About edge stalling in melee

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#1
I searched around for some answers but I thought the question could be answered much easier like this..

I know some (near) failproof edge stalling tactics exist in melee, for example the spacies' illusion/fire stall, and sheik's shino stall, so how come problems with stalling had never affected the community as much as brawl?

I'm pretty new to the melee community, so it is more than likely that the problem has been acknowledged and noted already, so pardon my ignorance :|

so basically, what is the difference between edge stalling in melee and edge stalling in brawl?
 

Fletch

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#2
I know some (near) failproof edge stalling tactics exist in melee, for example the spacies' illusion/fire stall, and sheik's shino stall, so how come problems with stalling had never affected the community as much as brawl?
Because Melee doesn't suck.

But seriously, there are ways around it, and if you do it indefinitely, it's considered stalling, which is banned. Not to mention it is really hard with most characters to do perfectly.
 

Jihnsius

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#3
This is also a topic in which I had a bit of interest, but never saw covered in much detail. I'll do my best to clear up my beliefs.

I recall hearing a while ago that the only character that can truly infinitely rebuffer invincibility frames in Melee is Mewtwo, and most characters that do have a ledgestall have a decent window in which they're not invincible and can be hit out of it easily.

I think the only reason it's been considered as useful in Brawl is the instant sweetspot function, which makes it nearly impossible to hit you while you're grabbing (invincible,) dropping (too low to be hit,) and up-Bing (instant sweetspot to invincibility while possibly hitting anyone by the edge.)

As for Melee, you're invincible for a set amount of frames after you grab the ledge, even after you let go (which can be done instantly,) but you can't instant sweetspot, which adds a lot of time in which the enemy can hit you out of your up-B attempt (charging with spacies,) or ledgehog you when you drop down to go for the sweetspot (most others.) In the case of Mewtwo, his up-B not only starts very quickly, but also will put you right in the sweetspot area almost immediately after while still utilizing the invincibility frames from dropping the ledge immediately after grabbing it.

Not to mention Brawl is less combo oriented than Melee due to the lack of hitstun, and thus reduced to barely more than a hit and run game. Add a very fast character that can rack up damage quite well in the air, has a ton of jumps to recover with if he's hit out of his first, and, easily the most important, who's best killing attack is his up-B, ledgestalling seems like a very viable offensive (and defensive) option. Very little of that exists in Melee and most killing blows are done out of combo rather than single hits, let alone aerial attacks, so if it were to be done it'd be considered stalling.
 

Jihnsius

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#5
Ganon has 2 invincible ledgestalls in melee lol
The only one I can think of is the simple drop doublejump rebuffer, in which case I don't think the invincibility frames last the entire time and he can be hit out of his doublejump shortly before regrabbing.
 

-ACE-

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#6
Reverse ledgedash fastfall regrab. It's pretty sick

and the way you're describing does gain invincibility. it's possible to do it at brinstar while in the lava.
 

Skler

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#7
I'd like to see somebody capable of ledgestalling for 8 minutes with any character. It's probably easiest to do for a long time with Sheik (anyone can do her infinite stall pretty easily), but she can get hogged and die. Ganon can do it really well, but it wouldn't be that easy to keep up for as long as it takes. Fox/Falco are too difficult, but I'm also really bad at tech skill. I hear Bowser has a pretty easy one too, but you have to get a lead with Bowser first, making it the hardest one.

In Brawl it's really easy to stall and really easy to hit people who try to stop you. This isn't the case in Melee, it's at least semi-difficult to stall that long.

Jigglypuff is my personal vote for "best non-stalling ledge stall tactic" in Melee, and it's still preventable by a character with projectiles/high priority. Look at Puff in teams when her teammate dies, she just floats on over to the edge and starts kicking people in the face. Obnoxious, but not unbeatable.
 

KevinM

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#8
Hi I'm Skler and I don't go to mass madness and now I'm trashing Bowser.

Oh sup not friend anymore.

Jiggs on edge game is the best for stalling for serious.
 
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#9
The only one I can think of is the simple drop doublejump rebuffer, in which case I don't think the invincibility frames last the entire time and he can be hit out of his doublejump shortly before regrabbing.
False. I'm fairly certain that these have been tested in the middle of Brinstar's lava as the stage is submerged. Ganon can stay in the lava while on the ledge and not get hit if he keeps refreshing invuln by just drop doublejumping.
 

Winston

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#10
Ganon and Sheik for starters have edge stalls that make them invincible the whole time.

However, the other character is still usually able to steal the edge in some way.

mew2king once claimed that ledge stalling is broken and should be banned, but whether because it's not practical or because nobody really wants to stalling hardcore in tourneys, it hasn't been a problem yet.
 

Pi

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#11
also stalling w/ puffs rising pound is banned as well
I'm not sure the limit
Melee is just a game that it seems when you get to a high level of play you actually want to PLAY
I know it sounds crazy, but it seems to be true
 

Proverbs

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#12
Uh...I think it hasn't affected the Melee community because no one's stupid enough to try ledgehopping the entire match. Even if it worked you'd still be a moron.
 

Ballistics

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#13
all the ledgehops that keep you invincible can be stopped by the opponent grabbing the ledge while you are stalling

This is probably true in brawl too but I think the main difference is that brawl matches are really long, so running the clock out using the ledge seems to be a good idea. However melee matches are really short, so if you tried to stall for 8 minutes using the ledge you'd probably get punched in the face in real life. Noone really wants a match to last that long.
 

Hazygoose

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#15
like people have siad, the average melee match doesn't last close to half of the time limit, unlike brawl. so the amount of time someone would have to be stalling is ridiculous. also unlike brawl, if you mess up a ledge stall you can be punished pretty badly. ganon's double jump ledgestall and sheik's shino ledgestall can both be edgehogged if timed correctly, forcing them to up+ onto the stage, which sucks pretty hardcore for both of them. in brawl, if you plank all day and someone edgehogs you, you knock them off the ledge or at least miss the auto sweet spot and go right onto the stage getting hit probably once due to brawl's lack of hitstun.

so yeah...with that combined it's pretty obvious why ledge invincibility tactics aren't and can't be abused to the same degree. plus, when you can 0-death combo in a game, who would want to up+b all day?
 

#HBC | Mac

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#16
Reverse ledgedash fastfall regrab. It's pretty sick
wtf, this works? that is pretty amazing.

and I think jiggs can plank very similarly to MK in brawl. edit: I didn't read the rest of the thread, apparently people brought this up already.
 

Skler

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#18
Hi I'm Skler and I don't go to mass madness and now I'm trashing Bowser.

Oh sup not friend anymore.

Jiggs on edge game is the best for stalling for serious.
Think of it as me praising Bowser players instead of trashing Bowser.

Also think of it as me making our next meeting that much more amazing instead of not going to mass madness.

I miss you :(
 
Joined
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#19
thanks for the replies

pretty interesting to see the stalling mindset does not carry over to melee.. I'm beginning to think of a couple of reasons for that, beyond game mechanics :|
 

PEEF!

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#20
Melee players don't do it. #1 reason right there. The community is...much much different.

We have never really had to worry about it, and I don't think we ever will.
 

1048576

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#21
Two reasons:

1.) In melee, it's sometimes a good strategy to leave the ledge and approach. You are more likely to add percent then lose percent. This is almost never the case in brawl.

2.) We have wavedashing, so grabbing the ledge out from under a staller is much safer. Also, due to the increased fall speed, if you surprise a ledgestaller in this fashion, he may fall too far to safely double jump back to the level and have to use an up-B recovery, which will be extremely laggy and punishable as he lands back on the stage.
 

TPoint1BUA

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#22
Magus said:
Invincibility from ledge (begins at start of ledge grab) = 37 frames

Ledge hold waiting period before able to let go = 8 frames
Minimum ledge regrab waiting period from letting go of ledge(all characters) = 29 frames

8 + 29 = 37
0 frame room for error for all stalls without invincibility on the up-b to stay completely invincible
Must hit to let go on the 8th frame (to be off of it on the 9th) of holding the ledge (0.1333... seconds)


LHWL = Ledge-hop -> Waveland back towards edge -> fastfall -> regrab
Jump = drop -> FF -> DJ -> regrab
Bowser's ledge attack stall is on fourside or the rock form of Poke Stadium

(Anything over 37 is not an infinite stall without up-b invincibility)

Ganon : jump=37, LHWL regrab=37
Falcon : jump=40, LHWL regrab=37
Zelda : up-b=37
Sheik : Dur Dedurr. *****' 10 frames out of 37 room for error >_>
Bowser : jump=37, LHWL regrab=43, ledge attack with fast fall regrab=35 (39 non-FFed)
Mewtwo : double-jump to ledgecancelled up-b=47 total minimum(invincible from up-b as soon as ~29), up-b=37
Pikachu : double-jump to ledgecancelled up-b=37, up-b=37
Pichu : ? (probably same as pikachu)
Fox : up-b=37, over-b=38
Falco : up-b=37, over-b=37

Jiggs : LHWL regrab=41, ledgehop to FF f-air=50
Magus wins.
 
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