advanced techniches: To return? or fixed bug?

[TheKingboo]

While i attended Eforall, i got to play SSBB, when it was my turn to play i tried to wavedash, but i just couldnt'. Maybe i was too happy and didnt get the right timing...but i tried several times, i got KO'ed like 3 times trying to get it right. i know alot of you players are very used to this way of playing. i really am not, and i for one am against them. But for the other players that use this even usually, will feel alittle awkward not being able to at least wave dash. Anyone hopes they will return, or that any other Fighting Adv.Tech. will be found?

My guess is that there might be, until the PAL version isreleased...because Sakurai i think wants a fair fight online and all....He even thought out the disconnecting player problome.

Sorta like the Red shell game lock trick for melee...not a BIG glitch, but was fun...

 

[Yaya]

Hate to sound like a mod, but please check Gimpyfish's Brawl Impressions thread, it's stickied.

 

[MookieRah]

Please use the search function. We have A LOT of documented info from E for All that contains stuff that has been kept in and others that haven't.

 

[The Hypnotist]

My theory is Sakurai doesn't want anyone to be good at the game (or better than others) so he removes advanced techniques to close the gap. To bad complete balance in a game that millions play is impossible.

 

[flyinfilipino]

My theory is Sakurai doesn't want anyone to be good at the game (or better than others) so he removes advanced techniques to close the gap. To bad complete balance in a game that millions play is impossible.

This sounds like you're conceding that without advanced techniques, you're not better at Smash than anyone else.

 

[Xanderous]

This sounds like you're conceding that without advanced techniques, you're not better at Smash than anyone else.

He JUST said that complete balance is impossible. Talk about selective hearing...

 

[MookieRah]

This sounds like you're conceding that without advanced techniques, you're not better at Smash than anyone else.

Without advance techniques, I'm still better than most people.

 

[flyinfilipino]

He JUST said that complete balance is impossible. Talk about selective hearing...

Maybe I read it a little wrong, but he's still being really overdramatic about it. You don't need advanced techniques to be 'better than other people'.

Without advance techniques, I'm still better than most people.

I believe that, and that's what I'm trying to say.

 

[Magnacor]

Welcome to the forums, but check out Gimpy's Brawl Impression before reading any further. On topic, yes more advanced techniques will pop up, though it may take a while.

 

[Super_alex2]

Hate to sound like a mod, but please check Gimpyfish's Brawl Impressions thread, it's stickied.

nah, mods are cool.

 

[gigasteve]

Even if wavedashing isn't in, we can still tech and pivot, right?

 

[Cless]

Epic mindgames and experience is all it takes to be good. You're placing too much emphasis on advanced techniques. One of the reasons I like some other fighters better than Smash is that there isn't as much of an emphasis on tech skill. There's probably going to still be stuff in the game anyway.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Epic mindgames and experience is all it takes to be good. You're placing too much emphasis on advanced techniques. One of the reasons I like some other fighters better than Smash is that there isn't as much of an emphasis on tech skill. There's probably going to still be stuff in the game anyway.

I humbly and whole-heartedly agree.

 

[Genesai]

Epic mindgames and experience is all it takes to be good. You're placing too much emphasis on advanced techniques. One of the reasons I like some other fighters better than Smash is that there isn't as much of an emphasis on tech skill. There's probably going to still be stuff in the game anyway.

I have never ever even heard of wavedashing before I got onto these forums, or any other advance techniques for that matter. I didn't even know that such things existed... I played melee since it came out and I am the best smasher out of my friends and people in my neighborhood. I consider myself extremely competetive when it comes to smash bros altho during free for alls I use items, but in tourney's and when i am having a hardcore 1 vs 1 fight i dont use items.

I never used any of these adv techniques or even heard of them before, altho i see i'v been pretty blind for all these years.

I still feel that i am rlly good tho, and i can't picture myself loosing ever on a one on one fight.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I have never ever even heard of wavedashing before I got onto these forums, or any other advance techniques for that matter. I didn't even know that such things existed... I played melee since it came out and I am the best smasher out of my friends and people in my neighborhood. I consider myself extremely competetive when it comes to smash bros altho during free for alls I use items, but in tourney's and when i am having a hardcore 1 vs 1 fight i dont use items.

I never used any of these adv techniques or even heard of them before, altho i see i'v been pretty blind for all these years.

I still feel that i am rlly good tho, and i can't picture myself loosing ever on a one on one fight.

Be prepared for the possibility of being unncessarily flamed.

 

[Cless]

I have never ever even heard of wavedashing before I got onto these forums, or any other advance techniques for that matter. I didn't even know that such things existed... I played melee since it came out and I am the best smasher out of my friends and people in my neighborhood. I consider myself extremely competetive when it comes to smash bros altho during free for alls I use items, but in tourney's and when i am having a hardcore 1 vs 1 fight i dont use items.

I never used any of these adv techniques or even heard of them before, altho i see i'v been pretty blind for all these years.

I still feel that i am rlly good tho, and i can't picture myself loosing ever on a one on one fight.

No offense, but I can almost assuredly say that you would lose to any active tournament player. You have almost zero fighting experience.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Without advanced techniques it's a lot harder to be significantly better than someone else. If my Peach couldn't Float Cancel, DD, Wavedash, Chain Throw, Tech, or V-Drop my peach would really suck.

Advanced techniques are essential to be very good. How many good Fox players do you know that waveshine, DSHL, tech, wavedash, shffl or foxtrot. I doubt your going to find a Fox that doesn't do any of those things that can beat a fox that does all of those things.

Find a good player who uses Ice Climbers who doesn't wavedash, I dare you to. Same with Luigi.

 

[Cless]

And she can still do all of those. Peach may be the only character actually able to wavedash.

I realize that advanced tactics are essential to some characters, but where would those tactics be without mindgames and experience? Those two are by far more important, but you can get by with mad tech skill, which is an aspect of smash I don't like.

 

[The Hypnotist]

And she can still do all of those. Peach may be the only character actually able to wavedash.

I realize that advanced tactics are essential to some characters, but where would those tactics be without mindgames and experience? Those two are by far more important, but you can get by with mad tech skill, which is an aspect of smash I don't like.

I know what your saying (and I'm so happy my main didn't get changed that much), but what I want you and flyinfilipino to understand is that...

To be very good you need ATs, period. A Fox player who knows ATs and mind games is virtually always going to beat a Fox who doesn't know ATs.

Seriously, show me some Ice Climbers who don't wavedash that are good. Show me a Samus ditto where the player who knows how to wavedash and missile cancel loses to the player that doesn't.

 

[MookieRah]

One of the reasons I like some other fighters better than Smash is that there isn't as much of an emphasis on tech skill.

You do know that smash is the least technically demanding fighter out there... right? You might want to brush up on the other tournament scenes before making statements like that.

Epic mindgames and experience is all it takes to be good.

Limited options makes for limited depth. When a game isn't very deep players will reach a plateau and not get much further. People would then eventually get bored and move on. If melee was stripped bear of it's advanced techniques it would be a much more boring game on the competitive scale. Without l-canceling it lends more benefits to the defending player, and it slows the game down. Fewer strategies would come about, and more than likely it would just be a camp fest. There would be less "mind games" and more reactive based play. It would get pretty stale.

When a game offers a plethora of options though, the metagame can continue for years. Melee offered a lot of things, intentional or not, that allowed for players to get better. The better stuff *usually* involved a smidgen of work to improve your tech, but honestly it isn't much work at all, especially compared to other fighting games.

 

[Cless]

Hmm, well, in the end, we don't know what Brawl is going to offer just yet. I think the new air dodge is really interesting. Others would disagree. We'll see when the game comes out.

I'm not really an experienced SF2 player, but does that game have so many viable options at each situation that warrants its continuing popularity based on your assessment?

 

[flyinfilipino]

You do know that smash is the least technically demanding fighter out there... right? You might want to brush up on the other tournament scenes before making statements like that.

You mean 'most' technical, right? Otherwise you'd be agreeing with him.

I understand that using advanced techniques in the tournament scene is a requirement to be good. What do I not understand? I don't really know, my brain is just fried from studying. Sorry. Also, I just noticed the typo in the thread title.

 

[The Hypnotist]

You mean 'most' technical, right? Otherwise you'd be agreeing with him.

I understand that using advanced techniques in the tournament scene is a requirement to be good. What do I not understand? I don't really know, my brain is just fried from studying. Sorry. Also, I just noticed the typo in the thread title.

I want to make sure that you know that even though mind games are important you need ATs to be really good. ATs are what made Melee so complex. A Fox player who knows advanced techniques will always beat a Fox player who doesn't (assuming they both know mind games).

 

[Cless]

You mean 'most' technical, right? Otherwise you'd be agreeing with him.

I understand that using advanced techniques in the tournament scene is a requirement to be good. What do I not understand? I don't really know, my brain is just fried from studying. Sorry. Also, I just noticed the typo in the thread title.

He was quoting me. What are you talking about?

 

[flyinfilipino]

I want to make sure that you know that even though mind games are important you need ATs to be really good. ATs are what made Melee so complex. A Fox player who knows advanced techniques will always beat a Fox player who doesn't (assuming they both know mind games).

Yes sir, I understand that. But does that apply to every character too? Just a curious question, as I haven't had the pleasure of seeing too many other characters used at a tournament.

@Cless: See, my brain is fried. I should stop reading posts now, I read yours wrong.

 

[NES n00b]

You do know that smash is the least technically demanding fighter out there... right? You might want to brush up on the other tournament scenes before making statements like that.


Limited options makes for limited depth. When a game isn't very deep players will reach a plateau and not get much further. People would then eventually get bored and move on. If melee was stripped bear of it's advanced techniques it would be a much more boring game on the competitive scale. Without l-canceling it lends more benefits to the defending player, and it slows the game down. Fewer strategies would come about, and more than likely it would just be a camp fest. There would be less "mind games" and more reactive based play. It would get pretty stale.

When a game offers a plethora of options though, the metagame can continue for years. Melee offered a lot of things, intentional or not, that allowed for players to get better. The better stuff *usually* involved a smidgen of work to improve your tech, but honestly it isn't much work at all, especially compared to other fighting games.

The only good fighting game I know that has less technical skill then Smash is Street Fighter 2.

Anyways, without advance techs, Melee would have alot less depth and balance. It would have been a terrible fighting game in terms of how much depth it has.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Yes sir, I understand that. But does that apply to every character too? Just a curious question, as I haven't had the pleasure of seeing too many other characters used at a tournament.

@Cless: See, my brain is fried. I should stop reading posts now, I read yours wrong.

Pretty much, I'll name several examples

Luigi needs to wavedash or he'll get owned
Ice Climbers need to wavedash or they'll get owned
Mewtwo needs to wavedash or he'll get owned
All good Jigglypuffs know how to wall of pain, and they do. They also chain throw.
Good Shieks needle cancel, l cancel, and chain throw
All pro Falcos SHL
Fox (the best character) needs to wavedash, waveshine, DSHL, foxtrot, DD, SHFFL and more to be really good
Peach must Float Cancel... Period
Bowser has to L-Cancel... Period
A good Samus knows how to virtually always make it back when recovering (same with Jiggs)
Good Dr. Marios SHFFL and pill rush

You get the point. The best example though is Fox because he is the best and most used character and you have to work the hardest to play as Fox.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I want to make sure that you know that even though mind games are important you need ATs to be really good. ATs are what made Melee so complex. A Fox player who knows advanced techniques will always beat a Fox player who doesn't (assuming they both know mind games).

That is a flawed example really, since Fox requires ATs to really shine, no pun intended.

What about characters like Captain Falcon, a good CF main doesn't really NEED as many advanced techniques to do well.


The way I see it, Brawl will have it's exploits that will become advanced techniques and glitches that will be... well... glitches. No game is perfect and Smash Bros is practically built around it's physics system. The problem is, how long did it take for these to become apparent in Melee? Who was really thinking "I wonder if I can use this new air dodge thing they added and use it to slide on the ground" before the game was even released? We have no idea what Brawl has in store for us and that could be a potential problem.

I have my doubts Brawl will be as "Great" as Melee on the competitive and hardcore scene because people are going to be unwilling to give it a chance. We know practically everything about Melee after like 7 years of gameplay, but people seem to want to have Brawl mastered after a demo that was up for a few days.

 

[The Hypnotist]

That is a flawed example really, since Fox requires ATs to really shine, no pun intended.

What about characters like Captain Falcon, a good CF main doesn't really NEED as many advanced techniques to do well.

I already named several examples but I'll do Falcon.

Because Falcon's Spot Dodge sucks a good falcon must know when and how to shield grab. Falcon's really need to SHFFL and for mind games it never hurts to moonwalk. Even though Falcon is less technical than Fox you still need ATs to play well with him. You can't not SHFFL/FC or wavedash/waveland and expect to be good.

 

[Ruggeth]

Wave dashing was a bug. It was taken out.

If you try to tell that to some of the people on this forum they just plug their ears "LALALALALALAL"

**** happens.

 

[Blue X]

I guess the way I see the whole "advanced techniques" debate is simple: if those who are really good at Smash look hard enough, there's going to be new techniques for them to use. There's always going to be that line between casual and pro players. All we'll need to wait for is how the mechanics of the game change and how it will effect gameplay, what with the final smashes now in.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Wave dashing was a bug. It was taken out.

If you try to tell that to some of the people on this forum they just plug their ears "LALALALALALAL"

**** happens.

Peach can still wavedash, and the game isn't done yet.

 

[Ruggeth]

But can fox wavedash?

Shoop.

 

[The Hypnotist]

The point is advanced techniques are what make the game difficult to master and it looks like Sakurai is removing some advanced techniques, which sucks.

 

[Ruggeth]

For the people who need bugs, sure.

Brawl will be great. You guys can still play Melee if you want :>

 

[MookieRah]

The point is advanced techniques are what make the game difficult to master and it looks like Sakurai is removing some advanced techniques, which sucks.

No, the point is that the advanced techniques added depth, and removing depth is what sucks.

 

[Cless]

For the people who need bugs, sure.

Brawl will be great. You guys can still play Melee if you want :>

Dude, you aren't adding anything to the thread. Lots of fighting games have exploits or just generally unknown things about moves and characters that are used to get the most out of the game.

 

[NES n00b]

No, the point is that the advanced techniques added depth, and removing depth is what sucks.

I love you MOOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Genesai, you are horrible at the game compared to tourney players no johns.

 

[5150]

I have never ever even heard of wavedashing before I got onto these forums, or any other advance techniques for that matter. I didn't even know that such things existed... I played melee since it came out and I am the best smasher out of my friends and people in my neighborhood. I consider myself extremely competetive when it comes to smash bros altho during free for alls I use items, but in tourney's and when i am having a hardcore 1 vs 1 fight i dont use items.

I never used any of these adv techniques or even heard of them before, altho i see i'v been pretty blind for all these years.

I still feel that i am rlly good tho, and i can't picture myself loosing ever on a one on one fight.

LOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL its like they just copy and paste the same post over and over since this game came out!!!!!! lollllllllllll

 

[The Hypnotist]

No, the point is that the advanced techniques added depth, and removing depth is what sucks.

Correct FTW!