Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[gir-sage]

Double Post, but lol mobile so I hope BJ doesn't mind and I call "its my thread anyway protection"

Since we have a resurgence in activity lately I suppose its time we get back to trying to finishing Matchup discussions as we probably wont have another patch for a while.

So everyone has been grabbed by a couple Captain Disjoints every few matches as he's pretty pick up and go and spam grab because lol Slowda. Fortunately for Zelda she can stuff most of his attacks and grabs with her faster moves like Dtilt and Jab. Even Nair has its use as its a mobile hitbox that Falcon can run into if he starts to make bad dash grab attempts. Phantom also can protect from grabs but I've had Falcon slip by P1 sometimes so its not perfect but its our best mid stage option on trying to not approach and invite Falcon in.

Falcon is pretty combo fodder and his recovery is weak so if we have got some good momentum going Falcons not so bad.

Falcons normals are good but Zelda can punish the heavier hits on block with on point punishes and even stuff these moves with her own moves. Avoiding getting grabbed is the big thing cause Falcon can really turn things around off of a grab because Zelda is not good in the air if she's up there not of her own volition and Zelda can only muscle her way down so much before Falcon catches on and has to run to the ledge. You want to try to hold the stage control so Falcon doesn't have room to run laps for most of the fight, because limiting his run space lessens the chance for surprise 60 mph kidnappings.

When by the ledge Zelda is actually very good at challenging Falcon to a dunking contest so if your confident in your ledge skills Zelda can go toe to toe with Falcon on the ledge. Even early on, a early morale break is a powerful thing.

I've fought Falcon all over but mostly on Omega stages or DH so idk where to best fight him since I'm unsure of his platform pressures. 50:50

When is the best time to throw a dair against Falcon?
below the ledge, or above?
Is it best to dair or nair?

Here's falcon's grounded up air to knee true combo (http://smashboards.com/threads/finished-grounded-up-air-to-knee-true-combo-percents.379471/):

30-40 Short Hop(Hit sourspot at 45, not sure if sweetspot can true combo)
45-60 Full Hop
60-80 Double Jump

 

[Zylach]

Yay! Back to regular MU discussion!

If we're discussing Falcon, I'll post this here for visual reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGTPYQPN_24&list=PL0zDWrbUVfyyzLdO_rylp-RrEZkP-3DQ8&index=5

That's me vs. one of Chicago's average players who went Falcon the whole set vs. my Zelda.

Falcon's neutral against ours is painful to experience. He's fast enough to run circles around us and there's nothing we can do about it. This means he doesn't have trouble pressuring us at all. Meanwhile, we can never pressure him because our neutral and approach game is so bad plus he can throw out moves for free against us. On top of that, he can land for free against us as well which is where Zelda really wants to take advantage of her opponent so it limits our ability to punish him.

What we do have is disjoints. Our jab can put in some work against him as he rushes in and out of our range. Jab is hard for him to take advantage of (though he definitely still can because he's 2fast4us so don't throw it out constantly). Nair can catch him if it's spaced properly as well since Falcon has no disjoints on his aerials but be prepared to trade a lot against him if you try to challenge his aerial game.

Thankfully, Falcon's offstage game isn't the greatest, but he does have a lot of recovery tricks that we have to respect before committing to an option offstage against him. I've found that using nair offstage against him is the safer option because of the multhits allowing us to catch him airdodging and so he doesn't get past us with the huge amount of momentum shift he gets when he uses his up-B.

Falcon does get combo'd kinda hard but not ridiculously hard because he still has fast options while we're using our slow ones to rack up damage against him so overcommitting to combos (strings rather) against Falcon will get us into trouble. On the flip side, Falcon can combo us for free all day. The only thing he has to worry about is us using our intangibility on Nayru's Love to get out and, if he suspects we'll do that, we eat a partially charged fsmash to the face which will kill us at 70%. Both of us will kill each other really early if we're not careful which makes the MU quite volatile. I'd still give the advantage to Falcon however because he racks up damage against us so much better and doesn't have to commit as hard to kills like we do (bair anyone?).

45:55 at best.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

When is the best time to throw a dair against Falcon?
below the ledge, or above?
Is it best to dair or nair?

Here's falcon's grounded up air to knee true combo (http://smashboards.com/threads/finished-grounded-up-air-to-knee-true-combo-percents.379471/):

Personally I feel we should always go for Dair because we dont want Falcon to get back on stage and start running around again. If he's below always go for Dair because he's as good as dead if were coming at him directly above. But like Zylach said his momentum boost from upB can throw off your timing making Nair the easier option. Both can beat upB and SideB. Also those Uair to knee percents he said didn't factor in DI, but its good to know about those areas.

Also Zylach and her hyrule heels lol remember if Falcon starts multijab we can mash Fair out of it in retaliation. Also if your getting juggled with Uair we can beat him to the kick with Dair cause the fub box is large enough but that's why I said we can't muscle our way down all the time or he'll catch us by waiting.

I would also really limit Nayrus use because dash grab is so fast and reaches so far. A badly timed Nayrus is just begging to be smashed or grabbed.


Falcon Bair is dumb but I'm pretty sure we could Utilt it I just don't test it and try
To space around it to read his response to missing bair.

 

[Zylach]

Personally I feel we should always go for Dair because we dont want Falcon to get back on stage and start running around again. If he's below always go for Dair because he's as good as dead if were coming at him directly above. But like Zylach said his momentum boost from upB can throw off your timing making Nair the easier option. Both can beat upB and SideB. Also those Uair to knee percents he said didn't factor in DI, but its good to know about those areas.

Also Zylach and her hyrule heels lol remember if Falcon starts multijab we can mash Fair out of it in retaliation. Also if your getting juggled with Uair we can beat him to the kick with Dair cause the fub box is large enough but that's why I said we can't muscle our way down all the time or he'll catch us by waiting.

I would also really limit Nayrus use because dash grab is so fast and reaches so far. A badly timed Nayrus is just begging to be smashed or grabbed.


Falcon Bair is dumb but I'm pretty sure we could Utilt it I just don't test it and try
To space around it to read his response to missing bair.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that whole double Lkick because of rapid jabs. Honestly, I see Falcon's go for rapid jabs like I see Ganon's go for utilts or like I see Mii Swordfighter. Falcons should always be going for gentleman's. If they go for rapid jab, it's a sign of an average Falcon player. I agree that Nayru's in this MU is dangerous. Don't do it unless you're sure the Falcon player will fall for it otherwise, you're dying at 60%.

 

[Rickster]

So...I was looking at the first page of this thread, and I'm really feeling like those MU numbers are very out of date. Like...all of them, lol. Are we gonna finish going through all the characters then loop back around, or should we just start over? Or should we revive the rediscussion thread?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So...I was looking at the first page of this thread, and I'm really feeling like those MU numbers are very out of date. Like...all of them, lol. Are we gonna finish going through all the characters then loop back around, or should we just start over? Or should we revive the rediscussion thread?

Its up to you gurls really. I feel we should give the already done matchups a once over since many of them were done before the shield stun patch which was one of the biggest game changer patchs. Another problem though is lack of activity. Even for some of the older discussed matchups some (like Bowser Jr.) boiled down to guesses and maybes and left some matchups feeling unfinished since no Zelda's played it and no opposing characters came to defend themselves even when invited. I would still like them finished even if its just us chatting since we can always rediscuss.

Personally I would like to have the reduscussion thread run alongside this one as there are still plenty of characters we haven't even started on.

 

[buzzard]

I think starting from scratch is a good idea. A lot of things have changed since release.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think starting from scratch is a good idea. A lot of things have changed since release.

i believe some information is still valid but an update is needed to the OP...except for the Zelda matchup because that will always be 40:60 Zelda

 

[Rickster]

I find that MU 40:60 ZSS, but that's just me


Totally stole that from BJN

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I find that MU 40:60 ZSS, but that's just me


Totally stole that from BJN

Ricky gurl got some thoughts on Falcon? We pretty dry in here and I know Falcon has touched you a couple times since game launch lol

 

[Rickster]

Ricky gurl got some thoughts on Falcon? We pretty dry in here and I know Falcon has touched you a couple times since game launch lol

Oh uh....well, everyone else already touched on all the big points. The problem is that I don't get to play many good Falcons, so I still feel a little inexperienced.

To me, I find watching his movement to be really really important since he's so fast. It can be hard to react sometimes. Learn how often he likes to dash grab, since we can spot dodge>Elevator if one misses (IMO that's a good punish for most of the cast's whiffed grabs, but especially good here since Falcon is so grabby). Try not to get predictable with rolls, since his Raptor Boost is bascially designed to destroy those. And don't even bother trying to punish his Bair. I really don't think we can do anything about it.

I find Utilt to be much more effective than dtilt at low %, since most of the time he can jab us out of a dtilt (the frame advantage on hit is seemingly 0 for both characters, so shielding should prevent this...but an Utilt can get you a lot more). Phantom as a landing option isn't bad either, at worst you'll probably trade, but it can get him off you. Jab is good as usual since the hitbox stuffs a lot of his ground approaches.

As far as camping goes, be very mindful of how close he is/will be! It's very easy for him to jump over our stuff and knee us right in the face. However, I've also used this as bait before, so it's not all bad.

Finally, if you do get grabbed, don't spam airdodge or jump. He will absolutely destroy a jumpless Zelda with Nair and Uair stuff. Best bet for landing is either the ledge or a falling Phantom.

The MU feels heavilly momentum based to me, but overall I say 40:60 maaaybe 45:55 on a good day.

I feel like I just repeated what everyone else said lol

 

[BJN39]

Rickster sisT Zelda ditto is 40:40 ZSS's favor.

Is it okay that I'm not gonna regurgitate everything? because you gurls are pretty thorough before I ever get in here. Usually I'm just adding notes in little quirks and stuff.

Basically don't use any move with some endlag because he can close the gap in 0 seconds.

Like Rickster said, at 0% and such percents Dtilt is not airtight for a follow up. Stick to Utilt at that time because you'll get 347314 of them and then a NAir.

Jab can do dirty things despite how fragile my its true walking capabilities should be. It's pretty much lag less and has some disjoint with no clank you know the drill.

NAir and DAir sour ofc can interrupt his recovery grab often and cancel it out with more penalty to him than us. Think Sheik's plan, which is BAir to interrupt his up b grab, only we use NAir or DAir.

We're juggle bait and will never be able to keep up with his movement secretkpop. IDK if I would opt for platforms? It doesn't sound good if we get stuck on one.

Really quirky thing I just thought of: Farore's reappear hits a tiny bit below the edge sometimes. I wonder what the consistency of it VS his extended hand during his up B is... We could probably troll his up b sometime when he feels safe and doesn't up b perfectly. :^) like, if we went into ledge cancel distance, he'd think he was safe... Then we hit his hand and ledge cancel into Dtaunt

I'd say 40:60 maybe 45:55 with two really good players. I'd like seeing more of the MU in action of course I'd like to see more Zelda in action in general.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So technically the Villager boards did lightly discuss us a long time ago lol. but it was a short flightly discussion. theoretically i feel Villager is an evenish matchup but i don't have any real hard proof to say so...when does Villager/Zelda even come up unless its lol customs.

Villager can't pocket Dins and if your wary about using Phantom too much you don't have to worry about him getting stolen from you. the Fairs are frustrating especially if your in the air because of its speed and those renegade Fairs to the face are a big pain but if you go slightly above Villager Dair will crush the pellets and can hit Villager too if he's close enough. i beieve the kicks can too but i'm not sure. most of Villagers moves are reflectable so good Nayrus use does pay off very well.

so i think Zelda should stay grounded more often and walk to Villager if you must approach. from a distance Zelda can kind of camp Villager with Dins cause the farthest he can reach you from is with Lloid, which can be avoided or reflected depending on the situation. Zelda can duck while walking to avoid the first Fair and block/reflect the second on. once she's close Villager can still outspeed her a bit but Zelda outreaches him enough to box with him upclose.

https://youtu.be/B6o626PwDFg?t=305

I've never attempted to aggressively edgeguard Villager since i don't encounter him much at all but here Ed does show you should really get out there and pop them bubbles. meanwhile we do have to worry a bit about the threat of bowling ball if we Faroes from directly below but coming back at an angle or on stage can avoid that. we can also reflect the bowling ball if we happen to be in a good spot to do so.

thoughts gurls?

 

[Zylach]

Villager is hard. The only one I've faced in a tournament setting was also one of the best. MJG and I faced each other in pools at Kings of the North and he proceeded to annihilate me and everything I love.

Since our approach game is so weak, we can't get in on Villager whose keep away game is the best in the game. At the same time, we can't outcamp the little guy so what does that leave us? Powershielding his projectiles while approaching gets us close to him but he's got tools to stop us from actually hitting him. His nair and uair will stop any and all aerial approaches while his ftilt, jab, SH nair, dair, dtilt, and utilt can all catch us on the ground. Most of those options are safe on our shield which allows him to get away as we drop our shield or hit us with something else. Zelda can't really get away with spam reflecting his projectiles because of how much endlag Nayru's has. We can reflect the first fair he throws at us but, if he's rising with it like he often does while spacing, the reflected fair won't hit him and we'll get hit by the falling fair as we're in endlag. We can't get away with sending out phantom to wall out his projectiles because of the amount of time it takes to charge phantom for it to stay out any considerable length of time such that it can actually protect us while we do something else. Villager will take advantage of that charge time and throw more rocks at us.

Villager doesn't get combo'd by Zelda because of his nair. Meanwhile, Villager can practically carry us across a stage with his fairs and bairs since we have no fast options to destroy his projectiles, no landing options outside of Nayru's Love (which is, again, going to be exploited by Villager unless he actually gets hit by a reflected rock in which case we've successfully reset to neutral against a character with, arguably, the best neutral in the game beside Sheik and Diddy), and airdodging at any point gets hard punished by him. Even Zelda's OoS game isn't useful here despite Villager's lackluster grab. All of Villager's aerials can be used safely against Zelda's shield so there's no opportunity for counterattack here. Zelda doesn't have the frame data to challenge him either as he has the air speed to run away from us before we can catch him (which also makes our fastest options useless as they only hit grounded targets) and his attacks all come out faster than our standard spacing tools.

The one advantage Zelda has here is that Villager can sometimes have trouble killing as long as we don't get close enough to him for an early hitbox fair/bair to be lethal and rngesus helps us out by giving Villager no triple turnips. Villager will be looking for opportunities to catch us in his fsmash as we try to approach because of how difficult it is to punish and how early it can potentially kill. Since we can reflect it, that gives us an opportunity to actually end his stock really early ourselves. The same goes for his tree which no Villager should be trying to kill Zelda with in the first place but the option is there. We can also attempt to bait out a pocket for our phantom 3 and try reflecting it if he throws it back at us. Super risky play but will kill at 0%.

Zelda has to shield so often against Villager but can't get anything out of it because Villager is so safe on shield and she doesn't have the run speed to catch him after powershielding anything. Villager will also be conditioning us to shield so he can actually grab us. Early percent dthrow into usmash is a guaranteed combo for him and late percent bthrow will kill so shielding, while necessary, is also dangerous. The one good thing, though, is that we can bait out his grab attempts and avoid them allowing us to get a punish in because of his bad endlag on grab. We can even challenge his grab with a dtilt or possibly even one of our OoS options when we know he's going for it.

This whole MU feels like Zelda has to cheese a victory out of Villager because he has all the advantages here.

35:65 at best.

 

[Rickster]

We've split into the Zelda Realists and the Zelda Cultists

I miss when Zelda was the only bottom tier that was cultist free.

Funny thing is that I was a cultist until I started playing actual good players and going to locals. Then I realized...

---

That MU has definitely gotten worse and worse as the meta has gone on. I mean, at the root of it, it's a character with horrible approach options trying to approach one of the best defensive characters in the entire game (possibly series even?).

Like the only redeemable things Zelda has is
- disjoints to get rid of luma
- transcendent priority to get rid of luma (a real blessing here, actually)
- killing her early
- harassing her offstage and/or dtilting her ledgesnap
- Din's Fire for Luma (although...I bet Luma can clank with it...)

The problem is actually getting in an advantageous state to do any of that, which goes back to my first paragraph. And even if you do get in, you can't throw combo her because of Luma and her floatiness. We can't follow up on a lot of things because Luma. Charged Phantoms basically don't exist. Juggling is a massive problem.

Sure, if Zelda gains an early lead it can be not-so-bad, but if you fall behind....may Hylia be with you.

---

For din's realistically all Rosa has to do is stand and medium to short range, or just out of Zelda's range to the point where she cant attempt din's without getting punished.
Same thing as in Brawl

As for recovery can't Rosa just DI highly most of the time, being super floaty with decent air speed?
Zelda's offstage game is only good when the opponent is recovering low, because all of her other aerials are garbage other than nair.
Zelda ain't gonna force Rosa to recover low, and when she does recover high, Zelda's too slow to catch her and punish lol.

Rosa could even just jump away from Din's like every other character can secretkpop because loldinsissoslow.

Yeah that's actually something I struggle a bit with. The only way we can really counter it is if we read it before hand or teleport into her.

Just to clarify, I'm definitely not saying this is an even MU. I'd say 40:60 at best, likely worse than that. Although stranger things have been said on this board before...

Like Yoshi and Pikachu being even and Zelda countering Bayonetta.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Now gurls this isn't the place to fight about other gurls opinions on a matchup regardless if we feel its wrong, delusional, enlightenment or not. That's not something I can use for matchup summaries lol.

Good luck to fujin on remaining unbannedt for a while I just pray the mods don't delete her post so I dont look like I'm talking to myself again :v

But onto Wii Fit trainer, or We Chase Trainer.

 

[Cress!]

There's a reason I main Wii Fit and not Zelda
Hint: One is viable, the other isn't.
Hint 2: Zelda is the one that isn't viable.
Hint 3: I can beat Philoz with Wii Fit because the bare feet make him woozy.
Bare feet : worse at fighting than the Balance Board

 

[JigglyZelda003]

There's a reason I main Wii Fit and not Zelda
Hint: One is viable, the other isn't.
Hint 2: Zelda is the one that isn't viable.
Hint 3: I can beat Philoz with Wii Fit because the bare feet make him woozy.
Bare feet : worse at fighting than the Balance Board

Now gurls... That's not something I can use for matchup summaries lol.

I did ask a serious question though as I have no good Wii Fit experience. (this is not including Macchi, because her connection with mine is too bad so I'm a sitting duck)

 

[Cress!]

Well Macchi is still knowledgeable on the MU, she wanted to cover it on the Wii Fit boards iirc.

@Macchiato @Macchiato @Macchiato​

With that out of the way I'll give a few thoughts that AREN'T related to feet maybe
-Zelda has a reflector. This causes Wii Fit to change up her game plan, but it isn't too hard to adjust. Zelda's reflector is slow so Wii Fit will be baiting it out with uncharged/partially-charged Sun Salutations and Headers. If Zelda sheilds instead, then Wii Fit could possibly grab, but none of those projectiles have enough stun to make Zelda sit there too long, so that's possibly her safest option. If she rolls, then Wii Fit can catch her with a dash attack, which can lead into other things depending on percent like Nair and Fair.
-Zelda is pretty tricky to deal with offstage since her recovery is a teleport that has a reappearing hitbox. Wii Fit can deal with this by hula hooping slow next to the ledge since it's her only disjoint and Zelda knocks away the ball when reappearing. Wii Fit could also fire a Sun Salutation, but usually there isn't enough time to charge it enough to make it launch Zelda enough unless charged beforehand.
-Zelda gets Nair comboed easily.
-Wii Fit can duck under a lot of Zelda's attacks and can dtilt her to punish her fsmash or something of the sorts.

I can't give a ratio because I'm pretty bad at them and that wasn't a look at the entire MU, just some stuff Wii Fit can do against Zelda. Macchi will give you a better analysis because I'm lazy

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Zelda has a ton of traits that Wii Fit really likes - she's slow (time to charge attacks), tall (few of WFT's attacks will whiff over her head), and has overall subpar landing options. Zelda doesn't have much to compete with that - I personally lament the matchup because Wii Fit just has so many options off stage, preventing Zelda from effectively edgegaurding. One advantage Zelda does have is with disjoints, which mean that when Zelda does properly outspace Wii Fit Trainer, she can deal some serious damage. Reflector can help, but a smart Wii Fit is always going to be out of the way of her own projectiles.

Something that could give Zelda an advantage earlier in the meta is WFT's love of the ledge - a regrab can be so easily punished with dtilt>followup (Lightning kick will kill at mid percents after a dtilt). Still, it's just a matter of the WFT adjusting in the matchup to make this less viable.

Overall, Zelda can sorta outrange her and has similar frame data for many moves, but WFT just has better aerials in neutral and is super adept at escaping disadvantage.
40-60

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I see the Red Tyrants have deleted Fujins post again so now Rickster has a triple post lol.

I decided to lump Doc and Pac together since I doubt anyone's fought much of either so discussion will probably be short and Doc is similar enough to Mario that alot of the same trash applies to him.

If Pac is lazy enough to let you get a hold of his fruit and we have a lead we can really have a field day here but realistically that probably wont happen often....i have not played a Pac I thought understood the character better than I did so I don't really have much to say here. His Dtilt reach can be obnoxious. Pac has trouble killing in general but added to Zelda because she can reflect his projectile setups and KOs . And since Pacs grab is lolsoslow we can actually block without thus giant fear of being grabbed like some other characters. I'm just gonna call it even cause I'm really just talking.

Doc can be annoying cause combos and leaving yourself open for a big hit can really spell death in the wrong place at the right time for Doc. I personally prefer dealing with Pills because they are easier to duck around and Doc moves slower than Mario so I dont feel as pressured when he's on me like Mario with his Zero Skill Spamusesque juggles. Doc can do this too but I feel Zelda deals with Doc better. Apparently our increased grab range can grab Mario after a blocked Usmash so I assume we might be able to do this to Doc too and possibly on other moves cause Docs range isn't the longest.

Doc is also easier to gimp so one good throw or Dsmash is the end of him at the right time.

 

[Lord Renning]

When is the best time to throw a dair against Falcon?
below the ledge, or above?
Is it best to dair or nair?

Here's falcon's grounded up air to knee true combo (http://smashboards.com/threads/finished-grounded-up-air-to-knee-true-combo-percents.379471/):

Hello really old post.

If Falcon is recovering up the wall, dair. If Falcon is recovering low, run off neutral air will catch most of the options. If Falcon is recovering horizontally, jump so your foot is just above where he head will be while boosting, and Dair at the first sign of a Raptor boost. Dair stays out for quite a few frames, so it should catch him at least with the weak hit.

If he's doing his wall jumps, he has to stay near the wall, and fast falling nair can drag him to down to death, and if you lean towards the wall while dragging him, the last hit can stage spike. Sometimes untechably. I found these to be the safest options. I don't like getting hugged or cranium punched.

 

[Rickster]

Just a reminder that every character can DI in towards the stage and tech our Dair (or any spike really) on the wall if they're close enough. I've only had this happen once to me out of hundreds of matches, but it's still there.

I mean you shouldn't worry too much about it. But I bet people who main characters with bad recoveries will utilize this a lot someday.

 

[Robert Lee]

Tips how to fight against olimar? Tough one especially since his camping game is better than zelda and is faster overall. Even with reflector, he hits hard.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-zelda.438660/

Hi Zelda mains. The Charizard boards are talking about the Charizard vs Zelda matchup.

Come on over and say what you think.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Pac-Man:
I feel like Nayru's Love shuts down Pac hard. It negates Hydrant as an effective landing option, as well as a good majority of his fruit combos. Up close, he doesn't have a whole lot of range, so Nayru's Love beats out a lot of his options. His grab is bad, so we can shield without fear. His UpB is easily gimped/spiked as well. He doesn't have much that can threaten us, but we do. If we play right, there isn't too much he can do (in my opinion).

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Pac-Man:
I feel like Nayru's Love shuts down Pac hard. It negates Hydrant as an effective landing option, as well as a good majority of his fruit combos. Up close, he doesn't have a whole lot of range, so Nayru's Love beats out a lot of his options. His grab is bad, so we can shield without fear. His UpB is easily gimped/spiked as well. He doesn't have much that can threaten us, but we do. If we play right, there isn't too much he can do (in my opinion).

Pac gets annoying when he starts going circles around us because he is quite quick, but we generally don't have to worry about the spam so much because of Nayrus

 

[Rickster]

I feel like a big disclaimer should be put in the OP saying "these are really really REALLY outdated and probably wrong" so we don't get accused of being Zelda Cultists

alternatively we can actually try having discussion again lol

 

[BJN39]

Well, I can't use my Zelda sparkles to facilitate discussion here, (nor do I get out to anything to really warrant my own having non-slightly-theory-craft opinions) but I can make it known that this could use some new dusT

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I like the "slightly outdated" editing done to my wonderful thread title girls :v.

sadly my old laptop that had all of my compiled Info is gone to the great beyond so we can just start discussing whoever. Even if it's just us as the stage changes rule is in effect and we haven't discussed for a long time.

anyone want to start?

 

[BJN39]

I think something that's necessary if/when we do just start up MU discussions is that we can let a lot of Zelda players know that it's happening.

And by that I mean we ought to make sure the Zelda discord knows.

Even if we've had strong disagreements in the past, we need more Zeldas to discuss to get a better consensus. Simply put, if (or maybe when teehee) we disagree on MU points at least we can argue why together instead of getting these crazy skewed and different results in 2 separate places.

This, and also maybe informing Zelda players any time we start a NEW discussion. (Also long discussion periods imo are fine too as long as we start with relevant MUs). Just throwing these things out there maybe.

I don't really have a discord though if anyone who is in their group wants to send the message (should we get this running again) I'd be happy.

I can also try to get around and be helpful in discussion unlike in the past

 

[Rickster]

I agree it would be nice to get some actual Zelda discussion around here again. Things have gotten pretty stale over the past few (several?) months. Well there's occasionally a post in the Fairy Fountain but nothing too major really.

tfw zelda's meta is developed by twitter gifs

The only person I know in their group that doesn't hate us is @evmaxy54 . At least I think he's still in the group...

Maybe we can even mend the rift in the Zelda community and be one happy family again

Sometimes I feel like we got a sorta bad reputation during the Fujin era since newer players got sassT a lot and took it the wrong way. Maybe that's why no one comes here anymore lol

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think something that's necessary if/when we do just start up MU discussions is that we can let a lot of Zelda players know that it's happening.

And by that I mean we ought to make sure the Zelda discord knows.

Even if we've had strong disagreements in the past, we need more Zeldas to discuss to get a better consensus. Simply put, if (or maybe when teehee) we disagree on MU points at least we can argue why together instead of getting these crazy skewed and different results in 2 separate places.

This, and also maybe informing Zelda players any time we start a NEW discussion. (Also long discussion periods imo are fine too as long as we start with relevant MUs). Just throwing these things out there maybe.

I don't really have a discord though if anyone who is in their group wants to send the message (should we get this running again) I'd be happy.

I can also try to get around and be helpful in discussion unlike in the past

or what remains of the facebooks Zelda's lol

the bigger question is would they show up though? even when the game was new trying to get other players from other character boards from discord had mixed results (usually only a hoe might maybe be successfully summoned)

im all for inviting them, just wondering if they will even appear.

I agree it would be nice to get some actual Zelda discussion around here again. Things have gotten pretty stale over the past few (several?) months. Well there's occasionally a post in the Fairy Fountain but nothing too major really.

tfw zelda's meta is developed by twitter gifs

The only person I know in their group that doesn't hate us is @evmaxy54 . At least I think he's still in the group...

Maybe we can even mend the rift in the Zelda community and be one happy family again

Sometimes I feel like we got a sorta bad reputation during the Fujin era since newer players got sassT a lot and took it the wrong way. Maybe that's why no one comes here anymore lol

TBH Zelda community always had a rift minus a Mac or two we almost unanimously agree on because everyone feels different about Zelda and shades each other. part of what makes the sisterhood but also causes the sisterns to want to kill each other when we try to get together lol.

I'm always up for trying though, cause even the sisterns i may not agree with i will root for them hoes the entire tournament lol

I feel we should discuss relevant regulars, followed by common fan favorites, relevant obscurities, then the nobody has mains tier

 

[BJN39]

I think if they ignore us then they'll just be missing out and not helping Zelda's metagame. It'll be important to make a sure the news gets spread to as many Zelda players as possible.

We honestly just need every heaux in here so that we can make some accurate AND current numbers. Threads like this are far better than a chat room for thoughtful discussion, they have some MU knowledge, we have some MU knowledge, together can fill in all the details.

Spoiler

things like final numbers can include notations for various MU number counts I.E. one MU is 45:55, while near half said 55:45 and the other half said 4:6-35:65 so that there's no ambiguity.

Spoiler: order stuff

I feel we should discuss relevant regulars, followed by common fan favorites, relevant obscurities, then the nobody has mains tier

^ So then we'll just make the "tiers" up and start picking from the most prioritized tier and so on. (^^)b

Do we wanna use the most recent tier list as a sort of quick reference for hew to pick? Top couple tiers, then next tiers, etc. maybe with certain prioritization to actually relevant in the scene vs "considered good but seldom used" IE villager within the tier list's tiers or something.

We could also have votes on who to do next within a pool of choices. That always keeps users engaged lmao

Real talk, anyone else notice how one party of us (SWF or discord Zeldas) finds out something useful for Zelda, and then the other party either: brings it up like, a week later thinking it's new, or only discovers it from finding that party A found it out a couple weeks ago? Zelda's metagame development is like a hilarious two-turtle race.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think if they ignore us then they'll just be missing out and not helping Zelda's metagame. It'll be important to make a sure the news gets spread to as many Zelda players as possible.

We honestly just need every heaux in here so that we can make some accurate AND current numbers. Threads like this are far better than a chat room for thoughtful discussion, they have some MU knowledge, we have some MU knowledge, together can fill in all the details.
things like final numbers can include notations for various MU number counts I.E. one MU is 45:55, while near half said 55:45 and the other half said 4:6-35:65 so that there's no ambiguity.

the chatrooms where meaningful discussion gets lost in the void lol. i do like the numbers idea but we might have to just round out a general number or we look disorganized with multiple numbers even in quotes

^ So then we'll just make the "tiers" up and start picking from the most prioritized tier and so on. (^^)b

Do we wanna use the most recent tier list as a sort of quick reference for hew to pick? Top couple tiers, then next tiers, etc. maybe with certain prioritization to actually relevant in the scene vs "considered good but seldom used" IE villager within the tier list's tiers or something.

We could also have votes on who to do next within a pool of choices. That always keeps users engaged lmao

yeah i was thinking based off recent tier list. despite the fact it looks like utter garbage its the best reference point to start discussion since it mostly orders who you'll see most often lol.

Real talk, anyone else notice how one party of us (SWF or discord Zeldas) finds out something useful for Zelda, and then the other party either: brings it up like, a week later thinking it's new, or only discovers it from finding that party A found it out a couple weeks ago? Zelda's metagame development is like a hilarious two-turtle race.

hey at least we always keep up with new tech with each other even if it is in a roundabout way.

 

[BJN39]

i do like the numbers idea but we might have to just round out a general number or we look disorganized with multiple numbers even in quotes

Oop for this I just mean something like:

ZELDA:SOMEONE 40:60

Spoiler: votes

Exact Rate (optional, can also be decimal or not): 41:59 (via adding up all votes and div. by vote total and rounding decimal)
BJN39 - 40:60
JigZ3 - 35:65
Rickster - 40:60
Macchiato - 50:50

Rounded number at the face, spoilered vote specifics so that people can know if/if not a contested MU.

And of course since I'm into this kind of thing I'd be willing to round up all these things each round.

Also, depending on how a MU is displayed out on the OP, this can appear under a table or elsewhere, (since in the table would make it explode lol) but in existence for reference~

 

[JigglyZelda003]

BJN39 my favorite numbers gurl

 

[Lord Renning]

Numbers cause strife. The only thing that matters is the discussion of the interactions and how the MU should be played and counter-played.

 

[BJN39]

Numbers cause strife. The only thing that matters is the discussion of the interactions and how the MU should be played and counter-played.

I've always been rather concerned with hard data like MU numbers. I do think having the MU details on file is more important--it doesn't mean we should have something recorded so that people (mains and others) can't refer to something.

We all get a good laugh out of old and outdated MU numbers anyways.

A major point of noting everyone's vote is so some votes are not deligitimized or totally lost should the final tally not 100% agree with one or few persons. I think numbers cause strife if people are rude during discussion. I for one remember being shady when Rosalinas said that they hard-countered us. At the time, I wasn't convinced. I got a better understanding and more sight of the MU (seeing pros play and some first hand exp) and was then convinced and admittedly agree with the Rosalinas' viewpoint, even Sonicbrawler. Still, at the time, the strife was because, simply, I didn't agree, but wasn't going to put up a good discussion to legitimize my opinion. Give me solid reasoning and I can be convinced--even that Zelda does better in MUs than I may think.

I digress.


I guess...I'm gonna vote we start with Sheik, Diddy, or Bayonetta. They're all still very relevant and not uncommon, despite the surprise of Civil War's Diddy and Sheik-less top 8. Oop, or Cloud, hew makes me kms sometimes. :^)

 

[Rickster]

The thing about number ratings is that some people interpret them differently, which is probably where the shade comes from. Like how the Rosalindas have "slight advantage" as like 60:40, whereas to me that's more like "a fair advantage". I suppose we could make numbers optional for posts?

Any of those characters would be good starting points tbh. I vote Cloud since he's so popular in all levels of play and you see him a lot, especially online. But I honestly don't have a huge preference really.