A 3.6 Mario MU Thread: ASK YOUR QUESTIONS HERE

[Jonyc128]

That's why I said if you're feeling ballsy, you only use that option to put someone on tilt otherwise just got for the safe invincible ledgedrop bair or if you're not comfortable in edgeguading Ike's upB, fireball from stage

 

[Trollinguy]

There's always room for swag.

 

[GeZ]

There's always room for swag.

Marth will straight, end your life, my man.

 

[Jonyc128]

Yea never swag on Marth, a good one will make you instantly regret it lol

 

[Scatz]

They're the same character in PM. Just aesthetic changes.

 

[Trollinguy]

Actually doesn't Doc have an electric effect on his forward smash that increases hitstun by 1.5? I know it's not in the change log but I believe I heard it somewhere else.

Edit: Also the freeze frames are increased by 1.5?

 

[GeZ]

Actually doesn't Doc have an electric effect on his forward smash that increases hitstun by 1.5? I know it's not in the change log but I believe I heard it somewhere else.

Edit: Also the freeze frames are increased by 1.5?

Nope. Electrical effect is just visual now, and it was changed to a light effect anyway.

 

[Trollinguy]

Nope. Electrical effect is just visual now, and it was changed to a light effect anyway.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Jonyc128]

Actually Doc's Fsmash is electric now, Sarton confirmed when I asked a while ago

 

[Trollinguy]

Actually Doc's Fsmash is electric now, Sarton confirmed when I asked a while ago

So does it still have the multiplayer then?

 

[Jonyc128]

It has more hitlag now yea

 

[TFerg]

Marth being 70:30 is vastly, vastly overstated imo. Mario has amazing combos and edgeguards on Marth, but obviously neutral is in his favor. 60:40 at worst imo, even at best.

 

[Jonyc128]

I've always thought Marth was 60/40 Fox is 60/40 or 55/45 and Falco was either 50/50 or 55/45 for this patch

 

[RelaxAlax]

That good huh?

How do you tackle a fight against Marth? What do you do to beat him in neutral?

 

[Jonyc128]

That good huh?

How do you tackle a fight against Marth? What do you do to beat him in neutral?

Lol no the Marth MU isn't good at all, it's Mario's worst and honestly I'm pretty sure the basis of neutral is to basically bait Marth to use one of his laggier moves. Maybe fullhop fireball waveland

 

[RelaxAlax]

Maybe i'll just go Ganon that matchup, simply because I have to put up with less interactions and hits to kill that asshole

 

[TFerg]

I dunno, our #1 player uses mario as a cp to our best Marth, who is also our #2 melee player (Marth MU vs fox is much, much easier in pm and he just gets destroyed) and he does really well. Pills force an interaction from marth, one grab can basically equal death while mario can escape combos with decent di. I certainly wouldnt claim that it's not hard for Mario, but he definitely has tools to deal with it in pm because he can consistently kill Marth off a grab, and can edgeguard him really well.

 

[Maveric1]

I need help against luigi. I don't know what my game plan should be in neutral when going into the match. I also don't know what stages would benefit me against luigi or the best way to edgeguard him.

 

[Keman]

I'm sure I am not the best one to answer this, but I believe you can Bair trade with Luigi's recovery's if you can get out there and bair (granted no green missile) Id assume ledge invincible Bair is good to use on a lot of the cast.

I always just try to remind myself that Luigi can stall recovery with that Tornado pretty damn good and it might throw you off, but I always try to think about the extra recovery hang time for Luigi and time that cape to make him sweet spot UpB or die.

As for as stages go I would just think the regular good Mario stages would be good like PS and FD avoiding that 3rd top tier platform (I've no idea if Luigi can even make good use of that or not)

 

[Jonyc128]

Against Luigi you want to stuff his approach with fireballs, since they clank with his down B. Luigi will rarely jump to approach you unless he's trying to attack you/your shield, due to his low aerial mobility.

When he attacks your shield, be cognizant of the fact that he can use two aerials off a SH, it'll usually be fair/fair, fair/nair, fair/dair, or dair/nair.

When you're comboing him, always try to bait out his combo breaker nair and punish it. You can do this by SH like you're going to followup then WD back, WD in and punish with either uptilt SH upair upsmash or maybe an up angled Fsmash.

For edgeguarding, you can use fireballs to limit where he can use his Down B, if you're fast enough you can also cape his UpB, but most of the time either a drop zone bair or invincible ledgehop bair will do the trick.

 

[Maveric1]

Thanks for the tips. I'll use fireballs against his recovery as well as the nair bait technique. I'll also try to incorporate drop zone bair in my edgeguard against Luigi

 

[Gnarkill Evan]

As a player new to PM with some Melee experience and a lot of 4 play time (invalid in the eyes of many) I choose Mario as my main and have been playing pretty well recently. What is something I should do to continue to improve with him

 

[Jonyc128]

Well what can you do with him right now?

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Marth being 70:30 is vastly, vastly overstated imo. Mario has amazing combos and edgeguards on Marth, but obviously neutral is in his favor. 60:40 at worst imo, even at best.

I definetly agree. its been a while since ive been on the boards and there is alot of information in here i want to change around
65: 35 is better but thats a stupid number. Sometimes it can feel really bad if the marth is spacing super well or Double F-airing Pills. I feel that 60:40 is underestimating it, while 70:30 is overestimating it.

If the mario is a good player, the MU gets ALOT better. At blacklisted Gahlo was doing super well against Sora and won in a super close, super hype off stream set(last Match gahlo was up by 3 stocks. it was almost a 4 stock). Wish their was better MU footage.

I need help against luigi. I don't know what my game plan should be in neutral when going into the match. I also don't know what stages would benefit me against luigi or the best way to edgeguard him.

Good B-Air Spacing does wonders in this MU. Bair in the space whehre luigi can wavedash in/ Down B In.

If its off stage edgeguarding a well TIMED and SPACED B-air can work really well.

Since luigi is floaty he gets outta combos easier. so learn to take 2 hits and end the combo. DD away and wait for him to throw out a N-air or something. Most luigis Nair to get out of combos. Sometimes if you just Shield when you know they want to N-Air, you can get a sheild grab.

Also Up tilt stuff out his aerials and combo's luigi to hell.

BTW im going to delete the sheik and C.F MU info to not spread bad INFO. Instead im just gunna add snippets of solid info ik to be correct. IF anyone has any kind of insight in any MU it is greatly apperciated.

Next full MU spread: DDD, Lucas( might be kinda light or get add-ons)
C.F, Sheik, Ike<=== side info will be given to these characters

 

[Qazzquimby]

What notable chaingrabs does mario have besides fox?

 

[Jonyc128]

Spacies, Falcon, MK, Diddy, Lucas, Sheik, Link, Ganondorf off the top of my head

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

DDD MU please tear it apart if its wrong or i can add info or w.e have you.

60:40 Mario

DDD has a pretty difficult time with mario, but you wouldnt notice it if you don't know the MU. DDD weight/fallspeed allows him to get pieced up nicely by mario. The Punish game isnt the hardest part of this MU. Its the getting in and staying in.

Neutral: Mario wins the neutral. He faster, he's smaller he has alot mroe to work with. Where is DDD has be really strategic about how he goes about the MU. The first rule of thumb should be to stay in the middle of the stage at all times. If you lose stage control you might just lose your stock. DDD is does really well with stage control. Thats like 90% of his game IMO. STAY AWAY FROM THE EDGE. DDD thing is gimping, moves like DDD fair covers alot of space as well as his ftilt and other spacing tools; so yea don't do it bruh. also his back air is pretty dangerous. DDD also gets good tech chases off of grab so be wary of that as well. DO NOT LET THE WADDLE DEES WALK AROUND. thats essentially how DDD moves around, its burst movement that could convert into a grab. Just kill them when you can. Don't let them surround you neither. F tilt or Dsmash are strong and quick enough to get the job done. ALSO pill clanks with F-tilt so yea.... and any other normals for that matter.(that doesnt mean aerials)

Punish Game: Punish hard, chain grab(with down throw), d-throw combos w.e have you. TBH their isnt much to this for DDD. Up tilts are super deadly on him and if You grab him you should be taking 40-50%. DOwn throw fair kills stupid early, 80 i believe(could be wrong but still early AF)

Edgeguarding: More often than not you might just outright kill DDD before you edgeguard him. DDD an waddle dash in the air. He typically uses that to get closer to the stage. Becareful of trying to edgeguard during that moment. A Good DDD main might only show you short air waddle dashes, then use a super long and quick one when you get closer. Be aware. As for DDD's up b, Mario's cape will be your best friend for this MU. DDD has to go into special fall if he wants to grab ledge with his Up B. REMEMBER THAT. If DDD is below the stage trying to recover, that severally limits his options. FOr the most part he's going to have to opt to go on stage. From there you can follow up F-air or w.e. Remember upon landing two star shaped hitboxes, come out the sides off DDD.

How to recovery: lmao give up. DDD is extremely strong at gimping. Every time you recover sucessfully consider it a blessing. Our recovery is rather linear and easy for DDD players to read and edgeguard. DDD's F-Air covers a ridiculous amount of spaces. Also his B-air feels like it was made to gimp ._. Use fireballs as much as you can when recovering from high, to disrupt DDD. From below if DDD trys to come out and gimp to early, You could beat him out with the begining of your Up B since its invincible. Also save your jumps it could be critical to you recovering. alsoo ALWAYS SWEET SPOT.

What can we crouch cancel: idrk tbh. CC wont be happening as much in this MU. Also even if you did CC(lets say his Nair) you might get grabbed because of it.

What stages to pick: Not battlefield(this is DDD's play gorund), General rule of thumb the less pllatforms the better. Also the smaller the better. NOT DREAMLAND. PS2, Ghz(?),Smashville. Yoshi story is good because its small, but the platform style does aid him more than you.

Info From a DDD main( Kinje thanks man):
Yeah, it's pretty well established that this match up is good for Mario. Dedede doesn't really have any non-read-based combos against a Mario with solid DI, while Mario's dash attack, nair, jab, down throw and up throw pretty much set up into a guaranteed follow up on Dedede until about 90%, and oftentimes higher if the D3 player in question doesn't have really good DI. Mario has a far better projectile, and as such doesn't have to approach Dedede unsafely, thus making Dedede's stronger zoning tools (big disjoints, crazy shield grab, aimable projectile) not all that useful in the matchup. His dash speed and wavedash are better, and he's overall a faster and less laggy character, with the exception of fall speed. His side b and and down bs' stall properties also give him good mix ups on DDD's shield which, combined with the king's already lackluster OOS options, make it really rough to get out of shield pressure and back into neutral once Mario spaces a fireball that dedede can't power-shield on reaction.
Additionally, cape+dedede's unsweetspottable recovery=easy gimps.

The one area dedede beats Mario is, as per the usual, offstage. However, Mario has a pretty unique and amazing recovery, that can be mixed up a lot if you have good DI and save your double jump. If you recover high, you can also usually throw out a fireball then airdodge back to the stage safely.

Honestly, the only reason it even seems close to even as a MU is that very few Mario players have any experience with the matchup.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Lucas Notes:

Lucas Gets chained grabbed pretty silly. I don't know exactly when the CG ends(maybe around 50%), even after you lose the re-grabs, you still have pretty strong follow up on the guy. Most notable Up smash, up tilt, up air, w.e.

Pk freeze is a pretty strong part of lucas's game. Like With the link MU. this will be a prejectile heavy MU. You are going to want to cape PK freeze's when you can. Nair Approach is also pretty solid on PK freeze. I would (like with the link MU) the moment lucas tries to pk freeze(that standing one is more laggy and free for this option. The DJC or double jump cancel one may be a b it harder.) approach with N-air if lucas is close enough. That way it beats out the projectile while hitting him.

Edge guarding: Lucas is pretty easy to cape if he uses his PK thunder 2 recovery. Though this option is a last resort for lucas. Lucas has a tether, a nice jump, and a stall option in his magnet. To negate the tether just grab ledge. For the most part this leave lucas with 2 options. 1) when he tether recovers he has to land on the stage, then you can follow up with a Fair. 2) Lucas can just fade back after being popped up from the ledge (which is a popular option amongst higher level) to fake you out and re grab the ledge safely. You can beat out the second option by simply holding on to the ledge. Lucas cannot tether again after tethering and being popped up the first time.
Also magnet eats up shield and double magnet on shield is ridiculous.

Captain Falcon: i decided the CF mu list wasn't so horrible just needed tweaks. Please add to it if you can.

Sheik: Same as Captain Falcon. Please add if you have input.

Ike Notes:
im whack so i suck at this MU...... his recovery is supposedly easy for mario to gimp via back air or cape. just wait for a opportune time during his Up B. You can sheild grab his Nair. You can't really chain grab him, but still have solid conversion.

 

[Jonyc128]

To add to your Lucas MU in terms of punish game, if Lucas DIs downthrow out around 50-70% you can just toss out a forward smash and it'll sweet spot and either kill if they DI bad or put him in a situation where he has to recover unless you're on a big stage like FD, PS2, Dreamland, etc

 

[Gambanjo]

after u-tilt, at most I can only get like 2 u-airs before the opponent is out of my reach (based on percent of course). either that or I tend to opt for down/f-smash way too early and end my combo strings. any tips to get the most out of combos as mario?

 

[Jonyc128]

after u-tilt, at most I can only get like 2 u-airs before the opponent is out of my reach (based on percent of course). either that or I tend to opt for down/f-smash way too early and end my combo strings. any tips to get the most out of combos as mario?

Who are you trying to combo?

 

[Gambanjo]

Who are you trying to combo?

sonic/D3/falcon/fox/link just some of the characters my friends play. Any advice would be helpful

 

[KOA_Dio]

sonic/D3/falcon/fox/link just some of the characters my friends play. Any advice would be helpful

Percent dependent. iirc those dudes are combo food sans D3. Could you be more specific about situations?

 

[Gambanjo]

Percent dependent. iirc those dudes are combo food sans D3. Could you be more specific about situations?

with sonic, falcon and fox it really feels like he controls space better and forces me to make bad choices. it never feels like i earn the kill, I just throw out a randy move and catch him cuz none of us are expectig it. and d3 and link just sheild grab me to death. i kick myself everytime i fall for it. any tips for controlling space, winning in neutral and combo extension would help

 

[Jonyc128]

What stages are you taking them too first of all?

 

[Gambanjo]

What stages are you taking them too first of all?

we go everywhere tbh. PS2, yoshi's, smashville, battlefield, FOD. We just select at random

 

[Jonyc128]

Well against Sonic, you can stuff his approaches with nairs or fireballs

 

[Gambanjo]

Well against Sonic, you can stuff his approaches with nairs or fireballs

my friends and i played again today. I didn't win a single one on one tho. despite that, it doesnt feel bad. my fundamentals were all there. all the matches went down to the last stock i just had trouble closing it out. I couldn't hit d-thow to fair for the life of me tho.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

Are you sure about that fox matchup? I don't think i've lost to a fox with mario befor...

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

sonic/D3/falcon/fox/link just some of the characters my friends play. Any advice would be helpful

Fox and falcon are fast fallers. Up throw works best in this match up. Even if the chain grab ends you can still convert strongly. Fox can die like at 80-100 from a up throw fair. If falcon comes at you with aerials hold your ground and up tilt. Up tilt beats aerials. Sometimes the trade but that is more due to improper timing.

Link gets CG till about 40% iirc. I find that up airs into up tilts are good against link. Though that depends on their DI, how good you are etc. Down throw F-air kills.

Sonic - pretty much the same thing as Link. If Sonic decides he doesnt want to approach, it can become a problem. dont get impatient and find ways to manipulate your opponents. Pills work best for that.

As for D3 his weight/fall speed make him silly combo food. he almost combos himself. Down throw into anything. up airs into anything. Its silly

If your getting shield grabbed it mean your being predictable. If you really want safe move on shield, a well spaced F-air will do the job. When you notice your opponent shield grabs alot, try buffer spot dodge upon landing. If you use a late aerial on a shield you can cover yourself with a jab.

Are you sure about that fox matchup? I don't think i've lost to a fox with mario befor...

I am pretty sure. The MU is definitely not in Marios favor. Fox has all the tools to make mario approach. Fox's speed makes it difficult to keep up with him at times. Nair > shine make shield grab punishes difficult. He doesnt truly have to approach mario.

Also iirc Spacies have higher air priority than mario. they definitely did in melee.

Maybe the Fox's in your area aren't that good.
Maybe your just that much of a better player than people in your area.

For the most part Fox does win this MU, but that doesn't mean you cant win.