4BR Tier List V3 Followup

v3 followup.png

On March 1st, 2017, the 4BR released Tier List V3, the latest Smash for Wii U Tier List:

smash 4 backroom tier list v3 2.png

After some in-house discussion with Smash for Wii U Backroom members as well as time for various opinions on the list to form, we'd like to address a handful of the more frequently asked questions, as well as talk a bit about some of the characters who have generated more discussion than others.

Frequently Asked Questions

Why was Bottom Tier dropped?

With a few rare exceptions, many characters in the game are capable of performing well at the regional level, and can sometimes break out at national or higher levels. While the game definitely has tiers, 4BR members seemed to agree; even though there are a few characters that have tended to struggle quite a bit in the meta, there isn't anything that would be worthy of being considered "Bottom Tier" and, thus, the label was dropped.

This can also be extended as to why there has been less individual tiers (7 tiers, coming down from 9) and Top Tier as a whole having grown larger; with more characters being developed and their potential being put to work at the highest levels of play, many characters have shot up in viability, even without a patch.

Why were Lucina and the Miis relegated to the addendum?

Lucina: As stated on the initial release, the 4BR felt that, as a whole, Lucina is a polarizing character with vastly differing opinions on her viability. The 4BR leaders decided to place her as an optional vote, but include her if there was sufficient data, believing that she would likely be a highly contested topic.

Miis: The reasoning was similar to Tier List v2.0. Despite many majors relegating Miis to their 1111 Guest Size ruling, a decent chunk of the world, including some areas of the US, has XXXX Guest Size as their ruling. Out of respect for both rulesets as well as the 4BR members and Mii players who play under different rulesets, along with those who are unfamiliar with the characters, we opted to make them optional once again.

What other projects do you have on the horizon, including Tier List V4?

At the moment, our next immediate plan is to return to creating the Backroom Pass series, which features a 4BR member talking about a specific character they are knowledgeable about, with the next iteration planned for early April. Tier List V4 is targeted for an early September 2017 release (about 5-6 months from now). The next tier will focus on the time period from Frostbite 2017 to Shine 2017, including various major events such as EVO 2017, CEO 2017, CEO Dreamland, Civil War, and so on. In addition, there is some discussion of potential matchup chart projects in the future; more details will come at a later time, but we are aware that there is some interest in the creation of one.

Regional Data

As it goes, different regions have slightly different metas. While there are many similarities within these areas, there's also some key differences, sometimes even at the more well-defined ends of the tier list (Top and Low Tier).

@Shaya compiled the votes between our Japanese voters, our North American voters, and our International voters (anyone outside of North America). Keep in mind that, as smaller sample sizes result from separating the data like this, they are more indicative of general trends rather than rock-solid arguments.


Character | Ordered Score | Standard Deviation | Group Score | Group Standard Deviation
Sonic | 2.6 | 2.245 | 7.77 | 0.457
Diddy Kong | 2.7 | 0.872 | 7.77 | 0.457
Bayonetta | 3.0 | 2.28 | 7.77 | 0.457
Rosalina | 5.0 | 1.414 | 7.31 | 0.56
Cloud | 5.0 | 1.414 | 7.54 | 0.56
Sheik | 6.4 | 1.2 | 7.09 | 0.457
Mario | 8.4 | 2.498 | 6.86 | 0.0
Fox | 8.8 | 1.72 | 6.86 | 0.0
Mewtwo | 8.8 | 3.25 | 6.63 | 0.457
Zero Suit Samus | 9.4 | 1.2 | 6.86 | 0.0
Marth | 11.5 | 4.94 | 6.63 | 0.457
Corrin | 14.3 | 4.118 | 6.17 | 0.56
Lucina | 14.9 | 4.386 | 6.17 | 0.56
Ryu | 15.3 | 3.28 | 6.17 | 0.56
Pit | 17.7 | 2.676 | 5.71 | 0.0
Captain Falcon | 18.3 | 1.72 | 5.71 | 0.0
Meta Knight | 18.3 | 3.124 | 5.49 | 0.457
Lucario | 19.5 | 4.604 | 5.71 | 0.0
Bowser | 21.2 | 4.654 | 5.26 | 0.56
Olimar | 21.5 | 2.828 | 5.26 | 0.56
Villager | 21.6 | 3.541 | 5.26 | 0.56
Greninja | 22.5 | 4.359 | 5.26 | 0.56
Mega Man | 22.9 | 7.017 | 5.26 | 0.56
Toon Link | 23.6 | 2.634 | 5.03 | 0.56
Pikachu | 25.0 | 4.461 | 5.26 | 0.56
Donkey Kong | 25.8 | 3.473 | 5.03 | 0.56
Yoshi | 26.8 | 5.085 | 4.8 | 0.855
Lucas | 27.0 | 6.542 | 5.03 | 0.56
Peach | 27.3 | 4.512 | 5.03 | 0.56
Ness | 27.4 | 4.872 | 5.03 | 0.56
R.O.B. | 31.2 | 7.118 | 4.11 | 1.165
Shulk | 31.5 | 3.578 | 4.57 | 0.0
Luigi | 32.4 | 6.414 | 4.11 | 0.914
Duck Hunt Dog | 32.9 | 5.953 | 4.11 | 0.914
Ike | 34.9 | 3.555 | 3.89 | 0.914
Link | 36.2 | 4.905 | 3.89 | 0.914
Robin | 37.3 | 2.227 | 3.66 | 0.855
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.9 | 2.107 | 3.66 | 0.855
Pac-Man | 40.1 | 2.728 | 3.43 | 0.723
Samus | 41.0 | 2.168 | 3.43 | 0.723
Palutena | 41.4 | 2.853 | 2.97 | 0.56
Bowser Jr. | 42.0 | 4.324 | 2.97 | 0.56
Wario | 42.6 | 1.934 | 2.97 | 0.56
Charizard | 43.0 | 1.049 | 3.2 | 0.457
Falco | 44.5 | 5.657 | 2.51 | 1.12
Dr. Mario | 47.2 | 7.004 | 2.06 | 0.855
Little Mac | 47.4 | 4.62 | 2.29 | 0.723
Roy | 48.0 | 3.674 | 2.29 | 0.723
King Dedede | 48.2 | 3.444 | 2.29 | 0.723
Wii Fit Trainer | 49.8 | 2.112 | 2.06 | 0.457
Zelda | 49.8 | 4.986 | 2.06 | 0.855
Kirby | 50.0 | 1.871 | 1.83 | 0.56
Ganondorf | 51.6 | 1.158 | 1.6 | 0.56
Jigglypuff | 53.8 | 0.678 | 1.14 | 0.0


Character | Ordered Score | Standard Deviation | Group Score | Group Standard Deviation
Bayonetta | 1.86 | 1.136 | 7.95 | 0.194
Diddy Kong | 2.24 | 1.039 | 7.97 | 0.162
Cloud | 3.1 | 1.269 | 7.84 | 0.36
Sheik | 4.17 | 1.931 | 7.64 | 0.581
Mario | 6.12 | 1.541 | 7.33 | 0.679
Sonic | 6.19 | 2.019 | 7.25 | 0.623
Fox | 6.98 | 1.985 | 7.25 | 0.773
Rosalina | 8.95 | 2.513 | 7.04 | 0.711
Mewtwo | 9.33 | 2.027 | 6.94 | 0.666
Marth | 9.6 | 2.447 | 6.86 | 0.706
Zero Suit Samus | 9.98 | 2.191 | 6.78 | 0.652
Ryu | 11.88 | 2.69 | 6.64 | 0.795
Meta Knight | 15.03 | 2.798 | 5.89 | 0.78
Corrin | 15.03 | 3.978 | 5.98 | 0.904
Pikachu | 16.21 | 3.326 | 5.98 | 0.787
Mega Man | 16.72 | 2.572 | 5.67 | 0.58
Villager | 18.1 | 2.987 | 5.65 | 0.604
Lucina | 19.87 | 6.388 | 5.53 | 0.856
Toon Link | 19.97 | 3.672 | 5.4 | 0.713
Lucario | 20.72 | 5.999 | 5.31 | 0.856
Peach | 22.38 | 4.012 | 5.06 | 0.862
Greninja | 23.97 | 5.089 | 5.02 | 0.571
Captain Falcon | 24.21 | 4.824 | 4.99 | 0.886
Luigi | 25.0 | 4.756 | 4.85 | 0.788
Ness | 25.28 | 5.607 | 4.89 | 0.825
Bowser | 26.1 | 4.943 | 4.68 | 0.804
Donkey Kong | 26.33 | 4.442 | 4.64 | 0.673
Olimar | 27.02 | 7.505 | 4.58 | 1.089
Yoshi | 27.57 | 4.961 | 4.63 | 0.998
Robin | 28.64 | 5.319 | 4.35 | 0.815
R.O.B. | 30.29 | 4.645 | 4.27 | 1.027
Pit | 30.43 | 5.136 | 4.26 | 0.788
Lucas | 30.5 | 4.039 | 4.18 | 0.835
Ike | 34.16 | 3.656 | 3.7 | 0.84
Wario | 36.84 | 4.216 | 3.52 | 1.007
Duck Hunt Dog | 37.43 | 7.329 | 3.28 | 0.958
Shulk | 37.67 | 6.256 | 3.28 | 0.877
Palutena | 39.24 | 4.911 | 3.04 | 0.859
Mr. Game & Watch | 39.67 | 5.852 | 3.14 | 1.056
Link | 40.09 | 4.21 | 3.12 | 0.732
Samus | 40.16 | 5.906 | 2.84 | 1.218
Little Mac | 41.91 | 4.173 | 2.82 | 0.935
Roy | 42.52 | 5.462 | 2.84 | 1.002
Kirby | 43.09 | 4.62 | 2.8 | 1.078
Charizard | 43.28 | 5.994 | 2.69 | 1.129
Pac-Man | 44.14 | 5.923 | 2.71 | 1.055
Wii Fit Trainer | 44.9 | 5.013 | 2.44 | 0.972
Bowser Jr. | 45.07 | 5.626 | 2.48 | 1.3
Falco | 45.86 | 3.683 | 2.35 | 0.8
Dr. Mario | 46.97 | 4.206 | 2.28 | 0.895
King Dedede | 50.09 | 2.779 | 1.68 | 0.891
Mii Gunner | 51.86 | 2.695 | 1.6 | 0.516
Mii Brawler | 52.0 | 3.512 | 1.82 | 1.056
Ganondorf | 52.09 | 2.118 | 1.32 | 0.565
Zelda | 52.6 | 1.583 | 1.28 | 0.422
Jigglypuff | 53.5 | 1.597 | 1.21 | 0.436
Mii Swordsman | 54.0 | 3.423 | 1.52 | 0.615


Character | Ordered Score | Standard Deviation | Group Score | Group Standard Deviation
Bayonetta | 2.25 | 1.639 | 7.93 | 0.277
Diddy Kong | 2.41 | 0.888 | 7.93 | 0.277
Cloud | 3.69 | 1.648 | 7.64 | 0.53
Sheik | 4.31 | 2.083 | 7.59 | 0.532
Sonic | 4.62 | 2.315 | 7.53 | 0.539
Fox | 7.19 | 1.74 | 7.04 | 0.369
Mario | 7.44 | 2.263 | 7.1 | 0.437
Rosalina | 8.0 | 2.739 | 6.95 | 0.61
Mewtwo | 8.88 | 2.027 | 6.81 | 0.5
Zero Suit Samus | 9.62 | 1.9 | 6.65 | 0.462
Marth | 9.97 | 3.384 | 6.74 | 0.565
Ryu | 13.34 | 2.626 | 6.27 | 0.646
Corrin | 15.09 | 3.104 | 6.04 | 0.594
Meta Knight | 16.03 | 3.356 | 5.7 | 0.569
Lucina | 17.1 | 4.872 | 5.9 | 0.765
Villager | 18.38 | 3.599 | 5.69 | 0.615
Lucario | 19.34 | 4.599 | 5.57 | 0.416
Mega Man | 19.47 | 5.572 | 5.52 | 0.497
Pikachu | 20.31 | 5.517 | 5.55 | 0.526
Toon Link | 22.44 | 3.72 | 5.19 | 0.506
Captain Falcon | 22.53 | 3.967 | 5.35 | 0.546
Greninja | 22.72 | 3.614 | 5.18 | 0.549
Bowser | 23.0 | 5.774 | 5.21 | 0.69
Peach | 23.53 | 4.695 | 5.28 | 0.619
Olimar | 23.66 | 5.352 | 5.08 | 0.747
Ness | 24.0 | 5.3 | 5.04 | 0.572
Pit | 25.53 | 6.219 | 5.0 | 0.66
Luigi | 26.94 | 6.853 | 4.86 | 0.943
Donkey Kong | 27.19 | 4.031 | 4.83 | 0.568
Lucas | 29.44 | 5.545 | 4.65 | 0.676
Yoshi | 29.5 | 4.734 | 4.54 | 0.649
R.O.B. | 30.44 | 5.065 | 4.29 | 0.788
Robin | 34.28 | 3.873 | 3.99 | 0.656
Link | 35.88 | 4.92 | 3.82 | 0.843
Duck Hunt Dog | 36.47 | 4.722 | 3.67 | 0.78
Wario | 36.62 | 6.39 | 3.79 | 0.974
Ike | 36.66 | 4.39 | 3.64 | 0.758
Shulk | 36.66 | 5.107 | 3.82 | 0.74
Mr. Game & Watch | 38.28 | 4.796 | 3.57 | 0.72
Samus | 40.56 | 4.87 | 3.12 | 0.943
Charizard | 42.12 | 4.193 | 3.12 | 0.592
Little Mac | 42.16 | 4.936 | 2.95 | 0.858
Roy | 42.72 | 5.368 | 2.89 | 0.935
Palutena | 43.19 | 3.968 | 2.75 | 0.759
Pac-Man | 44.84 | 4.955 | 2.58 | 1.029
Falco | 45.34 | 4.646 | 2.45 | 0.876
Bowser Jr. | 46.31 | 4.575 | 2.55 | 0.545
Wii Fit Trainer | 46.91 | 2.949 | 2.32 | 0.416
Kirby | 47.09 | 3.89 | 2.39 | 0.73
Dr. Mario | 47.31 | 5.086 | 2.24 | 0.724
King Dedede | 49.84 | 3.334 | 1.77 | 0.793
Zelda | 50.72 | 3.345 | 1.7 | 0.712
Ganondorf | 50.91 | 2.587 | 1.71 | 0.731
Jigglypuff | 53.91 | 1.121 | 1.13 | 0.097

For additional references, here is the full, raw voting data from all 45 of our voters, which was used to create the tier list.


Character | Ordered Score | Standard Deviation | Group Score | Group Standard Deviation | Difference from v2.0
Bayonetta | 2.0 | 1.35 | 7.94 | 0.227 | +10
Diddy Kong | 2.3 | 0.991 | 7.95 | 0.211 | -1
Cloud | 3.31 | 1.443 | 7.77 | 0.438 | -1
Sheik | 4.22 | 1.988 | 7.62 | 0.564 | -1
Sonic | 5.63 | 2.257 | 7.35 | 0.608 | +1
Mario | 6.59 | 1.936 | 7.25 | 0.614 | -1
Fox | 7.06 | 1.904 | 7.17 | 0.667 | ±0
Rosalina | 8.61 | 2.635 | 7.01 | 0.678 | -4
Mewtwo | 9.17 | 2.039 | 6.89 | 0.615 | +1
Marth | 9.73 | 2.822 | 6.81 | 0.662 | +9
Zero Suit Samus | 9.86 | 2.099 | 6.74 | 0.594 | -3
Ryu | 12.4 | 2.758 | 6.51 | 0.766 | -3
Corrin | 15.06 | 3.691 | 6.0 | 0.808 | +5
Meta Knight | 15.39 | 3.046 | 5.82 | 0.717 | -1
Pikachu | 17.67 | 4.67 | 5.83 | 0.734 | -3
Mega Man | 17.7 | 4.126 | 5.62 | 0.556 | -1
Villager | 18.2 | 3.22 | 5.66 | 0.609 | -3
Lucina | 18.78 | 5.992 | 5.67 | 0.841 | +18
Lucario | 20.23 | 5.581 | 5.4 | 0.741 | +3
Toon Link | 20.84 | 3.874 | 5.33 | 0.654 | -3
Peach | 22.79 | 4.303 | 5.14 | 0.791 | +5
Greninja | 23.52 | 4.657 | 5.08 | 0.569 | -1
Captain Falcon | 23.61 | 4.608 | 5.11 | 0.801 | -3
Ness | 24.82 | 5.534 | 4.95 | 0.748 | -8
Bowser | 25.0 | 5.46 | 4.87 | 0.807 | +7
Luigi | 25.69 | 5.669 | 4.86 | 0.846 | +3
Olimar | 25.82 | 7.005 | 4.76 | 1.01 | +4
Donkey Kong | 26.63 | 4.32 | 4.71 | 0.644 | -3
Yoshi | 28.26 | 4.968 | 4.6 | 0.891 | -6
Pit [Dark Pit]| 28.69 | 6.021 | 4.52 | 0.825 | -6 [-3]
Lucas | 30.12 | 4.659 | 4.35 | 0.814 | +1
R.O.B. | 30.34 | 4.799 | 4.28 | 0.949 | -5
Robin | 30.64 | 5.555 | 4.22 | 0.782 | -4
Ike | 35.04 | 4.111 | 3.68 | 0.812 | ±0
Wario | 36.77 | 5.097 | 3.62 | 1.004 | -2
Duck Hunt | 37.09 | 6.539 | 3.42 | 0.917 | +5
Shulk | 37.31 | 5.894 | 3.47 | 0.871 | +6
Link | 38.59 | 4.908 | 3.37 | 0.842 | +4
Mr. Game & Watch | 39.18 | 5.54 | 3.29 | 0.972 | -3
Samus | 40.3 | 5.563 | 2.94 | 1.135 | +4
Palutena | 40.64 | 4.971 | 2.94 | 0.837 | -2
Little Mac | 42.0 | 4.461 | 2.87 | 0.911 | -4
Roy | 42.59 | 5.43 | 2.86 | 0.979 | +6
Charizard | 42.87 | 5.45 | 2.84 | 0.994 | +6
Pac-Man | 44.39 | 5.608 | 2.66 | 1.048 | -8
Kirby | 44.51 | 4.777 | 2.65 | 0.989 | -6
Bowser Jr. | 45.51 | 5.31 | 2.5 | 1.094 | -1
Wii Fit Trainer | 45.61 | 4.496 | 2.4 | 0.821 | -3
Falco | 45.68 | 4.059 | 2.39 | 0.829 | -1
Dr. Mario | 47.09 | 4.542 | 2.26 | 0.839 | -3
King Dedede | 50.0 | 2.991 | 1.71 | 0.859 | ±0
Ganondorf | 51.67 | 2.364 | 1.46 | 0.655 | +3
Mii Gunner | 51.75 | 2.537 | 1.69 | 0.533 | -1
Zelda | 51.93 | 2.531 | 1.43 | 0.579 | ±0
Mii Brawler | 52.14 | 3.27 | 1.73 | 1.006 | -2
Mii Swordsman | 52.5 | 5.099 | 1.61 | 0.629 | ±0
Jigglypuff | 53.64 | 1.459 | 1.18 | 0.356 | ±0

Notable Characters

As the meta evolves, certain characters seem to become topics of debate and controversy. Here, we'll discuss some of those characters, as well as characters that saw large shifts on the Tier List as a whole.

:4corrin:
One of the characters with the most contention on the Tier List was the one sitting at the top of High Tier, Corrin. Despite having a standard deviation on the lower end of the scale, many called the placement into question, especially noting how their results seem a bit more paltry compared to others. That being said, Corrin has gotten some results (Cosmos, Frozen, Ryuga's multiple Top 24 placements at majors, along with YOC's results in Japan). While they may not have been spectacular as some of the other characters in the higher tiers, there is a noticeable element of consistency in how these players have placed in major events with Corrin, one that lends credibility to their status as a high tier.

:4lucina:
With the 4th highest standard deviation and the largest jump upwards, it is of little surprise that Lucina ended up being one of the most contested characters on the Tier List. At the time (and still a bit as of now), Lucina is a character that is very much based in ambiguity. Theoretically, she seems to stand at some distance from Marth (with some arguing that they are quite close to each other and others arguing for a gap of some size, usually 5-15 spots), with Lucina being applied in theory to scenarios where Marth would be inferior (with said instances being rather rare). Even with this ambiguity, many voters felt that she was indeed amongst the game's finest characters, especially in Japan (whose voting data had her and Marth apart by a single character, Corrin).

Despite representation growing from her and more Marth players using her on certain occasions, at the point in which work on Tier List V3 started, it was a bit of a different situation; however, that will likely change by the time Tier List V4 rolls around as she has seen more widespread use, especially with top players.

:4sonic:
Sonic found his way into the Top 5 in this Tier List. While that drew some people to question why he was placed here, a lot of it rides on the fact that regional opinions of Sonic differ greatly throughout the world. As indicated by the Japanese Voting Data (as well as the results of players like KEN or Komorikiri), Japan tends to view Sonic as a Top 3 character, sometimes even the best. Meanwhile, North American voting data just had him barely below Mario, and International Data as a whole had him at 5th. When all of the voting data was compiled together, he ended up sticking into the Top 5 position.

:4ryu:
When it comes to making a Tier List, there are occasionally characters that find themselves in rather odd gaps. This time around, Ryu fell victim to that. While he remained in Top Tier, he found himself at a sizable gap from both neighboring characters (Zero Suit Samus and Corrin). This was something that largely came down to an executive decision.

In regards to his ordered score, Ryu was a marginal distance between both characters (9.86 - 12.4 - 15.06, for Zero Suit Samus, Ryu and Corrin respectively). However, his group score had him slightly closer to Zero Suit Samus (6.74 - 6.51 - 6.0, for Zero Suit Samus, Ryu and Corrin respectively). In many cases, this would have likely led to a single character tier, but after some discussion, we decided to place Ryu into the bottom of A Tier, citing the closer group score to Zero Suit Samus. With Ryu's latest placements at Civil War, he seems rather poised to hold his position as a top tier for the time being.

:4ness:
Sitting at the top of mid tier is Ness, who suffered from the largest drop (and outright fell out of high tier). While Ness did enjoy a decent set of results in the time periods of v1.0 and v2.0, the time period of V3 wasn't the case, as FOW, considered by many to be the best Ness in the world, took a large break from the game for some time. In addition, NAKAT, for the most part, stopped using Ness in singles, favoring Fox instead. While FOW did return for 2GGT: ZeRo Saga and placed 17th, and S1 placed 5th at BEAST 7, there was still a long period of stagnation, one that resulted in Ness's large drop on V3. With FOW seeming to be back in the swing of things, it is possible to see Ness return to High Tier in Tier List V4.

Conclusion

We hope that these explanations and supplemental sets of data have clarified the release last month, as well as some of the more controversial bits of the list. With a new ruleset becoming the national standard in the US, the metagame is likely to see a shift (with Civil War already showing off what some characters can be capable of with the right conditions), and the viability of certain characters will likely change. As always, we'll be looking forward to your thoughts in the comments below.

Special thanks to @Shaya for providing Data, and @Popi and @A10theHero for assisting with the release of this followup.
 
Gunla

Comments

We can expect Link to shoot up in version 4, methinks.

Honestly, this isn't a bad list for the most part. I don't think version 4 is going to top this.
 
"There isn't anything in this meta worthy of being considered 'Bottom Tier'."

Except, you know, the very clearly delineated and marked bottom tier, filled to the brim with characters that Sakurai and co have failed time and time again.

Would be nice of you to treat your reader base as though they were at least as intelligent as you and not lie to them.
 
We're not gonna talk about Bayo's big 10 place jump to the number one spot? I can't deny she's a high to top tier character but I don't see a lot of top players rushing to switch over to her, at least not from who I've seen used at majors.
 
We're not gonna talk about Bayo's big 10 place jump to the number one spot? I can't deny she's a high to top tier character but I don't see a lot of top players rushing to switch over to her, at least not from who I've seen used at majors.
Not a lot of people rushed to switch to Sheik or Diddy when they were number one either. At best you'd see pocket Sheik and Clouds from people who weren't dedicated mains, and plenty of players like Mr. R, Dabuz and even Abadango now have pocket Bayonettas of their own.
 
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Sometimes I wonder if Rosalina's lack of representation may explain why she's ranked lower than before. PAC-MAN has apparently suffered himself, but calling him one of the worst characters feels like a long stretch when there are fighters who are struggling even more than him.
 
I'm glad some characters made their way up the tier list, too bad about bottom tier being dropped.
 
Not a lot of people rushed to switch to Sheik or Diddy when they were number one either. At best you'd see pocket Sheik and Clouds from people who weren't dedicated mains, and plenty of players like Mr. R, Dabuz and even Abadango now have pocket Bayonettas of their own.
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't know about the pockets but what you're saying definitely makes sense.
 
Hi guys! I haven't logged into this website for over a year. But your bizarre usage of 10th grade grammar is so laughable that I am exerting my time to altercate that you guys are pulling words out of your rectum. Case and point is the entire Lucina paragraph.

With the 4th highest standard deviation and the largest jump upwards, it is of little surprise that Lucina ended up being one of the most contested characters on the Tier List. At the time (and still a bit as of now), Lucina is a character that is very much based in ambiguity. Theoretically, she seems to stand at some distance from Marth (with some arguing that they are quite close to each other and others arguing for a gap of some size, usually 5-15 spots), with Lucina being applied in theory to scenarios where Marth would be inferior (with said instances being rather rare). Even with this ambiguity, many voters felt that she was indeed amongst the game's finest characters, especially in Japan (whose voting data had her and Marth apart by a single character, Corrin).

Theoretically, she seems to stand at some distance from Marth (with some arguing that they are quite close to each other and others arguing for a gap of some size, usually 5-15 spots), with Lucina being applied in theory to scenarios where Marth would be inferior (with said instances being rather rare).
Now my dear sir I ask:

WHAT
THE
****
DOES
THAT
MEAN

How about trying to actually write a comprehensive paragraph and leave your pretentiousness at home.
 
Right...now that :4lucina: is movin' up in the world (and I'm glad to have her aboard as one of my secondaries) can she be a part of the top tiers in the future?
 
Sometimes I wonder if Rosalina's lack of representation may explain why she's ranked lower than before. PAC-MAN has apparently suffered himself, but calling him one of the worst characters feels like a long stretch when there are fighters who are struggling even more than him.
Another reason for her placement i feel like is the fact that the few players that do play her up until recently haven't placed super well at major events. With Dabuz winning Civil War and Kirihara doing well for himself as well I feel like people will take a look at Rosalina's placement again, especially if Dabuz and Kirihara can place like this again at major events
 
Now my dear sir I ask:

WHAT
THE
****
DOES
THAT
MEAN

How about trying to actually write a comprehensive paragraph and leave your pretentiousness at home.
It means some people prefer Lucina's sword mechanics over Marth's in certain (rare) matchups.

Maybe it wasn't the most straightforward paragraph, but it wasn't the most confusing (or pretentious) thing I've ever read
 
Right...now that :4lucina: is movin' up in the world (and I'm glad to have her aboard as one of my secondaries) can she be a part of the top tiers in the future?
That may be debatable, since Marth does have his tipped hits, which can make KOs sooner than Lucina's balanced hits. I'm no competitive person though, so there might be something that I'm not seeing.
 
Is anyone else bothered by how much Cloud, Robin, Shulk, and Corrin look alike? Drop some of the anime characters next time, Nintendo. Keep Marth, Roy, and Ike I suppose. I can actually tell them apart based on the head shots.
 
Hi guys! I haven't logged into this website for over a year. But your bizarre usage of 10th grade grammar is so laughable that I am exerting my time to altercate that you guys are pulling words out of your rectum. Case and point is the entire Lucina paragraph.






Now my dear sir I ask:

WHAT
THE
****
DOES
THAT
MEAN

How about trying to actually write a comprehensive paragraph and leave your pretentiousness at home.
It makes complete sense my dude
 
I feel like the Japanese are idiots for thinking Kirby is bottom 3.

No offence to anyone who is Japanese.
 
I feel like the Japanese are idiots for thinking Kirby is bottom 3.

No offence to anyone who is Japanese.
Actually, I think that viewpoint isn't stupid, it's true that :4kirby: has okay match-ups versus high tiers such as :4fox:,:4zss:, and :4falcon:, but when you consider that :4jigglypuff: also does well versus :4falcon: and :4zss:, it's really not that special a feat. Then when you consider that his massive weakness of not being able to safely approach and how meager the results he gets are, I don't blame them at all for seeing him as not good when he has so little backing his name up. I wouldn't say he's bottom 3, but thinking that he's roughly on the same level as characters like Jigglypuff, Dedede and Ganondorf isn't that crazy and isn't a idiotic line of thought.
 
Actually, I think that viewpoint isn't stupid, it's true that :4kirby: has okay match-ups versus high tiers such as :4fox:,:4zss:, and :4falcon:, but when you consider that :4jigglypuff: also does well versus :4falcon: and :4zss:, it's really not that special a feat. Then when you consider that his massive weakness of not being able to safely approach and how meager the results he gets are, I don't blame them at all for seeing him as not good when he has so little backing his name up. I wouldn't say he's bottom 3, but thinking that he's roughly on the same level as characters like Jigglypuff, Dedede and Ganondorf isn't that crazy and isn't a idiotic line of thought.
It also doesn't help that Kirby's air speed is quite pitiful, and he only has one recovery move after all of his mid-air jumps are used up, which doesn't even give him much horizontal movement.

Whereas, for Meta Knight, because all four of his special moves also work as recovery moves, you could make his air speed as bad as Kirby's air speed, and he could still mix up his recovery moves to throw his opponents off-guard. Kirby can't do anything like that.
 
Sometimes I wonder if Rosalina's lack of representation may explain why she's ranked lower than before. PAC-MAN has apparently suffered himself, but calling him one of the worst characters feels like a long stretch when there are fighters who are struggling even more than him.
... But PAC-MAN does struggle a lot á la Ganondorf and Jigglypuff. I don't know why people still don't think he is bottom tier. He definitely is one of the worst characters in the game. He can't kill, can't grab, struggles a lot against range, has low damage output, has bad startup- and endlag, all his specials can be counterplayed by every character in the game and his recovery is easily exploitable. He suffers a lot from rage and shields & rolls too. There's more, but these are his biggest flaws.

I believe, just like Esam and Mr. R, that PAC-MAN is bottom 3. For me it's not hard to see, especially not after having maining him since release. Why everyone still think that PAC-MAN is not that bad is because of matchup inexperience and not enough knowledge about the character.

PAC-MAN is a sad character and I hope he will be fixed and buffed soon.
 
My only problem with this tier list is Lucas. Taiheta for the most part still places very high in Japan. There's so little representation for him everywhere else, people sleep on him.
A year or two from now i can see him only move up higher, possibly into B tier.
 
... But PAC-MAN does struggle a lot á la Ganondorf and Jigglypuff. I don't know why people still don't think he is bottom tier. He definitely is one of the worst characters in the game. He can't kill, can't grab, struggles a lot against range, has low damage output, has bad startup- and endlag, all his specials can be counterplayed by every character in the game and his recovery is easily exploitable. He suffers a lot from rage and shields & rolls too. There's more, but these are his biggest flaws.

I believe, just like Esam and Mr. R, that PAC-MAN is bottom 3. For me it's not hard to see, especially not after having maining him since release. Why everyone still think that PAC-MAN is not that bad is because of matchup inexperience and not enough knowledge about the character.

PAC-MAN is a sad character and I hope he will be fixed and buffed soon.
But... the combos? The setups? He has some very strong strengths in my opinion, definitely not bottom 3
 
My only problem with this tier list is Lucas. Taiheta for the most part still places very high in Japan. There's so little representation for him everywhere else, people sleep on him.
A year or two from now i can see him only move up higher, possibly into B tier.
Yeah I'm thinking pink fresh could do some good stuff with Lucas but I can't fault him for going with what works.
 
Yeah I'm thinking pink fresh could do some good stuff with Lucas but I can't fault him for going with what works.
Pink fresh was okay. Im not convinced he is an overall great player since his highlight as a pro has only been pre-patch bayonetta. His placements in majors seem largely the same now compared to when he only mained Lucas. There's also mekos and kodystri but they don't travel much.
 
D
I hope Bowser drops, but only slightly. 2nd best in Mid Tier is a bit too much.

I also hope DK stays relevant. I'd hate to see him drop to the point of becoming a nobody like Kirby (who also needs more representation).
 
I never thought I'd see Bowser above DK in a Smash game. I haven't payed much attention to the smash scene lately like I was though, but I am curious. Why is Bowser above DK now though?
 
I never thought I'd see Bowser above DK in a Smash game. I haven't payed much attention to the smash scene lately like I was though, but I am curious. Why is Bowser above DK now though?
In one word? Nairo.

He adopted Bowser as a secondary (pocket?) and started whooping ass, beating all the top players and making him look like an absolute terror. His pivot grab is almost as broken as Melee Marth's grab, leading good Bowser players to get very easy grabs that lead into devastating kill combos with bair and uair that are less percent-specific than DK's Ding Dong. They are very close, even though I think DK is a little better because of having better landing and neutral.
 
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