Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Aaron1997]

I guess low tier's don't exist to Leo. Marth going even with ?

 

[Game7a1]

I guess low tier's don't exist to Leo. Marth going even with ?

For G&W, KOSS and Songn might have convinced him (through the sets they have played) that it's even. Personally, I don't find it a bad MU for G&W (compared to previous games) because at least G&W can get in Marth's zone without getting pulverized like before. That's the gist of it, but I still think it's a slight advantage for Marth. As for ROB, I wonder if the set he had against Raffi-X was on his mind (close game 3 set).
That said, this MU chart reminds me of when Fuwa posted her MU chart for Marth. It was modest. No matchup was very dominating.

 

[Illusion.]

San Japan 2017 (103 entrants: San Antonio, Texas)

1st. SU | Megafox
2nd. GT | JBoss
3rd. SU | Hakii
4th. Magister
5th. TPwn | Dragonite
5th. MPH
7th. Crump
7th. Marshie

 

[Skeeter Mania]

As for ROB, I wonder if the set he had against Raffi-X was on his mind (close game 3 set).

I'm pretty sure he only used Cloud during that set (if you're referring to G4 where Raffi almost defeated him).

 

[Game7a1]

In comparison to Leo's MU chart, Pugwest made a Marth/Lucina MU chart. It's a lot more optimistic.

I'm pretty sure he only used Cloud during that set (if you're referring to G4 where Raffi almost defeated him).

Having vague memories of watching the periscope, but I thought he went Marth in that one set pre-top 8. If not, then disregard that comment.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Hey guys, later today Das Koopa will be making a post on reddit about OrionRank. Today I wanted to post the weighted averages we use to score players. This may give a better idea of a players consistency as well as how well characters may perform across the board. The lower the number, the better the average. The time period is between Post ZeRo Saga to Shine 2017.

This list is pretty cool, but it's quite biased for those who do not attend much. Doing well once and then not going to anything else accelerates yourself through the list immensely. As an example, Sonix went to 1 event (Shine) and got 25th, which made his average automatically higher than me who attended multiple nationals. This affects out of country players probably more than anything.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I know its been a hectic weekend as far as events go, but for Michigan the finale of our nearly year long circuit has finally come to a conclusion, with Zinoto decisively winning it all!

Crown Fight (111 entrants) (Livonia, MI)
1st) Zinoto
2nd) Rayquaza
3rd) EMG | Blacktwins
4th) Nero
5th) Gooshi | LOE1
5th) ????
7th) Mystearica
7th) Nom

Ozone's Duck Hunt notably got 9th once again, only losing to Rayquaza (1-2) and ???? (0-3). Happy to see he's showing all of Michigan the good pupper still has a lot of tricks left! All the sets are already uploaded, too, and can be watched here.

Edit: Cosmos was not in attendance at all due to sickness

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Let's also have Mr. E join the party!

 

[Nobie]

As a (very) loose general rule, I tend to put a bit more trust into matchup charts that don't just dump low tiers into the "advantage" section. I think there's a bad tendency for players to assume their top tier crushes everyone below a certain line.

Heck, you even see it with mid tier MU charts. "MY CHARACTER demolishes all of the low tiers, but the only thing keeping them out is... losing to all the top tiers." Some characters are worse than others, but it's rarely that simple.

I think one of the big influences on Leo's Marth chart is that, at the end of the day, Marth has a swordsman's frame data, i.e. slightly slower to compensate for improved range on normals. Palutena might have an 8-frame jab, but 8 compared to Marth's 5 is a way different beast than 8-frame vs 1-frame or 2-frame.

 

[|RK|]

I'm actually very surprised that both Leo and Pugwest put Kirby in 55-45 Marth. I totally agree with that FWIW, but I expected 6-4 or worse (like Mr. E's chart). While I don't know Leo's reasoning, Pugwest has experience with KIDGoggles's Kirby iirc, and Mr. E had MikeKirby (rip, the legend).

That said, their sections feel a little dense, especially after the wave of detailed sections following ZeRo's Diddy MU chart.

 

[Game7a1]

So I decided, with the three Marcina charts posted, to get an average of them to see how the chart would work. Sadly, I don't have Imgur, so I'm going to have to post it on the forum the old fashion way (trying to put an image through, say, Goggle Drive has mixed results). Keep in mind that the higher the number, the more advantageous it is for Marth and Lucina; the lower the number, the more disadvantageous it is for Marth and Lucina.

Spoiler: Averaged MUs

61.6666.... (thank Mr. E for this)
60.... Nothing
58.3333....
56.6666....
55
53.3333....
51.6666....
50
48.3333.... (thank Mr. E for this)
46.6666....
45
43.3333....
41.6666.... Nothing
40.... Nothing
38.3333.... (thank Mr. E for this)

A few things to note.

• Pugwest had the most optimistic opinion of Marth and Lucina's matchups. Leo's was the most negative (and most modest), and Mr. E was in between (but more extreme in some cases). This averaged MU chart is around that of Mr. E's average.
• Zelda, Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, and all those in 45 but Rosa were matchups where one person thought it was even but the other two thought Marth either won it (like with Zelda and Pac-Man) or lost it (the other characters) to varying degrees. Ryu is a special case where all 3 disagreed.
• Olimar is the only character where two people thought it was an even matchup but one Mr. E thought Marth loses.
• The only characters that all 3 came into 100% agreement are all those in 55 but Pac-Man, all those in 50 but Ryu, and Rosa.
• The characters that, for sure, do lose to Marth, according to all 3, are all those in 55 and above but Zelda.
• The characters that, for sure, do win against Marth, according to all 3, are Rosa, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Sheik, ZSS, and Diddy.
• As Mr. E said on Twitter, his opinions are.. interesting, to say the least.

 

[freeziebeatz]

This list is pretty cool, but it's quite biased for those who do not attend much. Doing well once and then not going to anything else accelerates yourself through the list immensely. As an example, Sonix went to 1 event (Shine) and got 25th, which made his average automatically higher than me who attended multiple nationals. This affects out of country players probably more than anything.

This has been the problem we're still trying to look into. Players who only attend Cat 2 and Cat 1 (even though those are the most weighted ones) get a boost for only going to regionals. But if these players attend one major/super major and bomb, they're average drops big time. I didn't want to change much in this yet just because these can drastically change by December. So hopefully by then a more refined system will be figured out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I guess low tier's don't exist to Leo. Marth going even with ?

Remember....it's all about how tools interact.

Just because a char goes even with a top tier doesn't mean that top tier isn't good or that low tier is not low tier.

 

[Das Koopa]

This list is pretty cool, but it's quite biased for those who do not attend much. Doing well once and then not going to anything else accelerates yourself through the list immensely. As an example, Sonix went to 1 event (Shine) and got 25th, which made his average automatically higher than me who attended multiple nationals. This affects out of country players probably more than anything.

This has been the problem we're still trying to look into. Players who only attend Cat 2 and Cat 1 (even though those are the most weighted ones) get a boost for only going to regionals. But if these players attend one major/super major and bomb, they're average drops big time. I didn't want to change much in this yet just because these can drastically change by December. So hopefully by then a more refined system will be figured out.

My solution is just to have a minimum attendance cap (that we can decide on later) and go forward with the "you need to attend tournies of multiple categories" thing both. That should straighten things out.

Some weird inconsistencies will still exist since a bunch of really good players have gotten 65th/49th but it should resolve the bulk of the grading system problems.

 

[Illuminose]

I guess low tier's don't exist to Leo.

the descriptor and the character icon are not compatible

i'll expand more if people who think that g&w is low tier explain why they think so

 

[Nu~]

the descriptor and the character icon are not compatible

i'll expand more if people who think that g&w is low tier explain why they think so

I dont think G&W is low tier but I'd still like to hear your thoughts on him

 

[Bowserboy3]

After seeing Leo's Marth MU chart, it makes me wonder what on earth top players actually think.

In one breath we see a Marth MU chart that is incredibly harsh on him and makes him look like a mid tier. And in another breath, we see MU charts for low tiers that are FAR too optimistic and make them look like top tiers.

Sometimes I wonder whether top players are secretly in a pact to just send the community into turmoil.

Anyway, the Marth MU chart... I'm not going to pick it all apart; it would take forever... but some notes

• Far too many characters Marth goes "even" with that he absolutely beats; Wii Fit and Pac Man suffer to the majority of Marth's moveset due to him outranging them, combined with his superior frame data. Zelda loses for the same reasons but worse, thanks to poor mobility options. On paper he also beats Yoshi, but I personally sway with this MU so I won't comment too much on it. Bowser Jr is another questionable one, when you consider his average landing options, and Marth's ability to punish bad landings and approaches with the majority of his kit. I also see no reason as to why Samus is even.
• Personal opinions time: I feel ZSS is even. Incredibly easy to combo and abuse. One of the characters that is easiest to KO with Dancing Blade. She can use her own speed and Zair to apply pressure of her own though, hence why I feel it's even. Marth doesn't exactly edgeguard her, but patient reactive play reaps rewards. Also would say Bayonetta is even, as Marth has all the tools to play ractionary to her and punish her. Countering recovery is a real thing, and IIRC there was a top Bayo who recently stated they thought Marth won the MU (debatable IMO, but notable in that they don't think it's a Marth loss).
• And while grapplers like Bowser and DK do quite well against Marth, I wouldn't say they're any more difficult than the likes of Diddy, Sheik etc. While miss-spacing a move might get you punished, Marth's ledge game is too good vs their big bodies and poor ledge options to sway it any worse. I personally think Bowser's placement on that list is a Leo problem. I don't think Marth outright wins vs Bowser; likely even or minor advantage to him. DK is similar but I could see him being a minor Marth advantage; countering his recovery is stupid (plus Pugwest also thinks it's a Marth advantage).
• Also glad he put Meta Knight at a minor disadvantage for Marth. I've been saying forever that that MU is tricky. That's a real tough MU; has more than enough buttons to contest him on the ground, doesn't get easily gimped by Marth, and in the same vein gives Marth trouble off stage. That's a real example of a character's tools making the MU hard.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm going to add that i'm surprised that according to the averaged out mu charts zard goes even with Marcina. Zard does have better range on his tilts and smashes, but Marcina has better frame data and can combo zard without issue allowing them to easily rack up damage.
Counter is dangerous to a zard using a smash though I will admit zard's flamethrower cancels it out and a well-timed rock smash can counter a dancing blade.
However it's marcinas aerial game that absolutely trashes zard. Marcina has much better aerials than zard does, better frame rate on those aerials, and the ability to juggle zard using those aerials. What does zard have? Rock smash? LOL no the fact that it kills all of zard's momentum makes it nonviable, not to mention marcina can abuse all of zards landing options.
+1 for marcina. I've faced a lot of good marcinas and know for a fact that they have easy options to answer for anything that zard might do plus they have setups on zard that zard just doesn't have.

 

[Yonder]

the descriptor and the character icon are not compatible

i'll expand more if people who think that g&w is low tier explain why they think so

I'll get the ball rolling and say he's not low tier be sure he had much better results, placing at more significant events like EVO a few times, and some other notable results from Koss, Regi, and Extra. His mobility (aerial and ground) and gimping/recovery give him that edge over the other low tiers who don't exactly have a combination of these. Everyone from F tier on lacks these fundamentals. Game and Watch has workable frame data, and just needs a touch more kill power to be low high tier honestly. He gets blown away so easily without the kill power like Mewtwo to compensate. But he weaves extremely well in the air too and can land ok. Don't forget that wicked U smash which is virtually Mario's in quality...on a character with similar mobility too so he can utilize it well.

 

[Das Koopa]

coming this week

-Phase 5/August Retrospective
-Weekend Update
-Phase 6 begins
-Updated USA region map
-OrionRank Late Summer 50-11 (10-1 on Monday, September 11th)
-Beginning to crosspost weekly updates to Reddit

 

[Bowserboy3]

One thing I forgot to add to my Marth MU's post about Bowser is that, looking at it from the Bowser top level player MU charts, they all think Bowser goes even with Marth, or has a minor advantage.

What I find incredibly interesting, however, is that Nakat recently released MU charts for his characters, including Lucina, and he listed Bowser as a disadvantage for Lucina (4:6).

When you use 4 characters however, I can see some MU's looking way worse for some characters; you're likely to have another character that bodies certain characters.

Though Lucina v Bowser is strange. On stage, Lucina arguably does better than Marth due to spacing being a little easier in general (in most MU's it's not as important but the threat of Bowser's grab is an issue in this MU). However, Marth's ledge game vs Bowser is far better than Lucina's. It's a good example of the characters still having the same end result in a MU (still somewhere even/minor disadvantaged), but they excel at different points of the MU.

I also think I remember briefly seeing Pugwest release a Marth MU chart because Leo did his. His is much better IMO.

I'll link both of these (Nakat Lucina and Pugwest Marth) when I get chance, but if anyone else manages to do so before...

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'll link both of these (Nakat Lucina and Pugwest Marth) when I get chance, but if anyone else manages to do so before...

I'm on it.

Pugwest:
https://twitter.com/Pugwest/status/904166736513126400

NAKAT:
https://twitter.com/CLGNAKAT_/status/904502904073027585

 

[TDK]

PAX has started with VoiD beating Captain Zack 3-2.

Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/paxarena

Leo vs Konga is next.

EDIT: Konga 3-1 MKLeo

 

[Das Koopa]

ignore this, posting reddit stuff tomorrow, PAX threw a gigantic wrench into things

 

[Game7a1]

VoiD 3-1 Larry Lurr
Most of the character counterpicks have not been working in this bracket.
EDIT Konga 3-1 ANTi

 

[RonNewcomb]

Not related, but since I view this thread as the only active one of Smash 4, I want to share this thread I just posted here and see if I can get some thoughts on it. I plan on throwing it into the respective forums of the smash games too.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...he-new-generation-from-fighter101-com.449827/

Regarding canceling sweep into hadoken, that pretty much invalidates Honda by itself.

Old games like ST and Melee have some clearly broken stuff in them, and mastering that stuff is hard even when you know it's there and how it's supposed to be done, but once you do you feel really rewarded for the achievement.

But that stuff is bad for character balance, bad for a meta. So newer games omit such stuff.

And so, older gamers dislike them. You can no longer sink a lot of time into a few difficult things to steamroll others who haven't put in the time to gain the knowledge or muscle memory.

Newer games sacrifice that kind of personal achievement for fairness.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Konga 3-1 Anti

 

[TDK]

Konga 3-1 ANTi

 

[JB333]

Zero 3-2 Salem

Nairo 3-2 Ally

Nairo with the reverse 3-0

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Old games like ST and Melee have some clearly broken stuff in them,

Sorry for being ignorant but what does ST stand for?

 

[Yonder]

Sorry for being ignorant but what does ST stand for?

Street fighter 2 Turbo I believe.

Meanwhile, at PAX, if someone still says Bowser/DK aren't high tier (especially DK) I'm gonna lose it.

Joking, lol. But I think they have more than proven themselves at this rate, and it's denial to say how much more heavies got indirectly buffed through rage (cept DDD) and how amazingly important kill confirms are in the game compared to any other smash. Having one and virtually nothing else almost confirms mid tier alone (has to be DK/Bowser kill confirm quality)

 

[TDK]

PAX Arena @ PAX West 2017 Invitational (12 Entrants) (Washington)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Nairo
3rd: Salem
4th: Ally
5th: VoiD
5th: Konga
7th: ANTi
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: MKLeo
9th: Captain Zack
11th: Tweek
11th: KOSSismoss

 

[The-Technique]

I think at this point Nairo's re-established himself as 2nd best in the world again. Feels like we're back in 2015.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Street fighter 2 Turbo I believe.

Meanwhile, at PAX, if someone still says Bowser/DK aren't high tier (especially DK) I'm gonna lose it.

Joking, lol. But I think they have more than proven themselves at this rate, and it's denial to say how much more heavies got indirectly buffed through rage (cept DDD) and how amazingly important kill confirms are in the game compared to any other smash. Having one and virtually nothing else almost confirms mid tier alone (has to be DK/Bowser kill confirm quality)

I always thought Street Fighter had the acronym SF, with each iteration adding an extra letter Street Fighter II Turbo should be acronymed SF2T to avoid confusion. In any case heavyweights are good with kill confirms then huh?

 

[Yonder]

I always thought Street Fighter had the acronym SF, with each iteration adding an extra letter Street Fighter II Turbo should be acronymed SF2T to avoid confusion. In any case heavyweights are good with kill confirms then huh?

They work the best as counterpicks/dedicated secondaries primarily which I feel still constitutes as high tier material, akin to the way Nairo uses Bowser. If you get counterpicked by Bowser/DK to Dreamland, you best be in major fear (or ZSS but that's another story). Just avoid using heavies in battles where you get horribly juggled or laddered like ZSS for example (did I mention ZSS is underrated?). I think heavies can hold their own against characters like Diddy, Cloud, for example quite well

 

[ARISTOS]

My predictions:

Salem > Larry
AIly > ANTi

VoiD > Zack
Konga > MKLeo

then

ZeRo > Salem
Nairo > Ally

Got all these right, time to buy stocks

 

[|RK|]

PGRv4 will take into account who you beat and *who you outplace*, NOT *where you finish*. Subtle but important distinction. @ThePGstats

— Andrew Nestico (@PracticalTAS) September 4, 2017

PGR note.

 

[Lord Dio]

it's denial to say how much more heavies got indirectly buffed through rage (cept DDD)

and except ganon ;(

PGRv4 will take into account who you beat and *who you outplace*, NOT *where you finish*. Subtle but important distinction. @ThePGstats

— Andrew Nestico (@PracticalTAS) September 4, 2017

PGR note.

so PAX is being counted on the PGR?
Also, since it never got answered, is PAX being counted for OrionRank? Das Koopa
Tbh, it just seems kinda stupid to include invitationals like PAX for rankings. Sure, you placed 11th, but guess what? You still outplaced the other members of the Top 50 who weren't invited. This especially infuriates me because on a points based system like Cloudhead, it basically gives free points to those invited, which doesn't seem fair at all to everyone else on the system who wasn't invited.
So yeah, I think that while they are a nice form of exhibition, counting invitationals when working on a ranking system is dumb.

 

[R3D3MON]

Not related, but since I view this thread as the only active one of Smash 4, I want to share this thread I just posted here and see if I can get some thoughts on it. I plan on throwing it into the respective forums of the smash games too.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...he-new-generation-from-fighter101-com.449827/

See this is what happens when you gear fighting games to low-level scrubs. I hope DBZ Fighterz gets it right...

 

[Das Koopa]

PAX will be a part of OrionRank, yes. Invitationals are usually fine and all attendees were qualified