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AGON2 (Europe/Germany)

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Berlin
SINGLES:


1: Leon
(171,00 €)
2: Mr-R
(95,00 €)
3: quiKsilver
(57,00 €)
4: Dany
(38,00 €)
5: Akuma
(9,50 €)
5: cyve
(9,50 €)
7: Sodrek

7: iStudying

9: Eddy

9: Kunai KazeKun

9: Tsunayoshi

9: Bjay

13: Tay

13: Dueler X

13: reaper

13: Purple~H

17: Serudos

17: BluB

17: Le Syd

17: PikaForLife

17: (S!C)

17: Garok

17: Bycel

17: Desti

25: Chair

25: RiVer

25: Blubo

25: Bloody

25: Stiv64

25: Gale

25: ShadowTl

25: Nin'



B-Bracket:



1: Clade (10,00 €)
2: Gardex
3: Tysk
3: Ipi
5: YoRen
5: Repus
5: Wuchtbrumme
5: LoNgO
9: Scard
9: Frequencer
9: Gheb
9: Cranky
9: Gike
9: Weegee
9: otek
9: Schligger
17: Kanji
17: Arasz
17: DôNá
17: Flint
17: Topat
17: Xzisor
17: Dunch_Smarko

POOLS:










DOUBLES:


1: Bjay + Leon (135,00 €)
2: cyve + quiK (67,50 €)
3: Tay + reaper (40,50 €)
4: iStudying + Mr. R (27,00 €)
5: Dany + Blubo
5: Garok + (S!C)
7: Purple~H + Sodrek
7: Gardex + Dueler X
9: BluB + Clade
9: ShadowTL + Pikaforlife
9: Yoh + Kunai
9: Eddy + Akuma
13: Gike + Tysk
13: Four Sword + RiVer
13: Desti + otek
13: Tsunayoshi + Serudos
17: Le Syd + Bloody
17: Frequenzer + LoNg0
17: Cranky + Gale
17: Topat + Flint
17: Dunch + Schligger
17: Soreru + Aurablast
17: Xzisor + ProX
17: Nin' + Yoren
25: Repus + Bycel
25: Waver + Scard
25: caranthire + stiv64

CREWS:


1: Ramin + Eddy + Purple~H
2: Garok + Akuma + Sodrek
3: Le Syd + Bjay + YoRen
3: iStudying + Soroe + Pikaforlife
5: Blubo + Flint + Yoh
5: Semifer + Jubeis Katze + Kunai
5: Ufuk + quiKsilver + Siggi
5: Tysk + reaper + Dunch
9: Schligger + Topas + Eric
9: Sui-Aqua + Stiv64 + Gardex
9: Bycel + Repus + Dôná
9: Weegee + LoNgO+ Gike
9: Blub + Clade+ caranthire
9: RiVer + Four Sword + ShadowTL
9: Dany + Otek + Dest


MONTAGE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rB6N_UUu5g

GRAND FINALS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqY1qGA19Qk



Shoutouts:

(S!C)
[TF!]Kunai KazeKun
Akuma
Arasz
Aurablast
Bjay
Bloody
BluB
Blubo
Bycel
Caranthire
Chair
Clade
Cranky
cyve
Dany
Desti
DôNà
Dueler X
Eddy
Flint
Four Sword
Frequencer
Gale
Gardex
Gheb
Gike
IPI
iStudying
Jubei's Katze
Kanji
Lance
Le Syd
Leon
LoNgO
Mr-R
Nin'
otek
PikaforLife
Prox
Purple~H
quiKsilver
ProX Sis aka Wimpa
reaper
Repus
RiVer
Scard
Schligger
Serudos
ShadowTL
Smarko/Dunch
Sodrek
Soreru
stiv64
Sui-Aqua
TaY
TheGarok
Topat
Tsunayoshi
Tysk
Waver
Weegee
Wuchtbrumme
wusi
Xzisor
Yikarur
Yoh
Yoren
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,917
Location
Europe
Cyve lost to Leon in WS and only went Diddy? He beat Leon with Pit not too long ago.
Fun fact: cyve only lost the set because he had agreed with Leon to play it as a bo5 in advance. Had he insisted to play it as bo3 like our rules recommend he would've won as he was actually was 2-0 ahead but then lost the following three games [at least that's what he told me].

:059:
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
3,791
Location
Chester, IL
Hey, this is sort of a dumb question, but how did you manage to get the small Brawl character heads? It's not showing up in the smiley face options and the new reply system doesn't show the forum codes anymore =/.
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
Fun fact: cyve only lost the set because he had agreed with Leon to play it as a bo5 in advance. Had he insisted to play it as bo3 like our rules recommend he would've won as he was actually was 2-0 ahead but then lost the following three games [at least that's what he told me].

:059:
Is that even allowed?

:018:
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Sucks to see that Serudos had to get eliminated by 2 other ZSS players.
Oh well.

Gj Leon Quik Serudos P4L. Also nice to see a Fox in top 8!
 

Leon94

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
304
Location
france
Is that even allowed?

:018:
yeah
like 30 minutes befores the set I asked the hosters for making the set in BO5, Because I used to play them in BO5 in france, they told me ok if my opponent agree as well, and cyve told me yes after winning the first game. That was very fair play from him
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
Marth, ZSS and MK are the three best characters in this game. We've learned this at Apex.

Edit:

Fun fact: cyve only lost the set because he had agreed with Leon to play it as a bo5 in advance. Had he insisted to play it as bo3 like our rules recommend he would've won as he was actually was 2-0 ahead but then lost the following three games [at least that's what he told me].

:059:
Just because it was changed doesn't mean the outcome of every match would've been the same. Maybe Leon would've caught up earlier if it was only a bo3 :p You never know, but you can't just say cyve would've won if it was a bo3.

That's like saying every bo5 ever that was 3:2 won where the player that was behind 1:2 first only won because it was a bo5 and he would've lost if it was a bo3. If it was that deciding it'd almost be like manipulation if people are playing bo5s lol.

Not to mention the more matches you play the more accurate the outcome is anyway.

And cyve also beat Leon with Diddy before, maybe he was more confident in his Diddy lately? Dunno.
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Berlin
Thats one reason I am for "all sets are Bo3", to have the same basis for every set.

Bo5 is like having football matches with 120 Minutes instead of 90, just because its the (semi-)final. (Not exactly the same kind of change, but it comes close enough to show how weird this is).

I know the advantages of Bo5, but IMO All Bo3 still outweights them, and should be standard.

Whatever
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Berlin
If that doesn't make sense to you then I won't bother talking about it to you since you don't seem to understand basic logic.
I know what you mean anyway. "Bo5 is more accurate than Bo3". But it's just wrong.
Any ruleset will lead into different outcomes, no matter if you change stocks, timer, set-count, or whatever.

But having the same rules applied for every match, is better, as there is a standard, every set will follow the same rules. Actually, we could say that Bo5 Sets from Semi-Finals on are more random than all Sets Bo3, as we are changing the rules for sets during the tournament. Kinda like you play Melee for Grand Finals instead of Brawl (This is an extreme exaggeration of course).

Just look at the debate right now, people discuss about Leon vs cyve, just because they changed from Bo3 to Bo5. Would cyve had won that set if it was Bo3? Or could it have been Leons win nevertheless, even though cyve was already 2:0 in lead?
That whole discussion wouldnt exist, if every set was Bo3 to begin with. If everything was Bo3, there would be nobody who discusses the outcome of the set in a "what if"-way.

Maybe you understand me know, why I would prefer Bo3 for all sets.

(And before you answer, just so you know: I know the advantages of Bo5 sets, I dont have problems with Bo5 sets, I just dont like the change of rules during the bracket)
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
But for good players it will matter. They play bo3 in pools and the lower bracket, but it doesn't matter that much, since there should be a bigger skill gap between the players. Against more skilled opponents it can be much closer, so we give them a way to be more consistent.

In "randomize" I mean that the winner will more often be different than if it was a bo5. The better player would still win more sets than the other one, but he would lose more often than in a bo5. Which is a big deal for the top players, because of money and specific placing.

If you say this: "I know what you mean anyway. "Bo5 is more accurate than Bo3". But it's just wrong."
How can you say you see the advantage?

I kinda know what you mean (at least I think so), but I don't see how this is the case.

The more matches are played, you will see the more skilled player win more often, even if the other player will win sometimes too.
If you want to say "bo3 shows a more accurate result than bo5, since every set will be bo3", then how can that be true? It isn't even true in the way of saying "it shows the more consistent bo3 winner", because the winner will switch around more often than with bo5s, lol.
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Berlin
But after your logic, we should play Bo7/9/Whatever/Infinite, because its more accurate.

With Bo5 we test a different kind of skill compared to Bo3. While the change from Bo3 to Bo5 may not be that big, it still has an effect. Bo5 favours the player who can adapt better over time. While Bo3 puts more emphasis on quick adaption. While we could argue that one may be better than the other, thats not what I wanted to discuss about and why I prefer Bo3 for all Sets. Its that we change the tests of skill during the tournament. As I said, its the same as if we would change timer/stocks/game/whatever. But there is a reason why we prefer Bo3 over Bo5 - Because of time.
I wouldnt have a problem with all sets being Bo5, but it takes quiet long, and does not only delay the tournament, but also is quiet boring most of the time. Bo3 though, it's quicker (Better for running a tournament), while still being enough accurate (Bo3 Sets already are about 10-15 Minutes long most of the time). It also can bring more hype, as upsets are more likely to happen. Even though actually, in a competitive environment, calling them upsets, just because they won in Bo3 and probaby wouldnt in Bo5, is kinda wrong. The better player still wins. The better player is the one, who won under the specific ruleset, not the one, who wouldve won in another one.

And also, why shouldnt we do Bo7 for grand finals (For example), when its about big money there (More than in every other set) and it should be as much consistent as possible

And what I'm trying to say with "All sets Bo3 is more accurate" is, that there isnt a sudden ruleset change. It's weird that we start doing Bo5 from WSF/LQF. Why not WQF already? Was Salem vs Otori less important than Salem vs Mikeneko? And why do we apply this sudden change only to change Bo3->Bo5? Why dont we also go to Bo7 in WF/LF/GF or something like that, when you could take the same "idea" and apply it to them as well.

Conclusion: Switching from Bo3 to Bo5 during a bracket when reaching WSF/LQF is completely arbitrary and there arent any logical reasons of when we should stop using Bo3 and start using Bo5.
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
But after your logic, we should play Bo7/9/Whatever/Infinite, because its more accurate.
Of course we sould, but that's impossible. I really enjoyed bo7 when it was still used.

With Bo5 we test a different kind of skill compared to Bo3. While the change from Bo3 to Bo5 may not be that big, it still has an effect. Bo5 favours the player who can adapt better over time. While Bo3 puts more emphasis on quick adaption. While we could argue that one may be better than the other, thats not what I wanted to discuss about and why I prefer Bo3 for all Sets. Its that we change the tests of skill during the tournament. As I said, its the same as if we would change timer/stocks/game/whatever. But there is a reason why we prefer Bo3 over Bo5 - Because of time.
Yes, everything is because of time. You are right about the adapt thing.

I wouldnt have a problem with all sets being Bo5, but it takes quiet long, and does not only delay the tournament, but also is quiet boring most of the time. Bo3 though, it's quicker (Better for running a tournament), while still being enough accurate (Bo3 Sets already are about 10-15 Minutes long most of the time). It also can bring more hype, as upsets are more likely to happen. Even though actually, in a competitive environment, calling them upsets, just because they won in Bo3 and probaby wouldnt in Bo5, is kinda wrong. The better player still wins. The better player is the one, who won under the specific ruleset, not the one, who wouldve won in another one.
Let me ask you something. Who do you think is better: The one who wins the first set he ever played against someone, or the one who wins all sets in the future he has with that player? Of course you can say "well at first this one, but after that the other one...", but that probably isn't true.

And also, why shouldnt we do Bo7 for grand finals (For example), when its about big money there (More than in every other set) and it should be as much consistent as possible
Because of time constraints, I wouldn't have anything against it otherwise.

And what I'm trying to say with "All sets Bo3 is more accurate" is, that there isnt a sudden ruleset change. It's weird that we start doing Bo5 from WSF/LQF. Why not WQF already? Was Salem vs Otori less important than Salem vs Mikeneko? And why do we apply this sudden change only to change Bo3->Bo5? Why dont we also go to Bo7 in WF/LF/GF or something like that, when you could take the same "idea" and apply it to them as well.
Yes that is true, I also thought about that. We also have some "bigger" confrontations already in earlier rounds sometimes. Guess you can only hope you meet them in later rounds? I always hate having to play one of the tops in bo3s...

Conclusion:
Switching from Bo3 to Bo5 during a bracket when reaching WSF/LQF is completely arbitrary and there arent any logical reasons of when we should stop using Bo3 and start using Bo5.
Well, the germans started using it. At first I was wondering why they just suddenly do that when it was done nowhere else, but I started to like it after a while.
 

PokemonMasterJamal3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 9, 2010
Messages
102
Location
Lanham, MD
And what I'm trying to say with "All sets Bo3 is more accurate" is, that there isnt a sudden ruleset change. It's weird that we start doing Bo5 from WSF/LQF. Why not WQF already? Was Salem vs Otori less important than Salem vs Mikeneko? And why do we apply this sudden change only to change Bo3->Bo5? Why dont we also go to Bo7 in WF/LF/GF or something like that, when you could take the same "idea" and apply it to them as well.
Apex 2013 used Bo5 for Semis/Finals only. Neither WQFs nor LQFs were Bo5, and Salem vs. Otori wasn't WQFs anyway (you're thinking about Salem vs. Dojo, which was right after that).
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,185
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Conclusion: Switching from Bo3 to Bo5 during a bracket when reaching WSF/LQF is completely arbitrary and there arent any logical reasons of when we should stop using Bo3 and start using Bo5.
this is statistically false

with seeding, a DE tournament is accurate to the top 5-8 placements. it's not arbitrary to give them BO5s at that point because those are the sets that really "count" so to speak

leon, gheb was just trolling lol
 

Leon94

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
304
Location
france
ok gheb, but I wasn't angry, just explaining what I tought, about the BO5, In france I'malways making BO5 since SWF you can ask me why, it's definitely because IMO SWF is as important as WF. We already know that both players will get top 5 and they need to be at their best level for that set which is most of the time hype. But Making it for BO7 I definitely disagree for 2 reasons.

1.Because the set would be toooooooooo long and annoying and many people would get tired to play like 7 matches.
2.We shouldn't forget the stage list,if the DSR rules is applicated, besides MK, most of character can't counterpick the opponent because after choosing the 2/3 best stages for them they would counterpick them sel and getting ****ed by the stage list.

that's why I definitely disagree the BO7, even if there is no DSR rules just because it's too long that's enough for me to reject that rules
 

Keitaro

Banned via Administration
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
11,941
Location
Piscataway, NJ
Interesting read. Saw most of the top 5 sets and some of Akuma's. Very entertaining from EU as expected. Leon's a beast!!
 
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