About Zero

[Hippieslayer]

This is about Zero in particular and the cancel culture in the Smash Community in general. Please read to the end. I am not defending what Zero did, but I'm trying to put it into perspective.

People throw the word pedofile around a lot. Whenever someone tries to bring some kind of nuance into the discussion it's there: "You are defending a pedophile". The problem being you don't really seem to know what pedophilia actually is and you don't seem to understand what you are doing throwing the word around. You drain it of it's actual meaning.

What Zero did does not constitute pedophilia. That's not up for discussion. At all. What he did constitutes hebephilia. At worst. And even that is stretching it considering how young Zero was at the time. You act like the american views about sex and ages of consent are objective truth; they are not.

There's just no nuance whatsoever. Whether someone 24+ directly and physically overpowered and r**ed a minor or some 19 year old sent some creepy messages to another a younger teenager who was 14 years of age doesn't matter. Everyone gets the same treatment.

And that treatment is having everything taken from them with no chance of ever getting it back or being forgiven.

Zero was a young, obese, nerdy and horny virgin who had lived his entire adult life in the smash scene bubble. Moreover, he had emigrated alone from Chile. And when he sent those messages he had been living in Skye Williams house for some time. A place where that type of behavior was normal and; furthermore, a place which housed actual pedophiles. Think about what this means for a bit please. Like really think. If you can stop hating for half a minute or so. These circumstances do not excuse Zero, but they are still relevant.

What do you expect from a guy like that? What right do you have to take everything from him for a few mistakes he commited when he was not really an adult either. How many young, stupid, sexually inept and horny guys have made similar mistakes?

I'm guessing a fairly large percentage, that's what I've taken from the "Me too" movement. And I'm also guessing that some of the people who are hellbent on hating Zero and wanted him jailed are probably not so innocent themselves. We are all just humans, and humans make mistakes, and if we want to make a world that's fit for us to live in we have to be able to forgive and not just punish.

Individuals living in a culture that permits these types of acts cannot be held entirely responsible for acting in accordance with said culture. Dealing with said individual by getting rid of them permanently will not solve the problem. Rather, it is a quick fix done more for purpose of satisfying a kind of bloodlust; thereby, giving birth to another type of culture wherein we can't really talk about these things in a rational manner because of all the emotional extremes (hatred and fear in particular) involved.

A lot of the people making memes and spouting the word Pedophile are quite frankly young and stupid. They are people who enjoy hating because it gives their lives a temporary sense of purpose. It comes naturally to them whereas nuanced thinking does not, that's something far more difficult to do because it requires being able to look past your own initial emotional response to the matter at hand.

But consider this: Zero (and a few others who were similarly treated by the smash community) gave their entire lives to this game. They bet it all on a kind of mad gamble. People like them who are willing to do that are arguably the lifeblood of this entire community. The skills they dedicated their lives to honing are what makes the game exciting to watch.

Smash was their career, their social life etc.. Smash was their everything. And without thinking twice you took it all away. You may as well have put a bag over Zero's head, led him out into some secluded place and then shot him . It would have been quicker and far less painful. Think again about who Zero was when he sent those messages. Where he was at and how he got there. Is the suffering he caused proportional to the punishment he recieved?

I don't think so. And I don't think anyone in this community has any business throwing additional hatred onto Zero. It's just not your job to do that and you should be glad that you don't have blood on your hands.. yet that is. You soon might, and you are lucky you haven't already. Consider Reckfull.

That is all.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

One lesson cancel culture has taught me is that being a victim does not give you an inherent moral high ground. People say some utterly horrific things about those who have done wrong doings and get away with it under the pretence of "karma". We should hold people responsible without having to end their carrer or fantastise about running them over or punching them in the balls. Retribution hurts everybody - if you don't let people change, there will be less good people and more suffering in the world. All retribution does is give a brief, ecstatic buzz of "justice" having been served, like a 5-year old's sugar rush after 90 grams of M&Ms - but it will never help anyone change, or protect anyone from the actions of those we want gone.

 

[Hippieslayer]

It is very easy to dehumanize from up on a pedestal, and when it gets to that point mob mentality takes over and people act without any moral concerns at all. All the while thinking themselves champions of justice. Really, they are not. They are more like judge, jury and executioner.

 

[link2702]

you know....I find it interesting that the very same groups of people who scream "Cancel culture!" this and "Cancel culture!" that, are the same ones who often say "actions have consequences" When it comes time for them to justify a police officer murdering a black man for selling cigarettes on the street corner. Or someone getting 10+ years of prison time for having a few ounces of pot on them.

And so with this in mind, with these "eternal words of wisdom" from these groups who've found a new buzz word to parrot around.....

Actions have consequences. Nobody "took" zero's career and life away from him. He flushed it down the toilet himself. Period. He knew the things he was doing were wrong. Along with every one else that got busted in that little ****show.

 

[Hippieslayer]

you know....I find it interesting that the very same groups of people who scream "Cancel culture!" this and "Cancel culture!" that, are the same ones who often say "actions have consequences" When it comes time for them to justify a police officer murdering a black man for selling cigarettes on the street corner. Or someone getting 10+ years of prison time for having a few ounces of pot on them.

And so with this in mind, with these "eternal words of wisdom" from these groups who've found a new buzz word to parrot around.....

Actions have consequences. Nobody "took" zero's career and life away from him. He flushed it down the toilet himself. Period. He knew the things he was doing were wrong. Along with every one else that got busted in that little ****show.

You're not really responding to any of what I brought up.

Obviously Zero is ultimately the one responsible for what happened to him, we all know that. Our morals and our whole justice system is built on the assumption that individuals have free will and are responsible for their actions and it has to stay that way for it to work. Yet we also know that science says otherwise, and we have to acknowledge that as well and not just pretend like that's not a fact because cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable (like you're doing).

And all that other stuff you wrote is just a bunch of assumptions. Yes, there's probably something of a correlation of the nature you propose on a larger scale because politics are much like team sports, but I used the "buzzword" cancel culture because it isn't just that; it is an actual phenomenon. I'd never try to justify police officers murdering black men.

Assuming as much about anyone in particular who is saying we do have an issue here that needs talking about is unfair and part of the problem. Just like those who question how one can defend a pedophile you're saying something that is only partially true at best. Your purpose in doing so being to silence those who question what's been and what is still happening. It's mob mentality.

Furthermore, I don't appreciate you bringing a bunch of other highly controversial political topics into this already controversial thread based on a theoretical correlation.

You kind of seem like another of those people who just don't want to admit that there's something not quite right going on even though it's rather obvious. Again consider Reckfull, this **** has consequences. Nairo comes to mind as well, that guy didn't do anything wrong and any of the people who think they would've acted differently than him are mostly just being naive. To me it kinda feels like we punish the people whose transgressions were brought to light harshly because we'd rather not have to deal with the fact that these types of culprits are everywhere. It's kind of scapegoating. Notice I said "kind of" I know Zero's actions merited blame, but the big culprit isn't Zero (or even Ally) it's something much bigger and it's being swept under the rug.

If we want to make lasting changes were gonna have to do more. There's a lot of stuff that's not being talked about, such as men's sexuality being inherently problematic. But there's no easy solution to that, so we deal with what we can and we overdo it to compensate creating more problems. Right now, would be culprit's are gonna lay low, but give it a few more years and will we really have changed anything? I'm not so sure. I don't have all the answers here. But I feel like I kinda know what's not the answer and that likewise so do you.

 

[xzx]

I heard the other day that ZeRo tried to commit suicide, is that true?

 

[Hippieslayer]

I heard the other day that ZeRo tried to commit suicide, is that true?

I'm afraid it is.

The man did lose his reputation, career, friends, fiance, and perhaps ultimately his new country; it wouldn't be strange if he ended up moving back to Chile. Rather it would be sort of natural. As is what he tried to do recently.

This is why I don't think people have any business posting memes about him, harassing him, or calling him a pedophile. The man has suffered more than enough for what he did.

While Zero is a perpetrator, and very much guilty.
He is also a victim of the times were living in. He did what he did not just because he's scum, but also because he was a very young man with lots of issues in a strange place, harboring a cultural disease, which he helped perpetuate, but did not create. And no matter how wrong this might all sound he deserves sympathy -not hate- at this point.

You may feel differently, but I'm asking people to look past your feelings for they are just that and; hence, do not necessarily make sense. Because this level of ostracizing does kill people. There's a reason our justice system protects not only the victims but also the perpetrators. That is because historically it has generally been the case that when large groups of people smell blood they fall under a spell, enter a frenzy, and cease all rational thinking and sense of proportion.

What I want to achieve with this thread is to get people to snap out of it. I realize my hopes are probably vain. There's just not a lot of people who are going to read this; however, If I can get just person to question their stance on the matter then I'm happy.

And let's be honest, while this time it's mostly people who committed heinous acts who are being thrown under the bus, the same people whose idea of justice drove a man to attempt to take his own life would've been happy to do the same to anyone based on things that would not hold up in court for a reason. Just look at Nairo. Or Anti. Those men were not clearly guilty of anything.

And the same people would've voted for a certain man for much the same reasons. And, I'm not talking about Trump. I'm not calling anyone a national socialist either, but in psychological terms many of the same mechanics were involved.

Historically there's been so many cases that we can now safely say that whenever an overwhelming majority passionately agree that certain people or person's are wholly to blame for certain issues pertaining in some part to society and culture as a whole then there's likely good reason to stop and question what one is doing, thinking, and most of all feeling.

People can be perpetrators while at the same time being victims. There's nothing paradoxical about it. This was the case with Ally too, who was at one point also suicidal. He knew better and acted in spite of it; however, he was also clearly manipulated by someone with little regard for what he did to other people. And there's lots of little things about his case which were never taken into consideration because almost no one welcomed nuance.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Hey, I'm gonna be posting this on Reddit instead and once I do I will edit this post with a link to the reddit thread. This forum has a ton of great people and the level of discussion here is generally a lot higher than on reddit, that's why I picked this place to make this thread in the first place, but unfortunately too many people have migrated to facebook groups, twitter and reddit and the like.

I suppose I understand why, but it's still a shame, this place has much better content than those others, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be enough to cut it in this day and age. Smashboards will always have a special place in my heart, especially the Competitive Impressions threads which have housed some awesome high level discussions, but it's clear as day that this place is dying.

Peace, love, understanding & forgiveness!

Edit: I tried posting this on reddit and some other places but it just seems impossible because some moderator always comes up with a reason to remove and then proceeds to do so. Any suggestions on how I might actually reach out to people?

 

[xzx]

Hey, I'm gonna be posting this on Reddit instead and once I do I will edit this post with a link to the reddit thread. This forum has a ton of great people and the level of discussion here is generally a lot higher than on reddit, that's why I picked this place to make this thread in the first place, but unfortunately too many people have migrated to facebook groups, twitter and reddit and the like.

I suppose I understand why, but it's still a shame, this place has much better content than those others, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be enough to cut it in this day and age. Smashboards will always have a special place in my heart, especially the Competitive Impressions threads which have housed some awesome high level discussions, but it's clear as day that this place is dying.

Peace, love, understanding & forgiveness!

Edit: I tried posting this on reddit and some other places but it just seems impossible because some moderator always comes up with a reason to remove and then proceeds to do so. Any suggestions on how I might actually reach out to people?

Maybe do a Youtube video on it?

 

[StoicPhantom]

Cancel Culture isn't anything new and has been used as a form of social control for eons now. What is new is technology and a society that has willingly thrown away any concept of privacy that has lead to pretty much anyone born after 2000 to have everything about their lives meticulously recorded and preserved indefinitely. No matter how much you regret some embarrassing action stemming from ignorance or a momentary impulse the world will never forget or forgive it. It doesn't matter how long ago or how much you've changed since then, you will always be held to your past actions.

And yeah, there's not really any endgame to this other than Mutually Assured Destruction. You meticulously comb through someone's life and you will find some unsavory thing they did that would lead to their cancellation. That much is a given to anyone that isn't emotionally stunted children with an idol complex, which perfectly describes the Smash community. You get through life without being immediately suspicious of or hateful towards other people because they keep their shamefulness a secret. That's no longer the case as everything you do will be recorded and used against you sometime down the line.

And not just the recording, but modern society has become warped to the point that people will happily do the combing for the sole purpose of destroying someone. Watching people comb through years of someone's tweets to find something vaguely offensive is certainly something, but people sitting on something for years waiting for the right moment when they can cause maximum damage is downright horrifying.


Unfortunately though, I don't think there is anything you can do about it other than wait for the whole thing to collapse. It's not that people are naive or genuinely misguided so much as they derive profit from these types of incidents. Alleged victims get their elaborate and masturbatory revenge fantasies realized and their time in the sympathy spotlight, rivals get another obstacle removed and a social boost from their performative outrage (while no doubt being secretly terrified their turn on the pyre may come up soon), and all of the bystanders get to join in the mob outrage over something that they have no stakes or connection to and thus will suffer no consequences if things go badly.

It's really about narcissism and clout chasing at the end of the day. Everyone is trying to become a brand now and attract idol worshipers and corporate sponsors. I am just utterly revolted when I look at the professional side of Smash where people have effectively turned themselves into products and you just pick between Coke and Pepsi at this point. Capitalism has so thoroughly ****ed people's minds that they happily commodify themselves while trying to destroy other commodified people to make their own brand seem more appealing and reduce competition.

All of these "community leaders" (players, commentators, content creators, TOs) that are being demanded by the community to "speak up" and "protect" the community would happily throw their best friend under the bus in order to protect their brand. The Nairo aspect really illustrated how completely shameless and lacking in integrity these people are to immediately ostracize him without even hearing his side of the story because the court of public opinion demanded it and then shamelessly switch when things swung the other way and act like his ban was a grave injustice they didn't have a hand in creating. Rather than corporations becoming people it seems people became corporations.


Ultimately, there's a very harsh lesson to learn in that very few people will ever make it big and, no matter how much you try to tear down other people, you will never increase your own value and attractiveness. Technology drastically lowering the bar of entry has greatly obfuscated this, but if you are already to the point of trying to destroy the competition then you have proven that you have no intrinsic worth or value to you. Cancel Culture is fundamentally about losers and nobodies trying use the fall of someone great to inflate their own worth. Any alleged victim, crime, or moral transgression isn't the real focus so much as it is how they can make it about them. They carefully measure public opinion and then design a statement that will get them the most likes/retweets/etc and hope they can get enough staying power once things die down.

But a nobody is a nobody at the end of the day. Hard work and the grind don't make someone great. Hard work cultivates an inherent talent and perseverance comes from an inherent drive. If your entire focus is on making yourself appear great then you fundamentally are never going to make it. Greatness is something people comprehend on an instinctive level and is not something you can fake.

And until people learn that lesson, Cancel Culture will continue until people destroy each other. People are their own worst enemy at the end of the day and you can't really save them from themselves. I'd say you can only really disengage and let it collapse on its own. George Carlin is probably correct that we're finished as a country/species and are only just circling the drain at this point in time.



As for Zero specifically... I don't really know. My personal opinion is that I wasn't as impressed with the gravity of his allegations as I was with some of the others. Not only was their no real evidence that was able to be procured (that I saw anyways), but even if it were true it didn't really have that much of an impact. If getting creepy messages from some dude on the internet is the worst that's happened to you, then as far as I'm concerned, you've lived a pretty uneventful life. Block him and turn off the ****ing computer.

Is soliciting sexual content from minors on the internet bad? Yes. Are the type of individuals that engage in that type of behavior people you want to shield your community from? Yes. Is it something that, as far as anyone can tell has since stopped for years, needs to be held over someone for years even if they have seemingly changed? I don't think so.

I think Zero made it explicitly clear, even before this incident, that he never wants to return to competition or interact with the community at large again. It seems to me that he desired to create content more than engage in events with the community. I don't think there is anything wrong with him doing so. You can choose to support him or not at that point.

Edit: I tried posting this on reddit and some other places but it just seems impossible because some moderator always comes up with a reason to remove and then proceeds to do so. Any suggestions on how I might actually reach out to people?

I mean it's Reddit. Its an authoritarian hellhole that's designed entirely to promote consumption and circlejerking. Opinions that differ from the mainstream are heavily discouraged and moderators aren't going to allow a topic that, as far as they and their community are concerned, only has one answer.

As far as alternatives go... this is it. Dying forums that haven't clung to wokeism as life support are your only real alternatives. A consequence of allowing corporations to monopolize the internet is that said internet is centralized around one particular hub of websites whose entire purpose is to promote """content""" that they can fry your brain with ads and suggestions intermittently while creating a monoculture around specific brands while using complex algorithms to mine data from you to sell to shadowy entities.

 

[Sucumbio]

I mean... When you're 19, you should probably avoid sexy time chat with a minor. He'll regret it for the rest of his life, no doubt. I'm saddened to learn he attempted suicide. As this shows cancel culture is very stressful and dangerous. As is becoming a celebrity, which he was. It's a bad situation all around. Bad for the victim because of the trauma, bad for Zero because he lost everything and bad for the Smash Community at large. My only hope is that last year's massive revelation leads to a better community rather than making it worse.

 

[Ben Holt]

Controversial post incoming:

Not sure how it is in other places, but in my state, if the two parties are within 5 years of each other, it's not considered statutory ****.
From what I've read, she was 15, and he was 19. Four years. Could've gone to High School together. We don't usually balk at High School Seniors dating High School Freshmen when they are four years apart.
Granted, this wasn't dating, it was sending porn over the internet. That's sexual harassment. But to call it pedophilia is just dishonest. There isn't a magical force that happens on one's eighteenth birthday dictating that they are now only allowed to be attracted to people over 18. There's a buffer. These laws exist to keep grown adults from using their power to sexually exploit minors over whom they have power, not to keep teenagers from expressing their sexuality with each other. And again, what Zero did was wrong, but it was harassment, not pedophilia.

As for the idea of "cancel culture", I must warn everyone to be cautious of the thought terminating cliché. "Cancelling" started as a way to hold powerful people accountable for their crimes after getting away with it for years. It started with Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby. You'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE saying that they were wrongly "cancelled".
Unfortunately, the far-right has appropriated the term as a weapon to dismiss legitimate criticism. They even started an event called "Cancel Con". And these figures include extremely odious characters like Ben Shapiro who has defended Palestinian genocide, Dennis Prager who said that slavery was good for black Americans, and Candace Owens who was caught on camera defending Hitler during a private event.
This is not "Cancel Culture". You had to have been liked in the first place to be cancelled.
The big targets right now are Mr. Potato Head and Dr. Seuss, but no one ever cancelled them. These were MARKETING DECISIONS. Hasbro rebranded Potato Head on their own accord. The Seuss estate stopped publishing a couple obscure books with old racial caricatures, not "The Left." Not Joe Biden. Not SJWs. The Seuss's did it all on their own.
Unfortunately, it seems "cancel culture" is little more than a buzzword with no consistent meaning, so pardon me for neither defending nor condemning it.

 

[Goomboi]

I see it like this. The victims came out which was great and they shouldn't have had to go through that, but they didn't press charges. They just kinda ruined someone's life and left. They should have told the authorities, and not said stuff on Twitter when someone asks where did said player go, they say he was banned, and is being held accountable.

 

[Doc Monocle]

(It is difficult for me to gauge whether or not the content here is best suited to a separate thread, but I do deem it relevant, albeit not centralized around the individual that is Zero.)

I do not know who Zero is; neither am I familiar with his story, so I am ill-qualfied to speak about him, but in general, people are accountable for their own actions, and Zero would be no exception or special exhibit of this, and I consider it pretentious to cast stones at someone if it is not to aid/protect a community/individual. Should there be disciplinary action taken toward unruly behavior? Of course. However, my impression is that , of the world , the most common treatment is not to punish an ACTION of an unruly person, but to penalize a PERSON of an unruly action. What I mean is that the mainstream response to a trespass is to discipline the trespasser, but without giving much thought to why what they did is a bad thing. For example, suppose someone is murdered. The natural and correct thing to do is to deliver justice to the perpetrator and to the victim's family. However, if you ask someone who does not want to be seen as hypocritical, and does want to be accurate and thoughtful to define 'murder' and 'justice' using their own words, they may be a bit slow. If the next poster would humor me, I would ask them to define in their own words 'murder' and 'justice' while avoiding exclusive reliance on what they have been told by yet other flawed, limited human beings.

 

[StoicPhantom]

As for the idea of "cancel culture", I must warn everyone to be cautious of the thought terminating cliché. "Cancelling" started as a way to hold powerful people accountable for their crimes after getting away with it for years. It started with Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby. You'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE saying that they were wrongly "cancelled".

That's not Cancel Culture, but ordinary whistle blowing. Both of them committed heinous crimes and were tried and sentenced in a court of law. Their termination of employment was a matter of course when faced with the fact that they created entire systems of coercion and sexual abuse.

Cancel Culture is using social pressure to deplatform, get fired, or otherwise destroy someone's standing in society. There aren't any actual legal or competence issues with them, but they are effectively blacklisted from various associations out of fear of the mob turning on those who associate with the canceled. The Red Scare era of America was basically Cancel Culture as well and there are plenty of eras where this was utilized to terrorize and control people.

With No Allegation to Investigate, UMass Creepily Probes Alex Morse’s Romantic Life Instead

A university investigation found no policy violations by Morse — unsurprising since he was accused of none — but more evidence of Democratic Party meddling.

theintercept.com

Long story short, Alex Morse was a progressive challenger to incumbent Democrat Richard Neal for Massachusetts's 1st District's House seat during the 2020 primary. And during that run allegations towards improper relationships with his students came up and the ensuing outrage among Dems pretty much tanked his campaign. But as the article illustrates there's been thorough investigations that have exonerated him while uncovering collusion between the College Democrats and local party leadership to try to tank his campaign. Leadership within the College Democrats spread rumors about him and orchestrated an outrage mob fueled by vague rumors with no evidence in the hopes they may find an internship with Richard Neal.

He's obviously been exonerated, but the damage has long since been done as gullible Democrats believed everything they heard at face value and tried to cancel him. And they somewhat succeeded as he went from the favorite to losing to Neal who wasn't liked IIRC.

I have plenty more stories like this, including a girl who lost her scholarship because some psycho recorded her using the N word (ga) in a slang context when she was 14 and waited for the best chance to ruin her life, but this illustrates exactly what I said in my previous post. Unscrupulous individuals orchestrate outrage for personal benefit while everyone else hops on the train without even stopping to consider whether they might be making a mistake for moral masturbation. And no consequences befell those who orchestrated this, only to Alex Morse who was a victim.


This is Cancel Culture. There's no actual proven legal or policy issues, so lots of public pressure is generated to try and scare institutions and platforms to disassociate with the person in question, AKA canceling them. No one is tried in a court of law or subject to an internal investigation to determine if there is actual wrongdoing. Instead, public outrage is drummed up in order to force these institutions to deplatform them to avoid their brand being damaged.

It is bad not only because random people don't have the full story in any of these cases or the allegations in question are many years old, but because it has been proven to be easily weaponized. Not only were all of these started by individuals who would benefit from seeing people cancelled and canceling someone is as easy as making a social media post, but no consequences were ever brought upon the accusers. There's no legal ramifications for attempting to cancel someone and because these guys are nobodies the public has little interest in even remembering them compared to the famous people they tried to cancel.

You quite literally can make a completely anonymous account on Twitter and lob allegations towards someone famous and get them trending. It has happened plenty of times now, including the Smash community. And even if you are proven to be lying there is still a high chance of permanently damaging that person's reputation.

There's all sorts of issues with this kind of culture from the possibility of extortion to someone doing this for giggles. There are even people who have tried to retroactively paint past relationships with famous people as problematic in order to boost their own fame. And none of that has to do with Dr. Seuss or whatever.

 

[Hippieslayer]

The main thing with Zero's case is that the punishment he got is just so completely out of proportion in regards to what he did. Did he even traumatize anyone? I kinda doubt that.

It only seems reasonable if you buy into the whole pedophilia angle which is utter bull****, they just try to brand it as pedophilia because that's like the worst thing people can think of bar cannibalism.

And then it's the fact that the context is just not considered at all. And then it's also the fact that it's so easy to see through the whole phenomenon on a psychological level as others have demonstrated rather thoroughly in this thread.

Though I could make a youtube video compiling what's been said in here I don't think there's any point because I don't have an audience, someone well known and liked in the community is the only type of person who could do that. EE comes to mind, he's shown himself to be a more reasonable guy than most others with regards to this stuff. But why would he want to? It'd probably be a losing battle which might end up costing him a lot and he'd get a spotlight on him as well. If there's any dirt on him it would probably surface, and as we have seen it doesn't need to be anything particularly serious for people to use it to completely ruin his life and career. I know he showed up completely ****faced to a tourney once and they had to remove him from commentary because he was too drunk to do it. Perhaps that would be enough? In any case he definitely has my respect for making that video about Ally. He's in a minority though, most people act more like Esam, trying to milk the suffering of others for their own benefit. Despicable.

If I were to make a youtube video I'd have to make it outrageous enough to garner attention that way, but I doubt that would work either. People are just not interested in reasoning.

I'm kind of old (31). Old enough to remember when the internet used to be a better place, at least somewhat. Forums were plentiful, and actual discussions were had without mods rushing in to censor anything that might make someone uncomfortable. I haven't really hung out on reddit a lot, I've been in some cool subreddits, but those were all niché things. All the larger one seem to be run in a very totalitarian fashion, with rules that are formulated in a way that lets moderators arbitrarily censor whatever they wish.

I guess this has a lot to do with big corpos running the show like another poster said. Big Corpo's always buy into whatever ideology is currently prevailing because they have to.

I guess ultimately what's so disappointing about all of this are the people. They act like automatons. I'm finding it increasingly hard not to be bitter and misanthropic. It's like you gotta just find it in you to accept the world and not care so much about it. Nihilism as a survival mechanism. Jolly stuff.

Edit: I have to say though, I'm positively surprised by some of the responses here. I kinda downplayed my own stance on this matter to make it more digestible, but I realize now there was probably no need to do that. The way I kept repeating that Zero was a perpetrator in my OP was just something I did as a safety mechanism to keep ignorant people reading.

 

[BallZ]

I don't really understand what people expect, its not uncommon for society to oppress sexual predators(as we should), especially when they prey on minorities, its also not uncommon for there to be consequences such as potential jail time or termination of employment. What do these naval gazing posts hope to accomplish? That one day we reach a point where being a sex predator is only punishable with a slap on the wrist? I dont think the first step towards creating a safe environment for potential victims is to turn every predator into the next Roman Polanski.

Zero messed up, and he only has himself to blame regardless of his upbringing. I don't advocate stalking him and bothering him since I think he already payed for his crimes, but I don't think we should pretend he didn't do anything either. This isn't the same thing as getting fired because you made an edgy joke on the internet 10 years ago.

Also really disturbing to see people going so far to defend him by suggesting that age of consent laws are wrong.

 

[StoicPhantom]

What do these naval gazing posts hope to accomplish? That one day we reach a point where being a sex predator is only punishable with a slap on the wrist?

You could try reading the topic and understanding that there is two discussions centering around ZeRo specifically and Cancel Culture being awful for solving social problems in general. You can start by reading the first sentence of the topic:

This is about Zero in particular and the cancel culture in the Smash Community in general

I dont think the first step towards creating a safe environment for potential victims is to turn every predator into the next Roman Polanski.

Correct, it should be first not torching people based on baseless allegations, rumors, and hearsay. One of the most telling aspects about all this is that regardless of how the Nairo/Zack situation turns out the community is guilty of destroying a **** victim's life.

I don't advocate stalking him and bothering him since I think he already payed for his crimes,

Then why are you confused when people express concern over him getting more than he deserves?

but I don't think we should pretend he didn't do anything either.

No one said anything like that and you haven't even proved the allegations are true in the first place

"But he confessed!!!"

So did Nairo. Weird how that got thrown out, but ZeRo's entire judgement revolves around that one confession under pressure because his alleged victims managed to record everything but the actual incriminating evidence.

I'm not judging the case either way, but perhaps we shouldn't immediately come to conclusions about things we aren't privy to in the first place before worrying about whether people are downplaying it or not.

This isn't the same thing as getting fired because you made an edgy joke on the internet 10 years ago.

Once again, no one said anything like that. Pay attention to what is being said before putting words in people's mouths.

Also really disturbing to see people going so far to defend him by suggesting that age of consent laws are wrong.

I don't really understand what people expect, its not uncommon for society to oppress sexual predators(as we should), especially when they prey on minorities,

Really disturbing to see some rando new account insinuating that non-minorities being victimized is less bad. Perhaps they should think before they post and not put words in people's mouth. But that would require them to not do any "navel gazing" of their own.

 

[BallZ]

You could try reading the topic and understanding that there is two discussions centering around ZeRo specifically and Cancel Culture being awful for solving social problems in general. You can start by reading the first sentence of the topic:

Yeah I know, and my problem is the focus is more on the reaction to ZeRo to the point where people start to exonerate him.


Correct, it should be first not torching people based on baseless allegations, rumors, and hearsay. One of the most telling aspects about all this is that regardless of how the Nairo/Zack situation turns out the community is guilty of destroying a **** victim's life.

People initially defended him when the first allegation came out, it wasn't until he confessed and when another victim came forward.

Then why are you confused when people express concern over him getting more than he deserves?

like the first sentence, because it leads to the other extreme where people act like hes innocent


No one said anything like that and you haven't even proved the allegations are true in the first place

the screenshots showed him continuing to message a girl after she stated her age even though he feigned ignorance of her age and claimed to have cut off contact from her.

"But he confessed!!!"

Yeah he did, just like Roman Polanski did when an eye witness saw him with an underaged girl

So did Nairo. Weird how that got thrown out, but ZeRo's entire judgement revolves around that one confession under pressure because his alleged victims managed to record everything but the actual incriminating evidence.

People are still divided on the Nairo case since its basically his word against Zack's, the only thing in his favor is Zack having a worse testimony due to others claiming hes a predator behind the scenes. If there was pictures of Nairo initiating contact with Zack, people wouldn't forgive him, and he would have no case in court.

I'm not judging the case either way, but perhaps we shouldn't immediately come to conclusions about things we aren't privy to in the first place before worrying about whether people are downplaying it or not.

I agree, I only came to a conclusion after seeing the screenshots and his confession.

Once again, no one said anything like that. Pay attention to what is being said before putting words in people's mouths.

I didn't quote anyone, its just that cancel culture is usually applied to political stuff, its like a left wing version of McCarthyism since its usually about people getting fired over something they said years ago that offends modern day woke sensibilities(good example being Esam's boxing ring joke). Its not the same when you apply it to someone guilty of a crime, were Hitler and Joseph Stalin victims of cancel culture?



Really disturbing to see some rando new account insinuating that non-minorities being victimized is less bad. Perhaps they should think before they post and not put words in people's mouth. But that would require them to not do any "navel gazing" of their own.

typo on my part, meant to say minor. Yes pedophilia is a more serious sex crime since its much harder for a minor to defend themselves and the trauma can permanently alter them.

 

[IDKE]

This is about Zero in particular and the cancel culture in the Smash Community in general. Please read to the end. I am not defending what Zero did, but I'm trying to put it into perspective.

People throw the word pedophile around a lot. Whenever someone tries to bring some kind of nuance into the discussion it's there: "You are defending a pedophile". The problem being you don't really seem to know what pedophilia actually is and you don't seem to understand what you are doing throwing the word around. You drain it of its actual meaning.

What Zero did does not constitute pedophilia. That's not up for discussion. At all. What he did constitutes hebephilia. At worst. And even that is stretching it considering how young Zero was at the time. You act like the American views about sex and ages of consent are objective truth; they are not.

There's just no nuance whatsoever. Whether someone 24+ directly and physically overpowered and r**ed a minor or some 19 year old sent some creepy messages to another younger teenager who was 14 years of age doesn't matter. Everyone gets the same treatment.

And that treatment is having everything taken from them with no chance of ever getting it back or being forgiven.

Zero was a young, obese, nerdy and horny virgin who had lived his entire adult life in the smash scene bubble. Moreover, he had emigrated alone from Chile. And when he sent those messages he had been living in Skye Williams house for some time. A place where that type of behavior was normal and; furthermore, a place which housed actual pedophiles. Think about what this means for a bit please. Like really think. If you can stop hating for half a minute or so. These circumstances do not excuse Zero, but they are still relevant.

What do you expect from a guy like that? What right do you have to take everything from him for a few mistakes he commited when he was not really an adult either. How many young, stupid, sexually inept and horny guys have made similar mistakes?

I'm guessing a fairly large percentage, that's what I've taken from the "Me too" movement. And I'm also guessing that some of the people who are hellbent on hating Zero and wanted him jailed are probably not so innocent themselves. We are all just humans, and humans make mistakes, and if we want to make a world that's fit for us to live in we have to be able to forgive and not just punish.

Individuals living in a culture that permits these types of acts cannot be held entirely responsible for acting in accordance with said culture. Dealing with said individual by getting rid of them permanently will not solve the problem. Rather, it is a quick fix done more for purpose of satisfying a kind of bloodlust; thereby, giving birth to another type of culture wherein we can't really talk about these things in a rational manner because of all the emotional extremes (hatred and fear in particular) involved.

A lot of the people making memes and spouting the word Pedophile are quite frankly young and stupid. They are people who enjoy hating because it gives their lives a temporary sense of purpose. It comes naturally to them whereas nuanced thinking does not, that's something far more difficult to do because it requires being able to look past your own initial emotional response to the matter at hand.

But consider this: Zero (and a few others who were similarly treated by the smash community) gave their entire lives to this game. They bet it all on a kind of mad gamble. People like them who are willing to do that are arguably the lifeblood of this entire community. The skills they dedicated their lives to honing are what makes the game exciting to watch.

Smash was their career, their social life etc.. Smash was their everything. And without thinking twice you took it all away. You may as well have put a bag over Zero's head, led him out into some secluded place and then shot him . It would have been quicker and far less painful. Think again about who Zero was when he sent those messages. Where he was at and how he got there. Is the suffering he caused proportional to the punishment he recieved?

I don't think so. And I don't think anyone in this community has any business throwing additional hatred onto Zero. It's just not your job to do that and you should be glad that you don't have blood on your hands.. yet that is. You soon might, and you are lucky you haven't already. Consider Reckfull.

That is all.

 

[IDKE]

I agree #free_zero #save_zero

 

[StoicPhantom]

You can highlight the portion of a post you want to quote with your mouse/finger and select "Quote" in the popup and then click the "Insert Quote" button at the bottom of your reply box. It is rather difficult to quote you in the way that you are posting.

Yeah I know, and my problem is the focus is more on the reaction to ZeRo to the point where people start to exonerate him.

No one is "exonerating" him. Every post except mine has gone with the assumption he is guilty. People are saying the gravity of his allegations does not justify the level of punishment he is getting or saying that viewing this in terms of punishing people is not the right way to look at things.

the screenshots showed him continuing to message a girl after she stated her age even though he feigned ignorance of her age and claimed to have cut off contact from her.

It is not a crime to message an underage girl. The issue is whether he solicited sexual favors from her or not. That was not recorded per the alleged victim's own words. All you have is his "confession" to go off.

Yeah he did, just like Roman Polanski did when an eye witness saw him with an underaged girl

The key being an eyewitness was there to supplement that.

People are still divided on the Nairo case since its basically his word against Zack's, the only thing in his favor is Zack having a worse testimony due to others claiming hes a predator behind the scenes. If there was pictures of Nairo initiating contact with Zack, people wouldn't forgive him, and he would have no case in court.

The difference is that sexual activity was confirmed by both parties to have occurred and the issue is one of intent. In court terms this would be a difficult case to prove as most defense cases rely on denial that the incident occurred in the first place. Nairo "confessing" wouldn't look good in such a scenario.

You still sidestepped that people are treating the two "confessions" differently which was my point.

I agree, I only came to a conclusion after seeing the screenshots and his confession.

Neither of which are incriminating on their own given that the confession may be thrown out under "coercion" and the screenshots aren't indicative of illegal activity on their own. It is then your own bias and opinion and nothing of any substance driving this judgement, which was my entire point.

I didn't quote anyone, its just that cancel culture is usually applied to political stuff, its like a left wing version of McCarthyism since its usually about people getting fired over something they said years ago that offends modern day woke sensibilities(good example being Esam's boxing ring joke). Its not the same when you apply it to someone guilty of a crime, were Hitler and Joseph Stalin victims of cancel culture?

I made a very detailed post on what Cancel Culture actually is in my first post in this topic. It has nothing to do with politics at all nor is it strictly about events that happened years ago or at all. I suggest you go and read it.

Being guilty of a crime means you were tried and convicted. Hitler is not an apt comparison because there are extensive records of his crimes. That is not the case for the individuals named here in question.

typo on my part, meant to say minor. Yes pedophilia is a more serious sex crime since its much harder for a minor to defend themselves and the trauma can permanently alter them.

That is not how trauma works at all and there isn't any real distinction between adults and minors in this regard. "Pedophilia" isn't a crime unto itself either, it's a clinical condition.


Regardless, I'm not here to debate cases I don't have full knowledge of. The conversation was about Cancel Culture being terrible and whether ZeRo got more than was justified. The cases like Nairo I only mentioned as an example of why leaving judgement up to the community is a bad idea due to it not knowing what the **** it is doing.

Trying to play court based on snippets from anonymous "victims" and then sweeping things under the rug when it turns out to be wrong is the issue here. We have actual courts and professional investigators for a reason. Random posters named "BallZ" are not qualified to deal with complex cases nor should "punishment" be decided by anonymous individuals who have no connection or stake in the matter and will not take responsibility or be subject to consequences if their judgement turns out to be wrong.



As a bit of an aside, I am actively disgusted by the people who were gung-ho about destroying ZeRo's life and are now backpedaling when they heard about his attempted suicide. You don't get to orchestrate something like that and then turn around and play the concerned individual that believes everyone should be allowed to live.

There's no going back for someone who invested everything into his persona and made those kind of sacrifices to get to where he was. You are effectively "killing" him by making everything he did in his life pointless. It's not like he can easily just disappear and better himself and live a happy life elsewhere. There's really nothing left for him to do, but acknowledge that everything he did was a waste of time and he has to start completely from scratch if he even can.

I'm not going to fault anyone if they truly believe he is a danger and needs to be isolated, but you can't have your cake and eat it too by trying to absolve yourself of the responsibility of any negative consequences stemming from your judgement. You either "kill" him in the name of "justice" and/or "the greater good" or you compromise and try to find an acceptable way for him to "live" while being respectful of the concerns of the community at large. That is what an actual community would do.

But instead, it seems the community at large was willing to participate when there was glory to be had from dunking on him and canceling and are now attempting push off all responsibility on someone else and slink away now that predictable consequences are forming. What exactly did you expect was going to happen when you completely destroyed the reason for living on an already depressed and suicidal man?

Again, I'm not faulting anyone who truly believes he is a danger to the community. What I am annoyed at are the people who were drunk on justice and treating all this like a game only to hide behind said justice when they started feeling like they went too far and tried to absolve themselves of any responsibility.

And that really is what the crux of this topic is about. A so-called community that pretends to be greatly concerned of "predators" but then immediately dips when it is revealed they might also be "predators" in a different sense. That pretends to care about each other, but then treats each other as disposable when it suits them. "Cancel Culture" is fundamentally about stepping on people to boost your own vanity. Whether or not this was the correct thing to do doesn't really matter, because the "community" was never concerned about any potential victims, but how they themselves relate to all this.


And that's why things will never change. It is not about a few bad apples spoiling the bunch, but the entire bunch being rotten to the core. No one really truly cares about changing things, just ensuring they benefit/aren't harmed by the status quo. Thus "making the community a safer place" is less about concern for potential victims and more about signaling to others that they aren't one of the bad apples. It is an entirely selfish mindset and a community that only cares about itself is never going to be able to change for others.

 

[BallZ]

You can highlight the portion of a post you want to quote with your mouse/finger and select "Quote" in the popup and then click the "Insert Quote" button at the bottom of your reply box. It is rather difficult to quote you in the way that you are posting.


No one is "exonerating" him. Every post except mine has gone with the assumption he is guilty. People are saying the gravity of his allegations does not justify the level of punishment he is getting or saying that viewing this in terms of punishing people is not the right way to look at things.



It is not a crime to message an underage girl. The issue is whether he solicited sexual favors from her or not. That was not recorded per the alleged victim's own words. All you have is his "confession" to go off.



The key being an eyewitness was there to supplement that.



The difference is that sexual activity was confirmed by both parties to have occurred and the issue is one of intent. In court terms this would be a difficult case to prove as most defense cases rely on denial that the incident occurred in the first place. Nairo "confessing" wouldn't look good in such a scenario.

You still sidestepped that people are treating the two "confessions" differently which was my point.



Neither of which are incriminating on their own given that the confession may be thrown out under "coercion" and the screenshots aren't indicative of illegal activity on their own. It is then your own bias and opinion and nothing of any substance driving this judgement, which was my entire point.



I made a very detailed post on what Cancel Culture actually is in my first post in this topic. It has nothing to do with politics at all nor is it strictly about events that happened years ago or at all. I suggest you go and read it.

Being guilty of a crime means you were tried and convicted. Hitler is not an apt comparison because there are extensive records of his crimes. That is not the case for the individuals named here in question.


That is not how trauma works at all and there isn't any real distinction between adults and minors in this regard. "Pedophilia" isn't a crime unto itself either, it's a clinical condition.


Regardless, I'm not here to debate cases I don't have full knowledge of. The conversation was about Cancel Culture being terrible and whether ZeRo got more than was justified. The cases like Nairo I only mentioned as an example of why leaving judgement up to the community is a bad idea due to it not knowing what the **** it is doing.

Trying to play court based on snippets from anonymous "victims" and then sweeping things under the rug when it turns out to be wrong is the issue here. We have actual courts and professional investigators for a reason. Random posters named "BallZ" are not qualified to deal with complex cases nor should "punishment" be decided by anonymous individuals who have no connection or stake in the matter and will not take responsibility or be subject to consequences if their judgement turns out to be wrong.



As a bit of an aside, I am actively disgusted by the people who were gung-ho about destroying ZeRo's life and are now backpedaling when they heard about his attempted suicide. You don't get to orchestrate something like that and then turn around and play the concerned individual that believes everyone should be allowed to live.

There's no going back for someone who invested everything into his persona and made those kind of sacrifices to get to where he was. You are effectively "killing" him by making everything he did in his life pointless. It's not like he can easily just disappear and better himself and live a happy life elsewhere. There's really nothing left for him to do, but acknowledge that everything he did was a waste of time and he has to start completely from scratch if he even can.

I'm not going to fault anyone if they truly believe he is a danger and needs to be isolated, but you can't have your cake and eat it too by trying to absolve yourself of the responsibility of any negative consequences stemming from your judgement. You either "kill" him in the name of "justice" and/or "the greater good" or you compromise and try to find an acceptable way for him to "live" while being respectful of the concerns of the community at large. That is what an actual community would do.

But instead, it seems the community at large was willing to participate when there was glory to be had from dunking on him and canceling and are now attempting push off all responsibility on someone else and slink away now that predictable consequences are forming. What exactly did you expect was going to happen when you completely destroyed the reason for living on an already depressed and suicidal man?

Again, I'm not faulting anyone who truly believes he is a danger to the community. What I am annoyed at are the people who were drunk on justice and treating all this like a game only to hide behind said justice when they started feeling like they went too far and tried to absolve themselves of any responsibility.

And that really is what the crux of this topic is about. A so-called community that pretends to be greatly concerned of "predators" but then immediately dips when it is revealed they might also be "predators" in a different sense. That pretends to care about each other, but then treats each other as disposable when it suits them. "Cancel Culture" is fundamentally about stepping on people to boost your own vanity. Whether or not this was the correct thing to do doesn't really matter, because the "community" was never concerned about any potential victims, but how they themselves relate to all this.


And that's why things will never change. It is not about a few bad apples spoiling the bunch, but the entire bunch being rotten to the core. No one really truly cares about changing things, just ensuring they benefit/aren't harmed by the status quo. Thus "making the community a safer place" is less about concern for potential victims and more about signaling to others that they aren't one of the bad apples. It is an entirely selfish mindset and a community that only cares about itself is never going to be able to change for others.

I don't really feel like doing text wall beam struggles since we would just end up repeating the same talking points over and over. My main point is that Zero is guilty of predatory behavior towards a minor by his own admission. I don't condone the wackos goading him into suicide, but the only future he has realistically is something outside of Smash/content creation, and I think its foolish to think his past can just be swept back under the rug since most people wouldn't feel safe in a community that forgives behavior like his so easily.

He has only himself to blame for his current position. Not exactly smart to devote your whole life to playing a game while developing 0 skills on the side, and then to just throw it all away with such irresponsible behavior.

 

[Sucumbio]

Eh, I think when it happened he didn't forsee 5 years later someone else's actual assault would result in his story coming to light. Many people do stupid in the moment **** with no regard for how it may come back to haunt them. He was excited for the moment... He had an "adorable" fangirl fawning over him, stroking his ego and at a time when he was sexually maturing at a rate obviously surpassing her (as is normal for most 14 year olds). Had someone then said uh dude that's not ok what you're doing I'm sure he'd have stopped and probably apologized profusely but alas he had no such oversight and when they went their separate ways he ended up moving on while Katie obviously couldn't because of how off putting the whole ordeal was. Remember it was another person who lived with him in the frat like environment who made it public and prompted the accuser to come forward. Do I doubt his "confession?" Nope. He dodged a bullet by not being caught by authorities when it actually happened and so there's nothing to gain from admitting his behaviors.

This isn't in any way condoning his actions btw. It's obvious he ****ed up. We reap what we sow and all that. But he should be given another chance to show he's a better person all these years later. I'm almost positive we all do things during our teens that in hindsight is cringe worthy. Holding someone up on such a high platform can only lead to disappointment because there are no true gods among us only people who are committed to hiding the worst parts of ourselves out of shame or fear of reprisal.

 

[BallZ]

Eh, I think when it happened he didn't forsee 5 years later someone else's actual assault would result in his story coming to light. Many people do stupid in the moment **** with no regard for how it may come back to haunt them. He was excited for the moment... He had an "adorable" fangirl fawning over him, stroking his ego and at a time when he was sexually maturing at a rate obviously surpassing her (as is normal for most 14 year olds). Had someone then said uh dude that's not ok what you're doing I'm sure he'd have stopped and probably apologized profusely but alas he had no such oversight and when they went their separate ways he ended up moving on while Katie obviously couldn't because of how off putting the whole ordeal was. Remember it was another person who lived with him in the frat like environment who made it public and prompted the accuser to come forward. Do I doubt his "confession?" Nope. He dodged a bullet by not being caught by authorities when it actually happened and so there's nothing to gain from admitting his behaviors.

This isn't in any way condoning his actions btw. It's obvious he ****ed up. We reap what we sow and all that. But he should be given another chance to show he's a better person all these years later. I'm almost positive we all do things during our teens that in hindsight is cringe worthy. Holding someone up on such a high platform can only lead to disappointment because there are no true gods among us only people who are committed to hiding the worst parts of ourselves out of shame or fear of reprisal.

This is where I have a problem. If he messaged the girl thinking she was 18 or above, thats one thing, but he continued messaging her after she told him she was in the ninth grade, so plausible deniability goes out the window at this point. I cant excuse this as a simple mistake when he was knowingly doing something wrong, and people make it sound like hes Borat or something where hes so clueless about consent laws in different countries that he thinks its normal to sexually message a minor. If he had to hide it, then he knew it was wrong.

I don't think he deserves a chance in the Smash community again, its important to have a zero tolerance policy for this behavior. This doesn't mean his life has to be over, he still has way more opportunities than most to pursue something else at his age with any leftover money he has from his competitive/streaming days.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I think its foolish to think his past can just be swept back under the rug

and people make it sound like hes Borat or something where hes so clueless about consent laws in different countries that he thinks its normal to sexually message a minor

You keep coming at this like we are pretending it didn't happen if we forgive him. If the allegations are true, then that is that. What is being said is that we think there should be a limit to his persecution and that eventually there needs to be a line drawn at how long someone can be held accountable for their actions. While there are probably some things that can never be forgiven, exactly how long ago can something like an unsuccessful attempt to solicit nudes from a fellow teenager be fair game to cancel him? Five years? Ten years? The rest of his life? If ZeRo were to invent a machine to save the planet from climate disaster fifty years from now, is it appropriate cancel him at his awards ceremony for what he did at 19?

Your entire angle seems to be he needs to suffer or somehow the balance of justice will be forever tarnished. That's not a healthy way to look at things at all. It should be instead about whether he presents a danger to the community right now. If ZeRo were to be allowed to create content again would he be endangering other people? The way you are presenting it is more about retribution and satisfying your own self-righteousness for an event you have no ties or connection to.


First off, I hate to break it to the internet (not really), but nineteen-year-olds dating/having sex with fellow teenagers who are underage is not uncommon. You don't suddenly get the keys to maturity and wisdom and have an adult mentality the second you turn eighteen. Maturation is more about environment than anything else and you are still in the same environment with the same life experience and mentality at 18/19 as you were at 15/16. It is not at all uncommon for 18/19/20-year-olds to be dating 14/15/16/17-year-olds from the same community circle.

I have a good friend who started dating a 17-year-old when he was fourteen. That led to lovely age gaps such as 15/18, 16/19, 17/20, and so on. Does that mean she was a predator, he was groomed, and I was an accomplice for condoning/not reporting such a relationship? Should all highschool relationships be broken up/put on hold until the younger one is of age?

Obviously this wasn't a relationship like that, but the point is still the same. If the problem in question is that ZeRo was soliciting minors and that means he's a "pedophile" then I'm going to have to inform you that you would need to put large swaths of society under that label too. I've known many teenagers when I was one that dated/had sex with people in that age range. Even if the law says it is not legal, much like with underage drinking, society isn't as bent out of shape about it as Twitter.

Now that doesn't mean there wasn't an issue with him being pushy about it and if those girls felt uncomfortable then that obviously isn't good. But as Sucumbio alluded to, that is when he needed someone to sit him down and explain to him that what he was doing wasn't okay. Obviously he didn't have that given he was surrounded by questionable people during that time.


IMO I don't think he is a danger to the community at present. There's a large difference between 19 and 25. 19-year-old ZeRo had no obligations or responsibilities outside of playing videogames and he had nothing to lose or aspire to. 25-year-old ZeRo has a business, a hot girlfriend, a demanding hobby in Motocross, and a family to support in Chile. I doubt he even has time to cruise for underage lewds let alone the desire and will for them. I think at the very least a compromise can be made in letting him create content in exchange for being banned from community events he didn't even really want to participate in.

And while you can say that the law is the law, given the complete aversion by the community to involve the law in these matters, I think it is fair to say that this is a social issue within the community. And because of that I can then roll my eyes at the insinuation that not destroying his life would invite a flood of predators and harassment in the community. I think the community does that just fine without ZeRo's help.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think the community does that just fine without ZeRo's help.

This.

Let's be real, at 19 I was a freshman in college and frankly the behaviors he was accused of is par for the course. Geeky video persona aside most males when they hit college age are going to be all about those risque behaviors. That is NOT saying it's ok to incorporate high school freshman into the mix, obviously. But then again while I was more constrained to "IRL" interaction by 2014 Skype is just as social as the old student centers of a university.

I can see how this take may place some blame on the other party. That's not what this is about. It's about understanding that the development of relationships between two people transcends age appropriate social constructs and by and large results in the older party "should have known better." It's just not that simple.

 

[BallZ]

You keep coming at this like we are pretending it didn't happen if we forgive him. If the allegations are true, then that is that. What is being said is that we think there should be a limit to his persecution and that eventually there needs to be a line drawn at how long someone can be held accountable for their actions. While there are probably some things that can never be forgiven, exactly how long ago can something like an unsuccessful attempt to solicit nudes from a fellow teenager be fair game to cancel him? Five years? Ten years? The rest of his life? If ZeRo were to invent a machine to save the planet from climate disaster fifty years from now, is it appropriate cancel him at his awards ceremony for what he did at 19?

Your entire angle seems to be he needs to suffer or somehow the balance of justice will be forever tarnished. That's not a healthy way to look at things at all. It should be instead about whether he presents a danger to the community right now. If ZeRo were to be allowed to create content again would he be endangering other people? The way you are presenting it is more about retribution and satisfying your own self-righteousness for an event you have no ties or connection to.


First off, I hate to break it to the internet (not really), but nineteen-year-olds dating/having sex with fellow teenagers who are underage is not uncommon. You don't suddenly get the keys to maturity and wisdom and have an adult mentality the second you turn eighteen. Maturation is more about environment than anything else and you are still in the same environment with the same life experience and mentality at 18/19 as you were at 15/16. It is not at all uncommon for 18/19/20-year-olds to be dating 14/15/16/17-year-olds from the same community circle.

I have a good friend who started dating a 17-year-old when he was fourteen. That led to lovely age gaps such as 15/18, 16/19, 17/20, and so on. Does that mean she was a predator, he was groomed, and I was an accomplice for condoning/not reporting such a relationship? Should all highschool relationships be broken up/put on hold until the younger one is of age?

Obviously this wasn't a relationship like that, but the point is still the same. If the problem in question is that ZeRo was soliciting minors and that means he's a "pedophile" then I'm going to have to inform you that you would need to put large swaths of society under that label too. I've known many teenagers when I was one that dated/had sex with people in that age range. Even if the law says it is not legal, much like with underage drinking, society isn't as bent out of shape about it as Twitter.

Now that doesn't mean there wasn't an issue with him being pushy about it and if those girls felt uncomfortable then that obviously isn't good. But as Sucumbio alluded to, that is when he needed someone to sit him down and explain to him that what he was doing wasn't okay. Obviously he didn't have that given he was surrounded by questionable people during that time.


IMO I don't think he is a danger to the community at present. There's a large difference between 19 and 25. 19-year-old ZeRo had no obligations or responsibilities outside of playing videogames and he had nothing to lose or aspire to. 25-year-old ZeRo has a business, a hot girlfriend, a demanding hobby in Motocross, and a family to support in Chile. I doubt he even has time to cruise for underage lewds let alone the desire and will for them. I think at the very least a compromise can be made in letting him create content in exchange for being banned from community events he didn't even really want to participate in.

And while you can say that the law is the law, given the complete aversion by the community to involve the law in these matters, I think it is fair to say that this is a social issue within the community. And because of that I can then roll my eyes at the insinuation that not destroying his life would invite a flood of predators and harassment in the community. I think the community does that just fine without ZeRo's help.

The law is the law, your anecdotal evidence doesn't change anything, and Zero being socially awkward at 19 doesn't excuse his behavior. Letting him as well as other confirmed predators back in the community just creates an already worse precedent, the bigger priority should be to prevent people like this from infiltrating the community again.

Its also amusing how the defense for him alternates from "he didn't know her age, it was an accident" to "okay he did know, but he was an awkward weeb".

believe the victims

 

[BallZ]

This.

Let's be real, at 19 I was a freshman in college and frankly the behaviors he was accused of is par for the course. Geeky video persona aside most males when they hit college age are going to be all about those risque behaviors. That is NOT saying it's ok to incorporate high school freshman into the mix, obviously. But then again while I was more constrained to "IRL" interaction by 2014 Skype is just as social as the old student centers of a university.

I can see how this take may place some blame on the other party. That's not what this is about. It's about understanding that the development of relationships between two people transcends age appropriate social constructs and by and large results in the older party "should have known better." It's just not that simple.

Yes, its common for guys in college to take risks when courting a girl, but to say most guys are so desperate at that age that they knowingly pursue 14 year olds is a huge stretch.

It really is simple to understand the situation, just don't go ask underaged girls(or any girl you're not deeply intimate with really) to sext you.

 

[StoicPhantom]

The law is the law,

And while you can say that the law is the law, given the complete aversion by the community to involve the law in these matters, I think it is fair to say that this is a social issue within the community.

Its also amusing how the defense for him alternates from "he didn't know her age, it was an accident" to "okay he did know, but he was an awkward weeb".

...Do you actually read other people's posts or just skim them? Given I didn't say anything like that, either your reading comprehension sucks or you aren't reading them at all.

believe the victims

"Notice me Senpai"

I think it's pretty clear that you aren't even bothering to read the thread and are simply here to force your opinion on others. I don't really do the whole passive-aggressive Twitter thing of cringe arrogance and virtue signaling, so I'm going to bow out here unless something interesting pops up. You've got plenty of material here to pass the time, but I'm not about to waste any more of my time on someone that admits he isn't here for "text wall beam struggles" AKA actual discussion and just wants to regurgitate banal "talking points" he got from Twitter/Reddit/wherever. This is a thread about ZeRo and Cancel Culture that is participated by members of this board. What other people say about the issues in other places has no bearing on what I say. Try actually talking to me if you want me to actually reply from now on.

 

[BallZ]

...Do you actually read other people's posts or just skim them? Given I didn't say anything like that, either your reading comprehension sucks or you aren't reading them at all.

"Notice me Senpai"

I think it's pretty clear that you aren't even bothering to read the thread and are simply here to force your opinion on others. I don't really do the whole passive-aggressive Twitter thing of cringe arrogance and virtue signaling, so I'm going to bow out here unless something interesting pops up. You've got plenty of material here to pass the time, but I'm not about to waste any more of my time on someone that admits he isn't here for "text wall beam struggles" AKA actual discussion and just wants to regurgitate banal "talking points" he got from Twitter/Reddit/wherever. This is a thread about ZeRo and Cancel Culture that is participated by members of this board. What other people say about the issues in other places has no bearing on what I say. Try actually talking to me if you want me to actually reply from now on.

i mean did you not allude to you being fine with statutory **** because you see it as a common thing with teenagers? That seemed to be the basis for your last post, as well as excusing his behavior because he lived with other perverts.

 

[StrangeKitten]

When it comes to punishment, I think rehabilitation should be the goal. And well, ZeRo has admitted his wrongdoings, lost his entire way of living, endured a lot of hate (not completely unwarranted, though clearly it's been taken too far), and is seeking therapy. I think, in this case, justice has been served. While what ZeRo did was wrong, as messed up as this may sound... it was honestly not that bad, imo. I may be singing a different tune had he done worse, but I think the punishment he's faced to this point has fit the crime. I don't think he'll re-offend, or be a threat to anyone other than himself. At this point, I hope he recovers from his suicide attempt, and continues to seek therapy and work on himself.

 

[BallZ]

When it comes to punishment, I think rehabilitation should be the goal. And well, ZeRo has admitted his wrongdoings, lost his entire way of living, endured a lot of hate (not completely unwarranted, though clearly it's been taken too far), and is seeking therapy. I think, in this case, justice has been served. While what ZeRo did was wrong, as messed up as this may sound... it was honestly not that bad, imo. I may be singing a different tune had he done worse, but I think the punishment he's faced to this point has fit the crime. I don't think he'll re-offend, or be a threat to anyone other than himself. At this point, I hope he recovers from his suicide attempt, and continues to seek therapy and work on himself.

I don't think he was the worst offender, that would obviously be the people who engaged in actual intercourse. I just don't think its smart all to bring these people back like nothing happened, rehab isn't a miracle cure, especially considering that sex offenders tend to have a pattern of repeat offenses. Bringing them back would just create a worse precedent that minors are unsafe if predators are forgiven so easily. The biggest priority is making the community safe, not worrying about how much someone ruined their life by being a sex offender.

Permanent ban from the community is the best punishment, and fixing their life is their problem since they ruined it themselves in the first place.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I don't think he was the worst offender, that would obviously be the people who engaged in actual intercourse. I just don't think its smart all to bring these people back like nothing happened, rehab isn't a miracle cure, especially considering that sex offenders tend to have a pattern of repeat offenses. Bringing them back would just create a worse precedent that minors are unsafe if predators are forgiven so easily. The biggest priority is making the community safe, not worrying about how much someone ruined their life by being a sex offender.

Permanent ban from the community is the best punishment, and fixing their life is their problem since they ruined it themselves in the first place.

Oh, well I didn't mean to imply that he should come back. I think it would be a bad look if he was allowed back into tournaments/streams. I don't think he wants to come back, so I don't think we'll have to worry about that.

 

[BallZ]

Oh, well I didn't mean to imply that he should come back. I think it would be a bad look if he was allowed back into tournaments/streams. I don't think he wants to come back, so I don't think we'll have to worry about that.

i agree, sorry for the assumption

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

(Sorry if this is a lot of text) So I just wanna start off by saying Zero of course does not deserve to die. He absolutely does not deserve to get depressed and he didn’t really deserve to lose his job, and everything. But he still did something wrong, and not many people seem to understand what’s wrong with it.

So, relationships between fans and people with a lot of influence are extremely one-sided and can actually have really unhealthy consequences. It’s the same thing with sexual relations, fans will never have any way of knowing how much they mean to their partner. They will never know how their partner will treat them if they don’t consent one day, and they will most likely feel like an afterthought to their partner. Could you imagine being in a relationship like that? I think it’s fine if the relationship has genuinely become more than a “fan, content creator” dynamic (I believe this is how Videogamedunkey for example, met his partner) but in a casual way like what we’ve seen, it’s completely inappropriate.

And this isn’t even bringing up the age gap. Even if the person had lied about their age, Zero should have made 100% sure they were over 18. He should have done everything he could to make sure. Especially given his position of power.

Zero is one of the biggest and most famous Super Smash Bros players so his actions have actual consiquences because they reflect on the whole community. That said, I still do think he should be forgiven. Open communication between him and the community would probably reflect positively.

I would also like to remind everyone that most of the “controversy” came from Zero himself. He seemed to have really taken the guilt to heart and decided very early on to stop making videos, leading to his recent attempted suicide. I don’t even want his videos to return at this point, I just hope his mental state improves. So, he obviously does not deserve this, but his actions still deserve to be called out.

 

[BallZ]

(Sorry if this is a lot of text) So I just wanna start off by saying Zero of course does not deserve to die. He absolutely does not deserve to get depressed and he didn’t really deserve to lose his job, and everything. But he still did something wrong, and not many people seem to understand what’s wrong with it.

So, relationships between fans and people with a lot of influence are extremely one-sided and can actually have really unhealthy consequences. It’s the same thing with sexual relations, fans will never have any way of knowing how much they mean to their partner. They will never know how their partner will treat them if they don’t consent one day, and they will most likely feel like an afterthought to their partner. Could you imagine being in a relationship like that? I think it’s fine if the relationship has genuinely become more than a “fan, content creator” dynamic (I believe this is how Videogamedunkey for example, met his partner) but in a casual way like what we’ve seen, it’s completely inappropriate.

And this isn’t even bringing up the age gap. Even if the person had lied about their age, Zero should have made 100% sure they were over 18. He should have done everything he could to make sure. Especially given his position of power.

Zero is one of the biggest and most famous Super Smash Bros players so his actions have actual consiquences because they reflect on the whole community. That said, I still do think he should be forgiven. Open communication between him and the community would probably reflect positively.

I would also like to remind everyone that most of the “controversy” came from Zero himself. He seemed to have really taken the guilt to heart and decided very early on to stop making videos, leading to his recent attempted suicide. I don’t even want his videos to return at this point, I just hope his mental state improves. So, he obviously does not deserve this, but his actions still deserve to be called out.

I think he left early because he knew it was inevitable since his sponsors cut him off and he was banned from competing and making content on various platforms.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Nobody actually thinks that if Zero or Ally were allowed back they'd be a threat to minors. It wouldn't signal that their behaviors were ok either. That's just some weird assumption. It would signal that cancel culture can go too far though and that ruining peoples lifes and forcing them into exodus isn't a very good solution and we can't have that. It'd be giving up conquered territory.

 

[BallZ]

Nobody actually thinks that if Zero or Ally were allowed back they'd be a threat to minors. It wouldn't signal that their behaviors were ok either. That's just some weird assumption. It would signal that cancel culture can go too far though and that ruining peoples lifes and forcing them into exodus isn't a very good solution and we can't have that. It'd be giving up conquered territory.

Its not about Zero and Ally specifically, its about having standards as a community. If we just forgive their actions like nothing happened, then it creates a standard that enables predatory behavior. Sex offenders should be worried about ruining their lives, we shouldn't be thinking about how to accommodate them instead. Just simply scolding them and telling them theyre wrong isn't a punishment, it seems like a cop out way to just accept their behavior without them having to take responsibility for anything.

Getting kicked out of the community is their own fault, the best way not to get "cancelled" is to just not groom minors. Also weird to bring up Ally as a victim since he actually had sex with a teenager when he was almost 30. Equating this to cancel culture is a lame way to downplay what they did, there is a difference between being outed as a sex offender compared to a twitter mob snitching on you to your boss because you made an edgy joke ten years ago.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Its not about Zero and Ally specifically, its about having standards as a community. If we just forgive their actions like nothing happened, then it creates a standard that enables predatory behavior. Sex offenders should be worried about ruining their lives, we shouldn't be thinking about how to accommodate them instead. Just simply scolding them and telling them theyre wrong isn't a punishment, it seems like a cop out way to just accept their behavior without them having to take responsibility for anything.

Getting kicked out of the community is their own fault, the best way not to get "cancelled" is to just not groom minors. Also weird to bring up Ally as a victim since he actually had sex with a teenager when he was almost 30. Equating this to cancel culture is a lame way to downplay what they did, there is a difference between being outed as a sex offender compared to a twitter mob snitching on you to your boss because you made an edgy joke ten years ago.

Ally and Captain Zack were never physical. They had some kind of romance, which Zack intiated, but both parties say they never had sex. Doubt they even kissed. You shouldn't perpetuate misinformation.

Its unclear to what degree future misdeeds can be prevented with harsh punishments. Most of the people who got outed did what they did knowing full we'll that they'd be screwed if it got out. And they did it anyway. But trying to figure out why all of this could happen in the first place is a lot harder and less satisfying than punishing perpetrators.

And Ally and Zero are not just perpetrators, they are people too, and the smash scene owes it's existence to people like them who were willing to dedicate their lives to the game. They both screwed up. But lots of people screw up. And their misdeeds have been totally blown out of proportion. Neither of them did anything that constitutes pedophilia. Zero was grooming. Ally didn't even do that. I think they should've been banned for 1-2 years. Whereas people like D1, Keitaro and Cinnpie who commited far worse crimes should be banned for life. Nevertheless, I do understand that it's simply not possible for them to ever come back the way things are now.

Cancel Culture is a lot of things. Such as punishing all offenses the same irregardless of how serious they are and not considering circumstances at all. And it's misusing words and terms and phrasing things to make them sound worse than they actually are. For example by calling stuff pedophilia when it isn't. It's also not bothering to get facts straight and spreading misinformation. And hastily banning players who didn't do anything wrong. And much more.

I mean you did some of this with your post. Saying Ally had sex with a teenager when he was almost 30. Why not just write their actual ages? And why the whole sex part when that never happened?