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Data Zelda’s Smash Ultimate Moveset /Move Viability Discussion: Phantom Slash = Huge Neutral Buff

Katy Parry

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Another stage :surprised:? My only complaint about all these stages is that it seems pretty hard to control which one comes out, seems like you have some small windows to release the button with a low-key visual cue all in all...But the move is getting better and better :).
Actually, the longer you charge, the better the hit will be range wise... it’s meant so if you’re stuck charging and someone comes out at you, you have increasingly better range the longer you’ve devoted to the charge.
 

Kyle B

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Actually, the longer you charge, the better the hit will be range wise... it’s meant so if you’re stuck charging and someone comes out at you, you have increasingly better range the longer you’ve devoted to the charge.
I meant the timing would be hard to master since the visual cue is minimal but something like 1->2 is really fast in charge and have slight differences in spacing that would be important to nail or they whiff (thankfully we seem to have minimal end lag so whiffing is not that bad unless you are against a Shiek or Marth which might just cost you 20%).
For instance, stage 1 to 2 is like missing 1 hand, and it's such a small difference that I feel I would have to be paying quite a lot of attention to catch in play and act quick enough to prevent stage 1/2 from coming out (which could matter if they start ducking, pending on stage 2's hitbox). It could just not matter on whether which one comes out in the low stages, or it could become a key tool in our spacing and defense.
I just feel more clarity is needed on stage transition because the small parts and shakes are hard to track imo. And in the case of fast characters which Zelda has the most issues with, the kick coming out or the punch coming out could mean the difference between eating an aerial move or knocking them away.
 
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Fortress

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How is that low key confirmed as a bug? They would have to have intentionally made new data for the characters stage collision boxes to detect other characters as a “wall”.

Mark my words, it will stay. It Is just another new mechanic that forces stage control. In any other fighting game you cannot run through your opponent. You walk around them, or jump around them, or hell be like Link in Soul Calibur and slide under their legs. It doesn’t make sense. It is clearly intentional, they’ve even show Marth on Treehouse being able to not run past Donkey Kong, like, on purpose... if anything, maybe this is another mechanic buff overall. This prevents losing stage control. You don’t work as hard zoning because they can’t run past you if you’re grounded. Allows you to call out jumps, or don’t call it out and punish etc. but a bug of this....um, creation...that affects every character wouldn’t have made in this far into the development of the game. Sakurai wouldn’t have not noticed that. Maybe wavedashing not working correctly, and bayou witch twist still not having increased KBG the last hit (so it doesn’t always combo into itself or anything rather) yeah those are glitches.
Sakurai literally said it was a bug.
 

KlicKlac

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Her dair now has 2 kicks.
Edit: looks like the first sparkle is just a visual thing, but it's way more noticable now

 
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BJN39

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Her dair now has 2 kicks.

It actually does not.

That large spark just confuses but it’s only one hit. There is at least one or two vids where it clearly only hits once (on block and on hit)

It has had that flash since at least Smash 4. It’s just to look dramatic I guess
 

KlicKlac

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It actually does not.

That large spark just confuses but it’s only one hit. There is at least one or two vids where it clearly only hits once (on block and on hit)

It has had that flash since at least Smash 4. It’s just to look dramatic I guess
That's really confusing lol. When I slow down the video, it looks like Zelda does kick up and produce the first sparkle, and then kick out her other leg. I guess the first sparkle is for show, but I'll look for more dair footage.
 

Katy Parry

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Eh, who knows. It really hurt Fox in the demo, but I'm glad that it's getting fixed.
Thanks for clarifying by the way.

That double kick thing is Trippy. I guess his makes the move more powerful, because she can either nair or dair for the mix up
 

Katy Parry

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So from what I’ve gathered, zeldas jab ifnisher kills pikachu at 130off the side of battlefield

Well, at least we have a quick ass potential kill string
 

GreyFox86

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That's great to hear! I am seriously loving everything new you guys are finding. Makes me hopeful about her! <3
 

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From browsing this thread as well as the SmashWiki, it does make me hopeful that they are addressing some of the issues that made Zelda a bad character from the get go. Looking at some footage, she does seem a little more mobile, but I can't tell if that's due to character changes or Ultimate's physics.
 

Kyle B

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Hey guys, while talking on another thread topic I was doing some more digging about lightning kick and found something interesting...
So while our E3 version seemed to be doing a range of 15-30% The Japanese version was always doing 21.
I'm copying the video stuff from that post so you guys can look. Now I'm wondering what else could be different between the 2 versions...
at 0:46 Lightning kick does 53.5-74.5 (21), 1:36 sweet spot does 70.8-91.8 (21), 2:38 lightning kick does...21 again?
Huh maybe it was a bug in the E3 version...maybe the scaling was messing up...on this version it seems to only do 21 with a sweet spot...
Another video to see, perhaps our version was just messed up (or one of them is a previous build)
7:16 the sun hit at the exact same time so I can't get an exact damage, 8:53 76.5-97.5 (21)
So what is your take on this? I'm more inclined to go with the 21 damage only version rather than the range of 15-30. Though I'm kinda sad :(
But now I wonder how different the 2 versions really are....or if this was just an isolated bug...
 

Katy Parry

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Hey guys, while talking on another thread topic I was doing some more digging about lightning kick and found something interesting...
So while our E3 version seemed to be doing a range of 15-30% The Japanese version was always doing 21.
I'm copying the video stuff from that post so you guys can look. Now I'm wondering what else could be different between the 2 versions...
at 0:46 Lightning kick does 53.5-74.5 (21), 1:36 sweet spot does 70.8-91.8 (21), 2:38 lightning kick does...21 again?
Huh maybe it was a bug in the E3 version...maybe the scaling was messing up...on this version it seems to only do 21 with a sweet spot...
Another video to see, perhaps our version was just messed up (or one of them is a previous build)
7:16 the sun hit at the exact same time so I can't get an exact damage, 8:53 76.5-97.5 (21)
So what is your take on this? I'm more inclined to go with the 21 damage only version rather than the range of 15-30. Though I'm kinda sad :(
But now I wonder how different the 2 versions really are....or if this was just an isolated bug...
As long as it has an easier sweet spot to land, which it looked to still be that way, 21 damage is kind of awesome. It’s one more damage than I’m used to in Melee ;P
 

KlicKlac

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I hope we get more people testing out our rapid jab at CEO as a kill move. It may appear esam was DI'ing badly when rapid jab killed his pikachu at 120.
The jab finisher definitely sends them farther than jab in smash 4.
Jab might become one of our best kill moves.
 

GreyFox86

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I wonder if the attack decay is still a thing on here, if so this would be saved as a for sure kill move.
 

Rickster

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Killing potential aside, the angle is gonna be really good for setting up edgeguards and putting the opponent in a bad spot in general
 

NintendoKnight

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How is that low key confirmed as a bug? They would have to have intentionally made new data for the characters stage collision boxes to detect other characters as a “wall”.

Mark my words, it will stay. It Is just another new mechanic that forces stage control. In any other fighting game you cannot run through your opponent. You walk around them, or jump around them, or hell be like Link in Soul Calibur and slide under their legs. It doesn’t make sense. It is clearly intentional, they’ve even show Marth on Treehouse being able to not run past Donkey Kong, like, on purpose... if anything, maybe this is another mechanic buff overall. This prevents losing stage control. You don’t work as hard zoning because they can’t run past you if you’re grounded. Allows you to call out jumps, or don’t call it out and punish etc. but a bug of this....um, creation...that affects every character wouldn’t have made in this far into the development of the game. Sakurai wouldn’t have not noticed that. Maybe wavedashing not working correctly, and bayou witch twist still not having increased KBG the last hit (so it doesn’t always combo into itself or anything rather) yeah those are glitches.
That... is a very good point... a good few points, actually. I hadn't thought of this. However, with all the feedback from pro players they're asking for, this might change regardless.

However, if it's entirely intentional, then this makes Shield Break punishes pretty much certain death. Also, no more run past to pivot grab setups.

On the plus side, however, it adds a strong sense of being a solid object in the game world. They're not this gelatinous ectoplasm that they've always been in previous Smashes where each character can fade through each other like some sort of intangible ghost; they are solid objects now. Walls to prevent forward movement.

I can imagine Zelda having an immense shield break punish from this now.

Break Shield > Zelda pushes victim to the edge of stage > Zelda fully charges Phantom > Zelda runs and jumps past victim while Phantom waits > Zelda is now placed over the void for the setup > Phantom dashes forward and launches the victim > Zelda meteor smashes victim into oblivion with down air > PROFIT.

In regards to it being a bug, I had assumed the statement in question was specifically made towards the Fox Illusion stopping on shields.
 
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Katy Parry

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That... is a very good point... a good few points, actually. I hadn't thought of this. However, with all the feedback from pro players they're asking for, this might change regardless.

However, if it's entirely intentional, then this makes Shield Break punishes pretty much certain death. Also, no more run past to pivot grab setups.

On the plus side, however, it adds a strong sense of being a solid object in the game world. They're not this gelatinous ectoplasm that they've always been in previous Smashes where each character can fade through each other like some sort of intangible ghost; they are solid objects now. Walls to prevent forward movement.

I can imagine Zelda having an immense shield break punish from this now.

Break Shield > Zelda pushes victim to the edge of stage > Zelda fully charges Phantom > Zelda runs and jumps past victim while Phantom waits > Zelda is now placed over the void for the setup > Phantom dashes forward and launches the victim > Zelda meteor smashes victim into oblivion with down air > PROFIT.

In regards to it being a bug, I had assumed the statement in question was specifically made towards the Fox Illusion stopping on shields.
You are amazing. Yes. Exactly.

So if Zelda gets a fully charged Phantom in this at least new game least, at lower percents a Phantom read is like, an instant KO, sets up for a dair punish or an offstage chase situation. Zelda is top tier, she’s really a much bigger wall than she has ever been, with all these new tools at her disposal.

Zelda down throw nair Chase sitch could lead into in

It reminds me of Dragon fighter, sakurai’s answer to street fighter. Sakurai got stuck with Nintendo and erased his idea. Got dorky kid friendly characters and made a fun little parody out of it to me, almost. The idea of a fighter was silly for Nintendo characters so it was cool. But then he made another game, still fresh off of Dragon fighter in disguise success, and was focused super hard on Melee. Super technical. Super smash. lel. The idea of forcing each other from a start point to finish point but making you constantly be deciding where to aim your “racket” (the character) and the “ball” is your opponent. This concept is so much more like tennis, when you think about it. Rock Paper Scissors.

Look at this Smash 4 clip.

The Zelda BTURNS Phantom in an opportunist fashion, capitalizing on the moves extended reach and it improves the moves uses immensely. Since we have the mix up of getting out a frame trap now, players are under more “pressure” that she can potential be setting up for something even crazier.



In the previous gif of Ultimate Zelda, she either charges phantom fully( immediately fastest input) and covers them jumping out hitstun. So your mix up game in neuttral mixes up her game and buff her zone archetype incredibly.


So at meta, players hit by a jab will have to DI away from the possible phantom coverage, before it comes out. Then you can start charging after jab and then cancel it by baiting them and punish them for rushin in on you.

And by the looks of it, a well timed farores could punish after that Jab too.

It just depends on percent and reading their DI.
 
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Freelance Spy

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I wonder if the attack decay is still a thing on here, if so this would be saved as a for sure kill move.
You can refresh it by using 9 moves. So Jab should be used in early % combos and after you hit the 70% range you can try to save it. Then again, if you have to jab then do it. It being slightly more stale is better than letting people get in on you.
 

KlicKlac

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So Zelda's dair seems to have little lag now. Wishful thinking, but would be neat if Zelda could actually pressure with falling dair into quick moves like our new jab, for instance.


 

Freelance Spy

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So Zelda's dair seems to have little lag now. Wishful thinking, but would be neat if Zelda could actually pressure with falling dair into quick moves like our new jab, for instance.


It looks like Dair to Dsmash is true, I thought it was when I initially saw it, but you can see easily with this gif that cloud is still in hitstun.

ALSO, Zelda dair looks like it beat out cloud ftilt or side b.

This game is insane.
 
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Katy Parry

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Just wanted to post this in here as well, her jab looks a lot more useful the more I watch this gif.
 

Katy Parry

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Whoa, so just noticed this about a Phantom.

Looks like it takes priority and will clang but win the trade.

 

Katy Parry

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I don't play Sm4sh, does it just get stuffed by attacks in that game?
For what I understand if you’re too close it will just go right through your enemy. Now since it’s behind her, it seems to cover her options better.
Not only that, but hitting the phantom I’m almost certain cancels the attack out, and of course killing it removes it for 12 seconds, literally a useless ability
 

Rickster

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IIRC the Phantom in Smash 4 can also beat out moves and still produce a hitbox (like Jigglypuff's dash attack), but it had so little HP it usually was destroyed before the hitbox came out

I think this property was named "trample" or something like that
 
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KlicKlac

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Whoa, so just noticed this about a Phantom.

Looks like it takes priority and will clang but win the trade.

This is neat. Any Zelda players at CEO really need to mess around as much as they can with the phantom. We need to verify some crucial phantom properties - does it still slow down opponents that go through it? How much health does it have? Is it really destroyed in one hit when it's building up? How soon can Zelda make another phantom after it's destroyed? How are the windbox properties now? Does it hit below the stage? Can it semi-spike? Is Zelda stuck firing a phantom when she starts the charge? Can you cancel out of the animation? How is the knockback of each stage? How is the knockback when the opponent is at high percents? What's the priority of the sword swing?

So much to test!
 

Musha4DaWin

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So, is Zelda good now or what? I'm hoping she is, since the last time any tier list thought Zelda was a good character, it was early Melee. She's been one of my mains since Brawl, and it has broken my teeny little heart that she sucks every time. So, is she gonna be good or nah?
 

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This is neat. Any Zelda players at CEO really need to mess around as much as they can with the phantom. We need to verify some crucial phantom properties - does it still slow down opponents that go through it? How much health does it have? Is it really destroyed in one hit when it's building up? How soon can Zelda make another phantom after it's destroyed? How are the windbox properties now? Does it hit below the stage? Can it semi-spike? Is Zelda stuck firing a phantom when she starts the charge? Can you cancel out of the animation? How is the knockback of each stage? How is the knockback when the opponent is at high percents? What's the priority of the sword swing?

So much to test!
We have several of those questions answered already.
1. Opponents cannot go through it. It is a wall.
2. Yes, it’s destroyed if Zelda’s cast is interrupted.
3. It has 13% HP still. Since it clangs it can only be destroyed effectively by some projectiles. (Charge shot, shadow ball: etc)
4. I know nothing about the wind box. In fact, it’s most likely removed, as now it’s a wall that will push the opponent back due to the new collision mechanic
5. Zelda can immediately cast Phantom again once the Phantom’s body has disappeared
6. Yes, it hits blow stage.
7. Zelda can cancel Phantom with second jump, as all Charge moves can be cancelled with a jump. Zelda is stuck charging the Phantom unless she releases it. Nario said he’s going to try to mention Zelda should be able to cancel the charge with shield. This would bring her charge move up to date with the rest of the cast. Most characters can instantly roll from charge, too... however with what the move can offer, I believe it’s balanced to let her shield, because unlike other charge characters, Zelda has to start from the beginning every time
8. No. You can only cancel the animations end lag by fully charging the move.
9. No idea.
10. It’s a kill move past the 3rd charge, hell, I bet even the fist kills horizontally
11. No clue.

So, is Zelda good now or what? I'm hoping she is, since the last time any tier list thought Zelda was a good character, it was early Melee. She's been one of my mains since Brawl, and it has broken my teeny little heart that she sucks every time. So, is she gonna be good or nah?
She’s going to be a nightmare that’s for absolute sure. Her down B change and side B change her game enough to say she’ll be ok, but it’s all the other **** they’ve changed that makes her top tier material
 
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Musha4DaWin

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She’s going to be a nightmare that’s for absolute sure. Her down B change and side B change her game enough to say she’ll be ok, but it’s all the other **** they’ve changed that makes her top tier material
FINALLY! I'm super excited to be able to play Zelda, and hopefully slay as her. I especially like how she can't die by a nudge by using Side-B. Also, she's darn cute now.
 

BJN39

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I’m hitting the placebo alarm. Phantom could pass through attacks/aerials and hit as long as the attack didn’t kill phantom in SSB4. Same as this. 99% certain of it. Doesn’t mean this isn’t good news because that was a good characteristic.

But if anyone knows off the top, was DK’s BAir staled in that video? Because in SSB4 DK BAir does 13% base dmg, which...would kill phantom, would it not?

I think this property was named "trample" or something like that
Ew no that term name proposal was horrible and confusing.
 
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Katy Parry

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I’m hitting the placebo alarm. Phantom could pass through attacks/aerials and hit as long as the attack didn’t kill phantom in SSB4. Same as this. 99% certain of it. Doesn’t mean this isn’t good news because that was a good characteristic.

But if anyone knows off the top, was DK’s BAir staled in that video? Because in SSB4 DK BAir does 13% base dmg, which...would kill phantom, would it not?


Ew no that term name proposal was horrible and confusing.
I'll have to watch, I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. However, it's nice to know a good trait is confirmed.

I saw him throwing them out but that was the only one he landed in that trade. But we will see. I bet a fresh back air would have killed it
 

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We have several of those questions answered already.
1. Opponents cannot go through it. It is a wall.
2. Yes, it’s destroyed if Zelda’s cast is interrupted.
3. It has 13% HP still. Since it clangs it can only be destroyed effectively by some projectiles. (Charge shot, shadow ball: etc)
4. I know nothing about the wind box. In fact, it’s most likely removed, as now it’s a wall that will push the opponent back due to the new collision mechanic
5. Zelda can immediately cast Phantom again once the Phantom’s body has disappeared
6. Yes, it hits blow stage.
7. Zelda can cancel Phantom with second jump, as all Charge moves can be cancelled with a jump. Zelda is stuck charging the Phantom unless she releases it. Nario said he’s going to try to mention Zelda should be able to cancel the charge with shield. This would bring her charge move up to date with the rest of the cast. Most characters can instantly roll from charge, too... however with what the move can offer, I believe it’s balanced to let her shield, because unlike other charge characters, Zelda has to start from the beginning every time
8. No. You can only cancel the animations end lag by fully charging the move.
9. No idea.
10. It’s a kill move past the 3rd charge, hell, I bet even the fist kills horizontally
11. No clue.



She’s going to be a nightmare that’s for absolute sure. Her down B change and side B change her game enough to say she’ll be ok, but it’s all the other **** they’ve changed that makes her top tier material
Yeah, a lot of properties we've already gotten footage or people talking about it, but some stuff was only an isolated footage or based on a comment so I'm trying not to believe 100% as this moment (but I think I came to the same conclusions you described). I think there's still like 1-2 seconds of downtime after phantom is destroyed as shown in one case, but we need someone to try summoning phantom instantly after it's destroyed and see what happens. Have we seen any footage of zelda canceling phantom with second jump? That would be amazing.
 
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