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[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Didn't Krystal get a lot of requests during the Brawl era?

True true, I guess there is a few left that deserve credit but K.Rool, Ridley, Megaman, Isaac and Geno were in a league above the rest

 

[DerpingPikachu]

It's pretty cool to think that just about every big request got in eventually. Hopefully Geno is next. Too bad Isaac and Krystal couldn't make it though, they'd both be really fun.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

it doesnt matter who gets in because its not gonna be Layton and. Im going to be sad either way

 

[TheMightyP]

Ok, hear me out

Steve Minecraft
Maxwell Scribblenauts


Thank you for your time

 

[TheCJBrine]

That...doesn't really work, considering Mario RPG takes place in the world of Mario.

Smash 4 isn't Smash Ultimate. What happened then doesn't necessarily apply now. It would make more sense to say "Spirits disconfirming is dead" once a Spirit character actually becomes playable. Sure, Lucas & Mewtwo came back, but they were veterans. The same cannot be said for any future DLC characters. Is it impossible? No. But should it be considered likely? I would say, probably not.

If we "don't know what exactly is going on in his head" then we can't assume Spirits will be upgraded either.

There's simply no reason, at this point, to assume a Spirit will be upgraded when every other DLC pack has been entirely new to Smash. Unless, of course, there's something out there that implies that the dev team would suddenly upgrade a character.

I don’t think what’s been in this pass matters for the next pass given what Imran Khan, one of the big insiders, said, saying Season 2 was chosen around E3 this year. And while SMRPG is in the world of Mario, it still has its own unique sort of world with a lot of its own stuff. Yes, regarding what’s inside Sakurai’s head, you could say that, and then we’re at 50/50 which is great, but still.

Sakurai likes Geno, and has said he wants him. I’m sure he’ll still keep him in mind.

And really, the spirits argument is a huge buzzkill and always has been.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I feel like when it comes to stuff like spirits and assist trophies it makes sense they would take a huge hit to the likelihood of a character's chances but saying they outright can't happen just disregards too many possibilities.

 

[N3ON]

Didn't Krystal get a lot of requests during the Brawl era?

It'd be more apt to say he's the last that managed to retain their popularity. Krystal was popular back then, but so was Midna, so was Lyn, so was Bomberman, etc.

True true, I guess there is a few left that deserve credit but K.Rool, Ridley, Megaman, Isaac and Geno were in a league above the rest

Sort of. They're more like the ones that stuck it out rather than necessarily being the most popular then. Though some of them were.

 

[TheMightyP]

Tbh, if Spirits and Assists were in the same boat

It would be Waluigi getting upgraded, no contest.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don’t think what’s been in this pass matters for the next pass given what Imran Khan, one of the big insiders, said, saying Season 2 was chosen around E3 this year. And while SMRPG is in the world of Mario, it still has its own unique sort of world with its own stuff and many unique characters. Yes, regarding what’s inside Sakurai’s head, you could say that, and then we’re at 50/50 which is great, but still.

Sakurai likes Geno, and has said he wants him. I’m sure he’ll still keep him in mind.

And really, the spirits argument is a huge buzzkill and always has been.

The timing of the choices for Pass 2 indicates nothing toward Spirit upgrades, if that's the point you're making. There's no connection established, while content coming as DLC, even if we do look back at Smash Wii U, has been 7/8 DLC newcomers being 3rd party, with the only 1st party newcomer being specifically chosen from a new game. There's no connection there to upgrades at this point. Unless there's an indication that those choices were made differently (which according to Sakurai, they were chosen with "Nintendo making the decisions", just like the first pass), then I don't think there's an airtight connection.

Spirits disconfirming are a buzzkill only if your most wanted is already a spirit. Many fans here are disappointed, and I get that. But there are plenty of great 3rd party characters to choose from, and precedent suggests that the game could continue in that trend.

My point is, if popularity didn't get Shantae or other characters in as playable, why would that same popularity get them in as playable now?

If somebody has something convincing for that argument that I'd be sold. But I'm not convinced it's going to happen. It's not that the development team would be stopped by .png files, but if they continue on the same path, it continues to expand the crossover as Sakurai suggested.

I really should get that article finished to make my point.

NOTE: I've never said it's impossible for it to happen. I've said I don't expect it and explained why. Those two things shouldn't be confused here.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Geno might have some problems.

~Scantily Cladded~ #Smashbros #SmashUltimate pic.twitter.com/kodHqoxVIw

— Stoic Seraphim (@Stoic_Miiverse) November 8, 2019

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Tbh, if Spirits and Assists were in the same boat

It would be Waluigi getting upgraded, no contest.

It's fair to say spirits have a better chance anyway but we'll see what happens. With assist trophies yep Waluigi would be the top pick, the media coverage around his AT in E3 2018 was huge. I feel Isaac's chances would depend on whether a new Golden Sun game or remake is cooking at Camelot or not and how soon it'll come out which I do believe a couple of things point to it being the case but there is a chance it could mean nothing as well

 

[Deleted member]

I hope Geno makes it in or else I'm ****ing dead.

Wouldn't you be dead with a Sora reveal as well? lol

 

[Mushroomguy12]

It'd be more apt to say he's the last that managed to retain their popularity. Krystal was popular back then, but so was Midna, so was Lyn, so was Bomberman, etc.

I mean, most of the reasons those characters are not discussed are purely because they are Assist Trophies. If Assist Trophies ever got the chance to be upgraded I guarantee you all four of them would instantly jump in popularity the same way a lot of 3rd Parties previously thought to be impossible jumped in popularity in the past year. If a character like Porky can gain popularity solely because of his lack of a Spirit then those characters can definitely come back as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Wouldn't you be dead with a Sora reveal as well? lol

Yeah but I don't expect Sora so I can just pretend he doesn't exist for now.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate how everyone's jumping to 90% conclusions based on baseless rumors that aren't known by the higher-ups.

 

[Deleted member]

I think it would be more painful if Geno made it in, so it confirms that Spirits don't deconfirm fighters, but then like

It's just Geno. No other spirits, just Geno. Imagine all the Spirit theories and overhyping of certain spirits just for it to crash and burn in the end.

I doubt it.

it wouldn’t be fair to have just one so to make it fair I think there would be a few spirit upgrades but they’re all the remaining Requested 3rd party spirits(shantae,rayman) To continue the 3rd party chain(geno is owned by square so it counts).

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

There’s nothing wrong with wanting a character that is currently in a non-playable role. Obviously characters have to fill those roles.

We just have to remember, that unfortunately not every fan request will be answered. It simply isn’t possible. Precedent tells us the past, and our present with DLC is showing a similar outcome. It’s within reason to think we’re going to see more 3rd party characters from new companies and/or series in Smash going forward.

It’s not impossible that a character could be upgraded. There’s just...little to no evidence they would do it for particular characters at this point when they have a fresh selection of choices that would be fully new. It’s not a fan rule either, nor am I propping it up as such.

Speculation is making inferences or predictions based on information we have. I am making that prediction based on relevant information. It’s not a rule. It’s speculation.

That’s all I’m saying.

 

[Deleted member]

I think it would be more painful if Geno made it in, so it confirms that Spirits don't deconfirm fighters, but then like

It's just Geno. No other spirits, just Geno. Imagine all the Spirit theories and overhyping of certain spirits just for it to crash and burn in the end.

If they added him in but not Shantae or Rex I'm gonna ask some questions...no...A LOT of questions.

 

[N3ON]

I mean, most of the reasons those characters are not discussed are purely because they are Assist Trophies. If Assist Trophies ever got the chance to be upgraded I guarantee you all four of them would instantly jump in popularity the same way a lot of 3rd Parties previously thought to be impossible jumped in popularity in the past year. If a character like Porky can gain popularity solely because of his lack of a Spirit then those characters can definitely come back as well.

I'm not just speaking in terms of right at this moment, I remember how popular they were prior to being deconfirmed. They had popularity, they're still floating around, but it's not nearly as much as during the Brawl era. Bomberman's was rising again thanks to Super Bomberman R, but it was still short of where it used to be (and that's not even getting into how it basically evaporated for all of Smash 4).

The others are just suffering from a lack of pertinent recent appearances, as most characters do over time. Characters like Isaac and Geno and K. Rool are exceptional in that regard. When I say Isaac has retained his popularity I mean it hasn't decreased to any notable degree. It's actually probably increased.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I'm not just speaking in terms of right at this moment, I remember how popular they were prior to being deconfirmed. They had popularity, they're still floating around, but it's not nearly as much as during the Brawl era. Bomberman's was rising again thanks to Super Bomberman R, but it was still short of where it used to be (and that's not even getting into how it basically evaporated for all of Smash 4).

The others are just suffering from a lack of pertinent recent appearances, as most characters do over time. Characters like Isaac and Geno and K. Rool are exceptional in that regard. When I say Isaac has retained his popularity I mean it hasn't decreased to any notable degree. It's actually probably increased.

Isaac is a special case compared to the other Assist Trophies because he wasn't confirmed to be one until the final November Direct, so a lot of people believed he was playable until the very end. Characters like Bomberman, Krystal, Lyn, and Midna were confirmed earlier on. He was also the main character of one of the last unrepresented 1st Party series, at a time when 3rd Party expectations were much tamer.

 

[Shroob]

God I hate All Star Smash.


The amount of times I've hit 90+ Kos only to fall short of 100 is painful.

 

[TheCJBrine]

The timing of the choices for Pass 2 indicates nothing toward Spirit upgrades, if that's the point you're making. There's no connection established, while content coming as DLC, even if we do look back at Smash Wii U, has been 7/8 DLC newcomers being 3rd party, with the only 1st party newcomer being specifically chosen from a new game. There's no connection there to upgrades at this point. Unless there's an indication that those choices were made differently (which according to Sakurai, they were chosen with "Nintendo making the decisions", just like the first pass), then I don't think there's an airtight connection.

Spirits disconfirming are a buzzkill only if your most wanted is already a spirit. Many fans here are disappointed, and I get that. But there are plenty of great 3rd party characters to choose from, and precedent suggests that the game could continue in that trend.

My point is, if popularity didn't get Shantae or other characters in as playable, why would that same popularity get them in as playable now?

If somebody has something convincing for that argument that I'd be sold. But I'm not convinced it's going to happen. It's not that the development team would be stopped by .png files, but if they continue on the same path, it continues to expand the crossover as Sakurai suggested.

I really should get that article finished to make my point.

NOTE: I've never said it's impossible for it to happen. I've said I don't expect it and explained why. Those two things shouldn't be confused here.

I can see Sakurai prioritizing other characters sometimes, but I just think he may finally give in and go straight for Geno. The only other third-party I care about a lot is Steve, though I do like some others like Conker - and Doomguy is cool so I like him as well even though I’ve never played Doom; so, really, it’s getting to the point where I don’t really care as much after Steve and Geno, and would care more for some first-parties after them personally, but at least Banjo and Kazooie are here. Tbh I don’t really expect any Spirit to be upgraded except Geno’s, but I really think the only thing that you can base this argument on is Sakurai’s “new worlds” comment which he may not even be strict on and may make exceptions for, plus he could’ve been a bit vague anyway. They could still keep his spirit, too, and make his Fighter spirit something else or just his Ultimate render.

Of course, it’s fine if you or anyone else don’t expect it. I guess it’s just when someone who shows they want Geno or another character and are excited, and are told this spirits stuff and to temper their expectations, it just feels a bit irritating at this point, though I do understand why it’s said; because of some fans who go on a hateful tangent, but I don’t know... So, I guess, I just stay on the “they don’t disconfirm” side because I like to be optimistic and I don’t really see everything so strictly. I tend to start feeling like just going against the whole argument, especially after it being around all year and its reasons shifting away from what they originally were, but I don’t try to be rude or hateful or anything if I ever come off that way.

For Geno, we have some reasons to feel hype, but no one is going to trust them and I don’t want to spread info incase someone starts hating or completely dismissing it like in Newcomer Speculation sometime before, so eh...

 

[TheMightyP]

Just curious, but do you all honestly believe that Geno was as huge now as he was in Brawl? Like, no snide or snark here, but like, I just don't see it. Maybe I'm biased because I don't care for Geno, but I feel as if he was surpassed in popularity by many other characters, even in the Smash 4 days.

I mean, Isaac's campaigning got his Assist Trophy back, which is cool because we weren't 100% left in the dark this time around, but Geno hasn't had as big as a following...

And I was gonna go somewhere with that note, but I forgot how to finish it

 

[N3ON]

Isaac is a special case compared to the other Assist Trophies because he wasn't confirmed to be one until the final November Direct, so a lot of people believed he was playable until the very end. Characters like Bomberman, Krystal, Lyn, and Midna were confirmed earlier on.

I'm not just talking about the last year, I'm talking about overall since Brawl. I've been around to see it.

 

[Wademan94]

I feel like Geno, Rayman and Shantae should be the first spirits to be upgraded as they’re all third parties who are capable of bringing the same amount of content as the other DLC characters.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think there's something we can all agree on. If Thumbs Up Ken wins the Hunger Game simulator tomorrow, then that's clearly a message from the Smash gods and is objective proof that the mii video rumor is real. My logic is irrefutable.

I'm still routing for shoe mouse though.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Heading off for the night, but am totally down for tomorrow having an arena open! It’s Friday and I have a 3-day weekend!

Have a good one!

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like Geno, Rayman and Shantae should be the first spirits to be upgraded as they’re all third parties who are capable of bringing the same amount of content as the other DLC characters.

Definitely.

 

[N3ON]

Just curious, but do you all honestly believe that Geno was as huge now as he was in Brawl? Like, no snide or snark here, but like, I just don't see it. Maybe I'm biased because I don't care for Geno, but I feel as if he was surpassed in popularity by many other characters, even in the Smash 4 days.

I mean, Isaac's campaigning got his Assist Trophy back, which is cool because we weren't 100% left in the dark this time around, but Geno hasn't had as big as a following...

And I was gonna go somewhere with that note, but I forgot how to finish it

Now, yes, probably. But only in the last few months. In the decade between then and Brawl, he had definitely declined.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

There’s nothing wrong with wanting a character that is currently in a non-playable role. Obviously characters have to fill those roles.

We just have to remember, that unfortunately not every fan request will be answered. It simply isn’t possible. Precedent tells us the past, and our present with DLC is showing a similar outcome. It’s within reason to think we’re going to see more 3rd party characters from new companies and/or series in Smash going forward.

It’s not impossible that a character could be upgraded. There’s just...little to no evidence they would do it for particular characters at this point when they have a fresh selection of choices that would be fully new. It’s not a fan rule either, nor am I propping it up as such.

Speculation is making inferences or predictions based on information we have. I am making that prediction based on relevant information. It’s not a rule. It’s speculation.

That’s all I’m saying.

It's a fine statement to make, that's the point of speculation, to find what the most likely and plausible scenario would be. The real problem comes when people treat their speculation like hard facts without proper sourcing from Sakurai and act toxic about it. To sum it up we do have guidelines to what possibilities are more plausible than others but I feel we should be smart to not dismiss others. For a series that has broken a mountain of fan rules at this point we should take that into account

 

[Knight Dude]

Just wanna step in here and say that while Toby Fox is a hella talented composer and musician, Mick Gordon is just absolutely legendary. Dude puts an insane amount of work into each and every single track he puts out for whatever game he's doing. For example, for his redux of Jago's theme for KI 2013, he legit went to a monastery in Tibet for research and learned how to do the throat chants in the song. That's him being sampled; those are his vocals. Spinal's theme for KI 2013 was recorded with an actual kangling, a horn made from the femur bone. The dude is just insane.

There is a reason why people speak of him so reverently.

Smooth Criminal

Spinal's theme contains the powers of 5 CONTINENTS! And ain't **** in Antarctica. That's almost a Spirit Bomb's worth of power.

Didn't Krystal get a lot of requests during the Brawl era?

I think Dixie also applies, but she had been overshadowed by K.Rool. Though in general, many people were still asking for her. Though yeah, Isaac's one of the other bigger requests. Crazy to think most of the Brawl era fan requests are fully playable. It'll be interesting to see what other eras of fans will genuinely want. Obviously I got the **** I'm shilling for/looking forward to. I guess stuff like B.Dee, Elma and Spring-Man would count as such.

 

[TheMightyP]

I'm honestly more of a guy who tends to shill modern picks over the big picks from like 2008. Like, I would have liked K. Rool in, but he wasn't that big of a deal to me, I was on and off on Ridley, Banjo and Geno I wasn't really crazy about.

Really, the only exception is Isaac, but even then I was content with him being an assist, because at least I got SOMETHING. Plus Plant healed the wound quickly.


I really am a zoomer. You guys are OLD.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Isaac and Banjo were my ballot picks.

So yeah, would have loved Isaac as well.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Today's been long and eventful. Time to sleep.

 

[Zinith]

FYI, "You just like the character because you've known them for longer than I was born" is not an argument

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Just wanna step in here and say that while Toby Fox is a hella talented composer and musician, Mick Gordon is just absolutely legendary. Dude puts an insane amount of work into each and every single track he puts out for whatever game he's doing. For example, for his redux of Jago's theme for KI 2013, he legit went to a monastery in Tibet for research and learned how to do the throat chants in the song. That's him being sampled; those are his vocals. Spinal's theme for KI 2013 was recorded with an actual kangling, a horn made from the femur bone. The dude is just insane.

There is a reason why people speak of him so reverently.

Smooth Criminal

Amen but, like, the fact that we haven't gotten a single remix by David Wise is an actual crime punishable by death.

 

[TheMightyP]

Hey, I bet you guys didn't know that Nintendo announced a new game. Yep.


It's uh... a Crazy Taxi game to simplify things a lot.

 

[Knight Dude]

I feel like when it comes to stuff like spirits and assist trophies it makes sense they would take a huge hit to the likelihood of a character's chances but saying they outright can't happen just disregards too many possibilities.

We got Echo Fighters/Clones of Third Parties with Richter/Ken, thus showing that multiple characters from a single Guest franchise can be playable. With Chrom we see that someone who's in another character's Final Smash can be fully playable. I would say things aren't as set in stone as some think. Does it mean it's likely? Not exactly, but it isn't set in stone.

ATs I think are a bit harder to gauge though, they have a more complex gameplay function than showing up for a Final Smash, and many of them do things that only they can do, or maybe one or two characters can do. But would they replace Spring Man with Spring-Tron? Isaac with Felix/Matthew? I don't know.

Spirits I think are in a unique situation, they aren't even trophies, just PNGs of characters. But the fact they got that role means they weren't likely considered for DLC in the Pass. Though post Pass DLC is fair game. On top of this, BOTH Mewtwo AND Lucas were trophies in the last game, but got to be playable DLC in Smash 4, getting newer trophies on top of the ones they did have in the base game.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Hey, I bet you guys didn't know that Nintendo announced a new game. Yep.


It's uh... a Crazy Taxi game to simplify things a lot.

I did know.

Looks bonkers. Would like to see it localised but I'd never have a second player to play it with.

 

[Knight Dude]

Hey, I bet you guys didn't know that Nintendo announced a new game. Yep.


It's uh... a Crazy Taxi game to simplify things a lot.

It looks pretty fun actually. Though really, without the attitude and Offspring songs, can it REALLY be called a Crazy Taxi type game?