A good secondary for Jr?

pikazz

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
NNID
pikamaxi
#1
I am not completely sure who would make a good secondary for Jr, what character can cover up his weaknesses in battle?

I am maining/playing Jigglypuff, Shulk, Rob and Greninja aswell and I have found that all 4 have good sync with Jr!

but who would the best secondary be and against what character/Jr's weakness?
 

Glicnak

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 1, 2015
Messages
111
#3
With Jr. I feel handicapped when it comes to his grab game. I also get gimped and outzoned sometimes. So to compliment that I use Sonic as a secondary.
Thats interesting. I feel like sonic has the same approach issues as jr. How do you get around that?
 

Duck SMASH!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
418
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
C.Piglet
#4
Before we can talk about Jr's best secondary, we need to identify two things.
1. His weaknesses as a character.
2. His worst matchups (because this is ultimately what secondaries are for in competitive play)

Now... we have yet to cover Jr's worst matchups. From a glance, I'd say ZSS, Rosalina, Fox, Yoshi, and maybe Pikachu deserve our attention at the very least. But this isn't anything set in stone yet.

Jr's weaknesses as a character are easy to spot, though.
- Poor grab.
- easily gimpable recovery (at least, if you're forced to use up B)
- crappy options for landing (auto cancelled aerials only go so far)
- Unreliable kill options (has a few good combos but reads are a must for this guy)
- Poor walk/run speed that forces you to predictably use Kart dash for much needed mobility.

I currently have Falcon as another main, and he addresses almost all of Jr's weaknesses. Great dash grab, great kill options, fast and almost lagless aerials, excellent speed, excellent combo power.
The main issues are...
- Recovery sucks for him. Worse than Jr's.
- less heavy (at least, less than the kart)
- no projectiles, though a good falcon shouldn't need them cuz he shouldn't really stop moving...
- no disjoint in hitboxes.

- Suffers from poor matchups against some of the same characters.... He really hates Pikachu, and ZSS I think gives him a disadvantage...

From a competitive standpoint, I'm not sure who would be the best secondary. But Falcon seems to be a step in the right direction...
Sorry I don't have more to add... we should ask some of the more experienced tourney players what they think.
 

pikazz

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
NNID
pikamaxi
#5
why I think Shulk, Jigglypuff, Greninja and Rob is great secondaries are:

Shulk:
+ he has good range, can jump high, run fast, can deal fast damage and can kill fast thanks by his monado arts!
+ many things are possible with him and he has lot of trickery and many ways to go, just like Jr.
+ his SH Nair is great approching tool and way to get through projectiles.
- he can be gimped easy, even with monado jump!

Jigglypuff:
+ she is a pure WoP thanks by her amazing recovery, lightness and attacks
+ Many of her attacks are priority, making her against example shulk a piece of cake thanks her attack has higher priority than monado
+ rest kills at 40 on light character and 50 on medium+heavy
+ some Disjoint hitboxes like Jr
- lacks projectiles, but doesnt really need it
- lightness is a double-edged sword, it makes her die easier
- shield break makes her instant KO

Greninja:
+ Greninjas speed is a big plus
+ Greninjas jump and recovery are top-notch
+ has projectile and a "push off" water stream
* tricky to master
- lacking kill moves

Rob:
+ similiarities in attribution between Jr and Rob makes rob a easy player to play as yet plays at completely diffirent playstyle
+ has 2 great projectiles that easy chip of damage and for approches
+ great kill options in many ways
+ reflecting move
- even if they are similiar in attributes, they can share the same weakness

these 4 removes some of Jr greatest weaknesses, but they do not remove all of his and they self either have their own weaknesses (that Jr removes) or that they have for their own!
 

V1cegrip

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
133
Location
My old account was hacked. Thus using this new one
#6
I disagree with anyone that says Jr. has a very gimpable recovery. if you don't make it back when forced to Up B then I don't think you are airdodging correctly, Jr. can airdodge almost immediately after he up B's, which should prevent most gimp attempts. Also kart gains you so much distance that you can mix up with a jump or spinout (spinout will beat a lot of arial challenges with good timing) that there shouldn't be too many times when you even have to worry about using Up B in a scary situation. Once again, when you are in a scary situation with Up B, airdodge should save you 90% of the time unless you have like a villager with a dair hanging over your head the moment you try and Up B.

My secondary is Ness and I use him just for the Lucario matchup so far. Lucario is definitely winnable for Jr., but so far Ness feels like easy mode when it comes to that particular matchup.
 

Glicnak

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 1, 2015
Messages
111
#8
why I think Shulk, Jigglypuff, Greninja and Rob is great secondaries are:

Shulk:
+ he has good range, can jump high, run fast, can deal fast damage and can kill fast thanks by his monado arts!
+ many things are possible with him and he has lot of trickery and many ways to go, just like Jr.
+ his SH Nair is great approching tool and way to get through projectiles.
- he can be gimped easy, even with monado jump!

Jigglypuff:
+ she is a pure WoP thanks by her amazing recovery, lightness and attacks
+ Many of her attacks are priority, making her against example shulk a piece of cake thanks her attack has higher priority than monado
+ rest kills at 40 on light character and 50 on medium+heavy
+ some Disjoint hitboxes like Jr
- lacks projectiles, but doesnt really need it
- lightness is a double-edged sword, it makes her die easier
- shield break makes her instant KO

Greninja:
+ Greninjas speed is a big plus
+ Greninjas jump and recovery are top-notch
+ has projectile and a "push off" water stream
* tricky to master
- lacking kill moves

Rob:
+ similiarities in attribution between Jr and Rob makes rob a easy player to play as yet plays at completely diffirent playstyle
+ has 2 great projectiles that easy chip of damage and for approches
+ great kill options in many ways
+ reflecting move
- even if they are similiar in attributes, they can share the same weakness

these 4 removes some of Jr greatest weaknesses, but they do not remove all of his and they self either have their own weaknesses (that Jr removes) or that they have for their own!
I think the things secondaries for jr need to cover for are (at least for the way i play him)
1. His kills will often rely on good reads, leading to potentially high percents/late kills against unpredictable opponents.
2. His moves are very telegraphed and punishable. Hes a very momentum based character and when momentum isnt yours he becomes easily punished for almost everything.
3. He can often be too slow to reliably punish some of the faster characters in the game.

To adress other complaints I often read about him:
Gimpable; with all the options and time you have using 2 jumps and cart+jump or spinout, AND airdodging or attacking with great priority out of upB, i dont think gimping is one of the bigger problems. Yes, it does happen and you feel helpless, but i dont think it should be happening often enough and consistently enough for it to be a reason to change character. Even so, most secondaries wont suffer the same gimping problems as jr anyway, so i dont think its worth considering.

Grab; his grab kinda sucks... But it also doesnt really set up into much. Its not worth using often anyways. Yeah its not great, but every character has a few bum moves. Jr has plenty of other option anyways.

He's slow/sucks at approaching/relies on the cart; he's definitely not the slowest and he does have cart to compensate. And his approaches once in the cart can be extremely varied and easy to space as long as you dont commit to unsafe options or to using the same patterns over and over. A lot about this has been said already, so ill leave it at that.

All that being said, choice of secondary clearly depends on how you play jr and the other characters. Personally, I feel as though good secondaries for him are characters with fast, safe options and reliable kill moves.

My BJr tends to put himself all out there. He racks up damage very quickly but can also easily get thrown off his game and become quickly overwhelmed. I think a good secondary should be able to punish this with a steadier game.

My suggestions would be:

Jigglypuff
(Pros have already been said. Good priority, strong attacks. Very attack reliant instead of special reliant. She feels like the opposite of bjr, but her air game feels like it controls almost the same)

Luigi
(Has some combo game but feels safer than bjr. Also has some reliable kill options)

Ness
(When chasing offstage just isnt working out for some reason, sit back and pk thunder! He's also pretty good at not getting overwhelmed. Back throw is a very good kill option and his grab is superb if youre feeling like youre having trouble killing)

Rosalina
(Shes really good and really safe. Maybe she isnt the best theoretical secondary to bjr but personally she has worked wonders at times when I was getting whooped. I dont put much weight into tiers but i think her tier status also adds an intimidation factor that Bjr often wont have)

Yoshi
(Not my personal choice, I suck with him but people have seemed to compare him to luigi so maybe someone else can expand on this. Also most of jr's top tier worst MUs seem to report trouble with yoshi. Iunno just thought I'd include it.)

These are just my thoughts, feel free to discuss or disagree :) this is just based on personal experience and what i notice watching more expert bjr players
 
Last edited:

pikazz

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
NNID
pikamaxi
#9
I disagree with anyone that says Jr. has a very gimpable recovery. if you don't make it back when forced to Up B then I don't think you are airdodging correctly, Jr. can airdodge almost immediately after he up B's, which should prevent most gimp attempts. Also kart gains you so much distance that you can mix up with a jump or spinout (spinout will beat a lot of arial challenges with good timing) that there shouldn't be too many times when you even have to worry about using Up B in a scary situation. Once again, when you are in a scary situation with Up B, airdodge should save you 90% of the time unless you have like a villager with a dair hanging over your head the moment you try and Up B.

My secondary is Ness and I use him just for the Lucario matchup so far. Lucario is definitely winnable for Jr., but so far Ness feels like easy mode when it comes to that particular matchup.
with gimp, I see that UpB will not trigger when you get a low knockback attack, it will not grant you another upB.
however, jr do have dodge, a third jump with SideB makes him more tricky to gimp if the opponent doesnt read you!

Lucario isnt undefeatable with Jr, since lucarios air attacks is so weak, DAir is predicable and are pretty easy to kill early on.
only the smash attacks and SideB on higher % hurts jr!

but ness seems like a good secondary to jr!
 

krazyzyko

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
2,126
Location
El Carajo, Puerto Rico
#11
Thats interesting. I feel like sonic has the same approach issues as jr. How do you get around that?
Sonic can easily penetrate and retreat effortlessly due to his amazing speed. So he can dictate the pace of the match. His grab comes out fast and with his dash its quite easy to catch the opp. And his B moves give him great tools for unpredictable recoveries.
 

V1cegrip

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
133
Location
My old account was hacked. Thus using this new one
#12
with gimp, I see that UpB will not trigger when you get a low knockback attack, it will not grant you another upB.
however, jr do have dodge, a third jump with SideB makes him more tricky to gimp if the opponent doesnt read you!

Lucario isnt undefeatable with Jr, since lucarios air attacks is so weak, DAir is predicable and are pretty easy to kill early on.
only the smash attacks and SideB on higher % hurts jr!

but ness seems like a good secondary to jr!
True, low knockback stuff does gimp you if it connects. Once in tournament I was gimped by d3's stars (Up B landing) after I was far ahead haha. Sometimes getting hit on stage after using Up B can gimp you if it's a low knockback move and you don't anticipate. In general though your airdodge ability after Up B should save you. It is a better choice to airdodge the ledge if you are scared, than it is to not airdodge and try and sweetspot it. Ya I agree, Jr. isn't terible vs Lucario, I just was looking for something that can seal the deal easier on Lucario and Ness was already my main in brawl so for that particular Matchup i practice Ness , otherwise I don't enjoy Ness in this game. Ludwig all the way!
 

The_Altrox

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
1,602
Location
Youngstown, OH
NNID
The_Altrox
#13
:069: Mii Brawler is slowly becoming my secondary. What about him as a complimentary character? Great grab game, but poor recovery, even with the dive kick down B

EDIT: But I may be changing this too. Not everything working out with this character.
 
Last edited:

Broom

Smash Ace
Premium
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
535
Location
North Carolina
NNID
MetallicBlur
Switch FC
SW-1415-6753-4608
#14
Falcon or Sonic are good choices. Falcon suffers from his poor recovery but he's really good at gimping recoveries and has a great grab/combo game. Sonic has a pretty good recovery, has a good combo/grab game and he's incredibly fast. Sonic is probably the better choice among the two but Falcon is more satisfying to use IMO and is still a solid choice. Zero Suit Samus is probably a good option too but I haven't used her that much myself.
 

Glicnak

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 1, 2015
Messages
111
#15
Falcon or Sonic are good choices. Falcon suffers from his poor recovery but he's really good at gimping recoveries and has a great grab/combo game. Sonic has a pretty good recovery, has a good combo/grab game and he's incredibly fast. Sonic is probably the better choice among the two but Falcon is more satisfying to use IMO and is still a solid choice. Zero Suit Samus is probably a good option too but I haven't used her that much myself.
Sonics approach game is too similar to bjr's in my opinion, he'd probablybhave a lot of the same problems
 

Reverbo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
23
#17
About BJr and Sonic having similar approuches: They do have similar approaches, but sonic has much more freedom out of his approaches (clown kart vs spin dash). Hes basically a safer Bjr when it comes to approaches, so the opponents inability to punish him as easily as BJr might throw them off. Seems like a solid secondary to me.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
17
NNID
Mariofan372
#19
Jr has a hard approach game and gets zoned by link, duck hunt, pacman, etc. a wall breaker or a rush down character or Mario/Dr. Mario may be good against the more sit back characters
 

Onoh

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
64
Location
Ohio
NNID
benclaremom
#20
R.O.B. is a great choice for dealing with zoning and counter-zoning and plays similarly to BowJow (that's why he's my other strongest main) with stage control and projectile combos. I also think Lucas would also be another great choice. HIs grab, although slow, has better follow-ups if you are into that sort of thing, he has a long reaching recovery, and has great mid-range zoning and ways to combat other zoners with a reflector, zair, and PSI magnet. Yes his recovery is gimpable, but pretty much any recovery can be gimped by some move.

Also i've noticed a lot of comments about Sonic. I can't play Sonic AT ALL but he seems to have better movement and a more dynamic play style.
 

Katzwinkel

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
19
3DS FC
3952-7305-2401
NNID
Gastlis
#21
I wanna see what people's opinions are now. Even though he's new, I think Cloud has the potential to be a good secondary for Jr. That's going based off the knowledge we have about the character so far, but he has air juggles like Jr, and seems to be better at dealing with disjoints and projectiles than he is.

I've tried giving both Sonic and MK a go. Sonic feels pretty good but MKs range throws me off pretty badly. Basically, what are Jrs primary bad matchups and who can cover them? It looks as though the consensus is Sonic.
 
Last edited:

Baby_Sneak

Smash Champion
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
2,029
Location
Middletown, Ohio
NNID
sneak_diss
#22
Bjr is actually my secondary, with doc Mario as my main. Bjr is very demanding of the execution, so I play my main when I have a bad day with bjr.
 

YSS

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
37
#23
Hey, what about Meta Knight as a secondary? He's may not be as fast as Falcon but he still has a fairly good dash grab. On top of that, he's got great recovery mix-ups (though I don't think Jr's recovery is terrible) and in general can be very tricky to intercept/punish with his great mobility and tools like Dimensional Cape. Meta Knight also seems much harder to dance circles around, a problem Jr can have against faster fighters or fighters with good zoning techniques.
 

JJtheDragon

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
10
3DS FC
0216-0918-4359
NNID
JJtheDragon
#24
I Like :4olimar: as a secondary. He's really good at zoning out some of the characters with long range that get in Jr's face,(:4marth:) and he can also out camp some of the other campy characters like :4villager:
 

Ridel

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
801
Location
Lucidia
NNID
Lowly_RiDEL
Switch FC
SW-3730-9751-0132
#25
I think :4pit:,:4darkpit:,and :4corrinf: are the best picks imo.

My main reasoning being there easy to pick up and play style and they cover a lot of cumbersome MU's. Though if you are looking for a character more difficult to master to spice up your life then Meta Knight is for you.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
639
3DS FC
2595-4014-1734
#28
I think :4pit:,:4darkpit:,and :4corrinf: are the best picks imo.

My main reasoning being there easy to pick up and play style and they cover a lot of cumbersome MU's. Though if you are looking for a character more difficult to master to spice up your life then Meta Knight is for you.
Yassssssssss pit all day your a good guy
 

Clock Tower Prison

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
251
Location
NY
3DS FC
5215-3120-4820
#32
Sounds familiar.
O wow didn't even mean it like that. But yeah it is like the other forums who main low to mid tier characters and say to just pick up fox or sheik for a bad MU but then what is the point of even having your first character?
 

Katzwinkel

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
19
3DS FC
3952-7305-2401
NNID
Gastlis
#33
Because they're fun to play. That's the reason you should play any character, really.

I personally find success with Cloud, but there's so many Clouds at my locals that I'm debating picking up Corrin instead. That said, I can understand wanting to drop Jr for a better character if he's not worth the effort. I like to think any character is worth the effort if you enjoy playing them, but losing can be frustrating.
 
Top Bottom