AssTAStic_ACA
Smash Apprentice
GUYS IF YOU HAVE MATCH UP QUESTIONS JUST ASK HERE PLEASE.
I'm making this in an attempt to bring some construction(and some life) to the mario side of the PM board. I notice alot of threads being started up for specific match up questions(mario v sonic, v marth). Also noticed some constructive information from other members other than people like nameless(or glaceon), Gez etc. First off I KNOW THERE IS ALREADY A MU LIST. No one has answered that forum in months, and it looks some of the information that the thread offered was not archived properly. I will however be using the relevant information from that thread and put it in this one. As well as relevant information brought up in the other threads. Its going to take some time to do this, so please be patient if i didnt put up everything right away.
EDIT: i got pretty much all the match up ever discussed here now.
The goal of this will be to discuss a character MU one at a time changing character every week or so; or just change it when the topic is covered to completion.
AGAIN If you want a certain character to be discussed just bring it up,just MAKE SURE YOU GUYS STAY ON THE TOPIC AT HAND!!! If you just jump into this thread make sure you check the latest post so you know what we are talking about; As to not to derail the discussion. If you want to start up discussion a certain character at least check to make sure we did not already discuss that character.
start by addressing the the
Neutral game
Punish game
Edge guarding
How to recover against the character
What can we Crouch Cancel
Stages to pick.
pretty much any other things come to mind in the MU.
Edit: DDD MU was just added 9/16/2015
General good advice -
for spacie match by Gez: They're easily comboable/ gimpable/ murderable, so all the difficulty and importance of those matchups are the neutral. If you want to beat space animals you have to do it in the neutral game.
Mario does not have alot of range and does not do well against people with large/alot disjoints. (Fire Emblem, M2)
Up tilts is an anti air. Use it when you can. Stay ground as much as you can.
A must watch. Though this video does not feature mario, its concepts are critical to being a good mario player.
From melee doc boards credit to SmashMac -
Tip#2
If you're going to spam pills, spam them correctly. You should be throwing pills to create a wall of defense that makes your opponent have a hard time just getting to you.(definition on how to Spam correctly can change per MU)
Also once 3.6 kicks in the MU List will be updated . though i think for Mario his match ups will remain pretty much the same
I'm making this in an attempt to bring some construction(and some life) to the mario side of the PM board. I notice alot of threads being started up for specific match up questions(mario v sonic, v marth). Also noticed some constructive information from other members other than people like nameless(or glaceon), Gez etc. First off I KNOW THERE IS ALREADY A MU LIST. No one has answered that forum in months, and it looks some of the information that the thread offered was not archived properly. I will however be using the relevant information from that thread and put it in this one. As well as relevant information brought up in the other threads. Its going to take some time to do this, so please be patient if i didnt put up everything right away.
EDIT: i got pretty much all the match up ever discussed here now.
The goal of this will be to discuss a character MU one at a time changing character every week or so; or just change it when the topic is covered to completion.
AGAIN If you want a certain character to be discussed just bring it up,just MAKE SURE YOU GUYS STAY ON THE TOPIC AT HAND!!! If you just jump into this thread make sure you check the latest post so you know what we are talking about; As to not to derail the discussion. If you want to start up discussion a certain character at least check to make sure we did not already discuss that character.
start by addressing the the
Neutral game
Punish game
Edge guarding
How to recover against the character
What can we Crouch Cancel
Stages to pick.
pretty much any other things come to mind in the MU.
Edit: DDD MU was just added 9/16/2015
*CREDIT GOES TO MR.Random*
55:45 Mario or even depending on stages
Neutral Game: Bowser out-ranges us so what he is going to be doing usually is spacing his aerials against us, so dash dancing outside his range is the key to our success. Bait out one of Bowser's laggy moves. Also use fireballs a good distance because he can fair right through and punish you. You can camp him out on bigger stages but on small stages you need to be cautious. If he corners you, you can camp on the ledge if you have the lead until he does something stupid then ledge dash and punish.
Punish Game: Grab punishes are important, you can chain grab, get a free 50+%, and start a long string. Watch out for his nair which is a great combo breaker, bait it out if you can and get another grab. You want to kill him with Fsmash or Fair or Down throuw > Fair which you can combo into easily with down throw or up air.
Edgeguarding: Edgeguarding Bowser is a piece of cake. He can only recover high or sweet spot. While his Up B does have a good hitbox you can use the cape to refresh your invincibility and bair him to oblivion. If he recovers high then ledge jump cape and he should be gone. Take advantage off this to get early kills.
How to recover against them: A good Bowser is not easy to recover against. When recovering above you want to throw fireballs to keep him busy . Watch out jump canceled Bowser bombs because he will try to fair you and his down b has armor. When recovering from below you need to sweetspot since his down b has armor and you can't up b through. If you can try to wall jump ledge dash or air dodge on stage to avoid his bair or get up attack.
*AssTAStic's Thoughts* Sweetspotting the edge might be hard. Bowser's Bair is great for gimping mario. It lips the edge so sweetspotting can be a problem. Be mindful of this, try mixing up how you recover. Maybe sometimes aiming for bowser and not the edge.
*Notes from Nameless* Bowser has his ledge atk, fire breath to stop sweet spots, SA, decent/safe OoS, that down b cancel er w/e. A good bowser isn't gonna be getting caped for days.
Moves we can crouch cancel: We can CC his jab and get a grab, or his f-tilt to get a d-smash.
What NOT to do: Do not rush Bowser or challenge his range. His Up B out of his shield is fantastic as well as his armor which he can use to grab you if you try to dair at low%. He has great range so he will swat you away or put you in a terrible situation if you are on a platform. Ban small stages. Medium and Big are good for this MU.
55:45 Mario or even depending on stages
Neutral Game: Bowser out-ranges us so what he is going to be doing usually is spacing his aerials against us, so dash dancing outside his range is the key to our success. Bait out one of Bowser's laggy moves. Also use fireballs a good distance because he can fair right through and punish you. You can camp him out on bigger stages but on small stages you need to be cautious. If he corners you, you can camp on the ledge if you have the lead until he does something stupid then ledge dash and punish.
Punish Game: Grab punishes are important, you can chain grab, get a free 50+%, and start a long string. Watch out for his nair which is a great combo breaker, bait it out if you can and get another grab. You want to kill him with Fsmash or Fair or Down throuw > Fair which you can combo into easily with down throw or up air.
Edgeguarding: Edgeguarding Bowser is a piece of cake. He can only recover high or sweet spot. While his Up B does have a good hitbox you can use the cape to refresh your invincibility and bair him to oblivion. If he recovers high then ledge jump cape and he should be gone. Take advantage off this to get early kills.
How to recover against them: A good Bowser is not easy to recover against. When recovering above you want to throw fireballs to keep him busy . Watch out jump canceled Bowser bombs because he will try to fair you and his down b has armor. When recovering from below you need to sweetspot since his down b has armor and you can't up b through. If you can try to wall jump ledge dash or air dodge on stage to avoid his bair or get up attack.
*AssTAStic's Thoughts* Sweetspotting the edge might be hard. Bowser's Bair is great for gimping mario. It lips the edge so sweetspotting can be a problem. Be mindful of this, try mixing up how you recover. Maybe sometimes aiming for bowser and not the edge.
*Notes from Nameless* Bowser has his ledge atk, fire breath to stop sweet spots, SA, decent/safe OoS, that down b cancel er w/e. A good bowser isn't gonna be getting caped for days.
Moves we can crouch cancel: We can CC his jab and get a grab, or his f-tilt to get a d-smash.
What NOT to do: Do not rush Bowser or challenge his range. His Up B out of his shield is fantastic as well as his armor which he can use to grab you if you try to dair at low%. He has great range so he will swat you away or put you in a terrible situation if you are on a platform. Ban small stages. Medium and Big are good for this MU.
60:40 Falcons favor (maybe be 65:35)
This is could be one of two things. A fun MU filled with solid juggles and combo's. Or two a quick and pain full MU. Falcon Has the Bait and punish tools to really destroy mario. Mario is gets hurt really hard by Knee, being that his recovery is not the best. C. falcon has a lot of silly conversion on mario, it feels like everything leads into Knee sometimes. Even then its not an impossible MU.
Neutral: C. Falcon loves to N-Air. He can weave pills on speed alone and his double hit Nair can make them seem not effective. This is wear smart pilling comes in, instead of aggressive pilling. Try to stifle C. Falcon Approach options with pills. C. Falcon will mainly be trying to Dash dance and Bait you, so try not to approach mindlessly. Cover yourself with pill. C.Falcon N-air can actually be beat out by mario. Mario's up air can Knock Falcon out of his N-air. Though it is more of a timing thing than a priority one. You want to aim for that moment after C.falcon first kick but before the Second kick of Nair. Up tilt also is great for stuffing out aerials. This works especially well for C.Falcon's Nair.
Try not to be caught in shield or rolling. Captain Falcon's speed allows him to take full advantage of rolls with hard stomp punishes and other tech chasing options. That is his strong suit. Don't do it. C.falcon's Knee and Stomp(F-air,D-Air) are safe on shield. C.Falcon's Nair,F-air, And D-air can be covered by a L-canel > Jab. IF he cover's N-Air with JAb, sheild grab his jab. Beware of Falcon's grab both down throw and up throw can lead to knee or death. Also you can crouch cancel falcon's Nair for a grab.....just saying.
Punish: C.falcon is a fast faller so Up air chain grabs are best. At around mid-high Percent the converge nicely into up air strings and even F-air. This is why this MU is managable. C.falcon can combo the mess out of m ario, but mario can punish falcon really hard and easily.
Edgeguarding: C.falcon has a very linear recovery. His Up b IS predictable and can be beaten by either a cape, ledgehog, or a precise back air. When Falcon is High up he will try to Down B towards the stage before trying to recovery. C.Falcon Gets a second jump out of his down b, so wait for this accordingly and punish. Try not to challenge Falcon's SIde B Recovery it's hit box is miss leading and can lead to certain death off stage. Cape is best for his side b.
Recovery: C.falcon isn't really known for his edgeguarding. Stomp is a popular edeguarding choice. When recovering try to float down low to read and react to the on coming stomp. So. me Falcon Mains may try to D-tilt the edge. A Sweetspotting the edge could solve this problem.
What can we CC: Not Stomp, Not Knee. CC Nair to get a grab.
Stages to pcik: Any really.Smaller stages aid C.falcon killing power though
This is could be one of two things. A fun MU filled with solid juggles and combo's. Or two a quick and pain full MU. Falcon Has the Bait and punish tools to really destroy mario. Mario is gets hurt really hard by Knee, being that his recovery is not the best. C. falcon has a lot of silly conversion on mario, it feels like everything leads into Knee sometimes. Even then its not an impossible MU.
Neutral: C. Falcon loves to N-Air. He can weave pills on speed alone and his double hit Nair can make them seem not effective. This is wear smart pilling comes in, instead of aggressive pilling. Try to stifle C. Falcon Approach options with pills. C. Falcon will mainly be trying to Dash dance and Bait you, so try not to approach mindlessly. Cover yourself with pill. C.Falcon N-air can actually be beat out by mario. Mario's up air can Knock Falcon out of his N-air. Though it is more of a timing thing than a priority one. You want to aim for that moment after C.falcon first kick but before the Second kick of Nair. Up tilt also is great for stuffing out aerials. This works especially well for C.Falcon's Nair.
Try not to be caught in shield or rolling. Captain Falcon's speed allows him to take full advantage of rolls with hard stomp punishes and other tech chasing options. That is his strong suit. Don't do it. C.falcon's Knee and Stomp(F-air,D-Air) are safe on shield. C.Falcon's Nair,F-air, And D-air can be covered by a L-canel > Jab. IF he cover's N-Air with JAb, sheild grab his jab. Beware of Falcon's grab both down throw and up throw can lead to knee or death. Also you can crouch cancel falcon's Nair for a grab.....just saying.
Punish: C.falcon is a fast faller so Up air chain grabs are best. At around mid-high Percent the converge nicely into up air strings and even F-air. This is why this MU is managable. C.falcon can combo the mess out of m ario, but mario can punish falcon really hard and easily.
Edgeguarding: C.falcon has a very linear recovery. His Up b IS predictable and can be beaten by either a cape, ledgehog, or a precise back air. When Falcon is High up he will try to Down B towards the stage before trying to recovery. C.Falcon Gets a second jump out of his down b, so wait for this accordingly and punish. Try not to challenge Falcon's SIde B Recovery it's hit box is miss leading and can lead to certain death off stage. Cape is best for his side b.
Recovery: C.falcon isn't really known for his edgeguarding. Stomp is a popular edeguarding choice. When recovering try to float down low to read and react to the on coming stomp. So. me Falcon Mains may try to D-tilt the edge. A Sweetspotting the edge could solve this problem.
What can we CC: Not Stomp, Not Knee. CC Nair to get a grab.
Stages to pcik: Any really.Smaller stages aid C.falcon killing power though
60:40 Mario
DDD has a pretty difficult time with mario, but you wouldnt notice it if you don't know the MU. DDD weight/fallspeed allows him to get pieced up nicely by mario. The Punish game isnt the hardest part of this MU. Its the getting in and staying in.
Neutral: Mario wins the neutral. He faster, he's smaller he has alot mroe to work with. Where is DDD has be really strategic about how he goes about the MU. The first rule of thumb should be to stay in the middle of the stage at all times. If you lose stage control you might just lose your stock. DDD is does really well with stage control. Thats like 90% of his game IMO. STAY AWAY FROM THE EDGE. DDD thing is gimping, moves like DDD fair covers alot of space as well as his ftilt and other spacing tools; so yea don't do it bruh. also his back air is pretty dangerous. DDD also gets good tech chases off of grab so be wary of that as well. DO NOT LET THE WADDLE DEES WALK AROUND. thats essentially how DDD moves around, its burst movement that could convert into a grab. Just kill them when you can. Don't let them surround you neither. F tilt or Dsmash are strong and quick enough to get the job done. ALSO pill clanks with F-tilt so yea.... and any other normals for that matter.(that doesnt mean aerials)
Punish Game: Punish hard, chain grab, d-throw combos w.e have you. D-throw fair kills pretty reliably. Honestly mario can 0 to death if you're good enough. TBH their isnt much to this for DDD. Up tilts are super deadly on him and if You grab him you should be taking 40-50%. DOwn throw fair kills stupid early, 80 i believe(could be wrong but still early AF)
Edgeguarding: More often than not you might just outright kill DDD before you edgeguard him. DDD an waddle dash in the air. He typically uses that to get closer to the stage. Becareful of trying to edgeguard during that moment. A Good DDD main might only show you short air waddle dashes, then use a super long and quick one when you get closer. Be aware. As for DDD's up be Capping will be your friend for this. DDD has to go into special fall if he wants to grab ledge with his Up B. REMEMBER THAT. If DDD is below the stage trying to recover, that severally limits his options. FOr the most part he's going to have to opt to go on stage. From there you can follow up F-air or w.e. Remember upon landing to hitboxes come out the sides off DDD.
How to recovery: lmao give up. DDD is extremely strong at gimping. Every time you recover sucessfully consider it a blessing. Our recovery is rather linear and easy for DDD players to read and edgeguard. DDD's F-Air covers a ridiculous amount of spaces. Also his B-air feels like it was made to gimp ._. Use fireballs as much as you can when recovering from high, to disrupt DDD. From below if DDD trys to come out and gimp to early. You could beat him out with the begining of your Up B, since its invincible. Also save your jumps it could be critical to you recovering
What can we crouch cancel: idrk tbh. CC wont be happening as much in this MU. Also even if you did CC(lets say his Nair) you might get grabbed because of it.
What stages to pick: Not battlefield(this is DDD's play gorund), General rule of thumb the less pllatforms the better. Also the smaller the better. NOT DREAMLAND. PS2, Ghz(?),Smashville. Yoshi story is good because its small, but the platform style does aid him more than you.
Info From a DDD main(Kinje thanks man):
Yeah, it's pretty well established that this match up is good for Mario. Dedede doesn't really have any non-read-based combos against a Mario with solid DI, while Mario's dash attack, nair, jab, down throw and up throw pretty much set up into a guaranteed follow up on Dedede until about 90%, and oftentimes higher if the D3 player in question doesn't have really good DI. Mario has a far better projectile, and as such doesn't have to approach Dedede unsafely, thus making Dedede's stronger zoning tools (big disjoints, crazy shield grab, aimable projectile) not all that useful in the matchup. His dash speed and wavedash are better, and he's overall a faster and less laggy character, with the exception of fall speed. His side b and and down bs' stall properties also give him good mix ups on DDD's shield which, combined with the king's already lackluster OOS options, make it really rough to get out of shield pressure and back into neutral once Mario spaces a fireball that dedede can't power-shield on reaction.
Additionally, cape+dedede's unsweetspottable recovery=easy gimps.
The one area dedede beats Mario is, as per the usual, offstage. However, Mario has a pretty unique and amazing recovery, that can be mixed up a lot if you have good DI and save your double jump. If you recover high, you can also usually throw out a fireball then airdodge back to the stage safely.
Honestly, the only reason it even seems close to even as a MU is that very few Mario players have any experience with the matchup.
DDD has a pretty difficult time with mario, but you wouldnt notice it if you don't know the MU. DDD weight/fallspeed allows him to get pieced up nicely by mario. The Punish game isnt the hardest part of this MU. Its the getting in and staying in.
Neutral: Mario wins the neutral. He faster, he's smaller he has alot mroe to work with. Where is DDD has be really strategic about how he goes about the MU. The first rule of thumb should be to stay in the middle of the stage at all times. If you lose stage control you might just lose your stock. DDD is does really well with stage control. Thats like 90% of his game IMO. STAY AWAY FROM THE EDGE. DDD thing is gimping, moves like DDD fair covers alot of space as well as his ftilt and other spacing tools; so yea don't do it bruh. also his back air is pretty dangerous. DDD also gets good tech chases off of grab so be wary of that as well. DO NOT LET THE WADDLE DEES WALK AROUND. thats essentially how DDD moves around, its burst movement that could convert into a grab. Just kill them when you can. Don't let them surround you neither. F tilt or Dsmash are strong and quick enough to get the job done. ALSO pill clanks with F-tilt so yea.... and any other normals for that matter.(that doesnt mean aerials)
Punish Game: Punish hard, chain grab, d-throw combos w.e have you. D-throw fair kills pretty reliably. Honestly mario can 0 to death if you're good enough. TBH their isnt much to this for DDD. Up tilts are super deadly on him and if You grab him you should be taking 40-50%. DOwn throw fair kills stupid early, 80 i believe(could be wrong but still early AF)
Edgeguarding: More often than not you might just outright kill DDD before you edgeguard him. DDD an waddle dash in the air. He typically uses that to get closer to the stage. Becareful of trying to edgeguard during that moment. A Good DDD main might only show you short air waddle dashes, then use a super long and quick one when you get closer. Be aware. As for DDD's up be Capping will be your friend for this. DDD has to go into special fall if he wants to grab ledge with his Up B. REMEMBER THAT. If DDD is below the stage trying to recover, that severally limits his options. FOr the most part he's going to have to opt to go on stage. From there you can follow up F-air or w.e. Remember upon landing to hitboxes come out the sides off DDD.
How to recovery: lmao give up. DDD is extremely strong at gimping. Every time you recover sucessfully consider it a blessing. Our recovery is rather linear and easy for DDD players to read and edgeguard. DDD's F-Air covers a ridiculous amount of spaces. Also his B-air feels like it was made to gimp ._. Use fireballs as much as you can when recovering from high, to disrupt DDD. From below if DDD trys to come out and gimp to early. You could beat him out with the begining of your Up B, since its invincible. Also save your jumps it could be critical to you recovering
What can we crouch cancel: idrk tbh. CC wont be happening as much in this MU. Also even if you did CC(lets say his Nair) you might get grabbed because of it.
What stages to pick: Not battlefield(this is DDD's play gorund), General rule of thumb the less pllatforms the better. Also the smaller the better. NOT DREAMLAND. PS2, Ghz(?),Smashville. Yoshi story is good because its small, but the platform style does aid him more than you.
Info From a DDD main(Kinje thanks man):
Yeah, it's pretty well established that this match up is good for Mario. Dedede doesn't really have any non-read-based combos against a Mario with solid DI, while Mario's dash attack, nair, jab, down throw and up throw pretty much set up into a guaranteed follow up on Dedede until about 90%, and oftentimes higher if the D3 player in question doesn't have really good DI. Mario has a far better projectile, and as such doesn't have to approach Dedede unsafely, thus making Dedede's stronger zoning tools (big disjoints, crazy shield grab, aimable projectile) not all that useful in the matchup. His dash speed and wavedash are better, and he's overall a faster and less laggy character, with the exception of fall speed. His side b and and down bs' stall properties also give him good mix ups on DDD's shield which, combined with the king's already lackluster OOS options, make it really rough to get out of shield pressure and back into neutral once Mario spaces a fireball that dedede can't power-shield on reaction.
Additionally, cape+dedede's unsweetspottable recovery=easy gimps.
The one area dedede beats Mario is, as per the usual, offstage. However, Mario has a pretty unique and amazing recovery, that can be mixed up a lot if you have good DI and save your double jump. If you recover high, you can also usually throw out a fireball then airdodge back to the stage safely.
Honestly, the only reason it even seems close to even as a MU is that very few Mario players have any experience with the matchup.
60:40 Falco.
Falco coming into PM did not get alot of love. Im mean yea hes a spacie and destroys a good portion of the cast, but our plummer got a great deal of buff compared to its melee counter parts. Falco may resemble his melee form in alot of ways but not all of his traits carried over.
Neutral: Falco wins this. Or that what i would be saying. Falco is used to locking down your opponents with lasers from a far. they are really spammable and could be difficult to deal with. Mario on the other hand has a pretty good projectile of his own. Since lasers go through fireballs that means they could also disrupt Falco's movement. Always try to pressure Falco with some of your projectiles as well. This is where smart pill use comes into play (Look at Tip # 2). Usually Powershielding is the only real way to deal with falco laser, luckily mario has a cape. In PM Mario's cape stays active for a while. A well timed cape could really disrupt Falco's neutral game. Be weary though of using your cape, Laggy moves on a spacie is never a good idea. That being said, native to the spacie MU, Nair, Bair, jab, D smash are good moves in this MU. Dtilt is also a good move to use on falco at higher percents. It sends him up just enough to get a grab or another solid conversion. Use Up tilt to stiffle out his N-air and other aerials.
The Key here is to avoid getting locked down by falco laser. Always keep a projectile out during neutral. That way even if you dont cape the laser. Falco can't just approach
*Nameless's comment on Jumping over lasers* That's what falco wants you to do.
Jumping over a laser so you can pick an option that is out prioritized by whatever he does, is what he wants
.
Falco>mario on FD
Lasers controll the game and when you get close, lasergrab, nair, dair and shine> all of Mario's options.
Possiably even on a lot of other stages, especially the ones that allow you to maneuver around lasers. ie, platform(s).
Mario does not win on FD.
Punish Game: Your aim in this aspect of the MU should be to get a grab. Spacies or FF in general are Chain grab food. Up throw work very well and links into up smash. IIRC if up throw CG stops working try a D throw CG. it works on fox so it might work on falco at mid-high percents. Check with the Chain grab thread to make sure. D- tilt is a great poke, and a surprise one(meaning falco didnt predict a hit and CC) could pop falco up enough to get a grab.
EdgeGuard: Falco has a poor recovery. His Firebird has poor range imo and is linear. His illusion has great horizontal range and could be mixed up, Though that is also linear. a well place cape will be the bane of falco's existence. Bair and nair also work well.
How to recover Against Falco?: Be ware of D smash. Falco Likes to Lip the edge with his downsmash Hitbox. Beware of Dair which also can lip the edge and spikes really hard. If recovering High send out fireballs to cover your recovery. IF recovering low and Falco is by the edge try hitting him with the UP b as to disrupt his edgeguard.
What can we crouch cancel: NOT SHINE lol beware of that. Jab i guess. Remember spacies have alot less cool down on moves compared to the rest of the cast. CC into Jab and D smash will be most effective on falcos normals. Even helpful on Falco's N-Air and F-air
Stages to pick: GHz, BAttlefield if they are spammy you can camp here, FD(though some disagree), PS2
*Nameless's Thoughts* Falco>mario on FD.
Falco coming into PM did not get alot of love. Im mean yea hes a spacie and destroys a good portion of the cast, but our plummer got a great deal of buff compared to its melee counter parts. Falco may resemble his melee form in alot of ways but not all of his traits carried over.
Neutral: Falco wins this. Or that what i would be saying. Falco is used to locking down your opponents with lasers from a far. they are really spammable and could be difficult to deal with. Mario on the other hand has a pretty good projectile of his own. Since lasers go through fireballs that means they could also disrupt Falco's movement. Always try to pressure Falco with some of your projectiles as well. This is where smart pill use comes into play (Look at Tip # 2). Usually Powershielding is the only real way to deal with falco laser, luckily mario has a cape. In PM Mario's cape stays active for a while. A well timed cape could really disrupt Falco's neutral game. Be weary though of using your cape, Laggy moves on a spacie is never a good idea. That being said, native to the spacie MU, Nair, Bair, jab, D smash are good moves in this MU. Dtilt is also a good move to use on falco at higher percents. It sends him up just enough to get a grab or another solid conversion. Use Up tilt to stiffle out his N-air and other aerials.
The Key here is to avoid getting locked down by falco laser. Always keep a projectile out during neutral. That way even if you dont cape the laser. Falco can't just approach
*Nameless's comment on Jumping over lasers* That's what falco wants you to do.
Jumping over a laser so you can pick an option that is out prioritized by whatever he does, is what he wants
.
Falco>mario on FD
Lasers controll the game and when you get close, lasergrab, nair, dair and shine> all of Mario's options.
Possiably even on a lot of other stages, especially the ones that allow you to maneuver around lasers. ie, platform(s).
Mario does not win on FD.
Punish Game: Your aim in this aspect of the MU should be to get a grab. Spacies or FF in general are Chain grab food. Up throw work very well and links into up smash. IIRC if up throw CG stops working try a D throw CG. it works on fox so it might work on falco at mid-high percents. Check with the Chain grab thread to make sure. D- tilt is a great poke, and a surprise one(meaning falco didnt predict a hit and CC) could pop falco up enough to get a grab.
EdgeGuard: Falco has a poor recovery. His Firebird has poor range imo and is linear. His illusion has great horizontal range and could be mixed up, Though that is also linear. a well place cape will be the bane of falco's existence. Bair and nair also work well.
How to recover Against Falco?: Be ware of D smash. Falco Likes to Lip the edge with his downsmash Hitbox. Beware of Dair which also can lip the edge and spikes really hard. If recovering High send out fireballs to cover your recovery. IF recovering low and Falco is by the edge try hitting him with the UP b as to disrupt his edgeguard.
What can we crouch cancel: NOT SHINE lol beware of that. Jab i guess. Remember spacies have alot less cool down on moves compared to the rest of the cast. CC into Jab and D smash will be most effective on falcos normals. Even helpful on Falco's N-Air and F-air
Stages to pick: GHz, BAttlefield if they are spammy you can camp here, FD(though some disagree), PS2
*Nameless's Thoughts* Falco>mario on FD.
65:35Fox (maybe 60:40)
Fox has pretty much every tool in the game at his disposal. His speed, lasers and shine make this a really frustrating matchup but not impossible. In fact alot of foxes don't like the mario MU. its because we also have alot of tools. If used properly it can be a frustrating match up for the furry *******.
Neutral game: Flat out Fox wins the neutral game. His speed and laser allows him to run away and approach as he sees fit, essentially controlling the neutral game. Be aggressive or trying to rush fox down WILL NOT HELP. Rush down tatics is what fox excels at. He can crouch cancel pretty much everything we do at low precent, except MAYBE d smash. it also doesnt help that once fox does get in he has so many aggressive options it can be easily overwhelming(Nair, shine, up smash, dair > Shine). Though fox generally wins neutral, fireball/pills is a great projectile. With proper pill or fireballs you can disrupt his neutral and go in for the punish. the pills go through his laser and have a good amount of hit stun. i recommend full hop fireballs because i find most people don't deal with that option very well. Well placed Up tilt can stuff out his Nair options. In this MU you should always be dash dancing. If they over commit punish with a pivot grab or a DD grab.
Punish game: The great thing about this match up is how hard mario can punish fox. The main problem is winning neutral. once you get a grab on fox you can u throw chain grab him to about 50 percent. in between there you can chain some nice up smashs into re grabs(even once caught a double up smash then a re grab). Whats actually crazy about this match up is that once fox hits around 50%-60% you can d throw chain grab him. this can even result in 0 to death if you read them well enough. It should be noted though that this option requires great technical skill. their are other easier options. If Up throw no longer chain grabs, you still have solid conversion from it. Up tilt, up air, hell even up smash. Mario's up-B Oos literally prevents fox from gaining any shield pressure on mario. Up smash could be used for well placed reads(like mango level). Don't get to trigger happy with this options. laggy move in the spacie MU is never a good idea. Up tilting Fox's aerials is always a good option.
Edgeguarding: This is a important part of the match up. The last thing one needs is a spacie that won't die. Fox has a great recovery. though it may be linear it can be mixed up well by smart players. that being said cape and bair are your friend. They help put down the furry animal.
What can you crouch cancel: lol dont do that. Fox shine can lead to death no matter what percent.(i.e getting wave shined to the edge into shine spike, waveshine up smash). Mario can CC fox's normals but since fox can also CC really hard be careful at low percents. Look out for jab or d tilt because those set up into Up smash. Mario in this MU is looking to CC into jab. Jabs are powerful on mario because they can link into other moves like grab and D smash. A well place CC Jab > Grab could cost fox the stock. Also CC N-air and F-air. Though the opponent may be moving to fast to get a solid punish.
What stages to play: GHz, FD, Smashville, PS2, anything flat really. That way fox has less places to run cutting his movement, while at the same time making it harder to leave chain grabs. Just remember Fox does pretty well on these stages to (except FD).
Last thoughts: it is definitely as challenging match up, though its one you get better at with experience. Basically the MU is determined by how many times you win neutral and how hard you punish. Not impossible. Use moves that are not laggy, Nair, Jab, Bair, JC grab D-smash are your friends.
Fox has pretty much every tool in the game at his disposal. His speed, lasers and shine make this a really frustrating matchup but not impossible. In fact alot of foxes don't like the mario MU. its because we also have alot of tools. If used properly it can be a frustrating match up for the furry *******.
Neutral game: Flat out Fox wins the neutral game. His speed and laser allows him to run away and approach as he sees fit, essentially controlling the neutral game. Be aggressive or trying to rush fox down WILL NOT HELP. Rush down tatics is what fox excels at. He can crouch cancel pretty much everything we do at low precent, except MAYBE d smash. it also doesnt help that once fox does get in he has so many aggressive options it can be easily overwhelming(Nair, shine, up smash, dair > Shine). Though fox generally wins neutral, fireball/pills is a great projectile. With proper pill or fireballs you can disrupt his neutral and go in for the punish. the pills go through his laser and have a good amount of hit stun. i recommend full hop fireballs because i find most people don't deal with that option very well. Well placed Up tilt can stuff out his Nair options. In this MU you should always be dash dancing. If they over commit punish with a pivot grab or a DD grab.
Punish game: The great thing about this match up is how hard mario can punish fox. The main problem is winning neutral. once you get a grab on fox you can u throw chain grab him to about 50 percent. in between there you can chain some nice up smashs into re grabs(even once caught a double up smash then a re grab). Whats actually crazy about this match up is that once fox hits around 50%-60% you can d throw chain grab him. this can even result in 0 to death if you read them well enough. It should be noted though that this option requires great technical skill. their are other easier options. If Up throw no longer chain grabs, you still have solid conversion from it. Up tilt, up air, hell even up smash. Mario's up-B Oos literally prevents fox from gaining any shield pressure on mario. Up smash could be used for well placed reads(like mango level). Don't get to trigger happy with this options. laggy move in the spacie MU is never a good idea. Up tilting Fox's aerials is always a good option.
Edgeguarding: This is a important part of the match up. The last thing one needs is a spacie that won't die. Fox has a great recovery. though it may be linear it can be mixed up well by smart players. that being said cape and bair are your friend. They help put down the furry animal.
What can you crouch cancel: lol dont do that. Fox shine can lead to death no matter what percent.(i.e getting wave shined to the edge into shine spike, waveshine up smash). Mario can CC fox's normals but since fox can also CC really hard be careful at low percents. Look out for jab or d tilt because those set up into Up smash. Mario in this MU is looking to CC into jab. Jabs are powerful on mario because they can link into other moves like grab and D smash. A well place CC Jab > Grab could cost fox the stock. Also CC N-air and F-air. Though the opponent may be moving to fast to get a solid punish.
What stages to play: GHz, FD, Smashville, PS2, anything flat really. That way fox has less places to run cutting his movement, while at the same time making it harder to leave chain grabs. Just remember Fox does pretty well on these stages to (except FD).
Last thoughts: it is definitely as challenging match up, though its one you get better at with experience. Basically the MU is determined by how many times you win neutral and how hard you punish. Not impossible. Use moves that are not laggy, Nair, Jab, Bair, JC grab D-smash are your friends.
50:50 even( 55:45 Mario depending on certain variables)
This is a very honest MU. Depending on things like experience, stage, MU knowledge, skill level it could get easier. The main thing with this MU is winning the neutral(i feel like i say this alot but im dead serious with this one) which could be a real struggle. For every tool you have link has a projectile. His swords also makes things difficult, Mario has a problem with disjoints. Just keep it cool, be patient, and know when to be aggressive.
Neutral game: Now this is where you will be spending a good portion of this MU. Link main's like to play the neutral game and keep you out. They are used to controlling this aspect of the game. Link's Bow, Boomerang and bombs can prove to be a deadly combo. These tools can effectively keep our plumber out. You have to respect Link's range. He has a pretty nice jab, and his tilts are legit(also his grab is pretty scary, once you are in jab range). Link also has a good Z-Air, which is great for keeping mario out and deflecting pills. You have to play it smart. Use your pills to get in at first, allow them to clank with his projectiles to cancel the hitbox. When the Clank use that as a moment to get in. Remember though Link has a GREAT N-Air (OMFG ITS SO GOOD), which can deal with predictable pill patterns/habits. If you catch Link trying to use a tilt, clanking them with pills is not a bad way to get in either(especially his F and U tilt). Link's shield(the one he carries) is always active, meaning it could block for him w/o pressing L/R. try aiming pills so the it hits Link right under his shield,(or his head if link is crouched). Also with link you want to Nair his Boomerang. The moment you notice he pulls it out, SH Nair approach.If you catch it at the right momement, Link may still be in his boomerang animation when you land for the L cancel. Not only does N-air cancel out the boomerangs hitbox, it allows you to get in and maybe get a hit. This is really important in this MU. You could start tearing down your opponents neutral. This can become a serious punish option on boomerang as well as bow(BUT NOT BOMB, IT EXPLODES ON HIT). Bomb is the only projectile of Links you have to respect. You cannot beat out bomb with nair, or cape like other projectile because it explodes on hit. I believe if pills attempt to clank with bomb it just bounces off. If the link begins to become bomb heavy and campy. Punish there option after bomb. Its usually a projectile like boomerang. Obviously you should cape links boomerang and bow when you can. A caped boomerang can catch you're opponent off guard. BEWARE of LINK GRAB at high percent, it can lead into death.
Punish game: This is the big part of this MU. Though link slightly wins neutral(meaning you have to work more than he does to get in) your punishes are so great on him. First of he is really comboable. HIs weight and fallspeed combination is pretty silly actually. CG are very viable on link and Mario has solid conversions off of them. The sudden down tilt will pop him up just enough for a JC grab or a up Air or w.e else you like. Personally once link is around like 30 or so, even if i can go for another grab, i mix in other options. Typically it will be a jab to stun him, get the grab then reset the situation. Or get the d air multihit cross up > jab > grab. If you want to kill link a down throw > F-air kills around 75-90. Honestly down throw to F-air is your most solid kill option on him. Remember it well. Once the neutral is won stick to him like glue, hes going to want to run, don't let them. Now is when you should be aggressive.
Edge guarding: Link is kind of annoying to edgeguard. Bomb hops and his disjointed up B makes it troublesome. The trick is to be patient and read his recovery. It is still quite linear. Capes work best. Though B-airs are also a good option. Sometimes caping may prove difficult. A precise B-Air can end it all. If he is recovering from low, grab ledge and while you are still invincible drop down for the back air. Just be careful to not FF down and kill yourself lolz. Grabing ledge actually covers alot of Links recovery options. If he tries to recover to high while on ledge jump up promptly and Fair or back air. IIf he tethers while you are holding the edge link cannot grab it. He will be forced into a jump animation to land on stage. The animation upon landing forces link into 40 frame cool down. you can jump up and F-air him before he lands.
How to recover against the character: Link Boomerang and bow could prove troublesome while edgeguarding. THough recovering shouldnt be that hard. Some links will d tilt towards the edge, the D tilt hitbox spikes downwards. IF you catch him trying to do that, aim The Up B for Link and not the ledge. Also be mindful of how link swings. Some link's my also spam Up B by the ledge. try clanking the move with pills before landing. Some links will opt for the Up B at the edge. If you see this happening clank the move with pill. If you are hanging on to the ledge and your opponent is doing this, a nice b reverse pill would deal with the problem effectively(be mindful though).
What can we Crouch Cancel: Pretty much everything, just be careful he might get a grab > up B for a kill. When you CC try to get a jab or a down smash when you can.
Stages to pick: w.e you feel comfortable on really. I reccommend FD, GHz(if you can handle it), Ps2, NOT battlefield remember link has disjoints. ALso NOT DL. you don't want to give link a better chance to live.
This is a very honest MU. Depending on things like experience, stage, MU knowledge, skill level it could get easier. The main thing with this MU is winning the neutral(i feel like i say this alot but im dead serious with this one) which could be a real struggle. For every tool you have link has a projectile. His swords also makes things difficult, Mario has a problem with disjoints. Just keep it cool, be patient, and know when to be aggressive.
Neutral game: Now this is where you will be spending a good portion of this MU. Link main's like to play the neutral game and keep you out. They are used to controlling this aspect of the game. Link's Bow, Boomerang and bombs can prove to be a deadly combo. These tools can effectively keep our plumber out. You have to respect Link's range. He has a pretty nice jab, and his tilts are legit(also his grab is pretty scary, once you are in jab range). Link also has a good Z-Air, which is great for keeping mario out and deflecting pills. You have to play it smart. Use your pills to get in at first, allow them to clank with his projectiles to cancel the hitbox. When the Clank use that as a moment to get in. Remember though Link has a GREAT N-Air (OMFG ITS SO GOOD), which can deal with predictable pill patterns/habits. If you catch Link trying to use a tilt, clanking them with pills is not a bad way to get in either(especially his F and U tilt). Link's shield(the one he carries) is always active, meaning it could block for him w/o pressing L/R. try aiming pills so the it hits Link right under his shield,(or his head if link is crouched). Also with link you want to Nair his Boomerang. The moment you notice he pulls it out, SH Nair approach.If you catch it at the right momement, Link may still be in his boomerang animation when you land for the L cancel. Not only does N-air cancel out the boomerangs hitbox, it allows you to get in and maybe get a hit. This is really important in this MU. You could start tearing down your opponents neutral. This can become a serious punish option on boomerang as well as bow(BUT NOT BOMB, IT EXPLODES ON HIT). Bomb is the only projectile of Links you have to respect. You cannot beat out bomb with nair, or cape like other projectile because it explodes on hit. I believe if pills attempt to clank with bomb it just bounces off. If the link begins to become bomb heavy and campy. Punish there option after bomb. Its usually a projectile like boomerang. Obviously you should cape links boomerang and bow when you can. A caped boomerang can catch you're opponent off guard. BEWARE of LINK GRAB at high percent, it can lead into death.
Punish game: This is the big part of this MU. Though link slightly wins neutral(meaning you have to work more than he does to get in) your punishes are so great on him. First of he is really comboable. HIs weight and fallspeed combination is pretty silly actually. CG are very viable on link and Mario has solid conversions off of them. The sudden down tilt will pop him up just enough for a JC grab or a up Air or w.e else you like. Personally once link is around like 30 or so, even if i can go for another grab, i mix in other options. Typically it will be a jab to stun him, get the grab then reset the situation. Or get the d air multihit cross up > jab > grab. If you want to kill link a down throw > F-air kills around 75-90. Honestly down throw to F-air is your most solid kill option on him. Remember it well. Once the neutral is won stick to him like glue, hes going to want to run, don't let them. Now is when you should be aggressive.
Edge guarding: Link is kind of annoying to edgeguard. Bomb hops and his disjointed up B makes it troublesome. The trick is to be patient and read his recovery. It is still quite linear. Capes work best. Though B-airs are also a good option. Sometimes caping may prove difficult. A precise B-Air can end it all. If he is recovering from low, grab ledge and while you are still invincible drop down for the back air. Just be careful to not FF down and kill yourself lolz. Grabing ledge actually covers alot of Links recovery options. If he tries to recover to high while on ledge jump up promptly and Fair or back air. IIf he tethers while you are holding the edge link cannot grab it. He will be forced into a jump animation to land on stage. The animation upon landing forces link into 40 frame cool down. you can jump up and F-air him before he lands.
How to recover against the character: Link Boomerang and bow could prove troublesome while edgeguarding. THough recovering shouldnt be that hard. Some links will d tilt towards the edge, the D tilt hitbox spikes downwards. IF you catch him trying to do that, aim The Up B for Link and not the ledge. Also be mindful of how link swings. Some link's my also spam Up B by the ledge. try clanking the move with pills before landing. Some links will opt for the Up B at the edge. If you see this happening clank the move with pill. If you are hanging on to the ledge and your opponent is doing this, a nice b reverse pill would deal with the problem effectively(be mindful though).
What can we Crouch Cancel: Pretty much everything, just be careful he might get a grab > up B for a kill. When you CC try to get a jab or a down smash when you can.
Stages to pick: w.e you feel comfortable on really. I reccommend FD, GHz(if you can handle it), Ps2, NOT battlefield remember link has disjoints. ALso NOT DL. you don't want to give link a better chance to live.
*CREDIT TO Mr.Random FOR THE WRITE UP* This write out is from 3.02 but still stands
edit:12/5/2015 60:40 Marth (could be worse depending on your lvl of experience)
I feel this MU is the lowest, in terms of numbers for our hero. His hits my seem simple, but they get a lot of mileage and getting in as Mario, multiple times, is very hard.
Stages: Not GHz, Not Wario Ware, Not Battlefield. Marths sword can go through most platforms in the game setting up nicely for some nasty combos. Also GHz is small af, so it kinda just puts you in a bad situation. Stages like FD(maybe), PS2, Dreamland, etc, would be better suited for mario, giving him space to breath.
Neutral Game: Marth Deals with fireballs pretty solidly. Marth sword also out ranges pretty much anything mario can do. As mario you are going to play really smart and pick how you approach. Imo Spamming fire balls can become a crouch. Since marth can fair through them like butter, it forces you to retreat while marth safely approaches. Reccommend alot of dash dancing as well as Shield grabbing when the marth commits too hard. Wavedash Oos could also be really helpful.
AssTAStic's Thought. In Neutral Marth's normals can be clanked with pills. This goes for jab, f tilt, F smash etc. Use your pills to clank with these moves. Though marth deals with pills pretty easily that does not mean you should not use them. In fact its more a reason to pill efficiently.(look at tip #2). Make sure you always keep up the pressure on marth.
ALso B-Air Wavelands are pretty useful in this MU. It gives mobility to Mario's best range move in this MU.
Punish Game: As I said, you will be playing around a lot of WD OoS. From there, grabs, jabs, and dsmash will do work. Bair and nair OoS can be good as well, bair being a little better because of the range. DD to make him whiff will also be very important.
*AssTAStic's Thoughts* Also at low percent we have decent options out of down throw(another grab, up airs, nair), and i believe at high percent down throw can lead to fair for the kill. When you are close to MArth you should jab. Mario's Jab is faster than Most of marths options and sets up for so much. D- tilt is also another good poke tool that pops marth up. ALso CC is very important in this MU. CC Marh's Fair to get a free Down smash or jab. Don't CC D-tilt.
*Gez's Thoughts*
The Marth MU gets more difficult the more the Marth understands about the MU and the less you understand. Marth walls us out. That's big, and is the main problem in this MU, but depending on the moves he uses, he can sacrifice spacing without knowing it. If he Fsmashes outside of combo, you should shield that **** > WD OoS (forward) > grab, every ****ing time. No exceptions. If he Ftilts outside of combo, you should shield >WD OoS (forward) > wait in shield/ try to cross up with Dair. His moves have more lag on them than he thinks. Also, our Bair trades with his recovery super favorable, and snipes him out of the Side B part of it mad easily. Also we combo him well enough to do work, so I don't think getting in more than once a stock is necessary if you can convert well and get one or two reads on their techs
Edgeguarding: This can hard, even with his limited options. You can try fireballing him so that he could mess up his sweet spot. You could try tossing a fireball on a platform like if you full hop on bf, and fireball with your hand just barely above a platform. That can stop some high recoveries. You can try just RAR bairing him, even if it trades with his up B, Mario always gives Marth that GameStop trade. Marth's only stall option is dancing blade, so if he uses it, try your best to do something about it. If you can predict it off stage, a B-air can end him. If you can hit'em, just make him land on the stage with his laggy up B and smash'em for his troubles. Also Cape it can lip the edge if preformed right.
AssTAStics input* Grabbing ledge works best against marth. It forces him to recover on stage. If marth lands on stage after an Up B, You can fair him from the ledge. If the marth isnt good at sweetspoting, then Cape works very well.
How to recover against them: This can be tricky because, a good bair from Marth, after you used both down b and side b is death. If your coming from above, try to fireball, maybe dair, air dodge, get to a platform. I said dair, but you usually don't do crap when trying to come down on Marth. You just wanna hurry up and get on the main platform. Try not to use down b close to the stage. One thing Marth can do, is drop weave a bit, tipper bair and then he can still recover. So even low recoveries can be stuffed, if you aren't careful. When you up B wall jump, try bairing after the walk jump, it'll cover you in case Marth wants to act silly.
*AssTAStic's Thoughts* Marth has the easiest edge guards in the whole damn game. he has so many tools that just edgeguards the PM Cast pretty hard. D tilt, F tilt, f smash are all incredibly free. If you find yourself playing a marth with a lame edgeguard style, Aim your up b towards marth and not the edge. Since Up b has invincible frames(as well as decent priority towards the top of the move) it will hit him allowing you to recover.
Moves we can crouch cancel: Anything not tipped.
*AssTAStic's thought Crouch cancel Marths F-air. You can get a jab, grab or down smash out of it.
What NOT to do: go to yoshi's island, go to WW, go to GHz.
Don't play passive, always attempt to pressure Marth. Even though you can't get in, that doesn't mean u can't do squat. Never sit still, always mix it up, don't b throw and except it to kill anytime before like 140. Domt up throw. Don't drop combos. Don't take any risks, don't get frustrated, this MU for Mario is a battle of wits. You're just fishing the whole game, praying, baiting and punishing, sprinkle in some aggression and that's the MU on Mario's said.
AssTAStics's thoughts * Marth has a silly af chain grab(that in a way can become a DI mixup). Its quick piles damage and can force someone to the edge for a tippered F smash. I believe You throw DI down and away to get out of these. IMPORTANT AF.
edit:12/5/2015 60:40 Marth (could be worse depending on your lvl of experience)
I feel this MU is the lowest, in terms of numbers for our hero. His hits my seem simple, but they get a lot of mileage and getting in as Mario, multiple times, is very hard.
Stages: Not GHz, Not Wario Ware, Not Battlefield. Marths sword can go through most platforms in the game setting up nicely for some nasty combos. Also GHz is small af, so it kinda just puts you in a bad situation. Stages like FD(maybe), PS2, Dreamland, etc, would be better suited for mario, giving him space to breath.
Neutral Game: Marth Deals with fireballs pretty solidly. Marth sword also out ranges pretty much anything mario can do. As mario you are going to play really smart and pick how you approach. Imo Spamming fire balls can become a crouch. Since marth can fair through them like butter, it forces you to retreat while marth safely approaches. Reccommend alot of dash dancing as well as Shield grabbing when the marth commits too hard. Wavedash Oos could also be really helpful.
AssTAStic's Thought. In Neutral Marth's normals can be clanked with pills. This goes for jab, f tilt, F smash etc. Use your pills to clank with these moves. Though marth deals with pills pretty easily that does not mean you should not use them. In fact its more a reason to pill efficiently.(look at tip #2). Make sure you always keep up the pressure on marth.
ALso B-Air Wavelands are pretty useful in this MU. It gives mobility to Mario's best range move in this MU.
Punish Game: As I said, you will be playing around a lot of WD OoS. From there, grabs, jabs, and dsmash will do work. Bair and nair OoS can be good as well, bair being a little better because of the range. DD to make him whiff will also be very important.
*AssTAStic's Thoughts* Also at low percent we have decent options out of down throw(another grab, up airs, nair), and i believe at high percent down throw can lead to fair for the kill. When you are close to MArth you should jab. Mario's Jab is faster than Most of marths options and sets up for so much. D- tilt is also another good poke tool that pops marth up. ALso CC is very important in this MU. CC Marh's Fair to get a free Down smash or jab. Don't CC D-tilt.
*Gez's Thoughts*
The Marth MU gets more difficult the more the Marth understands about the MU and the less you understand. Marth walls us out. That's big, and is the main problem in this MU, but depending on the moves he uses, he can sacrifice spacing without knowing it. If he Fsmashes outside of combo, you should shield that **** > WD OoS (forward) > grab, every ****ing time. No exceptions. If he Ftilts outside of combo, you should shield >WD OoS (forward) > wait in shield/ try to cross up with Dair. His moves have more lag on them than he thinks. Also, our Bair trades with his recovery super favorable, and snipes him out of the Side B part of it mad easily. Also we combo him well enough to do work, so I don't think getting in more than once a stock is necessary if you can convert well and get one or two reads on their techs
Edgeguarding: This can hard, even with his limited options. You can try fireballing him so that he could mess up his sweet spot. You could try tossing a fireball on a platform like if you full hop on bf, and fireball with your hand just barely above a platform. That can stop some high recoveries. You can try just RAR bairing him, even if it trades with his up B, Mario always gives Marth that GameStop trade. Marth's only stall option is dancing blade, so if he uses it, try your best to do something about it. If you can predict it off stage, a B-air can end him. If you can hit'em, just make him land on the stage with his laggy up B and smash'em for his troubles. Also Cape it can lip the edge if preformed right.
AssTAStics input* Grabbing ledge works best against marth. It forces him to recover on stage. If marth lands on stage after an Up B, You can fair him from the ledge. If the marth isnt good at sweetspoting, then Cape works very well.
How to recover against them: This can be tricky because, a good bair from Marth, after you used both down b and side b is death. If your coming from above, try to fireball, maybe dair, air dodge, get to a platform. I said dair, but you usually don't do crap when trying to come down on Marth. You just wanna hurry up and get on the main platform. Try not to use down b close to the stage. One thing Marth can do, is drop weave a bit, tipper bair and then he can still recover. So even low recoveries can be stuffed, if you aren't careful. When you up B wall jump, try bairing after the walk jump, it'll cover you in case Marth wants to act silly.
*AssTAStic's Thoughts* Marth has the easiest edge guards in the whole damn game. he has so many tools that just edgeguards the PM Cast pretty hard. D tilt, F tilt, f smash are all incredibly free. If you find yourself playing a marth with a lame edgeguard style, Aim your up b towards marth and not the edge. Since Up b has invincible frames(as well as decent priority towards the top of the move) it will hit him allowing you to recover.
Moves we can crouch cancel: Anything not tipped.
*AssTAStic's thought Crouch cancel Marths F-air. You can get a jab, grab or down smash out of it.
What NOT to do: go to yoshi's island, go to WW, go to GHz.
Don't play passive, always attempt to pressure Marth. Even though you can't get in, that doesn't mean u can't do squat. Never sit still, always mix it up, don't b throw and except it to kill anytime before like 140. Domt up throw. Don't drop combos. Don't take any risks, don't get frustrated, this MU for Mario is a battle of wits. You're just fishing the whole game, praying, baiting and punishing, sprinkle in some aggression and that's the MU on Mario's said.
AssTAStics's thoughts * Marth has a silly af chain grab(that in a way can become a DI mixup). Its quick piles damage and can force someone to the edge for a tippered F smash. I believe You throw DI down and away to get out of these. IMPORTANT AF.
50:50 even (could sway depending on variables such as player level, stages)
Now if this were melee, I would be complaining about this MU. I would be talking about how braindead shieks combos are. I would be talking about how dumb her d throw is and how it leads into dumb kill set ups. Good thing its PM though LOL. Sheik has alot of the tool she had in melee as well as some brawl stuff. But mario this time around is so much more of a better character. You have enough to take on sheik without feeling dirty.
Neutral:
Sheik IS going to want to camp alot with needles. Sheik also gets alot of mileage off of throws and is a important part of her gameplan. Sheik can chain grab mario till about mid percents. Even in this game sheik out spaces a good percentage of the cast with her Back air and f tilt. Most sheik's are going to want to needles camp of the bat. If sheik is trying to camp, camp with him. Pitch a tent, Start the fire and start roasting some smurs. Be fully commited to camping against shiek. Though Needles are a good camping tool, But honestly fireballs are alot more annoying than her needles(at least in PM). If shes trying to FH needle, he's trying to come down for a grab. I recommend FH Fireballs in this situation, Use them to make getting to yourself difficult and be put in a disadvataged stage position. Sheik also likes to use F-tilt and D-tilt. His tilts is were sheiks combo game lies. At low percents CC Tilt to get a jab, or d-tilt. These options are some of mario's quickest pokes and can lead into a bunch of other options.
Always keep up the projectile pressure on sheik and play smart. Patients is key in this MU. Sheik will not approach much. Sheiks Dash attack is not safe on shield so always shield grab it. Sheik's Fair is actually safe on shield and could set up a serious frame trap, so be careful. Don't feel fored to approach, sheiks game is camping and being mindlessly aggressive will not help. Keep a cool head.
Sheik also has a serious edgeguard game so stay away from the edge. Staying in the middle of the stage makes the MU more difficult for Sheik. His back throw can be a kill set up with poor DI. Most sheiks will use other thows to through off your DI, then back throw hoping you mess up the DI. Just be Very Concious of his throw animations and this becomes hard. Also i Sheiks has his back tuned towards the edge and has grabed you, it very likely that sheik is going to back throw. Survival DI in that situation(which would be in towards the stage) would have been bad combo DI for the throw, leading into a free Fair and kill. Di out and away to avoid this.
Punish: Chain Grabs are a scary tool we have against sheik.. Once neutral is won mario can really combo sheik well. he is a bit floaty but not enough to get out of combos early. CG works on the character till about mid percents and even after then their are solid conversion of D-throw. Down throw to F-air still kills. AS well as having more reliable pokes in this MU, punishing Sheik hard shouldn't be that difficult.
Edgeguarding: This is not as easy as it looks. Sheiks who can shino stall can be difficult to hit thanks to the invincible frames on the move. Grabing the ledge usually blocks this option and forces them to recover on stage. Just follow up accordingly. A nice fair of the ledge can be a good one, since the Up b will have lag upon landing.
Recovery: Honestly you should be doing everything in your power to stay away from the edge. Though at some point you will be in a recovery situation. Always sweetspot the ledge. Sheik will be trying to gimp you with needles, though they are not nearly as annoying as melee. A well timed Up b can cancel out the needle, due to Up B's invincible frames. SHeik may try come in for the Fair of stage, but thats more of a read on your recovery. SAve your jumps and always mix up your recovery. DO not down b recover near the stage. You will be a sitting duck.
What can we CC. F-tilt, D- tilt, pretty much anything at low percents. Just beware of a grab if they read your CCing. Always Jab after CC. This is an important part of this MU. Always CC.
Stages to pick: not battle field, PS2, maybe Ghz, not dreamland(its harder for you to kill while not really effecting sheik). Not WW or Distant planet(Camp needle setups)
Now if this were melee, I would be complaining about this MU. I would be talking about how braindead shieks combos are. I would be talking about how dumb her d throw is and how it leads into dumb kill set ups. Good thing its PM though LOL. Sheik has alot of the tool she had in melee as well as some brawl stuff. But mario this time around is so much more of a better character. You have enough to take on sheik without feeling dirty.
Neutral:
Sheik IS going to want to camp alot with needles. Sheik also gets alot of mileage off of throws and is a important part of her gameplan. Sheik can chain grab mario till about mid percents. Even in this game sheik out spaces a good percentage of the cast with her Back air and f tilt. Most sheik's are going to want to needles camp of the bat. If sheik is trying to camp, camp with him. Pitch a tent, Start the fire and start roasting some smurs. Be fully commited to camping against shiek. Though Needles are a good camping tool, But honestly fireballs are alot more annoying than her needles(at least in PM). If shes trying to FH needle, he's trying to come down for a grab. I recommend FH Fireballs in this situation, Use them to make getting to yourself difficult and be put in a disadvataged stage position. Sheik also likes to use F-tilt and D-tilt. His tilts is were sheiks combo game lies. At low percents CC Tilt to get a jab, or d-tilt. These options are some of mario's quickest pokes and can lead into a bunch of other options.
Always keep up the projectile pressure on sheik and play smart. Patients is key in this MU. Sheik will not approach much. Sheiks Dash attack is not safe on shield so always shield grab it. Sheik's Fair is actually safe on shield and could set up a serious frame trap, so be careful. Don't feel fored to approach, sheiks game is camping and being mindlessly aggressive will not help. Keep a cool head.
Sheik also has a serious edgeguard game so stay away from the edge. Staying in the middle of the stage makes the MU more difficult for Sheik. His back throw can be a kill set up with poor DI. Most sheiks will use other thows to through off your DI, then back throw hoping you mess up the DI. Just be Very Concious of his throw animations and this becomes hard. Also i Sheiks has his back tuned towards the edge and has grabed you, it very likely that sheik is going to back throw. Survival DI in that situation(which would be in towards the stage) would have been bad combo DI for the throw, leading into a free Fair and kill. Di out and away to avoid this.
Punish: Chain Grabs are a scary tool we have against sheik.. Once neutral is won mario can really combo sheik well. he is a bit floaty but not enough to get out of combos early. CG works on the character till about mid percents and even after then their are solid conversion of D-throw. Down throw to F-air still kills. AS well as having more reliable pokes in this MU, punishing Sheik hard shouldn't be that difficult.
Edgeguarding: This is not as easy as it looks. Sheiks who can shino stall can be difficult to hit thanks to the invincible frames on the move. Grabing the ledge usually blocks this option and forces them to recover on stage. Just follow up accordingly. A nice fair of the ledge can be a good one, since the Up b will have lag upon landing.
Recovery: Honestly you should be doing everything in your power to stay away from the edge. Though at some point you will be in a recovery situation. Always sweetspot the ledge. Sheik will be trying to gimp you with needles, though they are not nearly as annoying as melee. A well timed Up b can cancel out the needle, due to Up B's invincible frames. SHeik may try come in for the Fair of stage, but thats more of a read on your recovery. SAve your jumps and always mix up your recovery. DO not down b recover near the stage. You will be a sitting duck.
What can we CC. F-tilt, D- tilt, pretty much anything at low percents. Just beware of a grab if they read your CCing. Always Jab after CC. This is an important part of this MU. Always CC.
Stages to pick: not battle field, PS2, maybe Ghz, not dreamland(its harder for you to kill while not really effecting sheik). Not WW or Distant planet(Camp needle setups)
60:40 Mario
Now this match up can be a bit difficult depending on your skill level. Sonic is good at neutral because he's so fast, and can mix up his approach very well. He also has alot have some aggressive options that could surprise you if you're not ready for them. That being said this is still a great match up for mario. Mainly because sonic has to do more to approach and get the hit, while Mario has safer options
Neutral game: Sonic thrives of a read and bait type of play style. He can cover alot of distance similar to C.falcon due to his ridiculous speed. He's not going use his speed to overwhelm you. Its more like you made a mistake so get rekt'd. That being said his main approach options, which is side b and down b both, get beat out by projectiles or pills/fireballs. The fact that mario has a strong projectile makes it so you could play his game but better. Sonic does not have a good answer to projectiles, pill/fireballs out prioritize sonic's down b and side b. This makes our projectiles a really nice conditioning tool. Make them approach how you want them to. If they are stubborn you can just pill them to death and frustrate the crap outta them.
PS. Just because you didn't hit Sonic with your pill doesn't mean you didn't punish him. If he retreats to avoid getting hit by pill, he's also giving up stage positioning. THINK ABOUT IT, Use this.
Punish Game: Sonic is at a really nice Fall Speed/Combo ratio. IIRC there is also a chain grab at him(Double check with the chain grab thread). Though in this MU you really will not be getting much grabs. Get them when you can off sheild grabs or when you whiff sonics grab. Even if you Don't chain grab, D throw leads into some nice Uairs for a combo or a Fair for A kill. All of our aerials out prioritize side b and down b approaches, make use of this once sonic commits too much. Nair works amazingly on Homing attack. Also if you catch him chasing you dash dance away > bair is always a good option.
Edgeguards: Sonic does not really have to much options for recovering. Typically they are going to down b(or side b idk) towards the stage then Up B. His Up Be has great Vertical range, recovering from deep. Sonic does have a down B Jump cancel for a good recovery option. it sends him at a diagonal curve towards in which ever direction sonic is facing. Though if you read that you could cape, bair, nair for the kill. You could also cape his up B since it is very predictable; or perhaps go for the edgehog.
How to Recover against sonic?: There really isnt much to doing this. sonic isnt really known for his gimping or edgeguarding ability.
What can we crouch cancel?: Everything really. Just remember CC on Sonic's Down B and SIde B is not really a good idea. He has alot of options out of these options. Most notably a JC grab.
Stages to Pick: GHz, PS2, FD, Dreamland, Smashville.IMO battlefield is not a good pick, a good sonic will have some pretty funky platform movement that can lead into some combos. Ban it and similar stages along with Wario ware.
Last thoughts: This is a good match up that will test your patience. STAGE CONTROL IS KEY TO THIS MU. If he approaches hold your ground. Don't let him bully you lolz.
Now this match up can be a bit difficult depending on your skill level. Sonic is good at neutral because he's so fast, and can mix up his approach very well. He also has alot have some aggressive options that could surprise you if you're not ready for them. That being said this is still a great match up for mario. Mainly because sonic has to do more to approach and get the hit, while Mario has safer options
Neutral game: Sonic thrives of a read and bait type of play style. He can cover alot of distance similar to C.falcon due to his ridiculous speed. He's not going use his speed to overwhelm you. Its more like you made a mistake so get rekt'd. That being said his main approach options, which is side b and down b both, get beat out by projectiles or pills/fireballs. The fact that mario has a strong projectile makes it so you could play his game but better. Sonic does not have a good answer to projectiles, pill/fireballs out prioritize sonic's down b and side b. This makes our projectiles a really nice conditioning tool. Make them approach how you want them to. If they are stubborn you can just pill them to death and frustrate the crap outta them.
PS. Just because you didn't hit Sonic with your pill doesn't mean you didn't punish him. If he retreats to avoid getting hit by pill, he's also giving up stage positioning. THINK ABOUT IT, Use this.
Punish Game: Sonic is at a really nice Fall Speed/Combo ratio. IIRC there is also a chain grab at him(Double check with the chain grab thread). Though in this MU you really will not be getting much grabs. Get them when you can off sheild grabs or when you whiff sonics grab. Even if you Don't chain grab, D throw leads into some nice Uairs for a combo or a Fair for A kill. All of our aerials out prioritize side b and down b approaches, make use of this once sonic commits too much. Nair works amazingly on Homing attack. Also if you catch him chasing you dash dance away > bair is always a good option.
Edgeguards: Sonic does not really have to much options for recovering. Typically they are going to down b(or side b idk) towards the stage then Up B. His Up Be has great Vertical range, recovering from deep. Sonic does have a down B Jump cancel for a good recovery option. it sends him at a diagonal curve towards in which ever direction sonic is facing. Though if you read that you could cape, bair, nair for the kill. You could also cape his up B since it is very predictable; or perhaps go for the edgehog.
How to Recover against sonic?: There really isnt much to doing this. sonic isnt really known for his gimping or edgeguarding ability.
What can we crouch cancel?: Everything really. Just remember CC on Sonic's Down B and SIde B is not really a good idea. He has alot of options out of these options. Most notably a JC grab.
Stages to Pick: GHz, PS2, FD, Dreamland, Smashville.IMO battlefield is not a good pick, a good sonic will have some pretty funky platform movement that can lead into some combos. Ban it and similar stages along with Wario ware.
Last thoughts: This is a good match up that will test your patience. STAGE CONTROL IS KEY TO THIS MU. If he approaches hold your ground. Don't let him bully you lolz.
General good advice -
for spacie match by Gez: They're easily comboable/ gimpable/ murderable, so all the difficulty and importance of those matchups are the neutral. If you want to beat space animals you have to do it in the neutral game.
Mario does not have alot of range and does not do well against people with large/alot disjoints. (Fire Emblem, M2)
Up tilts is an anti air. Use it when you can. Stay ground as much as you can.
A must watch. Though this video does not feature mario, its concepts are critical to being a good mario player.
From melee doc boards credit to SmashMac -
Tip#2
If you're going to spam pills, spam them correctly. You should be throwing pills to create a wall of defense that makes your opponent have a hard time just getting to you.(definition on how to Spam correctly can change per MU)
Also once 3.6 kicks in the MU List will be updated . though i think for Mario his match ups will remain pretty much the same
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