advanced techniches: To return? or fixed bug?

[MookieRah]

I guess the way I see the whole "advanced techniques" debate is simple: if those who are really good at Smash look hard enough, there's going to be new techniques for them to use. There's always going to be that line between casual and pro players. All we'll need to wait for is how the mechanics of the game change and how it will effect gameplay, what with the final smashes now in.

I *hope* there are things in Brawl to make up for the stuff that was lost; however, I can hope all I want but it doesn't make it happen. To say if we look hard enough we will find it is also BS, cause sometimes it just isn't there. Honestly, we lucked out with melee. All the unintentional stuff made it tournament viable and deep. Now, some of the new features sound pretty awesome (I'm digging the new air dodge) but I worry a bit too.

 

[blooagga]

This game will have tons of new techniques. I'm guessing: New physics, new adv. techs.

 

[Aryman]

I do believe the thread starter's question was answered... why is this still open? There are already threads to talk about the adv. techs.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

The point is advanced techniques are what make the game difficult to master and it looks like Sakurai is removing some advanced techniques, which sucks.

You do realize that other techniques have been found already right?

Or do you just like complaining..

 

[flyinfilipino]

Edit: Genesai, you are horrible at the game compared to tourney players no johns.

LOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL its like they just copy and paste the same post over and over since this game came out!!!!!! lollllllllllll

I warned the guy....

No, the point is that the advanced techniques added depth, and removing depth is what sucks.

Yes!

 

[S2]

The thing is, every fighter has advanced techniques. These techniques are not bugs or glitches. Glitches are basically banned in all fighters (minus 1 or 2 random little exceptions here or there: like in MvC2 - Juggernaut's power-up glitch was still allowed). Advanced techs are abusing the engine as it was programmed to function. Wavedashing for instance is the correct consequence for a character within Melee's engine. They are programmed to slide and have different traction, even if WDing wasn't the originally intended strategy of that physics decision. WDing doesn't work in Brawl because they changed the way that Air-dodging works.

Brawl is going to have its own set of advanced strats based on its own engine. Even if we lose things that could be done in Melee, there are going to be so many people playing Brawl that new advanced techs, mindgames, and abuses will be found that weren't possible before.

People need to remember that advanced techs are a tool for mindgames. Stuff like WDing does not make a player good. Being able to apply WDing into mindgames is what makes it a useful move.


Actually, practically every game has things that could be "advanced techs". Even single player games. Search for more popular titles with lots of speed runners - games like Devil may Cry and Super Metroid have a ton of stuff like this.

 

[ron561]

Without advanced techniques it's a lot harder to be significantly better than someone else. If my Peach couldn't Float Cancel, DD, Wavedash, Chain Throw, Tech, or V-Drop my peach would really suck.

Advanced techniques are essential to be very good. How many good Fox players do you know that waveshine, DSHL, tech, wavedash, shffl or foxtrot. I doubt your going to find a Fox that doesn't do any of those things that can beat a fox that does all of those things.

Find a good player who uses Ice Climbers who doesn't wavedash, I dare you to. Same with Luigi.

I don't use any of those techniques in tournaments and i've beaten a fox and wave dashing luigi.They were good players and the wavedashing luigi kinda kept me off balance,but i adapted to his style and won.

I started looking at these advanced techniques in 2006 and i began practicing wavedashing.I could do it,but not very good.

*edit* and im a fox player and i also use peach

 

[Airgemini]

It would be interesting if they somehow returned....

 

[MookieRah]

I don't use any of those techniques in tournaments and i've beaten a fox and wave dashing luigi.They were good players and the wavedashing luigi kinda kept me off balance,but i adapted to his style and won.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but just because they were wave dashing it doesn't mean they were good, and just because you were at a tournament doesn't mean that there were any good people there. I've been in the scene for a long long time and I can tell you that being able to do the AT's doesn't mean **** if you can't apply them.

 

[Cless]

Well, that's true for virtually any fighting game.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I don't use any of those techniques in tournaments and i've beaten a fox and wave dashing luigi.They were good players and the wavedashing luigi kinda kept me off balance,but i adapted to his style and won.

I started looking at these advanced techniques in 2006 and i began practicing wavedashing.I could do it,but not very good.

*edit* and im a fox player and i also use peach

Your not a good Fox if you don't know how to wavedash, or waveshine, or shffl, period. I hate to sound like a d!ck but don't be mistaken, don't think that because you beat a guy who wavedashed meant you were great or anything. Go to a tournement, or play me (I'm not even that good) but if you don't know how to DSHL or waveshine, or L-Cancel (yet alone apply them into your game) my Ice Climbers will just own your fox. Tell me, because I'm very curious, how you play your Fox. Is it defensive, offesnive, what moves do you use frequently. Because I'm guessing if you don't use any ATs, you do a lot of ground laser spamming, and forward and up smashes.

And lol at playing Peach without Float Canceling.

 

[Phat Yoshi]

No, the point is that the advanced techniques added depth, and removing depth is what sucks.

I agree that removing any aspect that adds depth to the game is a disappointment.

But personally I'm not all that worried, or at least I'm trying to stay optimistic.

Apparently many people still enjoy playing SSB64, a game with arguably less depth to it in comparison to Melee. Although that isn't exactly a strong point to consider, it offers the possibility of a less complex but enjoyable smash to come.

 

[Cless]

I dunno, I don't think that SHLing with Fox is as important as it is with Falco.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I dunno, I don't think that SHLing with Fox is as important as it is with Falco.

It's still very important. And if you don't wavedash... and you play as Fox HAHAHAHA!

 

[Cless]

Really? I mean, I guess the extra damage is always good, and I never said anything about wavedashing. Nothing at all about wavedashing.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I know, I just want to let ron561 know that you can't be good with Fox without Wavedashing (and SHFFLing, and Waveshining)

 

[MookieRah]

Really? I mean, I guess the extra damage is always good, and I never said anything about wavedashing. Nothing at all about wavedashing.

Most people write off the damage, but I get to play a pretty technical fox player often and you'd be surprised how much damage per stock I usually run up from lasers alone. Usually anywhere from 20-30% per stock from just using the laser at range. That's not even with him trying to be campy, so you can see how it really does add up.

 

[Cless]

Ok, I never said I was experienced and knew stuff about things. That's a good thing to know.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Cless, do you play with ATs, just curious? Who are your mains?

 

[Cless]

Yeah, I do. I main Shiek, and I am terrible at this game.

 

[The Hypnotist]

So you most likely needle cancel and stuff. I mean are you really terrible, or are you being modest.

 

[Cless]

I mean, I'm not going to lose to your average casual smasher, but I'm nowhere near tournament level.

 

[battousai555]

I tink Sak00reye should liek taek out all of teh tech skillets so itz only teh mind *****!

 

[Hydde]

A fox skilled with his lasers and with hit and run strategies combined... take your concentration to the limits :S

 

[ron561]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but just because they were wave dashing it doesn't mean they were good, and just because you were at a tournament doesn't mean that there were any good people there. I've been in the scene for a long long time and I can tell you that being able to do the AT's doesn't mean **** if you can't apply them.

Like I don't know that?He was a pretty good fox and the luigi was messing me up pretty bad.Kept me off balance pretty good.It's not like these were newbs I were playing who were just wavedashing to look like they know how to play.

Your not a good Fox if you don't know how to wavedash, or waveshine, or shffl, period. I hate to sound like a d!ck but don't be mistaken, don't think that because you beat a guy who wavedashed meant you were great or anything. Go to a tournement, or play me (I'm not even that good) but if you don't know how to DSHL or waveshine, or L-Cancel (yet alone apply them into your game) my Ice Climbers will just own your fox. Tell me, because I'm very curious, how you play your Fox. Is it defensive, offesnive, what moves do you use frequently. Because I'm guessing if you don't use any ATs, you do a lot of ground laser spamming, and forward and up smashes.

And lol at playing Peach without Float Canceling.

I didn't say I was great.You said you doubt that if you play with fox and you don't use those advance techniques against a good fox that does,you won't win.Just because you use advanced techniques and I don't doesn't mean your going to win.I can't really describe my fox but im not defensive.Against that luigi and fox,I was defensive at first as I had to adjust to there style of playing using those ATs.I can show you how I play my fox better than I can tell you.

*edit*I'm also interested in seeing how you will play fox considering there is no wave dashing in brawl.I mean using your logic,you can't be a good fox without using wavedashing and other ATs.I'm sure you will adjust to the changes though.

 

[slikvik]

I mean, I'm not going to lose to your average casual smasher, but I'm nowhere near tournament level.

you were at the tournament in philly this saturday. did i play you?

 

[skellitorman]

I thought that the only tech that was removed was wavedashing. Yes I am sad about wavedashing, but happy at the other improvements (Directional tilts wit c stick, infinite air dodges, crawling, gliding, tripping, hugging, footstool jump). Also I believe that L cancel is still there but now has different applications I believe (If you fast fall it auto L cancels). This is actually not noob friendly in my opinion. You have to fast fall before your aerial to actually L cancel. Therefore It is going to be like impossible to SHFFl with most characters I assume. However now it adds some strategy to it. Should I fast fall L cancel to do this... or should I float and be able to get more attacks in or air control.

 

[GreenKirby]

One: With stuff like Footstool Jumping, crawling, and not being paralyzed after air dodging, the game will now have more so called depth

Two: Only wavedashing seems to be gone. L-caneling is still in but it's different, hugging, egdehogging, wavelanding, are still in as well.

Three: No matter how you look at it, even Melee wasn't all that deep. People only assume that because you play as known Nintendo characters. If the characters were original characters, I gurantee no one would be claiming that Smash would be deep because they won't be blinded due to fanboyism

Four: It SEEMS to me that some (NOT ALL) pro players are afraid of relearning the game

Five: I know this post will be overlooked. Whether people agree with my points or not. It won't even get counterarguments sadly.

 

[Sliq]

For the people who need bugs, sure.

Brawl will be great. You guys can still play Melee if you want :>

I hope you die of cancer.

 

[slikvik]

I hope you die of cancer.

sliq, just put the dumb trolls on your ignore list so you dont have to read their comments. green kirby made a good post that was overshadowed by ***********. i would respond to it but i have class soon

 

[flyinfilipino]

One: With stuff like Footstool Jumping, crawling, and not being paralyzed after air dodging, the game will now have more so called depth

Two: Only wavedashing seems to be gone. L-caneling is still in but it's different, hugging, egdehogging, wavelanding, are still in as well.

Three: No matter how you look at it, even Melee wasn't all that deep. People only assume that because you play as known Nintendo characters. If the characters were original characters, I gurantee no one would be claiming that Smash would be deep because they won't be blinded due to fanboyism

Four: It SEEMS to me that some (NOT ALL) pro players are afraid of relearning the game

Five: I know this post will be overlooked. Whether people agree with my points or not. It won't even get counterarguments sadly.

Hey, a post!

 

[shadydentist]

Every competitive game worth playing has advanced techniques. Enough said.

 

[Sliq]

I don't care about the lack of wavedashing or the change of the l-canceling system. I'm upset about the snap recoveries and the auto sweet spot.

 

[ron561]

One: With stuff like Footstool Jumping, crawling, and not being paralyzed after air dodging, the game will now have more so called depth

Two: Only wavedashing seems to be gone. L-caneling is still in but it's different, hugging, egdehogging, wavelanding, are still in as well.

Three: No matter how you look at it, even Melee wasn't all that deep. People only assume that because you play as known Nintendo characters. If the characters were original characters, I gurantee no one would be claiming that Smash would be deep because they won't be blinded due to fanboyism

Four: It SEEMS to me that some (NOT ALL) pro players are afraid of relearning the game

Five: I know this post will be overlooked. Whether people agree with my points or not. It won't even get counterarguments sadly.

Number 4 is the truth.

You guys can also play through adventure or use training mode and figure out what techniques work and get use to the new game.

 

[Genesai]

No offense, but I can almost assuredly say that you would lose to any active tournament player. You have almost zero fighting experience.

You took my post the wrong way. I guess now that I re-read it, it sounds sort of like i'm ranting, but thats not what i meant for it to sound like.

I actually meant it in a positive way because although I never heard of adv tech i'm more than willing to learn. I'd appreciate if you could point me in the direction of a thread about adv tech and how-to sort of thing, if there is one.

Your right by the way. I don't have any adv tech experience, but saying i have no experience at all...well that's a bit uncalled for. You never faught with me, so I think making such a rash judgment is a bit unfair.

Again though, don't get me wrong, you probably are better than me if you use adv techniques, which u obviously do. I've seen a gimpyfish vid and him talking a tiny bit about adv tech and it sounds pretty cool to me, and i'm hoping to find a thread where i can learn how to use adv tech and then be reborn as a smasher...

Thanks for your time.

 

[Cless]

you were at the tournament in philly this saturday. did i play you?

It's possible. I don't remember the names of most of the people I played. You probably beat me though since I lost to like everyone who goes to tournaments regularly.

You took my post the wrong way. I guess now that I re-read it, it sounds sort of like i'm ranting, but thats not what i meant for it to sound like.

I actually meant it in a positive way because although I never heard of adv tech i'm more than willing to learn. I'd appreciate if you could point me in the direction of a thread about adv tech and how-to sort of thing, if there is one.

Your right by the way. I don't have any adv tech experience, but saying i have no experience at all...well that's a bit uncalled for. You never faught with me, so I think making such a rash judgment is a bit unfair.

Again though, don't get me wrong, you probably are better than me if you use adv techniques, which u obviously do. I've seen a gimpyfish vid and him talking a tiny bit about adv tech and it sounds pretty cool to me, and i'm hoping to find a thread where i can learn how to use adv tech and then be reborn as a smasher...

Thanks for your time.

The melee boards have stickies and stuff you can read.

You don't have experience in various character matchups and play styles because you don't play a lot of people. I don't have any experience either.

 

[Genesai]

It's possible. I don't remember the names of most of the people I played. You probably beat me though since I lost to like everyone who goes to tournaments regularly.



The melee boards have stickies and stuff you can read.

You don't have experience in various character matchups and play styles because you don't play a lot of people. I don't have any experience either.

Allright thanks for the info.

 

[Saor Gael]

You know, this is a little off-topic, but . . .

I think the whole beef between casual and competitive players is that some competitive players come off as extremely arrogant and condescending. I'm not saying all, or even a majority. I think the behaviour of some gives them all a reputation for being rude.

The idea that someone who doesn't use AT will automatically lose to someone who does is just silly. Perhaps that makes it more likely that the AT user will win, perhaps significantly so, but it is never a sure thing. The AT user might be 'off' that day. The non-AT user might be able to read him like a book, even if he doesn't know advanced techniques. The more casual player might play in such an esoteric way that it confuses the more advanced player who is used to people playing in more formal styles.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[WastingPenguins]

You know, this is a little off-topic, but . . .

I think the whole beef between casual and competitive players is that some competitive players come off as extremely arrogant and condescending. I'm not saying all, or even a majority. I think the behaviour of some gives them all a reputation for being rude.

The idea that someone who doesn't use AT will automatically lose to someone who does is just silly. Perhaps that makes it more likely that the AT user will win, perhaps significantly so, but it is never a sure thing. The AT user might be 'off' that day. The non-AT user might be able to read him like a book, even if he doesn't know advanced techniques. The more casual player might play in such an esoteric way that it confuses the more advanced player who is used to people playing in more formal styles.

Just something to keep in mind.

The outcome of a match has nothing to do with which techniques each player has knowledge of. Rather, it will usually be decided by who is the better player, techniques or not. This is a much more complicated issue than most people will admit.

Perhaps, for instance, the player who claims to use ATs uses them incorrectly. Obviously they will do him no good in this case. Or perhaps he simply isn't very good at them, or doesn't use them in beneficial ways. They will do him no good in this case either. Perhaps he is quite proficient at the technical side of Smash, but his opponent is simply a smarter player than him. Again, no one is saying that one player will win specifically BECAUSE he uses one technique or another. No one is making a claim of cause and effect here.

On the flipside, having knowledge of advanced tactics will make you faster and give you many more options for movement and attack patterns, and thus will generally increase most players' skill. Take for instance basketball-- the player with the best ball-handling skills will not necessarily win a game of 1 on 1, especially if he can't make a shot, but having great dribbling skills certainly doesn't hurt and is an important part of his skill level.

 

[thesage]

AT's don't make you good. I know somebody who's insanely technical, yet my Ness still beat his Fox. It's a combination of tech skill + using that tech skill to play smart. Smash is all about playing smarter than your opponent. Usually if a person is able to use ATs proficiently they usually play smarter as they have more options. If they are unable to use or see those options then they aren't using ATs to their full advantage.