A Brief Guide to DI'ing Charizard's U-throw (And other moves upon request)

[Kink-Link5]

So this is going to be brief and only serves to really make Charizard worse, but is necessary to know for this metagame to mean anything relevant.

Charizard's U-throw is a hell of a good kill move, but there are probably some times when the Charizard player wonders "Why didn't it kill?" or the victim wonders "how the hell do you DI this"

Well the short answer to the latter question is, you don't for the most part. And it has to do with Triangles and fall speed.

The middle length answer is you DI the move slightly up to counteract gravity and move toward the top corner of the screen. This is due to the move sending at 60 degrees and character fall speed counteracting the vertical component of knockback to an extent.

The not really long answer goes into some basic geometry and vertex addition.

The goal of survival DI is to get launched in such a way that you go to the corner of the blast zones. This is because the distance to the corner is longer than both the distance to the top of the screen and the distance to the side of the screen. With most moves sending at the "Sakurai angle" or about 44 degrees at kill percent, this means typical DI is just a smidgen above pressing the top behind corner of the control stick to alter the launch angle by 18 degrees up to a nice 62 degrees that, due to the nature of fallspeed, causes the player to go up and to the side, right into that golden zone of the corner blast zone.

So with that established for a move that sends at 44 degrees, we observe again that Charizard's U-throws sends at 60 degrees. "The proper DI then, get one with it!" Well, that depends a bit on your character, but the simplest answer is, you don't DI the move, or you don't DI it all that much at the least, because the move already sends near the perfect survival angle. The only thing you have to worry about with DI is if your character is of the extremes of fallspeed. Space animals DI slightly more up, Jigglypuff DIs slightly down, but there is not much need to DI the move that much at all.

Now go on and get back to putting Charizard in D tier on your tier lists.

 

[Meme]

Really nice to know that, during APEX I played vs a Charizard and lost a stock really early due to DI to the side, I somehow thought it was a rather upwards DI in the end dying of the top, for a brief moment I thought of no DI but never did it.

I'll try it out next time, well that is if someone around here decides to play Charizard.

 

[metroid1117]

The proper survival DI becomes more interesting when you get thrown onto platforms or when you're a floaty character with very high %s (~130%) at the middle of the stage, but I agree with pretty much everything in the OP. Nice post Kink, although it will be harder to beat opponents once people start catching on .

On an unrelated note, do you know at what angle sweetspotted-FAir sends at with no DI? It seems like 45 degrees, but I'm not sure.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sweetspot (And sourspot) Fair hits on frame 10, deals 16 damage with 40 BKB and 100KBG, and sends at 60 degrees.

If I am interpreting the rest of the information correctly, the move terminates on frame 17 and then has 19 more frames of lag before it can be interrupted

Total 36
Hits: 10-16

The sourspot deals 11 damage with 35 BKB and 90 KBG sending at 70 degrees.

 

[metroid1117]

Thanks a lot Kink, that's extremely valuable information! I guess it's best to not DI sweetspot FAir very much, just like Seismic Toss.

And wow, it looks like Charizard can use FAir to beat out people who try to sweetspot.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Something worth trying out at the least. And hey, maybe if you edge cancel it it can get some easy followups, turn around jump bair maybe?

At some point I'll probably be making a Charizard moveset thread, but for now just keep doing your Chairzood thing and finding what works in application, metroid.

 

[bubbaking]

There needs to be a guide for this? DI'ing Zard's uthrow is one of the easiest things in the universe. It doesn't mean you'll live very long since it's a lot stronger now, but regardless, optimal DI for this move is quite simple. The move already sends you really close to the corner of most stages.

The proper survival DI becomes more interesting when you get thrown onto platforms or when you're a floaty character with very high %s (~130%) at the middle of the stage

With regards to the bolded statement, there simply isn't any "proper survival DI" when you're that high. You're pretty much dead on every stage except for the largest of the large (RF, DC, etc.) and only if Zard managed to initiate it facing the wrong way, from the wrong side of the stage, with no platforms around to utilize. Just yesterday, I killed JC's ROB at 90% from the middle of WW (so no platform aid) and it seemed like extreme overkill. For floaties above 100%, I doubt they could survive the move at all unless they were lucky.

 

[Kink-Link5]

There needs to be a guide for this? DI'ing Zard's uthrow is one of the easiest things in the universe. It doesn't mean you'll live very long since it's a lot stronger now, but regardless, optimal DI for this move is quite simple. The move already sends you really close to the corner of most stages.

Were that you read the OP, this is exactly what I said.

 

[bubbaking]

I admittedly didn't read the OP because I fit everything anyone needs to know about DIing the move into three lines of text. It's nice that you kinda touched upon the Sakurai angle, though. Perhaps you should also explain how DI in general works to help those who are a little more clueless with DI. For instance, only input directions that are perpendicular to the regular, neutral, 'unchanged' trajectory will affect DI at all and it will only affect that trajectory by a max of 18 degrees.

 

[JOE!]

*sees hitbox picture*

Perhaps I should do what I did for ivysaur here...

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm fully capable of making a gif of the move; metroid just asked for the first active frame so I retrieved just that.

 

[bubbaking]

You don't understand. JOE makes the best hitbox/frame data threads.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

yay, please do that!!

 

[JOE!]

as per usual I found something neat:

Up B grounded has intangibility on your whole body frames 1-4, frame 4 also has 2 hit bubbles for 11% each covering pretty much all of you until frame 6 with what I believe to be good KB.

use UpB OoS more lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, I'm going to stun everyone with a nice mention of Kink and say that Kink actually discovered that grounded upB has intangibility first. He posted that on Smods. Granted, it was for v2.1, but I guess it just transferred over.

UpB OoS is a nice kill/GTFO-at-high-%'s option if the opponent mis-spaces an attack on Zard's shield, but I honestly wouldn't use it that much. It's too risky and the range isn't that great. You float in the air at the apex of the ascent for a year and then you descend reeaaally slooooooowly. It's not like Diddy's upB which has great hitboxes, puts detachable barrels out extremely early (frame 1?), kills, and has NO LANDING LAG!

 

[JOE!]

Just a preview that looks cool

[collapse="Gahlike"]

[/collapse]

it'll be broken up when I'm done with it, but the full image shows how gahlike it really is

 

[Vashimus]

I thought this thread just said "A Brief Guide to DI'ng" until I clicked it. I sighed.

 

[metroid1117]

Just a preview that looks cool

[collapse="Gahlike"]

[/collapse]

it'll be broken up when I'm done with it, but the full image shows how gahlike it really is

Looooooooooooooool that's pretty funny. I can't wait for the completed thread!

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

this thread is pretty derailed :D why don*t you guys use the general topic, it could use some lifting.
i mentioned it in the general thread aswell a while back (dunno if here or on smashmods) that UpB OoS is actually quick and can kill at high%. didn't know about intangbla though. what does it do? ungrabable?

@vashimus: you want a shorter version? here it is: "don't."

edit: Lol, that nair hitbox picture is hilarious!!

 

[JOE!]

Intangible means you are unhittable/grabbable.

 

[bubbaking]

this thread is pretty derailed :D why don*t you guys use the general topic, it could use some lifting.
i mentioned it in the general thread aswell a while back (dunno if here or on smashmods) that UpB OoS is actually quick and can kill at high%. didn't know about intangbla though. what does it do? ungrabable?

@vashimus: you want a shorter version? here it is: "don't."

edit: Lol, that nair hitbox picture is hilarious!!

This thread honestly has run its course. There's no need to talk about the original main topic anymore. Anyone who didn't know how to DI Zard's uthrow, or couldn't figure it out after the first time, should know how to do it now. Any additional posts on this thread, including most of metroid's, are probably 'derailing' ones, unless Kink expands the title's scope. I've also mentioned the possible use of upB OoS as a kill move on Smods, but it was brought to my attention how risky it is, both because of its lag and the fact that it depends inherently on both the opponent's lag AND his bad spacing. Not very reliable if you ask me. It's better to just not be caught in shield in the first place. Try to intercept approaches with jab, tilts, and aerials. If upB OoS will work when the opponent is in front of you, shieldgrab will probably work as well. If worst comes to worst, WD, roll, or jump out. WD could lead into jabs and tilts and stuff, and a jump can be covered with nair.

 

[Oracle]

Shoutouts tp strong bad for teaching me how to di this in the middle of playing metroid

 

[bubbaking]

Shout-outs to everyone who's DI'd this badly for me..........AFTER DI'ing it correctly the first time!

 

[Kink-Link5]

Just a preview that looks cool

[collapse="Gahlike"]

[/collapse]

it'll be broken up when I'm done with it, but the full image shows how gahlike it really is

this is literally all you need to know about nair.

 

[Kink-Link5]

This thread honestly has run its course. There's no need to talk about the original main topic anymore. Anyone who didn't know how to DI Zard's uthrow, or couldn't figure it out after the first time, should know how to do it now. Any additional posts on this thread, including most of metroid's, are probably 'derailing' ones, unless Kink expands the title's scope. I've also mentioned the possible use of upB OoS as a kill move on Smods, but it was brought to my attention how risky it is, both because of its lag and the fact that it depends inherently on both the opponent's lag AND his bad spacing. Not very reliable if you ask me. It's better to just not be caught in shield in the first place. Try to intercept approaches with jab, tilts, and aerials. If upB OoS will work when the opponent is in front of you, shieldgrab will probably work as well. If worst comes to worst, WD, roll, or jump out. WD could lead into jabs and tilts and stuff, and a jump can be covered with nair.

Topic is now about DI'ing Charizard's moves in general. In other words, a strictly anti-charizard thread, so to say. Or at least, a "These things should really be known for people playing against Charizard."

 

[MaxThunder]

as per usual I found something neat:

Up B grounded has intangibility on your whole body frames 1-4, frame 4 also has 2 hit bubbles for 11% each covering pretty much all of you until frame 6 with what I believe to be good KB.

use UpB OoS more lol.

woot proof that up-b oos IS really good=)... is nice against spacies=)...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Up-B OoS is pretty terrible lol. Use it wrong once and you're open to even **** like Ganon's standard B.

Just, be mad careful if you're going to try that kind of thing, even as a surprise attack.

 

[bubbaking]

First time ever, I think, that I liked one of Kink's posts. What has the world come to.....?

He's right, though. The move seems nice against spacees because bad spacees tend to misspace their attacks or simply don't pay attention to spacing at all. Combined with missed L-cancels on their aerials and missed jump cancels on their shines, this makes them prone to being messed up by even the most illegitimate jank. Against any decent player, upB OoS will rarely work and it will work even LESS at a % where it would be safe on hit.

 

[Ace55]

Bubba you're this close to going on my ignore list again.

Between having platforms to land on and picking the right time to use it I'm pretty confident this will be useful in spacie matchups.

 

[Strong Badam]

Shoutouts tp strong bad for teaching me how to di this in the middle of playing metroid

I AM THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PROJECT M

 

[bubbaking]

Bubba you're this close to going on my ignore list again.

Between having platforms to land on and picking the right time to use it I'm pretty confident this will be useful in spacie matchups.

You think I actually give a hoot about whether you ignore me or not? Lolz, these forums are a joke, especially when it comes to competitive discussions!

I main Melee Samus. My very first main was Bowser. I KNOW about upB's OoS and landing on plats to make them safe. I do it all the time. You think I didn't consider this when I said that Zard's upB OoS is crappy? Any good spacee main won't give you a good time to use this strat, ESPECIALLY when they're at death %'s. First of all, any good spacee main who doesn't care about letting you play will camp you out anyway. That aside, even SAMUS can have trouble upBing OoS against a good spacee main. In perfect shine pressure, you only have a couple frames in some scenarios to land that frame 1 invincibility and get out. In most cases, if the spacee is aware of your ability to upB OoS and spaces his moves, he will waveshine away from you, just to bait that kind of reaction.

I tried to use Zard's upB OoS waaay back in 2.1, even BEFORE I knew that it had intangibility on it. Then Kink posted that it had frame 1 invincibility or something and I tried to use it even more. This was back when Zard's upB was MUCH better than it is now, 'cause even if you 'flubbed', it could still kill. This move literally only worked when the spacee completely messed up and was practically on top of me, and no spacee in his right mind will find himself in that position against your shield, not when you have a great shieldgrab in front of you and a good nair OoS behind you. Due to the way shine pressure works, it's really hard to react to the type of pressure that the spacee is using. It's basically a true mix-up. Therefore, you have to kinda predict when a good time to upB OoS is.

Now, about landing on plats, again this move simply isn't good. Samus is slippery and mobile enough to reliably edge-cancel her upB landing lag on most plats, and the landing lag is pretty low regardless. Neither of these applies to Zard, I believe. His upB feels more similar to Marth's upB, slidiness and lag both. Then you have to remember that he literally 'hangs' in the air at his upB's ascent. This is VERY useful when recovering, as it outlasts a lot of edgehog rolls, but it's the exact opposite of useful in pretty much every other scenario. That hang-time makes even going for top plats take for ages.

Finally, you have to be completely certain you will hit with the very start of the move. Again, this is completely inferior to Samus, who doesn't care when she hits you with the upB as long as she hits you. Charizard's upB is unsafe ON HIT if you don't connect with the killing portion of the move at the start. Even that killing portion isn't worth it if the opponent isn't actually at death %'s. The move can still be punished really hard, especially if teched, thanks to that nonsensical hang-time. I can't state enough how much no actually GOOD spacee in his right mind will just let you upB him OoS.

Since we're talking about spacees, it's worth mentioning that even landing on a plat can get us punished by uair. No plat = usmash.

I understand that you live in Europe, Ace. Your post-bit says Amsterdam. Well, maybe you guys don't really respect Fox 'cause of PAL Melee or maybe there aren't many good spacee players there or something but over here, Foxes know to spam their usmash, spikes don't really give a ****, and at-least-decent spacee mains are rampant.

Zard is not so different now that suddenly, tactics that COULD have worked in 2.1 will suddenly start working in 2.5. His most gameplay-changing alterations were his throws (all of them except fthrow) and his upB's ability to really flub now. UpB's OoS didn't work back then. They won't really work now.

By all means though, if the opponent really, really screws up and ends up on top of you in a bad situation at high %'s, by all means, upB that motha***** into the next dimension.

 

[Ace55]

I understand that you live in Europe, Ace. Your post-bit says Amsterdam. Well, maybe you guys don't really respect Fox 'cause of PAL Melee or maybe there aren't many good spacee players there or something but over here, Foxes know to spam their usmash, spikes don't really give a ****, and at-least-decent spacee mains are rampant.

This is kinda stuff that pisses me off. Just in Holland alone we have three spacie mains who have made bracket at international american tournaments (Zgetto, Remen, Adam). And at least 50% of dutch players main/co-main spacies. So when you start bull****ting about: GOOD spacies won't do this, GOOD spacies won't do that it's just, well laughable. You can give your opinion on something but you are by no means the authority when it comes to smash. You're not even an authority when it comes to Samus judging by your posts...

 

[bubbaking]

Well perhaps you can start proving how invalid my post is by addressing the points I brought up.

Oh, you have three spacee mains who "made bracket" at internationals? Big whoop. I have personal friends who made bracket at nationals and internationals, personal friends who are around my skill level or are even worse than me. Making bracket literally means nothing unless you got into the top 32 or something. I don't care how many of you main or co-main spacees. That doesn't mean you are playing the character correctly or even understand the character. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you actually don't know the char, but just saying you main him doesn't prove that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing with him.

I never said I was an authority on Smash, but when you say something like, "Bubba you're this close to going on my ignore list again. Between having platforms to land on and picking the right time to use it I'm pretty confident this will be useful in spacie matchups," you yourself begin to sound like you think you're an authority, which you aren't.

Btw, good work taking the bait. It's called trash-talk.

 

[Ace55]

Well perhaps you can start proving how invalid my post is by addressing the points I brought up.

Arguing with you is pointless and pretty much everyone who has tried has given up on it...

I state my opinion on something, you state things like they're facts even when you don't have a clue. You once argued with me when I said there are virtually no Samus's in Europe, and now you show you have absolutely no clue about the EU or Dutch scene. I'm not gonna look up said players placings, they placed high. When have you ever made bracket at Pound and such? Who are these 'personal friends'? These forums aren't a joke but people like you make it look like it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Just put him on your ignore list like the rest of us do, Ace. You have nothing to learn from reading his posts.

 

[Ace55]

Done.

10dones

 

[bubbaking]

I state my opinion on something, you state things like they're facts even when you don't have a clue. You once argued with me when I said there are virtually no Samus's in Europe, and now you show you have absolutely no clue about the EU or Dutch scene. I'm not gonna look up said players placings, they placed high. When have you ever made bracket at Pound and such? Who are these 'personal friends'? These forums aren't a joke but people like you make it look like it.

Eagle is pretty well-known, but I don't remember ever arguing with anyone about there being no Sami in Europe since I don't particularly know or care about that particular subject. I'm gonna chalk this up to you pinning any ridiculous argument you've ever had on me.

Lolz, Ben Grimm and Knut are two very close friends of mine and G$ is also a training partner in the same 'crew' as us. All of them have made bracket numerous times at nationals like Zenith 2012, APEX 2013, and ROM 5. Ben Grimm and Knut, in particular, have always placed quite high, and Knut is a fellow Samus main whom I've played countless times with. I'd say we're around the same skill level, maybe with him as slightly better, but we've only entered the same tournament together once ever and I placed MUCH higher than him at said tourney, so...

Edit: In short, you're either silly or too keen to 'prove yourself' if you think that just placing at a national actually means anything.

People like you make this forum a joke because you provide food for trolls who aren't even trolling but are simply exercising a little trash-talk that no one in the Smash community should be unexposed to.

 

[Jacob29]

Surprisingly I'm going to ask about something related to the topic.

What do you do against charizard when he just uses his flame breath over a ledge?

Specifically when you are below the ledge?

Is the only option to sweet spot the ledge into a roll?

 

[JOE!]

Use ledgehop invincibility frames to either counter attack (spacing dependent) o try to go over the flames to a platform. If not, yeah a roll should be able to work unless Zard is far away enough to cover it with the flamethrower.

Other than that, it degrades with time so if you wait a bit you'll have more space to DI out of it when you get on stage.

 

[bubbaking]

Zard's flamethrower at the ledge is one of the cheapest things in the history of P:M. Ledgehop invincibility does indeed work, but rolling often does not for many characters. Even after the fthrower has fully degraded, it can still catch rolls and other normal get-ups. John Numbers and myself have taken to calling this the "spacee killer" because we have yet to see a spacee make it through this move without dying, and we have some big names on the list.