Air Dodge to Frame Synced Back Air [not viable]

[Dr. Tuen]

Hello All!

I was pointed to an interesting phenomenon via @Fox Is Openly Deceptive and the Toon Link Boards. Their character has the ability to frame sync their up air after an air dodge. That has some pretty awesome combo implications, so I looked around at all the other characters in the game. First, a short review:

In principle, a frame sync* requires a hitbox to come out on the frame before landing. This forces the landing lag and the attacker hit lag to overlap, shortening the overall landing time for the attacker. While this does not work on shields, the potential for additional combo options is pretty great. The mechanics of frame syncing aren't 100% understood. For instance, I can't get Falco's down air to work in frame advance mode, despite it being the Case Zero example in Izaw's original video. I bring this to you all to encourage testing. If I get the time, I'll confirm the results myself.

Here's the important data for us!

Zero Suit Samus:

Short Hop Time: 38 Frames
Air Dodge Time: 30 Frames
Difference: 8 Frames
Back Air First Hitbox: Frame 8

I have not extensively tested this yet, and will endeavor to the next time I'm at home, since this will hopefully be a short testing period.

What combo options will this create if true? Who knows! Back air to flip kick? This makes me wonder...

• Can specials with landing lag (i.e. the attack of flip kick) be frame synced?
• Is it possible to rise from under the stage and land the last hit of boost kick near the ground?
• If flip kick can be frame synced, are there guaranteed setups for it using move timings, platforms, or both?

Someday, this century I'm sure, I'll be done with my PhD (wasn't that supposed to be done in December? Oh right, graduate school doesn't work like that, ha ha) and I'll update my old work and get back onto researching ZSS 100%. Until then...

Cheers and happy researching!

 

[Meta_X]

I've been trying this out in training mode (...frame syncing works in training mode, right..?) but can't get it to work. At 1/4 speed with SH >buffered airdodge > buffered backair, it looks like I always hit a frame early. I've tried fastfalling it at different points but the closest I get is the frame that the animation comes out but there is no hitbox. If there is a hitbox on that frame then it's small and hard to find and I'm sure is what we're looking for. But even if it is, that requires very precise fastfalling so the airdodge thing only helps a little. :/

But I did discover while trying this out that you can interrupt airdodge into zair! I'm sure you guys already knew about that but I had no idea

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Yeeeeeah.

Hype train is derailed. I got hypothetical numbers for this about 36 hours ago and got real excited because ZSS had one of only 13 moves that worked this way.

WHELP, it turns out only 3 of them trigger frame sync effects. Diddy Kong's neutral air, Marth's down air, and Toon Link's up air. It's sparked some very fascinating updates and leads into the real nature of the frame sync phenomenon... but it has ultimately failed to lead somewhere useful for ZSS.

Fast falling at different points could help, but would ultimately require timing a frame perfect input that could, by chance, leave you without an aerial.

It'll still be interesting to investigate frame sync setups for down B (if that's even possible)... but otherwise... bleh.

Meta_X zair does interrupt air dodges, but it turns out doing that close to the ground carries the air dodge lag penalty with it. Super fun!

 

[andrebound]

I've tested a bit of frame sync bair to flip kick myself and from what I've found it's not possible to true combo at any percent

 

[pichuthedk]

I've tested a bit of frame sync bair to flip kick myself and from what I've found it's not possible to true combo at any percent

What about something like up air like you try to go for reversing for the front hit.

 

[andrebound]

You mean like reverse up air frame sync into flip kick?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

For the record, I believe the first viable transition frame on the flip kick is frame 18. The kick takes 9 frames. So whatever set up you want for flip kick needs at least 28 advantage frames. More if ZSS needs to fall.

 

[DeLux]

Try on non-flat stages for an extra frame or 2 to FF the Bair maybe?

Just so I'm reading the info right, air dodge > Bair must be buffered or frame perfect for the Bair to come out?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Try on non-flat stages for an extra frame or 2 to FF the Bair maybe?

Just so I'm reading the info right, air dodge > Bair must be buffered or frame perfect for the Bair to come out?

In this instance, on flat ground, buffered air dodge to bair produces a hitbox on the frame before ZSS lands. That usually meets the requirements for a frame sync, but the phenomenon is not completely understood (despite what many on these boards will want to claim). In fact, for some moves (Toon Link's buffered air dodge to up air) produce a partial frame sync. Instead of reducing landing lag by the number of hit lag frames... it reduces it by like... 2-4 frames. Why? I have no idea.

Anyways, ZSS's buffered air dodge to back air is an instance where we have strange behavior... This meets all the surface requirements for a frame sync, but it fails to do so. Why? I have no idea.

Your suggestion could help, since the timing of the bair and fast fall can be adjusted a little to make it happen. However, this would then re-create conditions where double frame perfect inputs are required (bair and fast fall on particular frames). If we're lucky, we could buffer the bair on the uneven surface and reduce it to one frame perfect input: the fast fall.

Either way, it's rough going.

 

[Remzi]

I was actually wondering if any moves int his game had that perfect combination. Interesting to find out that there are 13 of them, care to post a list?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I was actually wondering if any moves int his game had that perfect combination. Interesting to find out that there are 13 of them, care to post a list?

Oh right, I never really brought that to the Mechanics and Techniques forum... whoops. I'm doing extended research on frame syncing with another research partner, since it's still very ill-understood... while simultaneously being treated like it's fully understood. Hopefully if the true mechanics of the technique are uncovered, we'll post about it.

Until then!

Of those 13 moves, only 3 of them produced partial frame syncs (I.E. SOME of the hit lag frames overlapped with the landing lag frames. Usually 2-4 frames are overlapped in a partial frame sync). Those moves are all air dodge to frame synced...

1. Toon Link - Up Air
2. Lucina - Down Air
3. Diddy Kong - Neutral Air

They all only save a handful of frames, but may be useful to those characters for linking moves together. Who knows?

 

[SilentGhost]

I tried this out a while back. I figured the lack of a frame sync was because back air raises zss' collision box slightly, causing her not to land for another 1-2 frames.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I tried this out a while back. I figured the lack of a frame sync was because back air raises zss' collision box slightly, causing her not to land for another 1-2 frames.

Yeah, the reigning hypothesis is that a character must land the frame after hitstun occurs. Hitboxes and hurboxes tend to freeze when an opponent is struck, so it makes things pretty complicated when finding frame syncs. There are some other ideas floating around, but I'd rather keep gathering evidence on it for now.