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AIdropMC - New missile tech. Faster than SHFFMC?

343

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if you're talking about how it changes the AI timing, what matters is that dj changes her ECB, not her hurtboxes
 

Litt

Samus
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if you're talking about how it changes the AI timing, what matters is that dj changes her ECB, not her hurtboxes
Visually what changes is the hurtboxes, what matters to perform the tech is the ECB, but that changes contingent on what frame of jump 1 you use the double jump, increasing the likelihood of the ECB being in a position not expected and miss the AI, full hop i would still recommend on dreamland just for the consistency aspect
 

ycz12

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This is neat! I'm really surprised that platform drop > fastfall > missile works on any stage; I've seen waveland > fastfall > missile before, but at the time it seemed too difficult for the meager time savings. I usually do stuff like

Short hop > horizontal waveland > missile on Stadium
Fullhop > AI > isai drop > missile on Battlefield

I might need to start working on some of this fancy stuff now, though.

Also still waiting on someone to pull off that double bomb > AI > shai drop > bomb shield pressure loop ;)
 

Litt

Samus
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This is neat! I'm really surprised that platform drop > fastfall > missile works on any stage; I've seen waveland > fastfall > missile before, but at the time it seemed too difficult for the meager time savings. I usually do stuff like

Short hop > horizontal waveland > missile on Stadium
Fullhop > AI > isai drop > missile on Battlefield

I might need to start working on some of this fancy stuff now, though.

Also still waiting on someone to pull off that double bomb > AI > shai drop > bomb shield pressure loop ;)
What double bomb > AI? that doesnt make much sense unless you are using the height of the bombs to get up to a plat height like battle, then up air? then shai? even then it would be more advantageous to descend with a fast fall up air back into bomb
 

343

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ah, I see; the ff prevents you from getting the last strong hit, right?
 

Litt

Samus
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Hella fun mixup, short up nair immed out of jump right over opponent, then fast fall up air on the way down into bomb
 

Army805

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Question, is it faster to standing shai drop after a NIL when SHPMC'ing opposed to just dropping through? If so, how many frames are saved, and where were they saved? I know its faster to shai drop opposed to isai dropping after an AI drop mc since you don't have to wait for the 4 frames of landing lag (I think this is the case, if i'm wrong someone please let me know) but I'm not sure if shai dropping after a NIL has any benefits over just regular dropping. Thanks guys.
 
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Litt

Samus
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Question, is it faster to standing shai drop after a NIL when SHPMC'ing opposed to just dropping through? If so, how many frames are saved, and where were they saved? I know its faster to shai drop opposed to isai dropping after an AI drop mc since you don't have to wait for the 4 frames of landing lag (I think this is the case, if i'm wrong someone please let me know) but I'm not sure if shai dropping after a NIL has any benefits over just regular dropping. Thanks guys.
If you cannot tell if there are any benefits, then there are no benefits for you to be using it quite yet. Samus is not fox, the more technical you get does not equal the better you become as a player.
 
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Army805

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If you cannot tell if there are any benefits, then there are no benefits for you to be using it quite yet. Samus is not fox, the more technical you get does not equal the better you become as a player.
Just found out from kadano that it's better to just regular drop. And I know that, I'm just trying to do things optimally.
 
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ycz12

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You can do a normal platform drop out of a NIL, that's one of the main benefits. A shield drop is no faster and in practice probably costs you a couple frames.

---

Related, here's a dumb thing I've been doing on Battlefield:

SH back
NIL
Edge-cancel the NIL, i.e. slip off backwards
Missile / fastfall to ledge / double jump waveland on top platform / whatever

The spacing is precise and it's not much better than DJ wavelanding or just dropping through the platform, but it does look and feel pretty cool when you get it. And it's probably easier than edge-cancelled AIs :p
 
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343

Smash Journeyman
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Question, is it faster to standing shai drop after a NIL when SHPMC'ing opposed to just dropping through? If so, how many frames are saved, and where were they saved? I know its faster to shai drop opposed to isai dropping after an AI drop mc since you don't have to wait for the 4 frames of landing lag (I think this is the case, if i'm wrong someone please let me know) but I'm not sure if shai dropping after a NIL has any benefits over just regular dropping. Thanks guys.
(1) On Shai dropping while shooting platform missiles: as ycz said, when you enter NIL, you don't enter the crouch land/impact land animation, so you can just drop immediately (which is why platform missiles work so fluidly). On the other hand, sometimes if I mess up the NIL height (by fulljumping or whatever), I just buffer a Shai drop so I can get off the platform easily.
(2) Shai dropping and Isai dropping both require you to wait for the 4 frames of "impact land" lag. http://smashboards.com/threads/shai-drop-update-detailed-guide-frame-data.322062/ says that the Shai drop is faster because shielddropping doesn't force you to wait 3 frames for the "crouch before falling through plat" animation.
 

Litt

Samus
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Oh I actually didn't know that. Good to know
Aerial interrupt Shai drop you drop lower from the platform and faster than a normal drop post a NIL, and your momentum carries from a running AI shai drop, whereas the ledge cancel NIL falling missile requires more delicate spacing

Also the full jump ai gets you to land on the platform faster than a shot hop backwards NIL
 
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343

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I agree with most of what you said, Litt, but I don't understand "lets you drop lower from the platform"?
 

Litt

Samus
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When you do a normal drop from the platform, the animation is that of a normal fall speed but when you sheild or shai drop, the sheilding drops you lower than a normal platform drop, just go in training mode and slow it down so you can see for yourself
 

tauKhan

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I'm pretty sure that's not true. For example all the platform cancel aerials work with shield drops as well as with regular drops, and they probably wouldn't work if she was lower on the 1st Pass frame when shield dropping. I think you're confused by the 3 Squat (crouch) frames at the beginning of regular drop during which Samus appears to be moving down because she ducks. Shield drop just makes you drop quicker and that's all.
 

Litt

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I'm pretty sure that's not true. For example all the platform cancel aerials work with shield drops as well as with regular drops, and they probably wouldn't work if she was lower on the 1st Pass frame when shield dropping. I think you're confused by the 3 Squat (crouch) frames at the beginning of regular drop during which Samus appears to be moving down because she ducks. Shield drop just makes you drop quicker and that's all.
Quicker = lower in less time
 

Litt

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ok cool, so you mean faster

thanks
I mean when you dont have to go through the crouch... you are lower on the inital drop... and it happens faster... aka lower and faster which is what I said
 
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tauKhan

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Quicker = lower in less time
I think we agree here. The wording in my post was bad, so I'll clarify just to make sure: With shield drop you start falling frame 1, when normal dropping you start falling frame 4, but in both cases the fall trajectory is identical, i.e positions are same on frame 1 and 4, 2 and 5 and so on.
 
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Litt

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I think we agree here. The wording in my post was bad, so I'll clarify just to make sure: With shield drop you start falling frame 1, when normal dropping you start falling frame 4, but in both cases the fall trajectory is identical, i.e positions are same on frame 1 and 4, 2 and 5 and so on.
Except you don't go through crouch on the shield or shai drop and yes we agree, but you said I was confused... which I am not. Also when you start with, "I'm pretty sure that's not true."... and it turns out to be true... you look like the one who is confused. Instead of saying I may have been confused, perhaps consider next time people just use different terminology and that we may in fact be on the same side of the argument (shocking ikr).

But if you are running and you shai drop the trajectory is not the same as a result of the continued momentum from the run which is not possible in a normal drop. So there are instances where the trajectory is not the same, and the case can be made that you fall lower and faster, depending on your interpretation of the word "lower".
 
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343

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Woo, it's time for "argue semantics with Litt"!

You fall earlier when you shield drop vs normal drop, and although the falling speed is identical, if you pause on the same frame, you end up lower from shield drop (because you started falling earlier). I think we all agree with this.

"falling lower" as a concept doesn't make much sense to me, but I get what you mean, and everyone is happy, woo
 
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Litt

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Woo, it's time for "argue semantics with Litt"!

You fall earlier when you shield drop vs normal drop, and although the falling speed is identical, if you pause on the same frame, you end up lower from shield drop (because you started falling earlier). I think we all agree with this.

"falling lower" as a concept doesn't make much sense to me, but I get what you mean, and everyone is happy, woo
Well fall lower soon, say you need those 4 frames to get down with a fade away fair to catch their would have been successful nair or fair attempt? A lot of the marth follow ups on spacies are just 1-2 frame reaction on grabs, so just saying 4 frames does matter in my opinion. This is why I attempt to ai shai drop until I friggen master it because it is where I believe samus is headed to compete in this game now and in the future.
 
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tauKhan

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But if you are running and you shai drop the trajectory is not the same as a result of the continued momentum from the run which is not possible in a normal drop.
Actually you can run -> run cancel drop to achieve the same speed (Or at least pretty damn close. I'm convinced that the limiting factor is max speed during the drop animation) as with run -> shai drop. Of course you need a little bit more room since the drop takes more time. The biggest advantage of shai dropping imo is being able to do a short dash -> drop, which really cannot be replicated at all without shield dropping.
 

Army805

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Does anyone know how many frames faster doing a AI Shai drop FF missile compared to just a waveland off FF missile?
 

Litt

Samus
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Actually you can run -> run cancel drop to achieve the same speed (Or at least pretty damn close. I'm convinced that the limiting factor is max speed during the drop animation) as with run -> shai drop. Of course you need a little bit more room since the drop takes more time. The biggest advantage of shai dropping imo is being able to do a short dash -> drop, which really cannot be replicated at all without shield dropping.
no the real advantage is to use the plat ledge to cancel the run turn around to get a super run momentum into a shai drop waveland to shoot across the stage ;D. Real talk tho, you go from identical fall momemtum to pretty damn close... in a game where every frame matters, pretty damn close isnt good enough and warrants considering these two techs in my book distinctly different.

Does anyone know how many frames faster doing a AI Shai drop FF missile compared to just a waveland off FF missile?
Depends how far you go onto the platform for the waveland off, if you are doing the waveland from a run or just standing under the plat, and the length/maxdistance of the waveland off the plat. So not a simple answer in terms of pure data
 
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tauKhan

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no the real advantage is to use the plat ledge to cancel the run turn around to get a super run momentum into a shai drop waveland to shoot across the stage ;D.
You can't do anything to increase your drop speed over the max aerial speed set for it which is pretty low. Even walk into drop goes just as fast as run shai drop. So what's that supposed to achieve?
 

Litt

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You can't do anything to increase your drop speed over the max aerial speed set for it which is pretty low. Even walk into drop goes just as fast as run shai drop. So what's that supposed to achieve?
It achieves a longer waveland across the stage, and a mix up for when you are dash dancing on a platform
 

tauKhan

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It achieves a longer waveland across the stage, and a mix up for when you are dash dancing on a platform
Waveland length on flat surface with enough room depends only on the angle, since airdodge sets velocity to 2.79000 in the chosen direction regardless of your previous velocity.
 
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Litt

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Waveland length on flat surface with enough room depends only on the angle, since airdodge sets velocity to 2.79000 in the chosen direction regardless of your previous velocity.
ill make a vid for you later, dont think i have much else to do today. Its the equivalent of adding a run immediately before a wavedash for extra lenght
 
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tauKhan

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ill make a vid for you later, dont think i have much else to do today. Its the equivalent of adding a run immediately before a wavedash for extra lenght
Wavedash is a bit different since you slide during jumpsquat which adds a bit of length; that's why wavesurfing is slightly faster avg speed than just wavedashing with many characters. However the part of the wavedash after airdodge is only dependant on angle and how quickly you hit the ground (which should be immediately of course).
 

Litt

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Wavedash is a bit different since you slide during jumpsquat which adds a bit of length; that's why wavesurfing is slightly faster avg speed than just wavedashing with many characters. However the part of the wavedash after airdodge is only dependant on angle and how quickly you hit the ground (which should be immediately of course).
Si and how quickly you hit the ground, which after the ledge cancel sling shot into AI shai drop fast fall waveland, you cover a ridiculous amount of distance
 
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