CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
Shiek is pretty evenish to me. She can juggle bowser early in the match which is my only real problem in the match up. My past room mate is a shiek main which is probably why I don't find it as hard as you do Zigsta.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Uncle
- Start date
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
My Shiek experience is trash. I'm not sure how long uptilt lock is guaranteed on us.
Also, I'm picking up a new character to use against Yoshi. I'd rather play an IC than a Yoshi.
Also, I'm picking up a new character to use against Yoshi. I'd rather play an IC than a Yoshi.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Well yeah, no one in New York uses Yoshi...I don't think. So I don't really have anything to fear unless Deltacod comes up or some ridiculous ****.
Which I think will happen for PB5, but w/e.
Which I think will happen for PB5, but w/e.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I'd love for you to get some games in with Delta-COD. The only other Yoshi videos other than my set with Poltergust is the set between Ixis and Aura, and Poltergust plays the MU MUCH better than Aura.
I'm personally convinced now, after playing both Poltergust and YOSH, that Yoshi is one of our worst MUs.
I'm personally convinced now, after playing both Poltergust and YOSH, that Yoshi is one of our worst MUs.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
I don't think it's THAT bad, but it really is discouraging to get grab released across the stage, just to die.
REALLY discouraging.
Wait, I don't even know if he's going to come up or not...hell, I don't even know if I'm going.
But if both situations end up positive, I'll be sure to do something. lol
REALLY discouraging.
Wait, I don't even know if he's going to come up or not...hell, I don't even know if I'm going.
But if both situations end up positive, I'll be sure to do something. lol
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Yoshi doesn't have anything guaranteed on us out of GR, unlike a lot of characters, but it puts Bowser in a HORRIBLE spot. It's easy for Yoshi to read your DI and dair or fair you, and he can also just wait at the edge and dtilt you.
I've tried both ftilt and Klaw to approach, and whiffing either one easily leads to a Yoshi grab. On top of that, Yoshi is ridiculously hard to kill. I've only killed Polt with ftilt once--the first time he's EVER been killed by ftilt, in fact, going back to when he used to play Serg. Dtilt's laggy enough to get grabbed, and I'm pretty sure it can't poke Yoshi's shield.
His shield's really weird. It can be poked BELOW the shield, meaning if Bowser and Yoshi are both on the same plane, you can't poke his shield. Some attacks, like Kirby's upair, can somehow poke Yoshi's shield even if they're on the same plane, though.
Bowser's also incredibly easy to Egg Lay.
We had to play in tournament last weekend, and I started off by playing REALLY patient. I'm talking powershielding 20 eggs in a row. But eventually I had to approach, and I got completely destroyed. 3 stocked destroyed.
Polt's the one person who can and will easily 3 stock me in tournament.
I've tried both ftilt and Klaw to approach, and whiffing either one easily leads to a Yoshi grab. On top of that, Yoshi is ridiculously hard to kill. I've only killed Polt with ftilt once--the first time he's EVER been killed by ftilt, in fact, going back to when he used to play Serg. Dtilt's laggy enough to get grabbed, and I'm pretty sure it can't poke Yoshi's shield.
His shield's really weird. It can be poked BELOW the shield, meaning if Bowser and Yoshi are both on the same plane, you can't poke his shield. Some attacks, like Kirby's upair, can somehow poke Yoshi's shield even if they're on the same plane, though.
Bowser's also incredibly easy to Egg Lay.
We had to play in tournament last weekend, and I started off by playing REALLY patient. I'm talking powershielding 20 eggs in a row. But eventually I had to approach, and I got completely destroyed. 3 stocked destroyed.
Polt's the one person who can and will easily 3 stock me in tournament.
bigman40
Smash Master
Welcome to how Yoshi keeps stage control.
B!squick
Smash Master
Silly, Zigsta. If you'll just listen to A2Z you would know that G&W and Mario are 0-100 match-ups.
B!squick
Smash Master
Added a new "chart."
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
Charts EVERYWHERE. I dunno what to believe in now lol. Can someone make more links to discussions on characters that have been discussed so far? The only easy ones to get to are Falco and Metaknight. Also is it really 35-65 for us? I feel like it's 40-60.
B!squick
Smash Master
They don't even have to perfect plank to totally shut us down. I think that's the main reason. Also, links were going to be made to discussions when we rediscussed them since most of the info in this thread is quite old and out of date. But since no one wanted to rediscuss anything, Meta Knight will just have to deal with being the only character we've discussed completely.
Unless you want to count G&W and Mario.
Unless you want to count G&W and Mario.
KillerJawz
...
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 4,285
If you still want a new chart, contact Meno. He's the one who did the chart for the Samus boards.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Why don't we go through all the MUs, then. After we have new ratios and discussions, we'll ask Meno for a new chart.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Yes. A bunch of other boards have been starting MU redisscusions, so we might as well, too.
I can easily get my fellow Texas Smashers who've played me to come in and contribute to their respective MUs.
I can easily get my fellow Texas Smashers who've played me to come in and contribute to their respective MUs.
You mean like this?
Having ratios based on single player testing is really dumb anyway, so don't count that as a vote for 30:70 against Olimar.
It's like I've often said, I very rarely get to play competent players of characters that matter.
A matchup thread should first be about how to play it, THEN you can worry about the ratios. What good is knowing that Luigi is 50-50 if I don't know what to do and look out for?
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
What MU would you guys like to discuss first? One of us can make a thread after we decide which MU to start with.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Lets do Ganondorf.
Not an order from low to high, just do Ganondorf first. No other boards ever discusess Ganondorf, and they think its a 50:50 Matchup and I don't know if I have to agree with that.
Anyway its interesting because its seen as Ganondorfs best matchup, and we'd really do them a favor cause now they can finally see this matchup from the other side.
Or we could be "original" and do MK lol
Not an order from low to high, just do Ganondorf first. No other boards ever discusess Ganondorf, and they think its a 50:50 Matchup and I don't know if I have to agree with that.
Anyway its interesting because its seen as Ganondorfs best matchup, and we'd really do them a favor cause now they can finally see this matchup from the other side.
Or we could be "original" and do MK lol
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
I have no tourney experience with the matchup (Who does?), but I have a lot of trouble seeing it as 50/50.
55/45 Bowser sounds more appropriate. I'm aware of what Ganon can do, and he really does have a reasonable chance at beating the Koopa King. The King of Evil just doesn't have as many safe options, though.
As for MK, I've actually done that matchup in tourney............and who hasn't?
55/45 Bowser sounds more appropriate. I'm aware of what Ganon can do, and he really does have a reasonable chance at beating the Koopa King. The King of Evil just doesn't have as many safe options, though.
As for MK, I've actually done that matchup in tourney............and who hasn't?
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Who cares about Ganondorf...
anyway, In order to get things started or at least damage you, Ganondorf has to touch you--that implies coming into contact with you, which implies he has to get close to you. Unless you're getting consistently flame choked to death, there shouldn't be much of a problem.
You really don't need to approach, at all. You can let him do the work. If you see a flame choke coming at you, just jump or move back or something.
Ignorance/cockiness aside, when he damages you, he will damage you. Bowser's getup options aren't that good anyway, the rolls are terrible and his getup attack is meh. It's good at <100% though.
In the situation that Bowser does get a grab, you can do all of the basic ground release moves. (Jab, F/DTilt, Klaw). Honestly I just say don't let Ganon take the lead, because then you're forced to approach, and hell just arises. At the start of the match I think you're just fine if you sit there and stuff. Just stay idle.
MK is something completely different. He can approach you and pressure Bowser's shield with ease. MK can Up-B our klaw, and he can do it whenever he feels it coming. If MK gets you offstage and he's good at gimping/reading DI, you're ****ed. Really.
If the MK is DAir camping, you can fit a FH klaw inbetween there (really dumb idea and you'll probably mess up), it's better if you just wait for him to come down and read what he's going to do. If he tornadoes, just punish accordingly.
One of the most IMPORTANT things I can say a Bowser must learn is the punish range for a move. Every single opportunity Bowser gets to punish must be taken, especially in situations versus characters that can shut us down. You don't want to mess up a punish by using a dashgrab or a standing grab when an FTilt was the only thing that can/would have reached the Metaknight or whatever. The followup in that said situation is really important too, but in order to get there, you have to make the move first.
anyway, In order to get things started or at least damage you, Ganondorf has to touch you--that implies coming into contact with you, which implies he has to get close to you. Unless you're getting consistently flame choked to death, there shouldn't be much of a problem.
You really don't need to approach, at all. You can let him do the work. If you see a flame choke coming at you, just jump or move back or something.
Ignorance/cockiness aside, when he damages you, he will damage you. Bowser's getup options aren't that good anyway, the rolls are terrible and his getup attack is meh. It's good at <100% though.
In the situation that Bowser does get a grab, you can do all of the basic ground release moves. (Jab, F/DTilt, Klaw). Honestly I just say don't let Ganon take the lead, because then you're forced to approach, and hell just arises. At the start of the match I think you're just fine if you sit there and stuff. Just stay idle.
MK is something completely different. He can approach you and pressure Bowser's shield with ease. MK can Up-B our klaw, and he can do it whenever he feels it coming. If MK gets you offstage and he's good at gimping/reading DI, you're ****ed. Really.
If the MK is DAir camping, you can fit a FH klaw inbetween there (really dumb idea and you'll probably mess up), it's better if you just wait for him to come down and read what he's going to do. If he tornadoes, just punish accordingly.
One of the most IMPORTANT things I can say a Bowser must learn is the punish range for a move. Every single opportunity Bowser gets to punish must be taken, especially in situations versus characters that can shut us down. You don't want to mess up a punish by using a dashgrab or a standing grab when an FTilt was the only thing that can/would have reached the Metaknight or whatever. The followup in that said situation is really important too, but in order to get there, you have to make the move first.
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
As far as aerial nado goes, will Nair still counter it even at an angle?
B!squick
Smash Master
Yeah because we didn't long ago decide to agree on numbers just to have it done and then go back later and do proper discussions-OH WAIT! We did.
Great idea!
I wish I'd have thought of that.
Seriously people, I can see why MrEh gave up on this long ago.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Another long day at work, huh.
Seriously, we already did Ganon.
I personally think it's more important to rediscuss/discuss characters that matter/you'll probably face in bracket often. Then again, it should be a kinda baseline for each person to know those MUs, right?
Look, if it's necessary, we/others can come up with a page long post regarding what x can do to Bowser and what Bowser can do to x.
we have the ratios/what people think. All we need is a chart, right? I'm only talking about fixing what people see as soon as they click this thing.
Seriously, we already did Ganon.
I personally think it's more important to rediscuss/discuss characters that matter/you'll probably face in bracket often. Then again, it should be a kinda baseline for each person to know those MUs, right?
Look, if it's necessary, we/others can come up with a page long post regarding what x can do to Bowser and what Bowser can do to x.
we have the ratios/what people think. All we need is a chart, right? I'm only talking about fixing what people see as soon as they click this thing.
B!squick
Smash Master
Which is why I made a simple, easy to read list until we can come up with a chart. You're welcome to make a better one if you don't like mine.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Dang, Bowser acting MAD salty right now.
As for Ganon, it's of note that Klaw beats Flame Choke when timed properly. It's delicious.
So do you guys NOT want to do rediscussions? Bowser Boards' main problem is they just say no one ever works towards MU rediscussions, and those same people who complain don't contribute to the rediscussion, which doesn't help at all.
If no one wants to vote towards a particular character to focus on, then I suggest we all work on our own explanations for every single character in the game and then post them.
tl;dr Stop johning, Bowser Boards.
As for Ganon, it's of note that Klaw beats Flame Choke when timed properly. It's delicious.
So do you guys NOT want to do rediscussions? Bowser Boards' main problem is they just say no one ever works towards MU rediscussions, and those same people who complain don't contribute to the rediscussion, which doesn't help at all.
If no one wants to vote towards a particular character to focus on, then I suggest we all work on our own explanations for every single character in the game and then post them.
tl;dr Stop johning, Bowser Boards.
B!squick
Smash Master
We have been doing it since March and 8 months later we've only completed MK. Draw your own conclusions.
The only time I play this game is every couple of months with my drunk friends while drinking. What am I going to contribute? You know, I should make a separate match-up chart. The Intoxicated Bowser Match-up Chart...
I'm fine with that. I doubt anyone else will actually do it though... Besides Flayl. He actually does stuff.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Actually, the Intoxicated Bowser MU Chart would be funny. 
I'm gonna start working on my own explanations for every character, then. Will post likely over winter break.
I'm gonna start working on my own explanations for every character, then. Will post likely over winter break.
B!squick
Smash Master
I thought so, too, the more I pondered.
I'd have to play against my friends again though. It's been a while.
I'd have to play against my friends again though. It's been a while.
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
If I actually had a broader experience with matchups I would be a lot more valuable to this thread 
The common chars I come across in my state are Snake, MK (sort of) DDD and a few other random ones like Luigi and Ganon. There are 3 Ganon mains in my state haha
Snake is still hard for me. I gotta watch some vids here as well read the discussions again.
The common chars I come across in my state are Snake, MK (sort of) DDD and a few other random ones like Luigi and Ganon. There are 3 Ganon mains in my state haha Snake is still hard for me. I gotta watch some vids here as well read the discussions again.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Bowser/Snake is a really easy matchup to get ***** on if the Bowser isn't patient. My brother is a solid (no pun intended) Snake main, so I'm fairly comfortable with the matchup due to playing it with him a lot.
I agree with Zigsta about working on our own explanations and posting them. That's the best way to get discussion flowing here again. I hope I'll be able to help with that too, now that I'm actually posting around here instead of occasionally lurking.
I agree with Zigsta about working on our own explanations and posting them. That's the best way to get discussion flowing here again. I hope I'll be able to help with that too, now that I'm actually posting around here instead of occasionally lurking.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
I personally think we're just recapping more than trying to restart conversation.
All you need to do is be patient. Don't blindly approach Snake, and take into account any grenades that are on the field. If a grenade ever explodes and you get hit, expect Snake to take advantage of you being in the air. Well, he should. You'll be in the air, and it'll be hell to get down to the ground. Snake can trap your landings, or punish your airdodges. Snake can also uptilt your klaws if he feels them coming (yeah, it's more of a reactionary thing) because Snake's hitbox is reaaaally large.
NAir is something Snakes usually abuse because Bowser looks so large (I'm talking about ignorant Snakes that thing approaching with FHNAir wins them the game). Realistically speaking, it's hard..well hard for me, to DI out of NAir. But if you get caught in it just try to get out.
Snakes like to BAir when coming down, but if you don't PS it, you can FTilt/Klaw/DTilt oos and still reach him. If you DO ps it, he's just ****ed lmao.
Aside from that, just be patient, and when you grab him or get damage on him, be sure to get him into the air. Bowser can take advantage of his landings, and I mean it. Bowser can do nasty stuff out of the ground AND air releases.
If you ever powershield Snake's first FTilt, take full advantage of that. You can up-b/jab/ftilt in between the first/second ftilt if it's PS'd.
If you plan on using fire to damage/just space, be sure not to do it too much, because Snake can DI into you and BAir, and it's a really powerful move. Snake's DThrow is disgusting, it's really easy to read Bowser's getup options, and snake can take really nasty advantage of that.
Overall, just be patient, jump around/insta-throw grenades and just get your hits in/get him in the air. get your grabs. (basic MU knowledge)
oh, and if you're ever ****ed about landing because a mine is under you, you can klaw hop on top of it and not need to worry about that. Bowser's usmash also jumps high enough so that the C4 explosion hitbox doesn't damage Bowser.
I'd personally start on BF/SV against a Snake for the first round. I don't really know what to counterpick though.
I guess I'll just post something on each character everyday/whenever I have free time. I can't do all 35 at once...
All you need to do is be patient. Don't blindly approach Snake, and take into account any grenades that are on the field. If a grenade ever explodes and you get hit, expect Snake to take advantage of you being in the air. Well, he should. You'll be in the air, and it'll be hell to get down to the ground. Snake can trap your landings, or punish your airdodges. Snake can also uptilt your klaws if he feels them coming (yeah, it's more of a reactionary thing) because Snake's hitbox is reaaaally large.
NAir is something Snakes usually abuse because Bowser looks so large (I'm talking about ignorant Snakes that thing approaching with FHNAir wins them the game). Realistically speaking, it's hard..well hard for me, to DI out of NAir. But if you get caught in it just try to get out.
Snakes like to BAir when coming down, but if you don't PS it, you can FTilt/Klaw/DTilt oos and still reach him. If you DO ps it, he's just ****ed lmao.
Aside from that, just be patient, and when you grab him or get damage on him, be sure to get him into the air. Bowser can take advantage of his landings, and I mean it. Bowser can do nasty stuff out of the ground AND air releases.
If you ever powershield Snake's first FTilt, take full advantage of that. You can up-b/jab/ftilt in between the first/second ftilt if it's PS'd.
If you plan on using fire to damage/just space, be sure not to do it too much, because Snake can DI into you and BAir, and it's a really powerful move. Snake's DThrow is disgusting, it's really easy to read Bowser's getup options, and snake can take really nasty advantage of that.
Overall, just be patient, jump around/insta-throw grenades and just get your hits in/get him in the air. get your grabs. (basic MU knowledge)
oh, and if you're ever ****ed about landing because a mine is under you, you can klaw hop on top of it and not need to worry about that. Bowser's usmash also jumps high enough so that the C4 explosion hitbox doesn't damage Bowser.
I'd personally start on BF/SV against a Snake for the first round. I don't really know what to counterpick though.
I guess I'll just post something on each character everyday/whenever I have free time. I can't do all 35 at once...
I/We should collect information (in a thread probably) for each matchup so it's easier to update and read.
I'd also love to discuss a matchup were we have recordings of at least 2 Bowser players playing it out, it's a lot easier to theorycraft, figure out options and nuances by watching videos IMO.
I'd also love to discuss a matchup were we have recordings of at least 2 Bowser players playing it out, it's a lot easier to theorycraft, figure out options and nuances by watching videos IMO.
The Brown Scourge
Smash Journeyman
Snake bowser: simple matchup. Lots of patience. do nothing but grabs so their shield grenade defense wont work. Koopa klaw. If in the air do up air and if they dodge that then its a free back air or fair. space fire breath. utilt beats out snake nair. try really hard not to get grabbed. the smarter snakes will side dodge your koopa klaw from the air. Bait him by air dodging instead and going for a ground koopa klaw. You may get grab armor if u get to him fast enough. thats about it. wait for openings and learn how to di properly
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
You could just aerial klaw and then ground klaw...I mean, if they airdodge then they're just trapped.
At least have both situations covered..
If you know the Snake will BAir then it's sorta different.
At least have both situations covered..
If you know the Snake will BAir then it's sorta different.
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
True Upair is always a good baiting tool. Also Upair'ing his recovery seems to work. They never seem to expect it. My only issues really is f-tilt and nades. Both those issues have been addressed here so I'll try the advice in practice and see how I go next time vs a Snake.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Don't sit idly around grenades. Do something; throw them back, hold onto them for a second, klaw hop around them...free damage for Snake isn't good at all, considering he can damage trap (uh...) us really easily with FTilt when we screw up and DThrow reads.
Vs. FTilt, just try to not put yourself in positions where you'll be hit with it. Any chance you get to powershield/get the advance on that move is really good. UpB never seems to reach for me with blocked FTilts. If you can't punish it, just run away and reset the situation or something. I personally don't feel it's worth it to risk and take damage. (Contradiction, I mean, you should sometimes, but not all the time.)
Vs. FTilt, just try to not put yourself in positions where you'll be hit with it. Any chance you get to powershield/get the advance on that move is really good. UpB never seems to reach for me with blocked FTilts. If you can't punish it, just run away and reset the situation or something. I personally don't feel it's worth it to risk and take damage. (Contradiction, I mean, you should sometimes, but not all the time.)
KillerJawz
...
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 4,285
Don't try and throw grenades back if they've been sitting on the floor for a little while, Snake can simply strip them and have them blow up on you.