A request to make Game and Watch good.

[Debra washingbeard]

Let me start things off by saying game and watch is the coolest character in smash history. Not just because of his gooney, quirky move-set, but because he combines the raw power, The speed of a spam artist, but is as fragile as a baby.
No one is doubting game and watch is better than his melee incarnation, and has even seen a lot of buffs throughout project M; but the fact of the matter is game and watch is bottom tier. This makes me a sad panda because I have been a game and watch main in brawl, and played him for fun in melee. but i just cant play as him and win. Let me just refresh your memories: game and watch was mid tier in brawl, and he is even worse in project M respectively (brawl G+W had faster, stronger down smash, and I recall getting kills with up smash at around 70 and it was faster, and i cant seem to kill with a fair off stage in M. Oh almost forgot, all his kill moves in M are vertical). Add in the fact that the rest of the cast has gotten massive buffs and game and watch is better suited for the brawl atmosphere, you have a formula for a truly rotten character.
"what do you mean? game and watch is awesome, I run train with him all day!" okay settle down, no one respects you for being good with a bad character, play anyone that is halfway decent at the game and your going to get stomped.
Now that we got that settled. How do we fix these issues? well your all game and watch mains, so you know he is not a combo oriented character (with the exception of manhole Nair). he hits hard and he dies easily. Game and watch needs to match ganon in terms of killing power. up air is useless, I would make it like a vertical version of link's Zair or fish move, fair needs to be like a ganon fair on initial start up and have its current damage on the sour spot. The key needs to stay and fall and spike like in brawl, and bring back the key cancel (give us some advance techniques, were calculators, not tards) Also parachute on recovery needs to return for mind games and aid recovery slightly. bair needs to shield poke again and link more reliably. down smash needs a faster end lag, up smash needs to be stronger and/or have a faster startup, forward tilt should be a potential kill move, and I would like to see man meat be faster when used repeatedly and should be canceled at anytime by hitting L to punish a careless approach.
Lets face it, game and watch blows and is in need of the majority of these buffs in order to be a competitor. make him lighter if he proves to be too good. Will G+W, the abortion survivor, ever be able to go toe to toe with shiek or snake?
P.S Kirby (the second coolest character on the roster) blows too.

 

[Soft Serve]

Except GnW is most definitely a combo-oritented character, and most of his killing power is horizontal, with Fair being a very strong kill move and Nair being obscenely strong for how gigantic it's hitbox is. He might not be the most aggressive as he doesn't have a true approach, but where he shines in in his ability to capitalize with his crazy combo game off of a punish. He also isn't that fragile, he has a very versatile recovery (jumping after up-b is fantastic) and is the same weight as fox, significantly better than what he used to be.
I'm not the best GnW player but I'm certain that his problems arise from having a lacking neutral game, not from his recovery, damage output, or kill power. Most of what you suggested have been debated over very often.
He doesn't play exactly like his brawl self (you can't just use dair as a giant defensive option anymore, you don't have the brawl nair for strings, etc) but he is still strong in many areas and needs a bit of help in only a few. Mainly he is out ranged by a lot of the cast and struggles against projectiles.
(Kirby is amazing as well, I don't know what you're talking about.)

 

[Italia06823834]

I'll try to cover all your points. The quoted sections aren't necessarily limiting to what I'll say below, they're their to show you where I am in your post.

I recall getting kills with up smash at around 70 and it was faster, and i cant seem to kill with a fair off stage in M. Oh almost forgot, all his kill moves in M are vertical

Huh? Both Nair and Fair will kill of the side easily. USmash will definitely kill characters off the top at 70%. Gatling USmash or DACUS both work great. Also he can go super deep to edgegaurd and his D-tilt gimps amazingly well.

okay settle down, no one respects you for being good with a bad character

I would.

well your all game and watch mains, so you know he is not a combo oriented character... he hits hard and he dies easily. Game and watch needs to match ganon in terms of killing power. up air is useless

He most certainly is combo oriented and rivals Ganon for strength on some move. Chain grabs on fastfallers and UThrow combos into anything fast fallers and others at lower percents. UAir and Bair are amazing for juggling. With his Amazing recovery and Bucket Braking he should live a lot longer than his weight would suggest. Also the Key will spike.

give us some advance techniques... Also parachute on recovery needs to return for mind games and aid recovery slightly

Gatling, SHDB, DACUS.

Parachute recovery is not needed. He can act and jump out of UpB which is way better than the parachute recvoery. This allows him to chase people vertically with UpB to finish combos with Nair/Fair. Bair does shield poke still and is safe on shield with an L-Cancel (you can up B away). F-Tilt is great for defense with its long lasting hit box and clashes with practically everything. Wavedash -> Ftilt is pretty decent too.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Tl;dr but you need to learn to play kid. Watch some vids. Read some posts. Don't waist my time with these threads.

 

[Juushichi]

This is an... interesting thread to say the least. Full of colorful ideas.

However, I think that he is in a pretty good place. We (I) and some more PMBR members with active tournament GnW players are looking to shore up some of the weaknesses in this character. For now I would suggest playing some more, testing some new strategies and watching your fellow players.

All of them offer interesting directions to take our character. Dakpo is currently the strongest player of our character. Oracle who now plays ROB and Lucas has put quality time into GnW. There is Meiling, Dettadeus, Green Ranger (who is a very strong Melee DK who has picked up GnW), myself, darkm3troid, Meta and many others who have put a lot of time into this character. Take some looks at them!

It's nice to see another person feel so strongly about this character. Thanks!

 

[Debra washingbeard]

cool thanks for the feedback. i dont really play much GnW much in 3.0 because when i do i usually end up getting 3 stocked so i just **** **** up with sheik instead. my point is there are just so many characters that out shine game and watch that there is no reason for me to play him other than sentimentally. Ill check out those guys, you suggested because I dont think iv ever seen a G n W player on stream or in tourneys.

 

[Debra washingbeard]

also i was told bucket brake wasnt in M, so i never really tried to do it.

 

[Debra washingbeard]

Tl;dr but you need to learn to play kid. Watch some vids. Read some posts. Don't waist my time with these threads.

if you didnt read it then how did it waste your time? Money match me scrub. i beat ken in PM.

 

[Dakpo]

GnW isnt out shined by other characters very much. Any tier list isnt very important because the distance between the top and the bottom are not very far unlike normal smash games. Check out some of my videos. GnW has one of the most powerful Combo Games out of all the characters and has frame 1 punishing capabilities that lead into combo. He's super disjointed and really strong. I think you just need a little bit of guidance

 

[Dakpo]

, so you know he is not a combo oriented character

http://youtu.be/2hYO9BTtwbM?t=2m19s

 

[Italia06823834]

http://youtu.be/2hYO9BTtwbM?t=2m19s

That was awesome haha. Question though, I never really see you boost grab or Gatling. Why not?

 

[Touching_Everything]

I kinda would like a little hop(something for recovery) on the neutral air(similar to ivysaur)
because if you a little bit underneath the stage, you're dead... I would like a little hop to align myself.

I feel that side special is to risky to use with a slow start up and much lag at the end.

I also hate his smashes. I would like if they got rid of the kill power in exchange for something that comes out faster.
Like down smash- I would like that move if you could use it short hop and air. From back or fourth, (or a good spike... thing.
Up smash i feel is the worst.. I could never land it, it only clashes never cancels. Killing is good but foxes up smash seems to have the same killing power comes out faster and has less lag.

I'm pretty scrubby- So my opinion is pretty ****.

 

[Dakpo]

That was awesome haha. Question though, I never really see you boost grab or Gatling. Why not?

Whats a boost grab? I don't like gattling to much. I like canceling dash attack into grab sometimes, but I still am not sure when to cancel it into upsmash. I use Dacus plenty though.

Up smash i feel is the worst.. I could never land it, it only clashes never cancels. Killing is good but foxes up smash seems to have the same killing power comes out faster and has less lag.

I'm pretty scrubby- So my opinion is pretty ****.

I feel like up smash is one of GnWs saving graces. Dacus is gooooodlike and nets me a lot of kills. I don't like Dsmash very much. Fsmash is ok

 

[Italia06823834]

USmash is tough to hit. You can't just throw

Whats a boost grab? I don't like gattling to much. I like canceling dash attack into grab sometimes, but I still am not sure when to cancel it into upsmash. I use Dacus plenty though.

Boost grab is the canceling of the dash (on hit) into grab. So basically the same as Gattling but with a grab. I think the timing for both should be about the same. At least it feels that way to me. I'm not very good at DACUSing yet, so the surprise Gattling usually works great. Its about an automatic 30% damage if you land the dash attack. Plus you can easily chase with UpB. Can be tough to find an opening to get those first frames of dash attack to hit though. Seems to make a decent punish for missed smash attacks.

Though, playing with some people today Bair > Judgement makes a hilarious combo provided you get anything over a 3.

 

[Soft Serve]

for it to be a Boost grab it doesn't have to hit. GnW is unique as far as i know with the ability to hit with the DA hitbox and boost grabbing.

 

[Juushichi]

Whats a boost grab? I don't like gattling to much. I like canceling dash attack into grab sometimes, but I still am not sure when to cancel it into upsmash. I use Dacus plenty though.

I'm still not quite personally comfortable getting DACG, but I've been using a bit more gatling recently. I don't laud it like Meiling does, but it gets plenty of use. I think vs most characters, Dakpo, it should carry properly between 30%-60%, netting some good damage on hit or decent positioning on whiff.

My raw DACUS game is a bit weak compared to most, but I do try it. I don't have any idea how you land so many, haha. Good **** though.

I feel like up smash is one of GnWs saving graces. Dacus is gooooodlike and nets me a lot of kills. I don't like Dsmash very much. Fsmash is ok

Mentioned before, but I like U-Smash and it's uses. Not too much to say here.

I think F-Smash is pretty okay as you mentioned. Versatile, but not amazing. It's a pretty decent punish in many cases. Finishes some CGs at the ledge vs FFers w/ enough knockback to get a good followup. Good spacing punish, decent whiff punish.

Dsmash... it's pretty dang niche. It's got some pretty good reward on different hits, I think. But it feels almost too slow to really use. It is a good platform tech punish, an okay whiff punish sometimes. Maybe a bit too slow for spacing punishes?

If I were to give them all letter grades:
Up Smash: B
Forward Smash: B-
Down Smash: C... could be C+ if I just figured the damn thing out.

 

[Italia06823834]

for it to be a Boost grab it doesn't have to hit. GnW is unique as far as i know with the ability to hit with the DA hitbox and boost grabbing.

I thought he had to land the hit, guess not. What's the timing/input then? The same as DACUS (but with Z to grab instead of an UpSmash input)?

Also, if that's what you call a boost grab, what would you call the one on hit? Just so if I ever bring it up to someone I don't want them looking up the wrong thing.

 

[Soft Serve]

To boost grab you can literally just press A and then Z while running, its not too strict. Landing the hit makes it easier though because you are in hitlag and that would widen the window. The easiest way to tell if you got it would be if the little puff of air from DA happens and you grab. If you have Melee you can practice the timing with Sheik and Doc as those are the most apparent, Sheik goes a lot further and Doc/Mario always make the "wahuuu" noise when you DA so it comes out for the boost grab.

I don't know what to call it specifically when it hits though.

Boostgrabs work a bit differently in pm compared to melee though. I have no idea why you can do a turnaround grab out of a DA with GnW but its amazing and I hope it was intentional. they work similarly to DACUSs although I'm not sure if the jumpsquat value is important or not. Some people like melee terms over brawl one so they like to call dacus's boost smashes. DACUS= boostsmash and DACG= boostgrab,

 

[Italia06823834]

Oh alright. I guess I've kinda been doing that already. I can't visualize it now but it does the standing grab I think So like a jump canceled grab, but you get that bit of slide too.

I've been calling the one on hit Gattling Grab because the name kinda fits I guess.

 

[Dakpo]

ahhhh that clears things up.
DACG= Boost Grab
And to my knowledge, you have to connect the Dash attack to initiate the grab

 

[Yung Mei]

http://youtu.be/2hYO9BTtwbM?t=2m19s

oh my ****ing god dude


is there any way that you could get me the raw of this? i wanna use it in our vid

ALSO, to Boost Grab, dash attack doesn't need to hit. The timing for DACG would be Dash Attack with A, then press R almost immediately (Basically, almost at the same time, but R after A). You can also turn around the grab by doing (assuming you're facing right) DashAttack, <-+R

 

[Metmetm3t]

Even if you didn't need to hit. Game and watches boost grab out in the open would be useless since he would just do a dash grab.

 

[Yung Mei]

Even if you didn't need to hit. Game and watches boost grab out in the open would be useless since he would just do a dash grab.

yah, generally i wouldnt go for no hit DACG, since it leaves you wide open to get booty blasted. With Hit DACG is WAYYYY better.

 

[Debra washingbeard]

http://youtu.be/2hYO9BTtwbM?t=2m19s

yeah i saw this video. good stuff. didnt know man meant semi spiked.

 

[G13_Flux]

i think dsmash definitely has its uses, its just the kind of move that needs a good read to go with it. i will agree that the platforms are one of the better places to be using it.

 

[Nguz95]

wavelanding onto platforms to cover options with dsmash is amazing. Literally no reason not to use it on fast fallers.

 

[Crulex Crystallite]

With GnW, he's got a very strong combo and juggle game, and his tilts can be quite threatening. He may not move fast, but his aerials and L cancels are very quick, maybe save for Nairs.

the only true weakness I see is when he's juggled and falling from above, he's pretty vulnerable. Bucket stalling and Dair trades can only do so much.

 

[asd_]

well your all game and watch mains, so you know he is not a combo oriented character

rofl

all credibility lost

gdubbs certainly isn't top tier, but there are many more chars that need buffs over him. he's in a good spot.

if anything, some small quality of life changes (specifically increase in shield size, tech and techroll speed since they are on the far low end of the spectrum) would make him perfect. this would help slightly when gdubbs is pressured to return to the neutral game (his main downfall is a weak defense)

he literally doesn't have one bad move; great spacing/power/duration on almost all of his moves, and many of them come out instantly

the luls when i see people saying he has a bad downsmash..lordy lord

 

[phish-it]

I want to suggest some changes for G&W's bucket. I mainly use this attack when recovering to delay falling speed, but as far as absorbing projectiles, I seldom find the opportunity to use it. In fact, I don't I think I've ever actually been able to bucket 3 projectiles and unleash it in a singles match. The reason being is that at full distance between your opponent and you, they opponent is more hesitant to use their projectiles (which is actually a good thing), plus most of the fast ones are very weak (Fox/Falco's lasers, pit's arrows etc.).

However, against projectiles that can be used as an approach I find it more trouble than it's worth to attempt to bucket them due to the lag of the attack. Mario's Fireballs, Ness' PK Fire you basically need to read when the opponent is going to use these attacks when approaching, to absorb them, but if you misread they can get in and punish you in the lag from the bucket. Mario's fireballs are even tricky to deal with because he can be ambiguous when throwing them out and have them bounce over you should you try to bucket from the ground, covering the air with a fireball and he can come in on the ground and grab/dsmash you.


Now in teams, this tool can be extremely devastating if you have a teammate with relatively strong energy based projectiles that can be absorbed. For example, 3 uncharged lucario aura spheres guarantees a 1 hit ko when unleashed. This is really polarizing because the move is somewhat impractical in singles (to absorb) but a powerful game changer in teams.

Personally I'd rather see the bucket have less lag on it (make it jump cancelable for example) and also normalize the power on it when absorbing projectiles. I'd rather have it be more practical in the neutral game against energy projectile based characters but with a less overcentralizing reward on it 3 moderately weak projectiles shouldn't necessarily be a 1 hit ko.

Compare it to other absorption/reflection down b's. Fox/Falco/Ness/Lucas all have these types of skills which can be jump cancelable and have a hitbox on them. Game and Watch has neither of these.

 

[proxibomb]

With the amount if combos he has and the potential is down-b has, he truly is a crazy character. I see him getting a slight nerf from the down-b though, three catches and a direct hit from the oil is usually an instant KO. I wonder if they'll ever make his pan have a ping sound or make the pan a strong attack when it hits directly.

 

[KABO0S]

I like the JC bucket idea. Let's get that implemented

 

[WillieDangerously]

Personally I'd rather see the bucket have less lag on it (make it jump cancelable for example) and also normalize the power on it when absorbing projectiles. I'd rather have it be more practical in the neutral game against energy projectile based characters but with a less overcentralizing reward on it 3 moderately weak projectiles shouldn't necessarily be a 1 hit ko..

I respectfully agree and disagree. I agree he should have less lag on the bucket, but I feel like the charge power should remain the same. I'm not sure if this would be a tad OP, so I respect if this is a bad idea of mine.
I recently educated myself on the current bucket mechanics from another thread on this G&W board, and found it to be quite interesting.
More to the point, if you feel that you are unable to fill up the bucket completely, perhaps you may want to consider attacking on two stocks of the bucket? It's generally not as strong, but still rather damaging and, if used correctly, can also have quite a hefty knockback.

 

[KABO0S]

I respectfully agree and disagree. I agree he should have less lag on the bucket, but I feel like the charge power should remain the same. I'm not sure if this would be a tad OP, so I respect if this is a bad idea of mine.
I recently educated myself on the current bucket mechanics from another thread on this G&W board, and found it to be quite interesting.
More to the point, if you feel that you are unable to fill up the bucket completely, perhaps you may want to consider attacking on two stocks of the bucket? It's generally not as strong, but still rather damaging and, if used correctly, can also have quite a hefty knockback.

Even one stock buckets can be utilized for edge guarding.

 

[Italia06823834]

I want to suggest some changes for G&W's bucket. I mainly use this attack when recovering to delay falling speed, but as far as absorbing projectiles, I seldom find the opportunity to use it. In fact, I don't I think I've ever actually been able to bucket 3 projectiles and unleash it in a singles match.

You can release the bucket early by pressing B again. Even with 2 (or even 1) Fireball from Mario (who likes to approach with projectiles) this is a pretty powerful attack.

 

[phish-it]

I know you can release it early, what I'm saying is it feels overwhelming to be able absorb 3 relatively weak attack in teams for example and have it be a one hit ko. If the bucket is made jump cancelable for example, that makes it safer and more reliable to use, which means it'll be easier to fill the bucket up, but if you can fill it up easily it shouldn't be so powerful.

 

[Dakpo]

Downsmash only has one good use. If your opponent is bad and cant tech down throw. Dtilt and Grab can cover any other option and lead to kill combos. F smash is kinda good. Its a nice "you screwed up so bad I get a free punish". Its ok to have 2 mediocre smashes. The character is fine. I would love to see jump cancel bucket. I think it would be really fun and innovative. The character will lose his bad match-ups and win his good ones. Just stop nerfing him and leave him alone. HES DONE! STOP PMBR

 

[phish-it]

Down smash is a good option off of a tech chase, especially after a down throw on a small platform.

 

[Nintendude]

Bucket's fine the way it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZvCzyy4Yws&t=3m30s

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

With g&w now that I actually started playing with him isn't bad at all. There are times I wish his jump was 1f slower just to make dacus more reliable, especially when I use upb over his wave dash most of the time. Wouldn't mind if g&w got a slight weight increase to 80-85 since olimar Zelda etc are at 90. It would give a little more time to bucket break since unlike brawl u can't cancel hit stun in 13 frames