A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

[Mew2King]

So the only even matchups all occur on FD...and everyone gets one stage ban. I use Diddy. I never get to play on FD. Pretty pointless to have an even MU there.



Europe and Japan are different from us. Their communities are smaller, they develop differently, and ultimately what may be a problem in the states may not be there because of a lot of reasons, of which it would be impossible to figure out which one. It could be because MK is not broken, or it could be because their community is 1/10th our size and overall not as developed, even if a few players excel highly.



As mentioned earlier, the NY/NJ where the stage list is the smallest in the states, MK still dominates

Here, let me explain this more accurately for you, as to why this is the case

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13569950&postcount=7

or, if you don't want to read that, I'll simply copy paste it here.

Ridiculously diverse character representation in the top spots.

The best 4 MKs in the world are me, Ally, Anti, and Nairo. All 4 of us live on EC, going to EC tournaments all the time.

The best 4 Olimars in the world are Dabuz, Rich Brown, Brood, and Nietono. One lives on EC.

The best 4 Diddies in the world are ADHD, Gnes, Felix, and idk who would be 4th (prolly anti?). Two live on EC, but only One enters as Diddy here.

The best 4 Snakes in the world are Ally, Razer, MVD, and Havok or Fatal (probably Fatal)? One (or two) live on EC (but only One was here).

The best 4 ICs in the world are Vinnie, 9b, Kakera, and Lain. One lives on EC.

Diverse results are ---- GUARANTEED --- at these East Coast MK banned tournaments as a result, no matter how you slice it, due to that. You took out the 4 best MK players in the world, who all happened to live in the same region, where only one of the top 4 for each other top tier character is present. It's guaranteed to happen due to that alone, every single time. And it will always be diverse, every single time, just like this, because of who the top players of each character use and where they live. There are plenty of really good characters, and MK is not nearly as broken as you all seem to think. You fight the top 4 in the -WORLD- here, on a daily basis. You have seen the best of the best the character has to offer, where 2 of these players (Anti/Ally) are probably the best overall players in general. You've seen one (sometimes two) of the best of the other characters comparatively. This is why results are GUARANTEED to look like this, EVERY time.


Btw, I didn't say they were even on FD, I said MK -- LOSES -- there, because he does. You are all just being incredibly biased with your matchups thinking MK dominates when he really doesn't. You can't use me beating people to make that your consensus. I dedicated my life to this game, and have been to and accomplished more than anyone. I also come from a super strong melee background which helped my smash concepts a LOT.

Last I checked, Gluttony beat Ally in a set and Brood beat me and him and got 2nd at Apex. I'd say they are PRETTY GOOD PLAYERS, especially since there are several better players in Japan than Brood.

There are many great characters, but we have all of the best MKs, while we are missing a lot of the other best characters, ESPECIALLY on East coast. You guys have an incredibly biased view of how good MK is compared to the other characters because of what you see most often (almost all the time).

 

[TKD]

Every japanese tourney has 100+ entries because the entry is free and they have amateur and pro brackets...they also learned most techniques in brawl at least half a year before the US found out...most of the time, FROM THEM.

Their community is "less developed"? Ridiculous argument.

 

[B.A.M.]

Yeah every1 is mad that the top MK player in the world is winning. How dare they? lol

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Didn't I tell you to keep up? Stop digressing.

The point you brought up was MK not winning APEX, because of Brood. I told you Brood placed lower in a local not too long after. You start to digress by ignoring the fact he didn't live to expectations the second time around. Stop cherrying picking results that support your side of the argument and then when you realize that doesn't work, you cover up by changing the main point.

In others words. Shut up

M2K, question for you. What's your record against Rich?

How are you going to compare Apex to a local? You can't even compare the two. Also, Im' pretty sure he didn't get knocked you by an MK in that tournament (I know he lost a set to ADHD)

 

[John12346]

Jebus, how many times does this have to be explained to you? Europe's MKs just flat out do not play as well as NA MKs, and Japan's MKs do not have incentive to play like total ******s due to their metagame of no prize money on the line.

If you want to argue against this point, you need to show me MORE THAN ONE SET of a Japanese MK, and MK ONLY, playing like a complete planky, scroogy ****** for victory.
.
.
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Also, it does not matter if MK loses to certain characters on FD, he always strikes and bans that stage.

 

[Player-1]

Btw, I didn't say they were even on FD, I said MK -- LOSES -- there, because he does. You are all just being incredibly biased with your matchups thinking MK dominates when he really doesn't. You can't use me beating people to make that your consensus. I dedicated my life to this game, and have been to and accomplished more than anyone. I also come from a super strong melee background which helped my smash concepts a LOT.
.

there you go again with the bias comments. They're irrelevant. I can say you're biased and you can say I'm biased, but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter.


and MK doesn't lose against Diddy on FD.

 

[Mew2King]

stop saying MK when it was just me. MK got ***** at Apex 2010, and most nationals won by MK are simply just me, and on rare occasions ally (if you consider Ktar nationals even though it's mostly just EC players. Also, one other tournament whobo3, where ally decided to go marth in finals and win too, and use snake to beat trela). To answer your question, I have a winning record against Rich, cuz I'm a better player.

Diddy definitely has the advantage against MK on FD.

 

[Player-1]

no he doesn't, not in this current metagame.

 

[MVD]

Here, let me explain this more accurately for you, as to why this is the case

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13569950&postcount=7

or, if you don't want to read that, I'll simply copy paste it here.



The best 4 MKs in the world are me, Ally, Anti, and Nairo. All 4 of us live on EC, going to EC tournaments all the time.

The best 4 Olimars in the world are Dabuz, Rich Brown, Brood, and Nietono. One lives on EC.

The best 4 Diddies in the world are ADHD, Gnes, Felix, and idk who would be 4th (prolly anti?). Two live on EC, but only One enters as Diddy here.

The best 4 Snakes in the world are Ally, Razer, MVD, and Havok or Fatal (probably Fatal)? One (or two) live on EC (but only One was here).

The best 4 ICs in the world are Vinnie, 9b, Kakera, and Lain. One lives on EC.





I am content with life

 

[B.A.M.]

Tell them TKD. All these ppl talking bs. I mean freakin a people. I cant wait till Mike puts up the videos of TKD vs Tyrant from teh tourney preceding Champion. TKD was ****** Tyrant. The character isnt omnipotent. Theres myriads of game where u can see this. But everyone blocks those out of memory. People refuse to recall those times. Everyone just remember someone dying from a SL at 50%

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Tell them TKD. All these ppl talking bs. I mean freakin a people. I cant wait till Mike puts up the videos of TKD vs Tyrant from teh tourney preceding Champion. TKD was ****** Tyrant. The character isnt omnipotent. Theres myriads of game where u can see this. But everyone blocks those out of memory. People refuse to recall those times. Everyone just remember someone dying from a SL at 50%

Don't forget Fow vs Tyrant

 

[Conviction]

To answer your question, I have a winning record against Rich, cuz I'm a better player.

I didn't ask for a side comment. Lol, thank you for my and jebus's answer.

Problem Jebus

How are you going to compare Apex to a local? You can't even compare the two. Also, Im' pretty sure he didn't get knocked you by an MK in that tournament (I know he lost a set to ADHD)

Come on follow your own logic, Japan plays just as competitive as the US does if not more. So he shouldn't have changed his seriousness from tourney to tourney. Actually I would like to see the results. Does anyone have them? Anyways point is, your one outlier doesn't mean **** if he couldn't hold his consistency.

 

[Spelt]

Yeah, continuously bring up the one mk main that has a reputation of losing to bad characters.

 

[Samuelson]

...there is likely an alternative motive that I won't even bother talking about in public.

Mike Hazes 7 Steps to Dominating the Smash Community
1. Create a video purposely inflicting mass chaos upon the smash community thus causing people quit their URC positions out of guilt.

2. Sit back and watch silently for 3 weeks while the general public starts to bicker at each other.

3. Win a regional going all Marth while simultaneously preventing any MK mains from getting higher than 5th. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13566284

4. Release second video giving detailed facts as to why MK should NOT be banned. AlphaZealot gets salty.

5. URC crumbles within days of follow up video. Mike creates new Ruleset Committee where he is the only one in charge.

6. Proposes rule that all characters are banned except for Ganondorf. Mike is allowed to ignore this rule since he creates all rules for Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

7. Profit.

 

[John12346]

^ lmao

Alright, as I said, I need to rock this world! Time to defend my charts!

(For those of you wondering - yes, I edited this post out of my previous post because it got lost to the next page.)

Okay, so the argument is that we don't know how much money each character has truly won, because it's possible that some characters were used less than other characters, correct? With that in mind, I went through my character breakdowns, and performed a process I officially dub "Reduction."

Here's how it works:
Step 1: Find a player.
Step 2: Determine which character he or she has won the most money with.
Step 3: EXCLUDE all other characters who have not won as much money for a player as X%{0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%} of the player's top character(in the case of ties, just leave the characters alone).
Step 4: Repeat Steps 1 - 3 for all money winning players.
Step 5: Add up the breakdowns for each character for a new modified "Cash Won(No Split)" for every character.
Step 6: Add up those values from Step 5 to create a modified amount of money to divide by. Note that I need to divide by modified versions of "No Split" because I can't calculate how the sum for "Full Split" will decrease with this function.

The drawback for Part 6 is that, while the percentages displayed are indicators of success, they can't really be defined to mean anything, but that's not important in the context of this project, because we want to observe how much the values change over various Reduction sessions, rather than compare how high the values actually are, so don't worry about that.

Alright, so what in the hell did I do, exactly? In order to counter Mike's statement that my data cannot reliably show how successful a character is, I went ahead and made a graph that shows what happens when you begin to tear away less successful secondaries from players. We can find out exactly which characters are being carried, and which are not. Of course, we cannot determine such a thing off one data point, so I went ahead and used increments of 25% so we can observe how the changes occur.

Putting it simply, the left side of the graph indicates a general idea of success when all players' characters are considered, and the right side of the graph indicates a general idea of success only when all players' top characters ONLY are considered. And of course, the space between them shows how success for each character changes as you remove players' secondaries(100% Reduction is a flawed approach, mind you, as it does occasionally remove some players' legitimate characters).

- A line with a positive slope indicates that a character is LESS reliant on secondaries in order to win money, and the value set for the character's "Average" category on my charts is likely an underestimation.
- A line with a negative slope indicates that a character is MORE reliant on secondaries in order to win money and the value set for the character's "Average" category on my charts is likely an overestimation.

Oh looky there, MK has a positive slope.

 

[Conviction]

@B.A.M: Idk what you are talking about, I sure as hell quote TKD's videos like a mother****er when I'm trying to make a case for Fox having one of the better MK MUs.

 

[Mew2King]

Actually, he got 2 stocked twice by Fow's Ness. And he's WC's best overall player. He has a really good Falco, Snake, Marth, Wario and many other characters. he even won WC's last MK banned tournament, and plays more top level characters than any other WC player does. His wario was good enough that during the MLG season he even beat me 5 times in a row in friendlies before and I got so mad I made it a facebook status. I ***** his MK that same day.

 

[Cassio]

-Multiple rules just to keep the character legal, including a lower LGL as well as the ban of the IDC
-People who don't want MK banned want even more stages banned to keep the character legal, even though in areas of the US where this has happened it made no difference.

Yes, MK IS OVERPOWERED. How twisted is it that we bent-over-backwards for 3 years just to keep one character legal that wouldn't have been had we not made so many changes to the ruleset, and even with those changes the character still dominated to a point that 3/4ths of the community wanted him banned.

These points are all wrong and yes I have evidence to show it. I just havent had the time to properly prepare the presentation.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Holy Cow. People need to take the 11% in context.

11% doesn't seem like much until you take a few things into consideration.

1. There are 36 characters in the game. If each character had equal representation, each character would have 2.7% representation. Even if the top 15 were the only viable characters in the game, you'd still have 6.6% representation.

2. MK's percent representation is greater than the next three or four characters PUT TOGETHER. This, my friends, is a "massive deviation from the population". I.E. the character is significantly different in some way.

I, for one, am neutral in the ban. I do not, however, approve of the misquotation of important data.

 

[TKD]

If you want to argue against this point, you need to show me MORE THAN ONE SET of a Japanese MK, and MK ONLY, playing like a complete planky, scroogy ****** for victory.

MK -cannot- do that in Japanese rulesets:
- Understage travel clause: you cannot travel understage more than once consecutively without stepping on the stage (platforms don't count).
- There's also either a ledge grab limit, or a ground time clause: highest ground time wins on time out. This last rule is bad IMO because it gives advantage to chars that can chaingrab (pretty gay), but if it's not there, the ledge clause works just fine.

Their ruleset is GOOD. MK just can't do that in Japan.
Hey, even my ruleset is good, has 11 stages (which most Japan tourneys probably don't), and doesn't even have starters (so diddy/ic don't get to choose between 3 flat stages).

If you're gonna complain about MK, check out his performance in doubles. Because with him banned, Diddy and Snake are gonna do the same as him.

 

[Conviction]

@Cassio's Warning:You ain't hooking though, so it's all good.

@TKD: Haha didn't I help you translate that? Man that was a while back.

 

[Spelt]

These points are all wrong and yes I have the evidence to indicate this. I just havent had the time to properly prepare the presentation.

lol.
I always see you say **** like this but you never, ever back it up.

If you have time to keep up with multiple active threads and reply consistently throughout then you have time to put together your so called evidence.

 

[Player-1]

Holy Cow. People need to take the 11% in context.

11% doesn't seem like much until you take a few things into consideration.

1. There are 36 characters in the game. If each character had equal representation, each character would have 2.7% representation. Even if the top 15 were the only viable characters in the game, you'd still have 6.6% representation.

2. MK's percent representation is greater than the next three or four characters PUT TOGETHER. This, my friends, is a "massive deviation from the population". I.E. the character is significantly different in some way.

I, for one, am neutral in the ban. I do not, however, approve of the misquotation of important data.

best post about Mike's newest vid.

 

[TKD]

Even if MK was the best char by just a bit, he'd still have 20% rep. In most Street Fighter games, the best char isn't the best by much, but has what seems like 40% rep. Players play to win, it's just that.
Chars like Samus and Ganondorf would never have that 2% rep. Is that unfair?

 

[Conviction]

Holy Cow. People need to take the 11% in context.

11% doesn't seem like much until you take a few things into consideration.

1. There are 36 characters in the game. If each character had equal representation, each character would have 2.7% representation. Even if the top 15 were the only viable characters in the game, you'd still have 6.6% representation.

2. MK's percent representation is greater than the next three or four characters PUT TOGETHER. This, my friends, is a "massive deviation from the population". I.E. the character is significantly different in some way.

I, for one, am neutral in the ban. I do not, however, approve of the misquotation of important data.

I would like to see Mike, himself, respond to this.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

-Multiple rules just to keep the character legal, including a lower LGL as well as the ban of the IDC
-People who don't want MK banned want even more stages banned to keep the character legal, even though in areas of the US where this has happened it made no difference.

Yes, MK IS OVERPOWERED. How twisted is it that we bent-over-backwards for 3 years just to keep one character legal that wouldn't have been had we not made so many changes to the ruleset, and even with those changes the character still dominated to a point that 3/4ths of the community wanted him banned.

ASDF(§$FH§(G§

STOP ****ING SAYING WE CHANGED THE RULESET FOR METAKNIGHT.

We didn't. The one case where we did (lower LGL for him than the rest of the cast), it was completely unnecesssary. Come on man, you run the ****ing ruleset, you should damn well know better. We tried an MK-only LGL, and guess what happened: we decided very quickly that it was a ****ing horrible idea. And counting IDC against MK is simply ****ing bull****.

I am so ****ing sick of hearing this argument, mostly because I've shown several times why it's wrong and it's still so phenomenally stupid.

 

[Mew2King]

that's really not even a lot man, 11% or 13% or 20% isn't really a lot for a "bannable character" when your MAIN argument is Overcentralization. That's not ****. He's not broken and I wouldn't really call that overcentralization either.

 

[.AC.]

I would like to see Mike, himself, respond to this.

if all characters were equal in viability perhaps it would be a solid argument, it is just common sense that the best character is going to be the most used, a 5% deviation from that 6% listed seems like very little when you take that in to account

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Even if MK was the best char by just a bit, he'd still have 20% rep. In most Street Fighter games, the best char isn't the best by much, but has what seems like 40% rep. Players play to win, it's just that.
Chars like Samus and Ganondorf would never have that 2% rep. Is that unfair?

I have a hypothesis for why it seems like he has 40% representation.

I hypothesize that this effect is because Meta Knight players are more likely to attend repeat events.

The smash community is relatively young. Because of this, we are relatively poor. Some people are even young enough to not be able to legally work. So the players that WIN MONEY can attend MORE regional and national events.

==

This hypothesis can be confirmed or debunked in my new study. You know. Once I gather a year's worth of tournament results.

 

[Conviction]

No centralization (following Mike's 11% to M2K's 20%) but that rough 1/5 of the community using that one character is making up to more than half the money put out this year.

No problem. Right?

 

[Spelt]

ASDF(§$FH§(G§

STOP ****ING SAYING WE CHANGED THE RULESET FOR METAKNIGHT.

We didn't. The one case where we did (lower LGL for him than the rest of the cast), it was completely unnecesssary.

Yeah ... no.

 

[.AC.]

No centralization (following Mike's 11% to M2K's 20%) but that rough 1/5 of the community using that one character is making up to more than half the money put out this year.

No problem. Right?

that depends on how good the players are and has no relation to the character as much as it is a popularity contest

 

[John12346]

People, 20% of the community uses MK, not 11%.

The 11% value I came up with at first was a miscalculation.

 

[B.A.M.]

Lol I love AZ and his BS. Thank u for calling it out BPC.

@john12346: LOL how about you put the money earned by M2K TYRANT ANTI AND ALLY plz thank u! The ratio I asked for would be nice as well Mr. Rock the world.

 

[Mew2King]

I don't think that's really a problem, when I have attended every single national there has been. Ranging from 1st/2nd at big EC and md/va events, winning big events in TX, every single WC event in past 2 years, and have been to every single national there has been. I even went as far as to take 2 years off OF COLLEGE just to do this.

And I am sure this also
1) inspired more people to pick up MK
2) people saw my vids and copied things, since I have more available youtube videos to copy the dominant strategies of than anyone.

those have a bigger impact than you would think. You can't put a number on it but I really do believe that would have a big impact.

 

[TKD]

It's as simple as this: SSBB is so gay, that players that don't main MK should probably 2nd him (unless their char does well with MK as a teammate). If you play DDD, you should 2nd MK. It's not that bad: MK dittos reveal skill levels with very consistent results.

Do I play Fox/MK because MK's broken? No.
I play MK because SSBB is so gay that Fox is 0-death'd by Pikachu and IC are a terribly dumb match-up for him. If MK was gone, I'd go Diddy for the same effect: beat Pika, beat IC, even beat Marth.

 

[Cassio]

Yeah, Tuen's post doesnt put the information into context. Sort of interesting though, and interesting theory about the repeat thing.

lol.
I always see you say **** like this but you never, ever back it up.

If you have time to keep up with multiple active threads and reply consistently throughout then you have time to put together your so called evidence.

I've literally never said that about anything else before, lol. And I dont really keep up with threads, I just post from the most recent stuff or if someone quotes me.

 

[Conviction]

that depends on how good the players are and has no relation to the character as much as it is a popularity contest

Choose one

1) 11% is a lot
2) 11% isn't a lot

because what I'm getting right is.

1) 11% Isn't overcentralization.
2) Even though this 11% is winning a lot of money it's due to the overcentralization popularity contest.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No centralization (following Mike's 11% to M2K's 20%) but that rough 1/5 of the community using that one character is making up to more than half the money put out this year.

No problem. Right?

Why would you ever ban a character for winning more money than any other character? Would you ban Snake for winning a one million dollar tournament?

 

[Ripple]

I don't think that's really a problem, when I have attended every single national there has been. Ranging from 1st/2nd at big EC and md/va events, winning big events in TX, every single WC event in past 2 years, and have been to every single national there has been. I even went as far as to take 2 years off OF COLLEGE just to do this.

And I am sure this also
1) inspired more people to pick up MK
2) people saw my vids and copied things, since I have more available youtube videos to copy the dominant strategies of than anyone.

those have a bigger impact than you would think. You can't put a number on it but I really do believe that would have a big impact.

most people I know extremely dislike how you play MK.

this thread is exploding