hey the maps in Assault aren't the best for all range single player, the on foot segments are a bit rough, and it's too linear, but the multiplayer is universally praised, so we won't bring that back."

"Command's story is laughable, the RTS elements unnecessary, and the stylus controls are awkward, but being able to select your own ship and online multiplayer are such great concepts that they should just stay in this game."

There's a fantastic hypothetical Star Fox game taking the best elements from the SNES games, 64, Assault, Command, Zero, & the SF elements from Starlink but who knows if we'll ever get it.
 

KrystalRules

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I have some hope that with recent resurgence of Nintendo IPs that have been given new life Star Fox will get similar treatment with the Switch.
 
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SDFox

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RIP the old thread
anything new around here since I've been gone?
 

Quillion

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SF has an innate ability to have really interesting elements that they either don't utilize to their potential or arbitrarily decide not to bring back.

"64's on rails exploration leading to different paths and thus different levels works so well for replayability, that clearly the next couple of games shouldn't have them."

"Hey the maps in Assault aren't the best for all range single player, the on foot segments are a bit rough, and it's too linear, but the multiplayer is universally praised, so we won't bring that back."

"Command's story is laughable, the RTS elements unnecessary, and the stylus controls are awkward, but being able to select your own ship and online multiplayer are such great concepts that they should just stay in this game."

There's a fantastic hypothetical Star Fox game taking the best elements from the SNES games, 64, Assault, Command, Zero, & the SF elements from Starlink but who knows if we'll ever get it.
Good point there; I already thought Pokémon was bad about that, but maybe so is Star Fox.

But to be fair, at least because Star Fox gets tossed around various other studios with no coherent vision between them, they want to make every Star Fox game a unique experience rather than polish the same core experience more and more like Mario Kart. Some are better than others to be sure, but the franchise has that going for it.
 

Dinoman96

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Here's a crazy two hour long analysis of all the Star Fox games, including an interest take on Command's story.
 

Quillion

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You know, could it be possible that Star Fox just isn't suited to being a franchise?

Every installment Miyamoto has ever been involved in was just a reboot of the Andross war, while with every other installment the franchise was just tossed around a ton of other studios who want to make different games with it.

I wish there was a middle ground between doing the Andross war again and again and making a completely different experience with gameplay and presentation alike, but they've never taken it.
 

Swamp Sensei

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You know, could it be possible that Star Fox just isn't suited to being a franchise?

Every installment Miyamoto has ever been involved in was just a reboot of the Andross war, while with every other installment the franchise was just tossed around a ton of other studios who want to make different games with it.

I wish there was a middle ground between doing the Andross war again and again and making a completely different experience with gameplay and presentation alike, but they've never taken it.
Its suited to be a franchise.

If anything its writer's block and a fandom resistant to change more than anything.
 

Quillion

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If anything its writer's block
Maybe if they were open to doing new things with Andross instead of "Andross war" or "new villain every time" the writer's block could be removed.

and a fandom resistant to change more than anything.
I'm pretty sure the fandom wants a middle ground instead of Star Fox 1/64 retread or totally different genre with Star Fox slapped on.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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You know, could it be possible that Star Fox just isn't suited to being a franchise?

Every installment Miyamoto has ever been involved in was just a reboot of the Andross war, while with every other installment the franchise was just tossed around a ton of other studios who want to make different games with it.

I wish there was a middle ground between doing the Andross war again and again and making a completely different experience with gameplay and presentation alike, but they've never taken it.
Its hard to say because the franchise has never felt like its gotten the chance to directly evolve outside the path from Star Fox 1 to 64 (and that's entirely due to very divergent direction of SF2 being skipped). Even Assault as strong as it was, was a regression from 64 in some ways, gimping the level design for the sake of multiplayer and ditching the multiple paths that gave the previous two mainline entries their greater replay value.

Realistically there's a decent chance it was never going to be a AAA seller, but there has been an opportunity to be more than what its been if Nintendo wasn't so uninterested in developing its core identity as a space shooter in favor of awkwardly blending other genres into it or leaning into gimmickry. It could have been the company's Ace Combat or Rogue Squadron with proper care.
 
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Quillion

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Its hard to say because the franchise has never felt like its gotten the chance to directly evolve outside the path from Star Fox 1 to 64 (and that's entirely due to very divergent direction of SF2 being skipped). Even Assault as strong as it was, was a regression from 64 in some ways, gimping the level design for the sake of multiplayer and ditching the multiple paths that gave the previous two mainline entries their greater replay value.

Realistically there's a decent chance it was never going to be a AAA seller, but there has been an opportunity to be more than what its been if Nintendo wasn't so uninterested in developing its core identity as a space shooter in favor of awkwardly blending other genres into it or leaning into gimmickry. It could have been the company's Ace Combat or Rogue Squadron with proper care.
What could Star Fox learn from other flight shooter franchises like Ace Combat and Rogue Squadron then? Michael Jackson's "study the greats and become greater" principle could certainly help for Star Fox if they saw the greats as other flight shooters instead of Zelda or third-person infantry shooters.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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What could Star Fox learn from other flight shooter franchises like Ace Combat and Rogue Squadron then? Michael Jackson's "study the greats and become greater" principle could certainly help for Star Fox if they saw the greats as other flight shooters instead of Zelda or third-person infantry shooters.
At least with Rogue Squadron, I'd say utilize at least some of the segmented/yet open level structure from that and combine it with the Rail Shooter elements from SF when appropriate. To use an odd comparison, an ideal Star Fox title should be like a strong Metal Gear Solid game; the initial experience should emphasize the sense of being an interactive story, but there should also be significant depth and replayability from in game experimentation beyond that. Like Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance was a triumph of story and themes, while sporting a bunch of VR levels strongly based around purely utilizing stealth and/or weapons in whatever manner you wanted to finish them.

Like imagine a Star Fox game where the main campaign did focus a lot around rail shooting, plot/character development coming from the in game chatter, and very much based around being Fox McCloud in a space adventure. Pretty reminiscent of SF64 at first, but there would also be the equivalent of a mission mode with more open levels a;a Rogue Squadron, freely able to choose your pilots and/or ships for the stages, the ability to give commands to your wingmen, as well as specific challenges to do. From a practical standpoint you couldn't really do a major character/story focus with (outside cast specific mini-campaigns with Falco/Peppy/Slippy/etc) but the options there are already offering incentive to replay the game a lot beyond just trying out the story mode again.

That's without getting into really appealing features like online dog fights, co-op story modes, or even slowly incorporating small RPG elements like gradually improving the Arwing/s via parts you earn. The pieces are all there, and a good balance between the cinematic experience and gameplay depth can be pulled off, they just have to be embraced.
 

Quillion

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At least with Rogue Squadron, I'd say utilize at least some of the segmented/yet open level structure from that and combine it with the Rail Shooter elements from SF when appropriate. To use an odd comparison, an ideal Star Fox title should be like a strong Metal Gear Solid game; the initial experience should emphasize the sense of being an interactive story, but there should also be significant depth and replayability from in game experimentation beyond that. Like Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance was a triumph of story and themes, while sporting a bunch of VR levels strongly based around purely utilizing stealth and/or weapons in whatever manner you wanted to finish them.

Like imagine a Star Fox game where the main campaign did focus a lot around rail shooting, plot/character development coming from the in game chatter, and very much based around being Fox McCloud in a space adventure. Pretty reminiscent of SF64 at first, but there would also be the equivalent of a mission mode with more open levels a;a Rogue Squadron, freely able to choose your pilots and/or ships for the stages, the ability to give commands to your wingmen, as well as specific challenges to do. From a practical standpoint you couldn't really do a major character/story focus with (outside cast specific mini-campaigns with Falco/Peppy/Slippy/etc) but the options there are already offering incentive to replay the game a lot beyond just trying out the story mode again.

That's without getting into really appealing features like online dog fights, co-op story modes, or even slowly incorporating small RPG elements like gradually improving the Arwing/s via parts you earn. The pieces are all there, and a good balance between the cinematic experience and gameplay depth can be pulled off, they just have to be embraced.
One main story mode and a story-free Free Play mode is something I'd like to see in more linear games, including Star Fox. I've also been thinking about aircraft customization as well (hopefully on top of the personal ships that SF2 and Command used).

Still, there could still be potential for a Star Fox third-person infantry shooter assuming it has better controls and level design.
 

Ridley_Prime

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I agree that online play has been the most missed opportunity with this series; I know Command had it, but just talking about a more robust online experience that you would get now compared to back on the DS. Online co-op particularly seems like it would be a no-brainer with Star Fox being what it is. Even the 3rd Rogue Squadron had split-screen co-op, since that series was brought up. Anyway, I'm just not sure there's a $60 demand for single player railshooters in this day and age.

That said, I had a higher opinion on Zero than most did, having enjoyed it aside from one or two parts. Apart from everything else said on it, the main problem was that it came out a gen too late; nevermind that it was on the worst selling Nintendo console, a death sentence for a niche IP. Despite what others said I hoped it would get ported to Switch like most Wii U games so it would get a 2nd chance, but to not much surprise, it was one of the few games that didn't.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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The sad irony of Zero was that it was a very safe game in almost every way except the one that might have mattered most; accessible gameplay. Given how perilious its market situation already was and on a failed console to boot? Anything that it lack vast mass market appeal was going to hurt it, and the two screen setup did that in spades.
 

Quillion

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Anyway, I'm just not sure there's a $60 demand for single player railshooters in this day and age.
Maybe if Star Fox gets an indie farmout and they go for SNES low poly aesthetic to save resources, we could get a single player rail shooter that doesn't have to be $60.
 

Diddy Kong

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Star Fox Adventures was as beautiful as it was tragic. I would take a Donkey Kong game with this formula. Speaking of, Star Fox might be the sole Nintendo franchise that's almost as cursed as DK and same time having huge potential and a loveable cast that's mostly kept alive through legendary status, Smash and spin offs.
 

Ridley_Prime

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At least Star Fox was given more chances than F-Zero, though shame what became of it still. And yeah, Adventures was a guilty pleasure of mine.

Also, "happy anniversary" to the Rare buyout which happened exactly 20 years from now, the ramifications of which can still be felt today.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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YouTube creator Church of Kondo, who has done some wonderful HD versions of various SNES & N64 soundtracks using the original samples, has started working on the original SNES Star Fox and its glorious:

 

LiveStudioAudience

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A Rom Hack of SNES Star Fox has appeared which is basically a brand new game. Don't know how long it'll last before Nintendo tries to yank it, but figured it was worth highlighting.
 
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