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Hey GnW mains, @
jtm94
posted this on reddit, following which he, myself, and a few others had a discussion addressing the way up-b and his throws work. I did a bunch of lab work on it, it's not ultra comprehensive since it only includes one character at one percent, but you can use the info to mentally extrapolate some approximations for other characters at other numbers, or use it to improve your own lab work/methods. Here's a copy paste from the reddit thread:
Alright, so here's the details of the lab work I just did:
I set the opposing character to GnW as you did in your example gify. I set his percent to 50 because I forgot what percent you used. Low KBG on the throws and up-b means it shouldn't really matter.
I'll probably refer to the thrown GnW as the defender and the throwing GnW as the attacker.
All GnW's combo throws appear to have only 7 frames endlag on himself (this is absurd btw, I know it's because GnW is light, but even throwing bowser should only have I think 15 frames endlag. That's less than either of sheik's throws on any character).
Keep in mind, I only looked at throw follow-ups into up-b. Use your intuition/already existing knowledge to evaluate how these DIs are affected by GnW's other options out of his throws.
Lastly, good SDI away can actually get you out of the "guaranteed" follow-ups GnW has out of his up-b. This actually applies for a lot of things in the game. Unfortunately, because SDI must occur during hitlag and not after like DI, there is less available reaction time, and GnW's up-b has very little hitlag and comes out very quickly, meaning the window is small and the reaction time is near impossible. It would require either a read or good option selecting. Probably both depending on the situation.
*For uthrow:
No matter the DI, GnW can technically get off an up-b aimed at the opposing GnW and avoid the reverse hit, such that a follow-up is guaranteed regardless of of DI on the up-b hit. If the defender DIs to the left or right, the attacker can simply up-b on reaction to the DI in the direction of the defender. It's actually better to wait for reaction time in this case than to read and up-b as soon as possible (even if the read is correct). So you give your reaction time around 20 frames to properly decide which direction the DI'd, and then up-b that direction. However, if they don't DI the uthrow, the only way to get an up-b follow up towards them with the forward hit is to dash forward for about 20 frames as soon as the throw ends, then up-b in reverse towards them. While this technically guarantees you would get a follow-up yet again off no DI on the uthrow, this requires impossible reaction time since you have to input the dash within a few frames of the IASA of the uthrow in order to reach the proper distance and have time to up-b. If you up-b straight up, and they DI away, you don't get a follow-up. However, you can force even this upwards DI into a 50/50 mix-up. Since they must DI the up-b away to escape the follow-up, which way "away" is depends on which side they are hit on. The attacker can therefore either up-b straight up into the opponent, or dash back very briefly and then up-b straight up, hitting the defender from the opposite side. These require opposite directions of DI from the defender to escape a follow-up, and there is very little reaction time.
Therefore, assuming the GnW has proper knowledge of his mix-up options on no-DI uthrow, uthrow->up-b as a whole, with random DI of left, right, and no DI gives you a 1/6th chance of escape. Since it's all mix-ups, the DI would effectively be random. Since you don't know what throw GnW is doing, this is as good as it gets off his uthrow for the defender, without a read on the throw. No DI for uthrow is gives the best chance of escape, a 50/50.
*For fthrow:
It appears that his throws have angles perfectly designed for each other. DIing fthrow towards the attacker gives the same angle and location as no DI on uthrow. Hence the 50/50 that applies for no DI on uthrow applies for DI in on fthrow. No DI on fthrow gives an easy reaction to up-b towards the defender and get a guaranteed follow-up. DIing fthrow forward requires the attacker to have impossible reaction time and dash forward on his first actionable frame, and then up-b into the defender. Even when this is done, it appears something about the different trajectory makes a follow-up after the up-b (if the defender DI's it away) not guaranteed.
Therefore, the only way to escape an up-b into a follow-up from fthrow is to DI forward, or to guess correctly on the DI-in mix-up. With random DI either left, right, or none at each point, your chance of escape is 1/2
*For bthrow: Bthrow is basically fthrow in reverse, tho the release point is on the side of the attacking GnW that he is throwing you to. Nonetheless, the same DIs mostly apply to bthrow that apply to fthrow, but in reverse.
It's important to note there are a lot more possibilities than I actually tested for, and the increase in possibilities only makes it better for the attacker. For example, off an fthrow, the attacking GnW could dash forward instantly without waiting for their reaction, allowing them to use a fair to follow-up on DI away once they have had adequate reaction time, or if the opponent DIs in they would then be in the appropriate position to up-b towards the opponent and get the forwards hit, and if the defender didn't DI at all the would be almost directly above the attacker, giving either a follow-up with almost any aerial, or the 50/50 up-b mix-up I described earlier.
TL;DR? GnW's throws are absolutely ****ing next level bonkers, up-b is even more bonkers still, and GnW mains need to stop pretending like there's some kind of special secret to avoiding his throw combos when doing it consistently either requires reading a bad GnW that isn't mixing up their throws/spacing up-b well, or a lifetime's worth of luck concentrated into DIing three throws of one character in one mod of one game of one series of video game. You don't get any luck anywhere else ever again. None. And then you might get out of GnW's throw combos about half the time.
jtm94
posted this on reddit, following which he, myself, and a few others had a discussion addressing the way up-b and his throws work. I did a bunch of lab work on it, it's not ultra comprehensive since it only includes one character at one percent, but you can use the info to mentally extrapolate some approximations for other characters at other numbers, or use it to improve your own lab work/methods. Here's a copy paste from the reddit thread:Alright, so here's the details of the lab work I just did:
I set the opposing character to GnW as you did in your example gify. I set his percent to 50 because I forgot what percent you used. Low KBG on the throws and up-b means it shouldn't really matter.
I'll probably refer to the thrown GnW as the defender and the throwing GnW as the attacker.
All GnW's combo throws appear to have only 7 frames endlag on himself (this is absurd btw, I know it's because GnW is light, but even throwing bowser should only have I think 15 frames endlag. That's less than either of sheik's throws on any character).
Keep in mind, I only looked at throw follow-ups into up-b. Use your intuition/already existing knowledge to evaluate how these DIs are affected by GnW's other options out of his throws.
Lastly, good SDI away can actually get you out of the "guaranteed" follow-ups GnW has out of his up-b. This actually applies for a lot of things in the game. Unfortunately, because SDI must occur during hitlag and not after like DI, there is less available reaction time, and GnW's up-b has very little hitlag and comes out very quickly, meaning the window is small and the reaction time is near impossible. It would require either a read or good option selecting. Probably both depending on the situation.
*For uthrow:
No matter the DI, GnW can technically get off an up-b aimed at the opposing GnW and avoid the reverse hit, such that a follow-up is guaranteed regardless of of DI on the up-b hit. If the defender DIs to the left or right, the attacker can simply up-b on reaction to the DI in the direction of the defender. It's actually better to wait for reaction time in this case than to read and up-b as soon as possible (even if the read is correct). So you give your reaction time around 20 frames to properly decide which direction the DI'd, and then up-b that direction. However, if they don't DI the uthrow, the only way to get an up-b follow up towards them with the forward hit is to dash forward for about 20 frames as soon as the throw ends, then up-b in reverse towards them. While this technically guarantees you would get a follow-up yet again off no DI on the uthrow, this requires impossible reaction time since you have to input the dash within a few frames of the IASA of the uthrow in order to reach the proper distance and have time to up-b. If you up-b straight up, and they DI away, you don't get a follow-up. However, you can force even this upwards DI into a 50/50 mix-up. Since they must DI the up-b away to escape the follow-up, which way "away" is depends on which side they are hit on. The attacker can therefore either up-b straight up into the opponent, or dash back very briefly and then up-b straight up, hitting the defender from the opposite side. These require opposite directions of DI from the defender to escape a follow-up, and there is very little reaction time.
Therefore, assuming the GnW has proper knowledge of his mix-up options on no-DI uthrow, uthrow->up-b as a whole, with random DI of left, right, and no DI gives you a 1/6th chance of escape. Since it's all mix-ups, the DI would effectively be random. Since you don't know what throw GnW is doing, this is as good as it gets off his uthrow for the defender, without a read on the throw. No DI for uthrow is gives the best chance of escape, a 50/50.
*For fthrow:
It appears that his throws have angles perfectly designed for each other. DIing fthrow towards the attacker gives the same angle and location as no DI on uthrow. Hence the 50/50 that applies for no DI on uthrow applies for DI in on fthrow. No DI on fthrow gives an easy reaction to up-b towards the defender and get a guaranteed follow-up. DIing fthrow forward requires the attacker to have impossible reaction time and dash forward on his first actionable frame, and then up-b into the defender. Even when this is done, it appears something about the different trajectory makes a follow-up after the up-b (if the defender DI's it away) not guaranteed.
Therefore, the only way to escape an up-b into a follow-up from fthrow is to DI forward, or to guess correctly on the DI-in mix-up. With random DI either left, right, or none at each point, your chance of escape is 1/2
*For bthrow: Bthrow is basically fthrow in reverse, tho the release point is on the side of the attacking GnW that he is throwing you to. Nonetheless, the same DIs mostly apply to bthrow that apply to fthrow, but in reverse.
It's important to note there are a lot more possibilities than I actually tested for, and the increase in possibilities only makes it better for the attacker. For example, off an fthrow, the attacking GnW could dash forward instantly without waiting for their reaction, allowing them to use a fair to follow-up on DI away once they have had adequate reaction time, or if the opponent DIs in they would then be in the appropriate position to up-b towards the opponent and get the forwards hit, and if the defender didn't DI at all the would be almost directly above the attacker, giving either a follow-up with almost any aerial, or the 50/50 up-b mix-up I described earlier.
TL;DR? GnW's throws are absolutely ****ing next level bonkers, up-b is even more bonkers still, and GnW mains need to stop pretending like there's some kind of special secret to avoiding his throw combos when doing it consistently either requires reading a bad GnW that isn't mixing up their throws/spacing up-b well, or a lifetime's worth of luck concentrated into DIing three throws of one character in one mod of one game of one series of video game. You don't get any luck anywhere else ever again. None. And then you might get out of GnW's throw combos about half the time.
