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5 Worst Characters in Our Current Metagame

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notyourparadigm

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Only speed and buster are relevant arts, the drawbacks for all the others are too bad to use (except jump while recovering I guess)
You're killing me here. While I won't try to defend lack of versatility of Smash other than edge guarding, Jump and Shield are severely under utilized and can achieve fantastic results if played properly. I'm a Jump fanatic myself, and can be used in advantage to press edge guards, in neutral to force advantage, in disadvantage to reset back to neutral... it's really a fantastically versatile art, with none of the damage output nerfs. The damage you take hurts, but luckily you can deactivate it when it hitstun. @Masonomace can tell you more about the glories of Shield art.

The only thing holding him back might be loathesome frame data, but his frame data is literally THAT BAD (as well as his damage output being awful) that he can't compete with most characters in the game.
You hit the nail on the head with that one, though. Vanilla damage output for Shulk is frustratingly mediocre (likely because the developers didn't want Buster to feel... erm... busted). The fact that I can get a sick 0% string and have <40% to show for it makes me one sad Shulk main.

But yeah, bias and all, I don't see Shulk as bottom 5. He's certainly bottom half of the cast IMO but nowhere near that rank.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Shulk is definitely one of the hardest (if not THE hardest) characters to utilize efficiently, simply because of his Monado Arts. But being very hard to use doesn't necessarily mean that the fighter is very bad.
 
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Furret24

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Well, this thread certainly ended up a bigger than I thought it would.

Kinda surprised :4gaw: hasn't been brought up more. He has virtually no kill power outside of his smashes, throws don't kill at 250%, abysmal grab range, dies at 80%, situational at best specials (except Fire), and has zero options against shields.

He does has dthrow and usmash, which are quite good though, so he's definitely not THE worst.
 
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Trifroze

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As with all threads like this, I'll remind everyone that Zelda has more tools than up-B. I don't know where this came from, I don't know why people believe it, but FW is not the only tool she has. Please read up on characters before saying things like this.

While I'm here, in no particular order: :4jigglypuff::4miigun::4miisword::4mewtwo::4samus:

It's difficult to determine the bottom 5 because all of those characters can hold their own quite well with a lot of the less viable characters. Honestly, bottom 5 doesn't really exist. It's more like a bottom tier all of which can contest with each other which includes 10 or 15 characters. Asking for a bottom five is like asking for a nickel from the hotel fountain. There are a lot more than 5 nickels in there and they're all worth the same amount.
Would be genuinely interested to hear what Zelda has compared to Mewtwo and Samus for example. They both have a charge projectile that kills at 100%, to start off, a plethora of other reliable and safe kill moves, and combos that do considerable damage. Mewtwo also has mobility and dangerous grab options, can't say more about him since I don't play him.

For Samus, all I'm going to ask for is to look at and seriously consider the implications of the following moves and traits:

- zair and its damage, range, speed and safety
- dash attack, its damage, movement, safety and the combos it sets up for with uair, fair and up b
- charge shot
- utilt and its safety, power and setup potential
- dtilt with its speed, damage, disjoint and range
- ftilt with its speed, range and safety
- jab1 speed and safety
- back air as a kill move
- fsmash as a kill move
- up b OoS

Then also seriously consider her weaknesses: difficulty landing, inability to rely on grab against shields, below average mobility and bad rolls. Ultimately despite her tilts, jab and up b she can be pressured at CQC because of the other shortcomings, and disadvantage is tough to come back from. However, this is the case for most characters that are perceived weak. Question is, do they have similar strengths to Samus when it comes to neutral and advantage? I really don't think so.
 
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-_ellipsis_-

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Zelda, Ganondorf, Palutena, Bowser and Mewtwo all place in bottom 5 for me. Samus has more than proven herself at this point to not be bottom 5 material.
 

Ghostbone

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Shulk is definitely one of the hardest (if not THE hardest) characters to utilize efficiently, simply because of his Monado Arts. But being very hard to use doesn't necessarily mean that the fighter is very bad.
Neither does being hard to use mean that when used at maximum potential the character is good.

Shulk using all his arts/tricks effectively is still an awful character held back by awful frame data, damage output, kill power and mobility.
An art only solves one of these problems at a time (and never the awful frame data), while exacerbating all the other problems.

Zelda, Ganondorf, Palutena, Bowser and Mewtwo all place in bottom 5 for me. Samus has more than proven herself at this point to not be bottom 5 material.
Absolutely ridiculous

Ganondorf, Palutena and Mewtwo all have 100x the results Samus does.
 
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ArikadoSD

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Zelda, Ganondorf, Palutena, Bowser and Mewtwo all place in bottom 5 for me. Samus has more than proven herself at this point to not be bottom 5 material.
I find it ludicrous that you think Bowser is worse than Samus.

Bowser has a command grab that comes out on frame 8 and can easily kill at 80% with rage. And bowser gets rage so easily because he's not the easiest to kill. That's not to mention his autocancel fair/bair, up b oss, Jab to grab/down b mixups/confirms, and amazing ledge covering options

Samus, on the other hand, has zair.. and nothing else that comes to mind, pretty much.
 
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B1_

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Damage output, kill power and mobility for shulk? Bad? You gotta be kidding me right lmao
 

Dre89

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I find it ludicrous that you think Bowser is worse than Samus.

Bowser has a command grab that comes out on frame 8 and can easily kill at 80% with rage. And bowser gets rage so easily because he's not the easiest to kill. That's not to mention his autocancel fair/bair, up b oss, Jab to grab/down b mixups/confirms, and amazing ledge covering options

Samus, on the other hand, has zair.. and nothing else that comes to mind, pretty much.
Bowser kills the entire cast except maybe D3 at 90 or lower off options that are frame 11 or faster.

He also has good spacing tools in jab and all the grab variants, is like top 3 for damage on-hit and has high reward landing options if he predicts correctly.

People who think he is anywhere near bottom 5 do not understand this character at all. Even just the idea that's he's worse than Charizard, who is very similar but kills 40% later on average is absurd.
 

SeanS

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Well, this thread certainly ended up a bigger than I thought it would.

Kinda surprised :4gaw: hasn't been brought up more. He has virtually no kill power outside of his smashes, throws don't kill at 250%, abysmal grab range, dies at 80%, situational at best specials (except Fire), and has zero options against shields.

He does has dthrow and usmash, which are quite good though, so he's definitely not THE worst.
Nah, he's mid tier.

In terms of killing power specifically, he has some of the best edgeguarding in the game and strong ledge getup coverage alongside his relatively safe smashes, as well as a respectable ftilt.

His lack of a kill throw is certainly one of the worst things about him considering the rest of his moveset, but he does have a strong throw combo game that can occasionally lead into a kill in specific scenarios.

Increasingly, bucket is becoming competitively despite having a terrible reputation for the most part. Sheik and Mega Man are beginning to see heavy bucket use to effect, it has potential in Mario / Luigi / Pikachu / Ness for sure (even if just threatened), and it is also quite useful in less common MUs like Mewtwo, Palutena, Robin, and Samus.

Anti-shield game is bad, but walk-up game, foxtrot game, sourspot fair / dash attack to jab, and even simple smash + tilt pressure can do things for you if you are experienced enough.
 

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I find it ludicrous that you think Bowser is worse than Samus.

Bowser has a command grab that comes out on frame 8 and can easily kill at 80% with rage. And bowser gets rage so easily because he's not the easiest to kill. That's not to mention his autocancel fair/bair, up b oss, Jab to grab/down b mixups/confirms, and amazing ledge covering options

Samus, on the other hand, has zair.. and nothing else that comes to mind, pretty much.
Duly noted. I'll have to replace Bowser with Charizard. I do admit that I face more Zards than Bowsers and helps my own confirmation bias.

You're also ridiculous if you think zair is the only thing Samus has.
 

Zylach

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Would be genuinely interested to hear what Zelda has compared to Mewtwo and Samus for example. They both have a charge projectile that kills at 100%, to start off, a plethora of other reliable and safe kill moves, and combos that do considerable damage. Mewtwo also has mobility and dangerous grab options, can't say more about him since I don't play him.

For Samus, all I'm going to ask for is to look at and seriously consider the implications of the following moves and traits:

- zair and its damage, range, speed and safety
- dash attack, its damage, movement, safety and the combos it sets up for with uair, fair and up b
- charge shot
- utilt and its safety, power and setup potential
- dtilt with its speed, damage, disjoint and range
- ftilt with its speed, range and safety
- jab1 speed and safety
- back air as a kill move
- fsmash as a kill move
- up b OoS

Then also seriously consider her weaknesses: difficulty landing, inability to rely on grab against shields, below average mobility and bad rolls. Ultimately despite her tilts, jab and up b she can be pressured at CQC because of the other shortcomings, and disadvantage is tough to come back from. However, this is the case for most characters that are perceived weak. Question is, do they have similar strengths to Samus when it comes to neutral and advantage? I really don't think so.
Oh I know Samus' strengths. I second her and won one of my local tourneys with her. One of the reasons I have her down there (and I repeat that I don't think a bottom 5 list does justice to the game's balance) is because of her lack of a grab. She has the same problems that ZSS has with it: it's not safe to throw out, it comes out slowly, is easily punished, and her reward for landing a grab stops around 50% (something that doesn't affect ZSS). Another reason I put her there is the general lack of safety on some of her spacing tools. Zair is her best spacing tool by far and there's no argument that it's what keeps her alive in most MU's. When an opponent gets closer to her, though, she starts to have problems. You mention her dtilt and ftilt but they're actually not amazing moves.

Dtilt has just enough endlag for Samus to get punished for hitting a shield with it and has no guaranteed followups. It's nice against people that don't run up and shield immediately but if your opponent does run up and shield, you're gonna get punished. Same goes for ftilt but all those problems are exacerbated by its terrible hitbox design. The change it got a few patches ago that gave it a million different hitboxes really hurt the move. When the opponent is at low percents (0-15%-ish), ftilt isn't even safe on hit if you land the inner two hitboxes against them because of the lack of BKB and endlag on the move. This makes it completely unsafe until percents when the opponent gets knocked into a tumble animation by the closest two hitboxes which is too late for it to be consistently useful.

Her utilt is a great baiting tool because it's endlag is fairly low so Samus can follow up with a jab if the opponent thinks they can punish it. It's also her best combo starter outside of dash attack and dthrow (if she can ever land a grab that is) since it leads into basically any aerial Samus wants but its startup is so slow that landing the move is a chore and, if it lands on a grounded opponent, it can be teched meaning no followups and punished by characters with quick jabs.

Everything else you say is right. Dash attack is good but it is unsafe on whiff and when shielded but leads to uair strings for big damage. CS is what makes Samus Samus. Jab 1 is one of her best tools. Bair is her best kill tool outside of CS and dair spikes. Fsmash isn't actually that great a kill move because the endlag is ferocious and the hitbox is wonky. Utilt is also a kill move on an aerial opponent. Screw Attack OoS is nice but there are characters with better OoS punishes which are also a lot safer than Screw Attack.

Samus has a lot going for her but a lot of her spacing tools outside of zair mean she actually struggles to keep people out of her space and, up close, she's not all that strong outside of her frame 3 jab and decent aerial game. Again, I struggle to consider candidates for bottom 5 because bottom 5 is such a meaningless thing in this game. All the characters I listed could probably be swapped out for another 5 characters (Though I'm not too keen on Jiggly being higher than bottom 5, I haven't faced any amazing Puffs but I'd like to).

As for what Zelda has, I'll say she does have some nasty combos that are started from moves like dtilt, dthrow, uthrow, jab, and nair. The classic one being grab>dthrow>nair>Lkick which works at low percents (0-20%) mostly on heavies which can do a quick 30%. She can dtilt>Lkick guaranteed at mid percents (25-50%-ish), dtilt>jab>dash attack can do upwards of 22% if all hits connect and the DA is sweespotted. Landing nair can be followed up by basically anything including dsmash, usmash, and elevator guaranteed. Landing with the first hit of nair combos into Lkicks as well and can be done consistently out of SHAD. Don't forget Nayru's Love that has intangibility frames between frames 5-11 and does a great job at punishing rolls and spotdodges and does 11% on top of that. Plus, her offstage presence is outstanding since she has one of the safest recoveries in the game. She's got nair and Nayru's Love multihits offstage to catch airdodges and predictable recoveries as well as dair which will spike an opponent even with the sourspot so most characters won't be able to come back when they're sourspot dair'ed.

If you wanna know any more details, here are a few helpful links to our analyses on the Zeldaboards.

Here's our video thread for visual examples: http://smashboards.com/threads/hyrule-duels-zelda-sm4sh-video-thread.388470/
Here's our data thread for all the raw numbers and some known combos: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-great-fairy-fountain-ii-zelda-data-research-repository.370698/
And here's one of our best, albeit a bit outdated, guides if you're really curious: http://smashboards.com/guides/zelda-guide-lightning-looks-good-on-you.115/
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I've often thought that Greninja was an unsafe fighter to be using, but I guess that's mostly because I'm quite lousy with it. I know that it's not bottom 5 bad, but sometimes it felt like it to me, simply because it didn't feel very safe with it approach options, and its KO move options were quite limited too.
 

Dre89

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Duly noted. I'll have to replace Bowser with Charizard. I do admit that I face more Zards than Bowsers and helps my own confirmation bias.

You're also ridiculous if you think zair is the only thing Samus has.
Charizard is just a worse Bowser. His superior mobility is less relevant against top tiers because all of them except Rosa are much more mobile than him anyway. Bowser has better spacing and burst options, which matter way more in neutral if you're slower than your opponent.

Bowser's landing options have much higher reward and unlike Charizard they don't all get countered by shielding. Charizard has the extra jump and SA options but Bowser is much riskier to try juggle once he's out of combo percents.

The biggest thing though is that he just kills way earlier. Heavies need to have reliable kill options on top tiers pre 100 to stand a chance at a high level of play. Charizard just does not kill early enough out of fast options for how much he loses in neutral and gets combod.
 
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Trifroze

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Oh I know Samus' strengths. I second her and won one of my local tourneys with her. One of the reasons I have her down there (and I repeat that I don't think a bottom 5 list does justice to the game's balance) is because of her lack of a grab. She has the same problems that ZSS has with it: it's not safe to throw out, it comes out slowly, is easily punished, and her reward for landing a grab stops around 50% (something that doesn't affect ZSS). Another reason I put her there is the general lack of safety on some of her spacing tools. Zair is her best spacing tool by far and there's no argument that it's what keeps her alive in most MU's. When an opponent gets closer to her, though, she starts to have problems. You mention her dtilt and ftilt but they're actually not amazing moves.

Dtilt has just enough endlag for Samus to get punished for hitting a shield with it and has no guaranteed followups. It's nice against people that don't run up and shield immediately but if your opponent does run up and shield, you're gonna get punished. Same goes for ftilt but all those problems are exacerbated by its terrible hitbox design. The change it got a few patches ago that gave it a million different hitboxes really hurt the move. When the opponent is at low percents (0-15%-ish), ftilt isn't even safe on hit if you land the inner two hitboxes against them because of the lack of BKB and endlag on the move. This makes it completely unsafe until percents when the opponent gets knocked into a tumble animation by the closest two hitboxes which is too late for it to be consistently useful.

Her utilt is a great baiting tool because it's endlag is fairly low so Samus can follow up with a jab if the opponent thinks they can punish it. It's also her best combo starter outside of dash attack and dthrow (if she can ever land a grab that is) since it leads into basically any aerial Samus wants but its startup is so slow that landing the move is a chore and, if it lands on a grounded opponent, it can be teched meaning no followups and punished by characters with quick jabs.

Everything else you say is right. Dash attack is good but it is unsafe on whiff and when shielded but leads to uair strings for big damage. CS is what makes Samus Samus. Jab 1 is one of her best tools. Bair is her best kill tool outside of CS and dair spikes. Fsmash isn't actually that great a kill move because the endlag is ferocious and the hitbox is wonky. Utilt is also a kill move on an aerial opponent. Screw Attack OoS is nice but there are characters with better OoS punishes which are also a lot safer than Screw Attack.

Samus has a lot going for her but a lot of her spacing tools outside of zair mean she actually struggles to keep people out of her space and, up close, she's not all that strong outside of her frame 3 jab and decent aerial game. Again, I struggle to consider candidates for bottom 5 because bottom 5 is such a meaningless thing in this game. All the characters I listed could probably be swapped out for another 5 characters (Though I'm not too keen on Jiggly being higher than bottom 5, I haven't faced any amazing Puffs but I'd like to).

As for what Zelda has, I'll say she does have some nasty combos that are started from moves like dtilt, dthrow, uthrow, jab, and nair. The classic one being grab>dthrow>nair>Lkick which works at low percents (0-20%) mostly on heavies which can do a quick 30%. She can dtilt>Lkick guaranteed at mid percents (25-50%-ish), dtilt>jab>dash attack can do upwards of 22% if all hits connect and the DA is sweespotted. Landing nair can be followed up by basically anything including dsmash, usmash, and elevator guaranteed. Landing with the first hit of nair combos into Lkicks as well and can be done consistently out of SHAD. Don't forget Nayru's Love that has intangibility frames between frames 5-11 and does a great job at punishing rolls and spotdodges and does 11% on top of that. Plus, her offstage presence is outstanding since she has one of the safest recoveries in the game. She's got nair and Nayru's Love multihits offstage to catch airdodges and predictable recoveries as well as dair which will spike an opponent even with the sourspot so most characters won't be able to come back when they're sourspot dair'ed.

If you wanna know any more details, here are a few helpful links to our analyses on the Zeldaboards.

Here's our video thread for visual examples: http://smashboards.com/threads/hyrule-duels-zelda-sm4sh-video-thread.388470/
Here's our data thread for all the raw numbers and some known combos: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-great-fairy-fountain-ii-zelda-data-research-repository.370698/
And here's one of our best, albeit a bit outdated, guides if you're really curious: http://smashboards.com/guides/zelda-guide-lightning-looks-good-on-you.115/
Yeah, I genuinely want to study the game so I'll check into Zelda more through those links.

Some things I'll address about Samus though: utilt is particularly good as an anti-air and on the ledge especially against people who like to drop back and mid-air jump off of it or just jump normally. Properly spaced it's also safe on shield on the ground. If you look at dtilt differently, like a frame 6 disjointed CQC punish move that does 12% and hits all the way to the ground, the move is quite a lot better. It's in my opinion best used to quickly punish the opponent up close or hit them before they can touch you at that range, not really in situations where your opponent is likely to shield it, although it's still pretty good for spacing as well to remind opponents they can't just dash into you without a worry or pressure you freely within that range. Ftilt is at its best as a mid range spacing tool along with zair, within enough distance that you can abuse the buffed tip hitbox. I agree that overall the move got nerfed in 1.0.6, but at mid range it's now better, and you can just use jab1 when the opponent gets too close to you. Her tilts and jab1 are good because they work so well together as a package.

Fsmash has above average endlag but it's tied as the fastest fsmash and has above average power. Haven't used the move much but I think it's a great option to have and I probably need to start utilizing it way more. Dash attack is actually quite safe when you consider how much Samus moves forward during it and how little time there actually is between the hitbox completely ending and Samus being able to act again (less than MK and Fox).

With ftilt, zair and DA I honestly feel more capable at mid range with Samus than I do with anyone else except Falcon. Getting pressured due to bad rolls, bad grab and low mobility and dealing with disadvantage is her main problem, but I don't think she really needs grab offensively as she deals with shields quite well outside of it. Getting off the ledge is relatively easy for Samus at least. If you consider low tier characters I think Samus pretty much ruins most of them, especially the superheavies, and generally does well against everyone who isn't fast with good CQC options.
 

Zethoro

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Woah woah, what's with people saying Kirby's bottom five? I think he's low-tier, but he's nowhere near being one of the worst five characters in the game.
No kidding. For those calling Kirby bottom 5, it's pretty common belief from those who know the matchups of the top tiers vs. Kirby, Kirby actually has a positive MU against ZSS, and an even or 55:45 MU against Shiek.
Anyone with the tools to take on the top two isn't bottom 5, as that alone gives him relevance in the metagame.
(All his other top tier MUs with the exception of Falcon are pretty bad though.)

I'm gonna have to say Samus, Palutena, Bowser Junior, Bowser and Zelda.

Samus- lack of reliable kill options is what makes her bad and I she can't land well since she is floaty. Great zoning and combo game though.

Bowser- is the easiest character to combo since he's the heaviest in the cast. He can't land to save his life, and he can be camped out easily even though his speed has been buffed in this game. Very punishable smash attacks and predictable recovery with mediocre vertical height.
Samus actually has no trouble killing. Charge Shot and BAir are more than enough to let her kill at reasonable percents, and she does quite well on stages with low vertical blast zones and UpB kills decently well there and Samus's UpB is easily her best tool.
I'm honestly debating whether she's really bottom 5 (though she's in the lower part of the cast for sure.)
As for Bowser, he may have some serious trouble with landing (which is what really makes him combo food, not the fact that he's heavy), but Bowser has one of the best OoS games in the game, an incredible jab and DTilt, multiple dangerous, low lag moves (FAir and BAir can be autocanceled, DTilt is unpunishable on block and does a ton of damage and kills reliably past 100 towards the edges of the stage, and Bowser Bomb can be ledge canceled which makes it incredibly dangerous and it cannot be challenged whatsoever without a huge vertical disjoint like Palutena's USmash or Rosa's UAir.) A kill throw (Side-B counts, and is stronger than most kill throws too.), and a very deadly edgeguard game (his FAir has a huge arc that covers tons of options.)
He has tons of flaws, but I think he's probably only bottom 15.
 

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No kidding. For those calling Kirby bottom 5, it's pretty common belief from those who know the matchups of the top tiers vs. Kirby, Kirby actually has a positive MU against ZSS, and an even or 55:45 MU against Shiek.
Anyone with the tools to take on the top two isn't bottom 5, as that alone gives him relevance in the metagame.
(All his other top tier MUs with the exception of Falcon are pretty bad though.)


Samus actually has no trouble killing. Charge Shot and BAir are more than enough to let her kill at reasonable percents, and she does quite well on stages with low vertical blast zones and UpB kills decently well there and Samus's UpB is easily her best tool.
I'm honestly debating whether she's really bottom 5 (though she's in the lower part of the cast for sure.)
As for Bowser, he may have some serious trouble with landing (which is what really makes him combo food, not the fact that he's heavy), but Bowser has one of the best OoS games in the game, an incredible jab and DTilt, multiple dangerous, low lag moves (FAir and BAir can be autocanceled, DTilt is unpunishable on block and does a ton of damage and kills reliably past 100 towards the edges of the stage, and Bowser Bomb can be ledge canceled which makes it incredibly dangerous and it cannot be challenged whatsoever without a huge vertical disjoint like Palutena's USmash or Rosa's UAir.) A kill throw (Side-B counts, and is stronger than most kill throws too.), and a very deadly edgeguard game (his FAir has a huge arc that covers tons of options.)
He has tons of flaws, but I think he's probably only bottom 15.
Bowser's OOS isn't that great because top tiers are safe on shield most of the time.

His landing options are not that bad once he gets out of true combo percents. All of them are commitments but he has an answer for every option the opponent can chose and probably has the highest reward on landing options in the game.
 
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Shulk is very interesting and deep but that doesn't make him good, he's still incredibly awful.
Oh, he's bad, sure, but as bad as Mewtwo? As bad as Zelda? He's nowhere near there.

Now, as for an out-of-the-box pick: Little Mac. This character is not viable. In fact, he's probably the only character who is fundamentally not viable as a single-pick main. You're going to suck if you only play Zelda or Samus, but if you only play Little Mac, you should never win a single set. You should lose round one, win on your counterpick, then lose on their counterpick. Every single time. Most people don't camp this character as hard as they should, but he just has no options against platform camping. Random upB? Okay, I'll eat 3-4%, then go right back to camping, and if you whiff, I'll just body you to death because your character has no air-to-air options and I can keep you up there. Mac sucks. The results people like Sol are putting up are impressive signs that people still don't get how to fight this character almost a year after release.

Beyond that, Samus, Zelda, and Mewtwo are pretty obvious candidates. Christ, those characters are bad. That said, Bowser Jr? Seriously? That character is definitely viable. Freakin' Kirby? Dude, Kirby does okay against top tiers. He's not that bad. Game&Watch? Are you guys high?
 
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ARGHETH

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Damage output, kill power and mobility for shulk? Bad? You gotta be kidding me right lmao
Might want to explain this. One line statements are not helpful.
(And please don't just say Monandos)
Kirby actually has...an even or 55:45 MU against Shiek.
How? Over at the viability thread we argue about this all the time, but most people there (Kirby mains included) agree that Kirby doesn't have an even MU vs Sheik, and especially not a positive one.
Here's some quotes:
":4sheik:: Kirby vs Sheik is an iffy one. I think it's between -1 to -2 and most Kirby players seem to agree. Kirby's floatiness and size give Sheik trouble, we can duck under needles and take our own (if we can get it). We have okay combos against her, and Sheik's aggressive nature give us an edge in the MU. Her speed, in-gimpable recovery, range, and good edge-guards against us make this MU a loss though."
" I'm still convinced that the matchup is at least 50-50 under the condition that Kirby has Upper Cutter, and has access to Sheik's Needles, but since this condition is never met (customs are almost universally banned) I'd put it at 40-60ish."
"Kirby is not viable. He has been talked about before in this thread, like 50 pages back. He has good frame data and good combos, but poor mobility and lacks an approach to really let him apply his neutral. He may have quirks in the matchup vs Sheik, but no way does he go even with her when she beats him in overall mobility, range and neutral. "
"Kirby Sheik (imo) is not close to good. Sheik demolishes Kirby in neutral, and while we can duck under needles they are hard to react to. She is faster than us in the air and on the ground, she can edge-guard us easily while we can't edge-guard her. That MU is prob 40:60 maybe worse, I no longer see kirby as a good choice against sheik in a non-customs meta.'
Those were mostly by Kirby mains.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
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Oh, he's bad, sure, but as bad as Mewtwo? As bad as Zelda? He's nowhere near there.
Mewtwo is a lot better than Shulk

Mewtwo does crazy damage per hit and has kill throws, a charge up projectile, reflector, better frame data, really good recovery, very good range (though obvs shulk has more). Mewtwo has a lot of upsides and there's a reason the Japanese think he's closer to mid than bottom tier. Shulk is just awful, not even 9B (clearly one of the most skilled smash player around) could make him work.

Shulk is better than Zelda, but he's still bottom 5. I mean I think Shulk is definitely better than the other 4 characters I put there, but still worse than the likes of D3.
 
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