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Advice on Marth matchup pls?

Padre!

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
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7
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Gloucester, MA
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Hey guys, I've been having some troubles vs a few Marths in my scene. Just need a few tips and some general stuff for dealing with him. Thanks.
 

JoJoe

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
16
Location
Los Angeles California
Marth in neutral should be using dash dance, grab, and down tilt. In neutral you should be dash dancing, but make sure to be just outside of his down tilt range. Baiting out a down tilt is really good since it leaves him wide open for a stomp, and stomp can lead to a big combo, edge-guard situation, a kill, etc. If you catch on to his dash dance pattern side b is really good and will probably throw him off(generally you're gonna want to to use this after a dash forward and aiming for hitting Marth at the end of his dash dance). Make sure you use this conservatively since Marth can mix up his dash dance pattern, like instead of starting another dd he might just wave dash back expecting a punish, and he can just f smash. So yeah, I hoped this helped you out a bit.
 

TFB

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
5
Location
Miami, FL
What if Marth approaches with f-air or neutral air? Also when Marth throws you offstage, you're supposed to sweetspot right? But what if the Marth reads your sweetspot and grabs the ledge before you do and gimps you?
 
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JoJoe

Smash Rookie
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Mar 31, 2015
Messages
16
Location
Los Angeles California
What if Marth approaches with f-air or neutral air? Also when Marth throws you offstage, you're supposed to sweetspot right? But what if the Marth reads your sweetspot and grabs the ledge before you do and gimps you?
If Marth is coming at you with F-air and N-air, that isn't too bad. As long as you shield, it shouldn't be too hard to punish, unless the Marth is really precise and only hitting you with the tip, but even the Marth N-air approach is pretty bad, and even if spaced well, it's easy to punish. A N-air or up air out of shield should be fairy easy to connect, unless f-air is spaced properly, but even then Falcon immediate up air is so good it might still connect in time. A wavedash out of shield grab is also great and pretty free if he doesn't space well.
I'm not sure what your question about offstage is? Of course if he sees you going for ledge and grabs ledge that you'll die, you can't really do anything after committing to sweetspot from under the stage. Unless you're coming from horizontal and vertically away, in which case you can mix him up with fading back and worth with the little bit of drift you get.
 
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M-Tude

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Messages
66
You can punish earth aerial on shields pretty easy. Like JoJoe said, you can almost always punish them with Uair or Nair OoS. If Marth tries to rising double fair your shield you can drift forward and do either aerial in between the fairs. If he does an immediate Nair you can aerial after it finishes and before he lands. It's a bit safer if Marth delays the aerials to right before he lands, but you're still at frame advantage on shield against those.

About the off-stage gimp: it's all about adaption. If you go for the sweet spot DJ every time, then eventually he's going to grab ledge. In that case you need to DJ early to get back on stage, or do the S2J and immediately DJ back and Up-B high, trying to drift as far center stage as you can. If you feel like you've really got a read on if he's going to grab ledge, do an early DJ Uair or Knee to catch him trying to WD or SH to ledge. You should be safe then, but going for the aerial is a bit risky, cause if he baits it out and you whiff it then you're REALLY dead since he can just F-smash you and you no longer have a double jump.
 

TFB

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
5
Location
Miami, FL
You can punish earth aerial on shields pretty easy. Like JoJoe said, you can almost always punish them with Uair or Nair OoS. If Marth tries to rising double fair your shield you can drift forward and do either aerial in between the fairs. If he does an immediate Nair you can aerial after it finishes and before he lands. It's a bit safer if Marth delays the aerials to right before he lands, but you're still at frame advantage on shield against those.

About the off-stage gimp: it's all about adaption. If you go for the sweet spot DJ every time, then eventually he's going to grab ledge. In that case you need to DJ early to get back on stage, or do the S2J and immediately DJ back and Up-B high, trying to drift as far center stage as you can. If you feel like you've really got a read on if he's going to grab ledge, do an early DJ Uair or Knee to catch him trying to WD or SH to ledge. You should be safe then, but going for the aerial is a bit risky, cause if he baits it out and you whiff it then you're REALLY dead since he can just F-smash you and you no longer have a double jump.
Thanks a lot bro!
 

1000g2g3g4g800999

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Messages
368
Location
Earth
As an alternative to trying to dash dance out of dtilt's range, it can be beneficial to move in to face Marth and shield when he's coming in to shield grab the dtilt. If Marth grabs, doesn't attack, or does an AC nair through your shield, it could be problematic, but you should remember, Marth's likely dtilting trying to hit you at the back of your dash. Otherwise, he's probably just thinking the move is generally "safe," but Marth doesn't really have safe options once you get in his face. Generally, any option Marth would do because he wants to hit you on retreat loses to moving forward and shielding. The other options, you can WD OoS towards center stage and reset neutral without too much hassle.

Any aerial approach by Marth, if you can't just stay out of its range with movement, can be beaten right as it gets into range with an immediate uair (and nair can be great for similar purposes). If on shield, if an aerial is a little high on shield or slightly too far for a shield grab, using nair or uair OoS is still good. You should otherwise mostly try to reposition with WD OoS.

Jumping from far distances might catch some Marths off guard, but it's generally bad because Marth's sword is great for anti-air.

Getting grabs is good, getting grabbed isn't. Bair can be good for stuffing approaches, but isn't very good vs DD or shield.
 

Rachman

be water my friend
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
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229
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FL
Reading down tilts with stomp is really good. The marth quickly becomes scared to dtilt after a stomp read at 0 becomes a 0-death once or twice and once that's true your dash dance becomes much less contested
 

ShakesW

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May 18, 2016
Messages
1
Is the 0-30% chain grab guaranteed on marth? I believe back DI needs a nair, but can forwards away DI still be regrabbed?
 

Spak

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Is the 0-30% chain grab guaranteed on marth? I believe back DI needs a nair, but can forwards away DI still be regrabbed?
They have to DI in for the chaingrab to work. It's really easy to get out of if the other person knows what DI even is, and realistically you shouldn't get the regrab on a decently skilled player more than once in a row (maybe twice if you're doing a lot of U-Throw mixups.)
 

Rachman

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I believe that is incorrect, you can regrab even 315 degree (down and away) tdi according to my testing (i believe that was at 0%, it was in my thread and haven't looked at my data in a long time). It's just very tight timing so one thing I've been doing is just nairing and tech chasing DI away since dthrow does force a knockdown. That's much easier imo
 
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Spak

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I believe that is incorrect, you can regrab even 315 degree (down and away) tdi according to my testing (i believe that was at 0%, it was in my thread and haven't looked at my data in a long time). It's just very tight timing so one thing I've been doing is just nairing and tech chasing DI away since dthrow does force a knockdown. That's much easier imo
Right, but it's not guaranteed much past 0%. He was asking if regrab is guaranteed 0-30%, to which the answer is no.
 

xXadevs2000Xx

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
122
They want to DI in to avoid the regrabs.
Which you respond to with SH nair, FH nair, uair, bair, etc.

Also, not at 0 but at around 10%, Marth has no options whatsoever to get out of dthrow knee on DI in LOL
If they jump, they get hit.
They can't aerial in time.
They can airdodge but you can just punish that afterwards. Ez.
 

3HUNA

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Jun 18, 2015
Messages
17
Location
Illinois
They want to DI in to avoid the regrabs.
Which you respond to with SH nair, FH nair, uair, bair, etc.

Also, not at 0 but at around 10%, Marth has no options whatsoever to get out of dthrow knee on DI in LOL
If they jump, they get hit.
They can't aerial in time.
They can airdodge but you can just punish that afterwards. Ez.
As great as a guaranteed knee sounds I think at that percent you're much better served reacting to their DI with either a regrab or a SH nair. It will be extremely hard to get any sort of followup off of the knee whereas your could easily keep a nair combo going.
 

Nicco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
328
You can chaingrab any DI except in 0-30. The timing is really tight if they do the longest DI, but it can be done, you just gotta be frame perfect like action replay baby.

I didn't know you can knee if they DI in after 10%, but that's sick! Don't know why ppl think nair is better. Knee has a similar trajectory like nair, it just has way better knockback and hitstun, so always take knees early on in combos if you can. Usually leads to more knees.
 

Jebus244

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Dec 6, 2014
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NOHANDLEB4RZ
This is my favorite match up.

Marth's range generally beats most of your approaches, so you gotta bait and whiff punish. Stomp Marth's dtilt and dash-dance grab or OOS instant Up air/Nair his aerials. Don't approach with Nair. If you want to approach, do it with stomp, if stomp gets shielded, jab, or grab, or jab then grab. Be ready if he buffers a roll after stomp and you can get a raptor boost punish. When marth is off stage, if he's above the ledge, you can jump out with a Uair, be careful of the counter. If he's below the ledge, grab ledge and force an up B onto the stage and get you a free reverse knee.

If you get a grab, down throw at low percents. You can chain grab up to about 30 on no DI, and DI in. DI away and you gotta tech Chase. Up throw around 35 gives you a free Uair for a very long time, and depending on DI, a Bair. Also, Up throw on platforms for tech chases can get you some great punishes. Above 100, down throw to knee should be easy.
You can chaingrab any DI except in 0-30. The timing is really tight if they do the longest DI, but it can be done, you just gotta be frame perfect like action replay baby.


I didn't know you can knee if they DI in after 10%, but that's sick! Don't know why ppl think nair is better. Knee has a similar trajectory like nair, it just has way better knockback and hitstun, so always take knees early on in combos if you can. Usually leads to more knees.
You can chain grab DI in. DI away and it turns into a tech chase.
 
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xXadevs2000Xx

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Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
122
You can chain grab DI in. DI away and it turns into a tech chase.
No, you cannot regrab DI in, you need to either SH uair/nair/knee.
DI away is NOT a techchase.
They can jump out.
However, you can regrab no DI and DI away.

If you don't know the punish game then don't try to give baseless advice on it.
PS: frame perfect SH knee on DI in works from 12%
 

Jebus244

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Dec 6, 2014
Messages
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Jacksonville, Florida
NNID
NOHANDLEB4RZ
No, you cannot regrab DI in, you need to either SH uair/nair/knee.
DI away is NOT a techchase.
They can jump out.
However, you can regrab no DI and DI away.

If you don't know the punish game then don't try to give baseless advice on it.
PS: frame perfect SH knee on DI in works from 12%
Ok there sporto, no need to be rude. I don't like bad info either, and you're right, if you can't regrab DI in then that's good to know. I just haven't tested it, I'm just going off what I see. I regrab what looks like DI in, but it's probably no DI. Either way, a player's reaction should be good enough that even if I gave bad info, the fact that you can regrab at low percents is what's important. If a player is trying to regrab DI in and it doesn't work, a player probably could have seen and reacted with the better option regardless. After all, its not you who is DIing for the marth, its just you who must react.
 
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xXadevs2000Xx

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
122
Ok there sporto, no need to be rude. I don't like bad info either, and you're right, if you can't regrab DI in then that's good to know. I just haven't tested it, I'm just going off what I see. I regrab what looks like DI in, but it's probably no DI. Either way, a player's reaction should be good enough that even if I gave bad info, the fact that you can regrab at low percents is what's important. If a player is trying to regrab DI in and it doesn't work, a player probably could have seen and reacted with the better option regardless. After all, its not you who is DIing for the marth, its just you who must react.
Fair enough, I apologize for my rudeness.
 

Sugahighsnipa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
56
Location
Chicago, IL
Someone was saying earlier that aerials on shield are really easy to punish but if marth does really late fair on shield into utilt I think it beats nair oos? Then again i suck at buffer jump -> aerial oos so yeah.

Vs marth get good at WD oos to grab vs their stupid fsmashes on your shield.

When they're recovering from deep and you know they're going to side-b for the love of god hit them after it. Side-b is really punishable if you're holding edge you can drop from ledge and do a DJ bair/uair to tap them and they usually just die. If you're on stage you can just hit them with a well-place SH weak knee

When I get a grab at like 31%+ i basically always go for uair unless I make some weird split second decision to nair. Uair usually leads to another uair or a regrab depending on if they DI in/no DI or out (for the regrab).

I really sucked vs marth for a long time so I tried to get a lot better at the punish game and edge guarding so even when my neutral isn't on point I usually make pretty big conversions. Falcon's combos are pretty flowcharty vs marth so its not that hard
 
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