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A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

B.A.M.

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Fair enough, although Iono why its so hard to read in the first place.


Competitive Sports because the actual players should be seen as the characters rather than the ones playing the game. You see these owners are the ones spending money, picking up players, training them, and pitting them against other teams. You arent going to ask Michael Jordan about the rules and things about balancing the teams because its not his money ( although he owns a team now lol) it would be absurd for him to make the salary cap for teams. Again as Strong Bad said, you also have a huge committee that is not only unbiased but have been with the game for decades. Its a game whose core mechanics have stayed these ways for generations, the only way these changes are going to be made is through proper data analysis ( things like moving the 3 point line etc) .

In a competitive fighter we have just two entities really, the players and the TOs ( whom are also players for the most part). In essence, we are governing ourselves lol. In that kind of scenario you should also have top players who see the metagame as it is, so they can be asked about core concept rather than just a simple poll. When you have groups like these you need to have representatives from all areas so a concise decision can be made. Thats why I talked about other competitive fighters because they are far closer in similarities than any sport for obvious reasons. Theres no need to reach other there. Thats a whole different ball game ( stupid pun i know).

Look at Capcom, they ask players for their advice, ask them to play test and ask them what they feel needs to be attended to. They dont dictate what Capcom does in its entirety, but they do give Capcom a viewpoint they cant really see ie top level play. That perspective is HUGE when you are trying to create a competitive fighter.

Our rule set molds this game into a fighter, its what makes smash step out from lol party game to something somewhat worthy of competition. As such we should listen to top players opinions on some things because that can help make the decision that can mold this game into a better fighter. I mean even in your own posts you have recited how you think URC members are good players and know a lot about the game. Why would you? But you naturally understand that is needed to make a decision on something. We do it in all walks of life, ask experts ( granted thats dangerous nowadays because people dont seek truly validated information and such can be manipulated by 'experts') doesnt mean they control our lives. Just like Ally doesnt control their tournaments. But he might see something they dont. Why WOULDNT you ask him?



@Thiocyanide: On point again. Look SFP: I could definitely see why some people could be iffy about MK. Im not going to sit here and claim hes not the best character in the game. However that was hardly the argument for him being banned.
 

Orion*

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Top players should definitely have input, but they should have no influence on the actual decision-making past "Hey what do you think about x issue."

Hosting tourneys doesn't really qualify you either. Hell, Today doesn't even know how to make pools, so I can't even put her under "knowing how to host."
My dude you are ****** this thread LMAOO
 

Ralph Cecil

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Top players should definitely have input, but they should have no influence on the actual decision-making past "Hey what do you think about x issue."

Hosting tourneys doesn't really qualify you either. Hell, Today doesn't even know how to make pools, so I can't even put her under "knowing how to host."
Actually Today planned on doing pools differently, but someone insisted that doing it a different way would make the tourney run smoother, but you already knew that. =D
 

Cassio

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Like, I make statements that are at the very least pretty logical and suddenly I have a bunch of angry smashers calling me names and ****.
This would be fine to say if you didnt say things like:
This video and the entire camp of people behind it need to educate themselves.
To most people it makes arguing with you pointless because it sounds like you've already made your decision regardless of what information is presented, and never even bothered to address important points instead making some blanket statement about them all being "wrong".
It isn't a perfect metaphor, but TOs are our best shot at creating a set of rules the entire community can enjoy.
Your analogy is bad because you fail to consider why owners are qualified to make rules in the first place. Owners in the NBA stand to gain or lose a lot and by a significant margin monetarily as compared to others should they implement poor rules and regulations. The monetary aspects in regards to Brawl is essentially non-existant. If anything the ones who stand to gain or lose the most in this way are the top players.
There is always going to be a chance that a TO is shamelessly pushing an agenda. That can't be ignored or discounted. On the other hand, if top player X and tourney organizer Y are legitimately out for the best thing for the community, I trust TO Y more because he or she will have seen all sides of things.
You've stated several times that TOs are better qualified to make rules, yet this is the closest I could come to an explanation as to why. And it makes....no sense at all.
 

Orion*

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Actually Today planned on doing pools differently, but someone insisted that doing it a different way would make the tourney run smoother, but you already knew that. =D
TO's require confidence to what they think is right in the moment based on their knowledge and experience, the same way that players are. You can get coached by someone else, but in the end you have to do what you think is right
 

Krystedez

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Choosing to not focus on Metaknight banned, SINCE IT IS NOT THE ONLY THING BEING VOTED ON is extremely valid, i'm not sure that i understand.
Looks like you don't care, since you obviously didn't read or get the point of any of my posts, nor have legitimately responded with any sort of defense except the above. If you think I'm arguing whether or not your focus was on the ban, you are wrong. The focus was on your entire video, the problems with your thesis and main points, and how you did the video overall.

If you agree that it wasn't clear at the very least, then I'd be happy with that and won't consider a non-defense out of you that unrealistic. However, continuing to stay silent and running behind that same defense that has nothing to do with anything I said, just makes me put you in even more of a negative light.

I just thought I'd throw that out there while everyone's having a party with this new conversation.
 

fkacyan

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Actually Today planned on doing pools differently, but someone insisted that doing it a different way would make the tourney run smoother, but you already knew that. =D
The way the tourney is run is the TO's job, and they can't shunt blame onto somebody else for the idea being ****ty. It was her call and she clearly didn't know how ******** it was or she wouldn't have let it get run that way.

If you **** up in retail your boss doesn't say "Well my employee messed up so you dont get a refund." He's responsible for your quality of work. The same thing operates here.
 

Ralph Cecil

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TO's require confidence to what they think is right in the moment based on their knowledge and experience, the same way that players are. You can get coached by someone else, but in the end you have to do what you think is right
Yeah, but it could've been just that Today trusted the judgement of whoever suggested that style of pools.

EDIT:Is experimenting with something really cause for this much hate towards someone lol?
 

fkacyan

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Yeah, but it could've been just that Today trusted the judgement of whoever suggested that style of pools.
That "style?"

Look, doing things wrong is not a "style." Setting pools up so you have four "second seeds" who arbitrarily get a bye is awful, and whoever thought of it should go back and retake basic math.
 

B.A.M.

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LOL i was going to post something else but this is too good. Iono how many post i feel like sigging from you.
 

Orion*

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Looks like you don't care, since you obviously didn't read or get the point of any of my posts, nor have legitimately responded with any sort of defense except the above. If you think I'm arguing whether or not your focus was on the ban, you are wrong. The focus was on your entire video, the problems with your thesis and main points, and how you did the video overall.

If you agree that it wasn't clear at the very least, then I'd be happy with that and won't consider a non-defense out of you that unrealistic. However, continuing to stay silent and running behind that same defense that has nothing to do with anything I said, just makes me put you in even more of a negative light.

I just thought I'd throw that out there while everyone's having a party with this new conversation.
Chill with the T word LMAOOO
=D Look you said whoever, & not Today. You're moving up in the world.
He said whoever thought of it, not whoever implemented it. Don't stop acting like you didn't just get booty ***** LMAO

^^BAM

do you have aim/msn/skype/fbchat/anything normal
SWF pms are like my last thing to respond to always XD
 

B.A.M.

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If I told you to jump off a cliff because itll make you stronger and you did who would be dumber one? The person who loses nothing from making that suggestion? Or the person who loses something thats theirs ( their life) because of believe that person on a whim?

EDIT: Orion: My aim is to the right. Bamreloaded.

DOUBLE EDIT: WTF am I doing I got Genetics chapters to study LOL
 

Ralph Cecil

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Chill with the T word LMAOOO


He said whoever thought of it, not whoever implemented it. Don't stop acting like you didn't just get booty ***** LMAO

^^BAM

do you have aim/msn/skype/fbchat/anything normal
SWF pms are like my last thing to respond to always XD
So I should continue to stop acting like I didn't "booty *****"? Will do. =D
 

AlphaZealot

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Today has run two tournaments with over 100 attendance and another two with over 60 attendance. Speak up if you have done the same? She is the one running the tournament. You can scream to the high heavens that she isn't qualified to make rules but it won't change the fact that she will, indeed, make the rules for the tournament she is running.

Whether a TO is running with the Unity Ruleset or with some other ruleset, they are still the ones making the rules for the tournament. The argument MikeHaze is (apparently) making is that TOs should be qualified to make rules, when this is in fact impossible - TO's are going to make the rules for their tournaments since it is their tournaments. That is really the end of it. I'll leave everyone now with a post ESAM made on facebook:

ESAM said:
Johnathan, you are less qualified then all of them. You should probably hop off of your own **** and actually let the people who discuss the rules when it comes to the whole country instead of your one ****ing tournament. Seriously. I left because I stopped TOing because I went to college, and the minor reason because they started discussing banning Brinstar, which ALL OF YOU ****ERS would agree with. There are representatives from every region in that place, some that aren't even dominated by MK. Xyro is there, who has hosted amazing tournaments. P1 is there who has hosted 100+ man tournaments in GA. T1mmy is there and he hosts tournaments in PNW every month. Chibo/AZ have already been mentioned. Ran is the reason that Louisiana had a scene.

And you know what is great about all of them? They actually play the game and know what the **** they are talking about, as opposed to the melee ****heads (♥ melee, don't get me wrong) and people that don't know **** about the game complaining as if it ****ing mattered to them.
 

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EDIT: Orion: My aim is to the right. Bamreloaded.

DOUBLE EDIT: WTF am I doing I got Genetics chapters to study LOL
Word I have residence paper forms to finish filling out unless I want to get deported back to no metaknight zone.

*frantically runs to desk*
 

Ripple

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Today has run two tournaments with over 100 attendance and another two with over 60 attendance. :

no she hasn't.

she ran the last 2 but the ones with over 100 were not run by her at all, she did nothing.

at 3, it was Radium and Hilt

at 4 it was hilt and clowsui


feel free to ask around, it's not big secret and I'm not trying to be mean but she didn't run them
 

Orion*

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Like. Inui runs amazing tournaments, some of the best I've ever been to (a lot). I seriously doubt you would take his opinion as seriously though as some others for many reasons.

Ability to run tournaments does not coincide with anything else. Nintendo runs tournaments... they also have items and ****. They also don't even care about the competitive factor of the game.
 

Krystedez

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no she hasn't.

she ran the last 2 but the ones with over 100 were not run by her at all, she did nothing.

at 3, it was Radium and Hilt

at 4 it was hilt and clowsui


feel free to ask around, it's not big secret and I'm not trying to be mean but she didn't run them
I'm pretty sure she got the venue for 3 and 4, and she ran 2 and 1, which got peoples' interests. Although I don't generally agree with how she runs her tournaments, she did get the initial attendance. It wasn't "oh, Radium and Hilt are hosting this one, we should all go".

But. 4 indeed would make sense to make that assumption with :)
 

Cassio

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AlphaZealot said:
TO's are going to make the rules for their tournaments since it is their tournaments. That is really the end of it.
When has anyone ever denied this point? lol. That wasnt even the point of the discussion.

Im honestly baffled how you came to that conclusion from Mike's argument.
 

B.A.M.

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Simple. its the easiest way to refute a problem; you make it up and expel it. Its da bess. Alright Genetics its on.
 

Cassio

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Honestly thats the perfect example of the kind of post that brings ill will to the URC. From all sides of the community.

P.S. I just realized how irrelevant that ESAM post is to this conversation as well.
 

fkacyan

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Today has run two tournaments with over 100 attendance and another two with over 60 attendance. Speak up if you have done the same? She is the one running the tournament. You can scream to the high heavens that she isn't qualified to make rules but it won't change the fact that she will, indeed, make the rules for the tournament she is running.
I've run four 40+ attendees tourneys, and more 20+ than I care to count. It's not really a question that I can host so much as the fact that I have real life obligations now that prevent me from doing so. Sadly, how efficiently I can get tourneys run, or whether I can run them at all, has nothing to do with whether or not my stagelist sucks or whether or not a pools scheme is ********.

Seeding top three out of 12 pools into a 48 man bracket is bad, period end of story.

The fact that you're willing to bully pulpit your ruleset, regardless of whether or not people understand the game, is probably the most worrisome sign of things to come in this community.
 

AlphaZealot

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Getting a venue and getting 100 people to show up was not done by hilt/radium/clowsui etc. She secured the venue. Prepared for the event. Etc. If your definition of "run" is simply running the brackets, then Strife doesn't "run" apex. This is all beside the point really though, since the discussion shouldn't be about just Today/SiiS but really about the concept MikeHaze puts forward.

Cassio said:
When has anyone ever denied this point? lol. That wasnt even the point of the discussion.

Im honestly baffled how you came to that conclusion from Mike's argument.
Mikes argument is essentially: TO's should be qualified to make rules. If I'm wrong here then why is most of what he talks about being TO credentials (and absurd things like asking people if they could even NAME the TOs, another knock at credentials).

My point is: question ALL TO's credentials then, not just the URC (which is why I brought up ESAM's quote, since he directly says the URC IS QUALIFIED while also saying others who are not in the URC are not).

So in a word: yes, people who are buying into this idea that TO's must be 'qualified' to run a tournament ARE buying into the idea that a TO shouldn't make the rules for the tournament they are running.
 

Ripple

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Getting a venue and getting 100 people to show up was not done by hilt/radium/clowsui etc. She secured the venue. Prepared for the event. Etc. If your definition of "run" is simply running the brackets, then Strife doesn't "run" apex..
she doesn't get people to show up, people coming to this get's other people to show up many people have said this.

she put it in a lobby in the school that wasn't even reserved If YOU recall, since you were there for 4.

and I didn't say she doesn't qualify TO, I said she did nothing for 3 or 4
 

fkacyan

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What tournaments have you held out of curiosity, and when was the last one? This isn't a call out of any kind, just my curiosity since you said it.
My last one was the second Paradigm, which was in very early 2010. I haven't been able to do much of anything since I work Saturdays now. :(

EDIT: Paradigm "series," Got Milk (Kind of?), a million and one Gamingworld events, a Terrabye event w/ Emukiller.

EDIT2: I think each football team should make the rules for their home stadium. That sounds like a fantastic idea.
 

Ussi

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Like. Inui runs amazing tournaments, some of the best I've ever been to (a lot). I seriously doubt you would take his opinion as seriously though as some others for many reasons.
I doubt he would even join the URC, just saying
 

-ShadowPhoenix-

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I understand that Metaknight is potentially banworthy, but 14-0 vote is ridiculous. The ruleset committee should have a healthy balance of pro and anti ban members. This also brings up another question I have, what is the point of having the BBR AND the URC? Excuse me if this is a stupid question, but i do not know much about how the brawl community functions as i am a melee player. The melee community runs fine with the MBR. I think the best thing would be to purge both existing groups and start over, BUT this time raise your standards on admitting people into the BBR. The MBR handles rulesets and tierlist stuff. Why can't the BBR do the same???
can someone respond to what i asked :(
 

Ussi

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BBR handles tier lists, MU charts, stage discussions, etc..

URC just handles rulesets


URC members are just whoever decided to join in on it. Anyone theoretically can join but there are moderate requirements to join, but its not super strict. Just so happened... most of the TOs didn't like MK for one reason or another. One of the TOs is anti-ban but didn't vote because the attendees wanted him gone so he decided to abstain his vote for the attendees.

unity got form because rulesets all over the country were different, and some people wanted unity, hence why this got formed. BBR's recommended ruleset was too liberal so people derailed anything the BBR ever came up ruleset wise and did whatever they want. People who try to host a tourney look at an example, and they didn't look at the BBR, they looked at what people used at tourneys. Now when new people try to get into TOing, they look at Unity since that's the most common ruleset.
 

John12346

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People are acting oblivious to the fact that although MK takes around 50% of the tournament money, that of all the MKs out there, they are actually around 5-6 people that made the majority of that money. No one ever says anything about that, people just keep talking about MK making money blah blah blah when its being made by our top players, which shouldnt be surprising.
Almost forgot about this, but this data should be enough to even satisfy these complaints...




This shouldn't require an explanation. Deal.
 

Tesh

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can someone respond to what i asked :(
I mentioned this earlier in the thread.

When you see a landslide or unanimous vote, you could think

A) Horribly biased group that all feel the same way about everything.

or maybe ...

B) The right answer is so obvious that it occurs to a diverse group of people.


If URC voted 0-14 against banning Smashville, would you suggest that its a biased group that needs the input of people pro ban against smashville?

Nope, you would probably say "well ofcourse no one voted to ban smashville, the majority of the community wants smashville legal"
 

Samuelson

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I mentioned this earlier in the thread.

When you see a landslide or unanimous vote, you could think

A) Horribly biased group that all feel the same way about everything.

or maybe ...

B) The right answer is so obvious that it occurs to a diverse group of people.


If URC voted 0-14 against banning Smashville, would you suggest that its a biased group that needs the input of people pro ban against smashville?

Nope, you would probably say "well ofcourse no one voted to ban smashville, the majority of the community wants smashville legal"
Such a logical fallacy.


If it was 14-0 for banning Smashville you would expect everyone to do the same thing?
 
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