A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Miquel0123]

miquel sucks, im the best pika in eu

XDDD I think this ^

 

[KillerJawz]

Guys cut down on the spam and get back to talking about the MU.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We love, Link, you guys love Bowser. Lets talk about them here

 

[Cassius.]

So uh

anyone wanna recap the matchup ratios or something

DO SOMETHING CONTROVERSIAL.

/filler to bring back a dead thread

 

[Zigsta]

I'd love to discuss Diddy Kong. There's not too many videos against Diddies up--what kind of banana shenanigans do you guys like?

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

Yes I'd love to fill this thread with useful info. There's still ratio's given with out a real explanation as to why.

 

[B!squick]

No body wanted to discuss anything which is why dead thread has been dead. I don't see any pigs flying yet, but if more than person wants to discuss Diddy you're more than welcome to and I'll change the title then.

 

[Flayl]

Diddy is one of those matchups that you need to practice a LOT to be able to actually give insightful comments on... Hence why I can't really give anything.

 

[Cassius.]

Diddy is one of those matchups that you need to practice a LOT to be able to actually give insightful comments on... Hence why I can't really give anything.

this.

10this

 

[Zigsta]

Gnes, namesearch this!

We're playing at HOBO 29.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

Ok. Well for starters, Bowser is fat and an easy target to trip by throwing nana's at. Also Diddy has great priority in the air. I'm not sure what fair beats against Diddy's arsenal.

 

[MrEh]

Also Diddy has great priority in the air. I'm not sure what fair beats against Diddy's arsenal.

Klaw beats everything.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

Would I be mistaken to say that we have a chain grab on Diddy?

 

[Flayl]

At the moment no you wouldn't, but it hasn't been frame-tested yet.

 

[B!squick]

Don't matter anyway though 'cause of the bananas and all that jazz.

 

[MrEh]

Chaingrab works on Diddy. It obviously sucks though.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

Yea I guess.. At least we CAN do it though. Klaw hopping is probably way more useful in this matchup. Sadly Diddy can easily predict nana throws so you end up landing on the nana after a klaw hop..

What are our best options in this match?

 

[Flayl]

Yea I guess.. At least we CAN do it though. Klaw hopping is probably way more useful in this matchup. Sadly Diddy can easily predict nana throws so you end up landing on the nana after a klaw hop.

Uh... You can klaw hop on bananas. The reason klaw hopping may be difficult is peanut spam and Diddy's own special grab.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

Uh... You can klaw hop on bananas. The reason klaw hopping may be difficult is peanut spam and Diddy's own special grab.

Guess I've been doing it wrong O_O Peanuts are potentially worse than nana's due to there weird arc when fired. special grab could be countered by klaw hopped fair.

 

[Cassius.]

If by "special grab" you mean Diddy's flip hop, you can just FTilt upwards or pivot grab, or SHKlaw.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

Ok so a list of our positives:

Klaw hopping bannana's to avoid tripping.

We can attack Diddy's monkey flip with F-tilt

If we somehow get the chance to grab diddy, we can do some grab release Shenanigans.

Negatives:

We're an easy target to get hit by all projectiles so it's hard to get in close to diddy.

His Aerial game beats most of what we have.



That's what I can gather so far. Is there anymore input to give? Also What ratio do you guys think should be labelled for this match up?

I'd like for this to be done quickly (but throughly) so we can move onto Samus Makes sense to discuss that matchup.

 

[B!squick]

Commendable thread necromancy, CaLibUr, but lol at your naivety. Thinking that we'll ever get "done quickly" let alone throughly. And moving on to a different character? Which board do you think you're on, son?

But hey, stranger things have happened. Progress has been made on the grab release thread (thank you Flayl).

I'm pretty sure you can grab a banana off the ground from a Klaw hopped FAir. It's also important to note that Diddy's air mobility is pretty terrible, so don't be afraid to go for the win off stage against him.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

Lol I can try XD

I'm pretty sure you can grab a banana off the ground from a Klaw hopped FAir. It's also important to note that Diddy's air mobility is pretty terrible, so don't be afraid to go for the win off stage against him.

Yea Bowser should have enough tools to pressure diddy off stage. Is it easy to klaw Diddy when he's using his up B?

So your saying that KH on a banana automatically grabs it? If so I must try this. I'm probably reading it wrong though..

 

[B!squick]

Klaw hopped FAir

^^^^^^^^

As for Klawwing Diddy's UpB, I guess it would depend on the situation. It can be quick or slow depending on the charge.

 

[Cassius.]

With Bowser's aerial klaw, there are leftover frames from before you hit the ground to do things such as:

-do an aerial [nothing comes out but you hear the sound]
-jump [cue to infamous klaw hopping]
-airdodge [hey, i can grab a banana?]

yeah, just klaw to protect it and then press l/r before you hit the ground to buffer an airdodge to grab the banana, and you'll buffer a shield as well. same with a z-grab.

and you can pivot grab/utilt diddy's fliphop, i said it before.

when he's not messing with bananas, he's really simple to grab and play against. the bananas are and always will be a core problem of the matchup, and since we don't have any sort of remarkable glide toss (well we kinda do, but it's really dumb) we're sorta ****ed.

 

[Dumbfire]

Also the thing to bait the diddy in chating a Banana is very fun too. Empty short hops behind a banan can work. They will most DA in and its ver punishble. You can jab in it too.
If you want to see the best example of this, check Will the DK playing any Diddy. God he plays this MU so amazing. Tbh I'm to scared to use Bowser vs diddys lol

But remember vs Diddy, for theorycraft all we can actually give is little fun gimmicks and tricks with bananas. Playing this matchup to learn it is so important and really the only way too actually get good at it.

 

[Cassius.]

Or you could just pick a better character.

But we're all ballsy men so **** it.

If you get a hand on a banana, use it to its fullest potential. AKA following up with a grab or reading the get-up option well and getting a kill. At early percents you can throw the banana, read the roll/attack, get a grab release and set up.

Using the klaw as a front and then buffering the airdodge to catch the banana, you're kinda safe for a few frames (klaw hitbox, and it's the aerial klaw), i'm not sure if you can instant-throw out of the airdodge buffer though.

I still think it's 35:65, it's just a hell of a problem trying to fight a character who sports complete stage control and can regulate it really well with bananas. Fighting back is a large possibility which is why i'm not labelling it as 30:70 or something like that. It's just reeeeeeally easy to get frustrated.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

you can instant throw out of a klawhop for sure but i dont think theres enough time to do it if youre landing with a klaw

 

[The Brown Scourge]

monkey flip is annoying. instead of kicking they can just grab with it. goes right through shield, which us bowser mains rely heavily upon
@ Jaydeath
love your profile picture
young bowser patiently waitng in da warppipe. sneaky mario, ill get u yet

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

^^^^^^^^

As for Klawwing Diddy's UpB, I guess it would depend on the situation. It can be quick or slow depending on the charge.

Sorry, I'm just finding it hard to imagine that working. I'm not sure if I should be Fairing on landing on rising.

Thanks for the input Limit. Should really check past discussion myself on the matchup. I guess if you practice being patient it will eventually work out.... eventually. Our best bet is to probably pick stages like BF since we can Klaw through platforms and to try and hinder the **** Diddy can do with his nana's. Also heaps of our attacks poke through platforms.... but this in general knowledge.

 

[tibs7]

Bowser has no chance in this mu lol.

 

[Cassius.]

oh, thanks.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

Bowser has no chance in this mu lol.

Challenge accepted.

 

[Cassius.]

Ok, I feel like this is all just redicussion and review, so why don't you just add the general MU ratios to the first page of the thread? (make a compressed list?)

Or do that and just have people's MU ratios (ie what Flayl thinks as opposed to MrEh etc so people can see where there are small deviations. It shouldn't be majorly different but cool. Maybe collapse it or something)

I just personally don't feel like looking at a half-empty MU chart.

 

[Zigsta]

I absolutely LOVE the image the Samus boards made for their MU thread. Maybe we could make something similar to that.

 

[B!squick]

Ok, I feel like this is all just redicussion and review,

Hmmmm....

so why don't you just add the general MU ratios to the first page of the thread? (make a compressed list?)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... though the list is pretty spread out and not made for easy reading, I will give you that.

Or do that and just have people's MU ratios (ie what Flayl thinks as opposed to MrEh etc so people can see where there are small deviations. It shouldn't be majorly different but cool. Maybe collapse it or something)

I know I've suggested this in the past, though that idea had the problem of me as the source. There's hope for it yet now that you're on board.

I just personally don't feel like looking at a half-empty MU chart.

Then by all means, make one. If you've decided against doing that, congratulations, you've just discovered why it's like that in the first place.

If you can't tell, I haven't had much sleep... and work sucked (one woman yelled at me for invading their privacy... by calling them)... and I've been watching lots of Scrubs lately. <3 Dr. Cox. So please don't take my sarcasm the wrong way. I really do love you Limit. No homo.

 

[Cassius.]

Btw this is my personal Matchup chart with him atm

Ganon 65:35
Ivysaur 65:35

Falcon 60:40
Jigglypuff 60:40

Lucas 55:45
Ness 55:45
Ike 55:45
Sonic 55:45
Mario 55:45
Charizard 55:45

Snake 50:50
GnW 50:50

Falco 45:55
Fox 45:55
Donkey Kong 45:55
Peach 45:55
Luigi 45:55
ROB 45:55
Link 45:55
Yoshi 45:55
Sheik 45:55
Marth 45:55
Wolf 45:55

Dedede 40:60
Kirby 40:60
Lucario 40:60
Toon Link 40:60
Pit 40:60
Squirtle 40:60
ZSS 40:60
Olimar 40:60

Pikachu 35:65
Wario 35:65
Zelda 35:65
Diddy 35:65

Meta Knight 30:70
Samus 30:70

Ice Climber's 20:80

The chart of vex is pretty good but I disagree for some.

DK 50-50
Tl 45-55 maybe 50-50
pit 50-50
squirtle 50-50
pikachu 45-55
wario 45-55
zelda 45-55
diddy 40-60
mk 40-60
samus ?? but I dont feel is 30-70

Oh yes. Matchup post time?
Eh, **** it. I'll just do it now. There are a lot of things I agree with because Vex told me and expressed his opinions, and I actually experienced those...things first hand x] The only massive thing I disagree with is the Samus ratio.

Ganon 65:35
Ivysaur 65:35

Falcon 60:40
Jigglypuff 60:40
Lucas 60:40

Ness 55:45
Ike 55:45
Link 55:45
Mario 55:45 (FTilt?)
Charizard 55:45
Squirtle 50:50, might be in Bowser's favor...I'm looking into Squirtle a bit anyway

Sonic 50:50
Snake 50:50
GnW 50:50 (I haven't faced a G&W yet to give me the feeling of even-ness, although Vex and Gen have told me what to do and what can be done. I used to think it was 45-55 lol)

An idiot MK: 45:55 (Guys guys! Remember when we THOUGHT the Bowser-MK ratio was this?! Lo, and Behold.)
Falco 45:55
Fox 45:55
Donkey Kong 45:55
Samus 45:55
Peach 45:55
Luigi 45:55
ROB 45:55
Yoshi 45:55
Sheik 45:55
Marth 45:55
Wolf 45:55
Zelda 45:55...maybe.

Metaknight (w/o MU EXP)- 45:55 - 40:60, assuming the MK isn't downright stupid
Dedede 40:60
Kirby 40:60
Lucario 40:60
Toon Link 40:60
Pit 40:60
ZSS 40:60
Olimar 40:60

Pikachu 35:65
Wario 35:65
Diddy 35:65

Meta Knight WITH EXP and 0 Idiot points, or just plain good 35:65

Ice Climber's 20:80

I uh, wasn't sure for a few matchups. Like I mean, what to put as the ratio, because the number just wasn't right, but I didn't have my own. Maybe I should just put "?"s but I put in a number that was close to how I felt/thought it was.

I also think Lucas is loads easier than Ness. <_<

this **** is from over a year ago. it's really hard to believe i've been on here for more than a year, but whatever.

what I think now:

(Bowser:Character)
Meta Knight - 40:60
Snake - 45:55
Wario - 35:65
Falco - 40:60
Diddy Kong - 35:65
King Dedede - 40:60
Marth - 45:55
Pikachu - 35:65
Olimar - 35:65
Ice Climbers - 25:75
R.O.B. - 40:60
Kirby - 45:55
Lucario - 40:60
Zero Suit Samus - 40:60
Toon Link - 40:60
Pit - 45:55
Donkey Kong - 45:55
Peach - 40:60
Luigi - 50:50
Fox - 50:50
Wolf - 50:50
Sonic - 60:40
Sheik - 50:50
Bowser - wat
Zelda - 40:60 (45:55? MrEh definitely has more to say on this than I do)
Pokémon Trainer - overall, 50:50
Squirtle - 40:60
Ivysaur - 65:35
Charizard - 50:50
Ike - 50:50
Lucas - 55:45
Mario - 50:50
Ness - 45:55
Yoshi - 40:60
Samus - 40:60
Jigglypuff - 60:40
Captain Falcon - 50:50/55:45
Link - 50:50
Ganondorf - 60:40

noting that we have 40-60's across the board, take into account that the majority of those MUs are very much winnable, and have been won in some circumstances. They're just not in Bowser's advantage, but who gives a ****?

or for a simpler list:

Meta Knight - [Major?] Disadvantage
Snake - Very Slight Disadvantage
Wario - Disadvantage
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Major Disadvantage
King Dedede - Disadvantage
Marth - Slight Disadvantage
Pikachu - Disadvantage
Olimar - Sorta Major Disadvantage
Ice Climbers - MAJOR DISADVANTAGE
R.O.B. - Disadvantage
Kirby - Slight Disadvantage
Lucario - [slight] Disadvantage
Zero Suit Samus - Disadvantage
Toon Link - Disadvantage
Pit - Slight Disadvantage
Donkey Kong - Slight Disadvantage
Peach - [slight] Disadvantage
Luigi - Even
Fox - Even
Wolf - Even
Sonic - Advantage
Sheik - Even
Bowser - wat
Zelda - Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer - Overall even
Ike - Even
Lucas - Slight Advantage
Mario - Even
Ness - Slight Disadvantage
Yoshi - Disadvantage
Samus - Disadvantage
Jigglypuff - Advantage
Captain Falcon - Even
Link - Even
Ganondorf - Advantage

 

[Zigsta]

Most of those number look good to me. Here's where I differ:

Pikachu - 40:60
GW - 50:50
R.O.B. - 50:50
Kirby - 50:50
Zamus - 45:55 (maybe 50:50--it's close)
Pit - 40:60
DK - 50:50
Peach - 50:50
Sonic: 50:50
PT - 60-40
Squirtle - 60:40
Yoshi - 30:70
Mario - 55:45


And Shiek is just WTF to me.

 

[Cassius.]

I can see ROB/Kirby/PT being what they are on your list.

I'm not too sure about Mario being in our favor, and I don't even think I put G&W on my list.

I think G&W is 45:55. other than that I guess we're ok.

Just powershield the needles and think. I didn't watch the videos but knowing how you play needles/ftilt/grabs probably shut you down. Either of the 3 or all of them

 

[Zigsta]

You caught my non-Math skills! XD

The reason I put Mario in our favor is Bowser's really good at locking Mario on the ledge. He doesn't have much range from the ledge. Just spamming Bowser's first jab is an effective way to edgeguard Mario, as you can either hit him with the first or second jab or cancel it into ftilt, dtilt, or fsmash. Every Mario I've ever played always struggles getting back off the ledge against me.

EDIT--Here's my Squirtle reasoning: He HAS to approach you to open the match. Every second Squirtle's out there, he's getting fatigued, making it even more difficult to KO Bowser. He doesn't have much range. A smart Squirtle will use retreating bairs here to ensure he doesn't get grabbed. One whiffed attack, though, easily leads to GR CG to Klaw. Squirtle can rack up damage fast against Bowser, but if you can grab him early on so that you keep the majority of the control of Klaw's DI, then Squirtle's relatively easy to Bowsercide early game.