7. Mr. Game & Watch- Sonic Counterpick/Ban discussion

[Kinzer]

R.O.B.?

Well R.O.B. is a pretty Gay character, but it wouldn't seem like it, but hey don't listen to Camal, you obviously (no sarcasm here, honest) have much more knowledge then I would about this kind of thing.

Not like Olimar however, where he is a Gay character and is Gay to/for Sonic. @#$% that loser, drives me insane how he can carry bad players and make fighting the good players a slit-wrist task.

 

[Camalange]

Marth write up complete.


I figured we could do GaW next since Chis just recently released a guide thread on how to beat them so, these two threads could work together.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Oh, I do NOT want to go Rainbow Cruise. Game and Watch dominates the air and where do we stay in the air at all times?

I'm not sure about Jungle Japes, because GaW's best kill moves (U-smash, D-smash) are both of top and you can live them to ridiculous %'s. GaW is light, but has better kill moves. You both kill at about the same %.

For Neutrals, I'd probably go with FD, iSDR doesn't have much use, you clank with basically anything that ******* wall of priority has.

 

[Kinzer]

I wouldn't really recommend Japes against G&W, his kills aren't only off the top, have you ever been killed by a sourspotted DSmash?

FS seems like a good CP here, because it's just a straight-up battle of prediction and punishment, no getting around platforms or any of that junk like you would have to deal with on BF. Then again with some thought put into this you can do just as well if not better on BF, but me personally I rather have to only worry about character Vs. character, this MU is bad enough as is.

Of course of FD is banned, SV is the next best choice, although platforms can get in the way of you, think of having a mobile fortress for an extra dimension in your punishment game. Consider that you can work decent with platforms, like with it around G&W isn't as free to spam that Up-B -> Dair or just dair, least not with the thing getting in the way of the destined target (you). Or how about that you can punish G&W for trying to recover and land on the platform when it's out of the stage, which is much easier than trying to intercept him when he can SS the ledge.

If anybody has any ideas for counterpick stages on G&W, let me know, otherwise you can't go wrong with the basics (neutrals).

 

[~TBS~]

Seriously for G&W, is possible, go to lylat. G&W have to be careful here with the way the ship tilts. Add that in with you keeping them off the stage should give you a pretty good chance.

as for SV, i have to agree with Kinzer. Angel Island Zone is gone. Stupid priority with ISDR. :/

as for a legit CP, i cant think. Either way, this 2D ageless guy is gonna kill you. His attacks has unbelieveablewtfomg knockback...this irks meh.

 

[Camalange]

I'm having trouble deciding what stages to take GaW too, I think it's more personal preference.

Lylat seems like a good option. I honestly think BF > FD this time around because the platforms make it a bit easier to get inside him imo

 

[Kinzer]

Lylat is your best Neutral (if available).

It's also a good stage.

If not Lylat, then BF works too, you need to be good with platforms but I think you have that covered huh Cammie? ^_-

 

[Camalange]

If not Lylat, then BF works too, you need to be good with platforms but I think you have that covered huh Cammie? ^_-

;D


Ban RC? Where else would GaW become a bigger threat?

I sadly don't have a lot of GaW experince, so for all I know RC is GOOD for him :/

 

[Kinzer]

Oh yeah, RC is out of the question.

Too much aerial dominance, not enough stable ground to **** with.

 

[Chis]

Revival bump?

 

[day-day]

Revival bump?

I think this thread needed one..

 

[Camalange]

I know very little about this matchup.

Other people need to discuss, LOL

All I know is to ban RC.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Don't ever ban RC. I take MK's, Warios and GaW's there that can 2 stock me on BF and then I Low percent 2 stock them on Cruise. Sonic's mobility is TOOOOOO ****ing good there. MK has the problem of poor aerial speed and that Shuttle Loop loses to spring. Every approach is on our terms. Wario can't air camp WELL there.(he might be able to. I don't play a ton of Wario's) and GaW is too commited to anything he does controlling his movement. It's like playing him anywhere else except he becomes even EASIER to read. lol

I guess with my bias aside I like SV the best. You still have plenty of room to do fakeouts and GaW doesn't really have time to bucket brake.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

If were banning stages for the guy. Let's ban Norfair for the guy. I'll explain later, I have to go down some yardwork.

 

[Kinzer]

God Norfair needs to get banned...

 

[Chis]

And make Link suck even more? No thanks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ban Japes. G&W survives forever there, and he still KOs you really early when he lands his Smashes and stuff.

 

[Camalange]

And make Link suck even more? No thanks.

I think Norfair is banned at most tournies anyway that aren't WC.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Ban Japes. G&W survives forever there, and he still KOs you really early when he lands his Smashes and stuff.

I....ummmm.... agree with A2?


I think this makes me a bad person.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@ cam
Norfair is ONLY banned in the AN son, step your knowledge game up.

@ terry.
dont feel bad, hes actually right. i was actually just as surprised that he came correct and left the BS at home

and i still maintain that sonic should counter pick snake or MK for game and watch

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

If you're not actually any good with Snake GaW can be a pretty hard matchup. Marth however is much simpler to pick up and do well with against GaW.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

No, what I mean is if we are fighting a G&W player we should ban it. I heard he does very well on that stage.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well I played a GaW once and 2 stocked him and got taken to Norfair and lost so..... I made a lot of stupid running into lava mistakes though. D=

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Well I played a GaW once and 2 stocked him and got taken to Norfair and lost so..... I made a lot of stupid running into lava mistakes though. D=

Dude Sonic won't do well on Norfair. He has no place to get his steak dance(running and jumping) started. So we gotta pick places where we are free. I find DP to be an awesome place for Sonic becuase most of the areas help Sonic expect that one with a lot of water and 4 to 5 platforms. Aslo being able to go through the stage is always epic steak sauce.

 

[Kinzer]

And make Link suck even more? No thanks.

Sadly one stage is not going to make a character any better.

Ban Japes. G&W survives forever there, and he still KOs you really early when he lands his Smashes and stuff.

WTF A2 is actually right and I don't get a headache skimming through his post.

...@#$%, get to the choppa! bunker, the apocalypse is coming!

Also da@#$% KID, just because MK is easy to pick up and get good with-

D'oh @#$% it I don't even want to try, I stayed up late and for a long time last night, got 3 hours of sleep that same morning, and have been awake since.

 

[Chis]

Oh it can Kinzer.

 

[A2ZOMG]

dont feel bad, hes actually right. i was actually just as surprised that he came correct and left the BS at home

I don't talk BS. I take this game very seriously.

Very few people can keep up with my observation skills, and not everyone is willing to accept their character flaws. That's fine with me though. It's really your loss if you don't pay attention to me. I discover stuff. How about you?

Really, counterpicking vs G&W is very simple. Japes is the worst stage to go up against him. FD is the best stage. There is nothing really to argue.

If you're not actually any good with Snake GaW can be a pretty hard matchup. Marth however is much simpler to pick up and do well with against GaW.

Trust me, Marth vs G&W requires a HUGE learning curve for Marth. This matchup is over 9000 times more complicated in practice than it is on paper.

You kinda have to play a G&W that knows how to bait. But Marth gets WRECKED by good baiting, and his range advantage is fairly small when you look at the options that G&W is most likely to use vs Marth.

The easiest character to use against G&W is MK basically. MK is a lot safer with his pokes and KO moves, and as long as you don't screw up his recovery and as long as you don't fail at teching, it's harder for G&W to bait him.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Alright. I still think it's easier than Snake at first. I was saying if you just need a quick pickup character. Snake has a much stronger matchup vs. GaW once you learn it. Which is all that should count really. lol

It's just that Marth in GENERAL is easier to pick up with some competence than Snake.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most of the G&Ws think Snake is starting to be more like 55/45 when you account for G&W camping Snake back and Snake's offensive game being a bit more linear in general, and Snake being easier to capitalize on in certain situations whether it's above G&W or offstage.

A lot of us are coming to the consensus that MK is G&W's worst matchup. After watching UTD Zac's recent videos (even the ones where he does win), I feel this is probably accurate.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

All I know is I play Snake and my first competent GaW was a nightmare for like 7 freaking matches lol

 

[Camalange]

I don't talk BS. I take this game very seriously.

Very few people can keep up with my observation skills, and not everyone is willing to accept their character flaws. That's fine with me though. It's really your loss if you don't pay attention to me. I discover stuff. How about you?

I lol'd.





But yeah, good discussion so far. Final concesus/thoughts guize?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I feel as though SV/FD are our best bets for CPs. Both of them have advantages and disadvantages. I think we should strike Japes, Norfair and MAYBE RC. I'd want to test RC a little more personally cause I feel our mobility keeps this from being nearly as bad as Japes or Norfair.

 

[Kinzer]

Japes being the worst CP against G&W?

Oh I knew his posts were too good to be true, seeing as how a lot of his kills are off the top, and the rest of them being off the side.

Freaking dying at 80~% is not fun, and Japes lets you have some fun since it has its ginourmous ceiling.

Also what is this discussion about G&W counterpicks... on mah Sawnik boards?! GD it if you want to talk any other character's metagame evolution/devolution we have other boards for that, but in mah house we keep things fanboyish, and if y'all don't like it WTF you doing here again?

Ah but seriously this board is for talking about Sonic's metagame, not how to improve player metagames, I would appreciate it if everybody can keep this in the Xat or something since I seem to be the only GD person in this place that actually tries to get things done with Sonic.

 

[ithrowthings]

I feel as though SV/FD are our best bets for CPs. Both of them have advantages and disadvantages. I think we should strike Japes, Norfair and MAYBE RC. I'd want to test RC a little more personally cause I feel our mobility keeps this from being nearly as bad as Japes or Norfair.

this.
10thises

I usually beat this MW G&W pretty regularly. He CP'd me to RC and killed me with a fsmash at 80%. He usually always goes Norfair, Japes, and RC.

 

[Camalange]

Alright, GaW discussion will now end today. I'll updated the OP sometime soon and move on to our next character tomorrow.

Thoughts on who should be next?

Thanks to everyone who participated (Kinzer/Terios/ITT/etc)

 

[Boxob.]

Jiggs.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this isnt melee

how about ddd

or peach

or tink

 

[Kinzer]

Peach would be a good place to start.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Peach is a tricky one.... What stages would give us an advantage really? Peach is a lot like us in that she's good at smash basics. Baiting, punishing and all around mindgaming. Except while we do it on the ground with speed she does it in the air with high priority hitboxes and turnips. The way Peach can be played is so VARIED it's going to be tough to agree on alot since I think personal experience is going to bias the hell out of us. It's going to be a REALLY flamy conversation in the end lol. The only thing that's gonna save us with this is that the Peaches are overall nice people. I'm sure they'd be willing to help.

That said I think we should focus on ways to accent our speed game rather than our ASC game and to take away from Peaches ability to land safely out of a float and use turnips effectively. Off the top of my head I'd probably go Delfino but there's not MUCH thought behind that and I like the music. ^_^

 

[Chis]

Ban japes and counter pick Yoshi's Island. The tilty surface mess up floats and such.