Data Zelda’s Smash Ultimate Moveset /Move Viability Discussion: Phantom Slash = Huge Neutral Buff

[Jimbo Jumbo]

Hi fellow Zelda mains! New to Ultimate and to Smashboards (kinda) but I'm hoping to learn a lot from you guys

Do we have a visual of the sweetspot of fair and bair? It seems like it's actually not quite her toes like it is in Melee, it looks like it's a little closer to her body.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Hi fellow Zelda mains! New to Ultimate and to Smashboards (kinda) but I'm hoping to learn a lot from you guys

Do we have a visual of the sweetspot of fair and bair? It seems like it's actually not quite her toes like it is in Melee, it looks like it's a little closer to her body.

I always felt like it was between her ankle and lower calf. I guess I would have to look closer to be sure, but I just kind of "feel" where it is now.

 

[BJN39]

Hi fellow Zelda mains! New to Ultimate and to Smashboards (kinda) but I'm hoping to learn a lot from you guys

Do we have a visual of the sweetspot of fair and bair? It seems like it's actually not quite her toes like it is in Melee, it looks like it's a little closer to her body.

Been hardcore testing the move for this, and think I’ve cone up with a pretty reliable picture. Note, this could be a tiny bit off but I’m confident is pretty darn close for not actually have the location/size data:

There’s probably a hitbox in the middle at her leg, but it’s nearly irrelevant to the move because it can’t reach any farther than the two on her hip and foot, though it does bridge the two. Also I couldn’t test it! haha. Sweetspot is the small circle.

In other news, I feel like I can confidently say that the sweet-spot was made larger.

 

[Codebox]

I've been playing Ultimate for a couple days now, (getting use to the controls, movement, practicing etc) and with Zelda I've been landing lighting kicks much more consistently than I use to... Idk if it's the positioning or what. I know they still have the same sweespot angle, but yeah. And you know it's good where we live in a Smash world where Dins Fire is useful. lol

 

[Deleted member]

Hey guys. Fellow Zelda main here!

I'll probably be more active on this thread in the future, but for now, a question. Is there already an official listing of Zelda's frame data? I can't seem to find any so far. If not, I was planning to make a thread out of it (or I could post it here,) as I personally tested her frame data in various situations, but I'll hold off on it for now. Thanks in advance!

 

[BJN39]

Hey guys. Fellow Zelda main here!

I'll probably be more active on this thread in the future, but for now, a question. Is there already an official listing of Zelda's frame data? I can't seem to find any so far. If not, I was planning to make a thread out of it (or I could post it here,) as I personally tested her frame data in various situations, but I'll hold off on it for now. Thanks in advance!

Yes there is! Well, actually there are I think 3 now. I’ve got one, plus some more data in the Fairy Fountain thread on this area. due to not having all of the scripts accessible at this time, hitbox data isn’t fully available yet, but the frame data is here. I also made a quick reference table in post 3:

Spoiler: FRAME DATA TABLE

Move|Hit Frames|FAF (Endlag)|Frame Data Notes
JAB 1|4-5, 7|25 (17F)|Transition: 9-16
JAB RAPID|3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17||8 hits minimum; Earliest transition: 19
JAB ENDER|6-7|43 (35F)|
DASH ATTACK|6-7, 8-12|36 (25F)|
FTILT|12-13|37 (23F)|
DTILT|5-11|22 (10F)|
UTILT|7-19|30 (10F)|
FSMASH|16, 18, 20, 22, 24|50 (25F)|Charge: F11
DSMASH|5-6, 13-14|38 (23F)|Charge: F3
USMASH|9-23, 25-32, 34|64 (29F)|Charge: F4; Multi-hit Rehit rate: 4F
NAIR|6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23|50 (26F)|Landing Lag: 15F; Auto-Cancel: <3-37>
FAIR|6-10|50 (39F)|Landing Lag: 15F; Auto-Cancel: <2-41>
BAIR|6-10|50 (39F)|Landing Lag: 16F; Auto-Cancel: <2-43>
DAIR|14, 15-24|45 (20F)|Landing Lag: 12F; Auto-Cancel: <3-37>
UAIR|14-17|55 (37F)|Landing Lag: 12F; Auto-Cancel: <4-52>
GRAB|10-11|40 (28F)|
DASH GRAB|13-14|48 (33F)|
PIVOT GRAB|14-15|43 (27F)|
FTHROW|30|50 (19F)|Grab Invincibility: 1-29
BTHROW|27|50 (22F)|Grab Invincibility: 1-26
DTHROW|25-26, 31-32, 37-38, 43-44, 51|70 (18F)|Grab Invincibility: 1-50
UTHROW|30|50 (19F)|Grab Invincibility: 1-29
NAYRU|11-22, 26|58 (31F)|Intangible: 4-13; Reflects: 5-41; Multi-hit Rehit rate: 4F
DINS (FULL MOVE)|44-47 ~ 70-73|70 ~ 98|Minimum to Maximum cast time
DINS (RELEASE)|14-17|40 (22F)
FARORE (GROUND)|6-7, 35-36|76 (39F)|Intangible: 17-34
FARORE (AIR)|6-7, 35-36|51 (14F)|Intangible: 17-34; Landing Lag: 30F

A Japanese source also compiled the data alongside every other character I think(?) and the scripts for her FAF data were found/shown recently, the script ones show her data without any frame Speed modifiers though so a couple of moves look different!

 

[Nintendan]

So I just played a ton of Quickplay (probably 25+ matches or so) and pretty much got bodied, only winning like 5-6 of them.
Aside from my fundamentals being shaky (I need to stop shielding so much...), one thing I noticed that kept happening throughout a lot of those matches was how (poorly) I used Phantom, specifically in neutral.

A good amount of the time, I'd charge up Phantom and either anticipate a dash (and release the Phantom early) or a jump (release the Phantom for the overhead swipe if possible, though the timing for this is pretty tough and I kinda panic and just throw it out when I see aggressive movement, need to work on that patience a little more). Most of the time though, I'd end up just getting hit. I'm trying to get used to how far away it is to be safe with it, but as I tried to charge it up from a little bit further away, my opponent would just back off, wait it out and then I'm without Phantom for a few seconds.

It feels like Phantom only really does anything in neutral if the range at which you charge it is both safe/fast enough to react (and release) in response to your opponent's options AND in a situation where your opponent is out of space on stage. I tried to get some stage control without throwing Phantom out like I was before (unsafe ranges) but just found it too hard to get anything as Zelda doesn't really have an awful lot of tools in neutral without Phantom.

Anyone else having this problem? I suppose if you charge Phantom and they back off, you can at least move up and try and keep them there until your Phantom disappears so your next charge is ready but after going against some players who understand the move a bit more than the average player, I'm starting to find difficulty in using it safely on stage.

 

[meleebrawler]

So I just played a ton of Quickplay (probably 25+ matches or so) and pretty much got bodied, only winning like 5-6 of them.
Aside from my fundamentals being shaky (I need to stop shielding so much...), one thing I noticed that kept happening throughout a lot of those matches was how (poorly) I used Phantom, specifically in neutral.

A good amount of the time, I'd charge up Phantom and either anticipate a dash (and release the Phantom early) or a jump (release the Phantom for the overhead swipe if possible, though the timing for this is pretty tough and I kinda panic and just throw it out when I see aggressive movement, need to work on that patience a little more). Most of the time though, I'd end up just getting hit. I'm trying to get used to how far away it is to be safe with it, but as I tried to charge it up from a little bit further away, my opponent would just back off, wait it out and then I'm without Phantom for a few seconds.

It feels like Phantom only really does anything in neutral if the range at which you charge it is both safe/fast enough to react (and release) in response to your opponent's options AND in a situation where your opponent is out of space on stage. I tried to get some stage control without throwing Phantom out like I was before (unsafe ranges) but just found it too hard to get anything as Zelda doesn't really have an awful lot of tools in neutral without Phantom.

Anyone else having this problem? I suppose if you charge Phantom and they back off, you can at least move up and try and keep them there until your Phantom disappears so your next charge is ready but after going against some players who understand the move a bit more than the average player, I'm starting to find difficulty in using it safely on stage.

At least in my experience with Battlefield formats, charging it while jumping lets you cover more space dynamically. If they jump preemptively you can hit them with the punch as something like swordie fair, otherwise you can adjust your spacing to give yourself more space or further restrict the opponent's.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I suppose if you charge Phantom and they back off, you can at least move up and try and keep them there until your Phantom disappears so your next charge is ready

That's generally what you should do. Combine that with:

a situation where your opponent is out of space on stage.

and you have a general idea of how Phantom works. Think of a wall between your opponent and you and focusing on pushing that wall further in front of you. The more stage you have behind you, the less room for your opponent to retreat. Any time they retreat and camp, is more stage control for you and they will eventually have to move forward.

Once they are trapped at the ledge, barring character specific options, they will only have shield, roll, dash, or jump as their only options. When you charge Phantom, you need to be thinking about what your opponent is going to do next. If they roll or dash, release it early and punish, after you regain control. If they shield, keep charging until you reach full charge, then you are free to dash grab or stuff an aerial. If they jump, time an overhead slash and be ready to pressure their landing and force an air-dodge.

If you're forcing a speedy or rushdown character to camp, you're doing something right and should take advantage of that. Don't freely give up any good position trying to chase them, make them come to you instead. If they are retreating to the ledge and camping, they're probably trying to bait you into approaching them, so they can hop over you and gain center stage. If you find yourself rushing them, only to be hopped over and trapped at the ledge, it's time to take a step back and think more critically about the situation. You don't need to chase them and lose good positioning, they will have to come to you eventually or risk being knocked off stage. Have patience and think about the situation as a whole and where you stand in it. I once hopped in place for a full minute, against someone I had a stock up on, trying to bait me into attacking them. I eventually won, because of the timeout.

You have the right idea, you just need more than 25-30 matches to gain the skill and experience needed, to apply it in practice.

 

[Nintendan]

At least in my experience with Battlefield formats, charging it while jumping lets you cover more space dynamically. If they jump preemptively you can hit them with the punch as something like swordie fair, otherwise you can adjust your spacing to give yourself more space or further restrict the opponent's.

I definitely need to mess around with doing this a little more aggressively as most of my jumps with Phantom are away from my opponent, which against faster characters probably makes more sense but being able to threaten more space jumping towards some characters does seem pretty strong. A lot of the time I just don't release my Phantom when hopping back and never play off the free space it gives me when my opponent backs off.

 

[Jimbo Jumbo]

The range where phantom is "safe" also varies based on a player's tendencies. For example I was playing someone (forget which character) who was dashing back a ton and being very defensive in general, so I started charging phantom even at close ranges and wasn't getting punished, which helped me push for stage control. It's a gamble because it's not technically safe but it can be a good mixup if your opponent isn't punishing you. Just gotta figure out your opponent's habits and adapt! Which I am not good at lol but I'm getting better

 

[Codebox]

Does anyone plan on posting any good Zelda guides sometime?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

hey girls!

have you guys seen about the displaced phantom? sorry if it was already talked about, i skimmed through and didnt really see anything. it seems SUPER useful against projectile characters bc young link is currently making me want to quit the game, but ive had SO much trouble getting it. have any of you guys tried it and had any luck?

https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1080260133177839617

theres also a version where zelda appears in front of the phantom instead of behind:
https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1081692520667504640

 

[Rickster]

hey girls!

have you guys seen about the displaced phantom? sorry if it was already talked about, i skimmed through and didnt really see anything. it seems SUPER useful against projectile characters bc young link is currently making me want to quit the game, but ive had SO much trouble getting it. have any of you guys tried it and had any luck?

https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1080260133177839617

theres also a version where zelda appears in front of the phantom instead of behind:
https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1081692520667504640

Omg this actually looks like Zelda tech worth practicing. I've had the first one happen to me randomly but I assumed it was just some sort of weird hitbox/hurtbox interaction. It's amazing to know that it can be recreated consistently

Followup question: is the Phantom's shield actually fully invincible? In my experience so far it appears to be, but I wanna know if anyone has had other experiences

 

[BJN39]

Phantom shield appears to have complete projectile blockage from my testing; iirc I got it to pop lucario’s aura charge’s aura sphere lol.

Though I imagine some projectiles might have hitboxes too big that Zelda may get clipped even when in that halfway thru phantom position. Worth testing imo

 

[StoicPhantom]

have you guys seen about the displaced phantom?

That ones new to me. I don't know how useful the front one will be, since it seems to put Zelda out in harms way, but the other is solid and very useful looking, so thanks for sharing.

Followup question: is the Phantom's shield actually fully invincible? In my experience so far it appears to be, but I wanna know if anyone has had other experiences

Yeah, pretty much. Not just projectiles, I've had it block anything from Corrin's pin kick to Charizard's Flare Blitz. Careful with Flare Blitz and similarly large hitboxs, they can go through Phantom and hit Zelda, if she is too close.

 

[Rickster]

So I've been messing around with this in Training mode

The easiest motion for me is to flick my finger over from Y to B (pro controller btw) while doing a quarter circle with the control stick. With some practice it doesn't seem too difficult to learn (although with my method you'll probably get minor thumb pain lol).

It also appears that you can tell how well you did by how far ahead/behind Zelda lands from her neutral knight. On one attempt (shield version), I was able to get her to stand completely inside the Phantom. Enough to where it could protect her from even large projectiles like a Charge Shot or Aura Sphere.

Definitely practice this gorls, this will really help mitigate one of DownB's biggest weaknesses (not being able to set anything up due to projectile spam)

Edit: Ok so after actually using this in real matches I realized it mitigates another weakness of Phantom: The full charge blindspot.

For those who don't know, there isn't a real hitbox right in front of her for the final stage (kinda like Smash 4's too). This means that if an enemy closes in on you and stage 5 (the holy overhead slash) is passed, you're gonna get hit unless the windbox pulls a miracle for you. If the opponent shields, I don't think they get pushed though.

So anyway, the forward Displaced Phantom (can we call it DP?) just so happens to put Zelda right in range of the final stage. Now we can't just spam this since obviously the earlier stages won't protect her at all anymore. I would say a regular DP would be a more aggressive option to take stage control or set up a combo (DP>Nair>DP Connects is a simple and common one for me so far) while a Reverse DP is more of a defensive one, especially against projectiles. I found it particularly useful against Ridley's fireballs, since we can't effectively reflect them and a regular DownB takes too long to charge sufficiently to tank it.

JP53 Idk who or where you are but you are an absolute goddess for figuring this out. This makes the move feel sooo much nicer than it already was

 

[Codebox]

YES! I've been looking for a tech like this, I get so annoyed being projectile camped. This might just make Zelda a consistent setup character given the right circumstances. With a couple more Phantom tweets (added windbox/blindspot removal and more duability) we'll be on the right track as far as Phantom goes. I have to practice this.

 

[Arwon]

Really struggling to work out hour to do the displaced phantom on a GC controller

 

[Acute]

Been hardcore testing the move for this, and think I’ve cone up with a pretty reliable picture. Note, this could be a tiny bit off but I’m confident is pretty darn close for not actually have the location/size data:
View attachment 184478
There’s probably a hitbox in the middle at her leg, but it’s nearly irrelevant to the move because it can’t reach any farther than the two on her hip and foot, though it does bridge the two. Also I couldn’t test it! haha. Sweetspot is the small circle.

In other news, I feel like I can confidently say that the sweet-spot was made larger.

Wondering is there anything good not hitting the sweet spot(like combo into something else)?

 

[Rickster]

Wondering is there anything good not hitting the sweet spot(like combo into something else)?

At mid to high % they can if you land fast enough. I wouldn't fish for these though. I personally use them as failsafes in case I miss

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

hey girls! i've been having a LOT of trouble with doing the displaced phantom consistently so i just wanted to share something that's made it a LOT more consistent for me. so with the new 2.00 patch update, a feature was added that makes it where if you press two jump buttons at the same time you will always do a short hop. for me personally, the biggest issue with doing the displaced phantom was accidentally full hopping because in the heat of battle it can be hard to lightly press the jump button to do a short hop in addition to the complicated/fast displaced phantom inputs, so what i've done is:

(for gamecube controller)
- mapped one shoulder button to jump (i personally use L for jump but whatever u want)
- keep the X/Y buttons as jump

and press L and X at the same time to short hop. this has made displaced phantom a LOT easier and more consistent for me because now all you have to worry about is the control stick input instead of the control stick input AND carefully pressing a jump button to short hop.
watch out projectile users we are coming to take overT with miss displaced phanTom

 

[ZephyrZ]

So this might be worth mentioning.

I saw this tech and was terrifying that I might have to master if I really want to call Zelda my new secondary, but it seems so convoluted to pull off that it's probably just more practical to do that much simpler displaced Phantom tech posted earlier on this page.

So what do you actual Zelda mains think?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

honestly i tried it out after seeing that video and YES the c stick macro way was very easy to do after understanding it, but id prefer to learn the other (normal?) displaced phantom method without having to learn a whole new control scheme just bc im so used to the one i have, but i think the c stick macro could definitely be useful to someone who doesnt mind trying a drastically different control scheme

 

[StoicPhantom]

So this might be worth mentioning.

I haven't tried it out nor will I be able to until tomorrow, but I don't think it will be of any real benefit. It doesn't seem to be useful for anything other than displaced Phantom and that isn't useful often enough, to justify a new control scheme. Still an interesting find and will probably benefit other characters. Unless there is other wacky tech discovered, utilizing this scheme.

 

[Lil Puddin]

So this might be worth mentioning.

I saw this tech and was terrifying that I might have to master if I really want to call Zelda my new secondary, but it seems so convoluted to pull off that it's probably just more practical to do that much simpler displaced Phantom tech posted earlier on this page.

So what do you actual Zelda mains think?

tbh that's how Phantom Knight should work normally, without having to spam inputs and learn weird layouts. But it is useful so she gets a shield of sorts while charging up the predictable move.