Meta 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Discussion Thread

[Marc]

EVO hasn't exactly made things easier. The current metagame still heavily favours the known consistent top threats (Sheik, Mario, Diddy etc.) and character champions (Kamemushi, Ranai etc.). I didn't see much of Sonic and I believe there was no Cloud main in top 16, which is crazy to me despite already seeing some consistency issues with his design prior to the event. Although Trela placed a respectable 9th, Ryu didn't emerge as much as I'd expected either, so I'm going to make some serious alterations to reflect the current metagame rather than potential. When all is said and done, I might actually put Sheik as the best again.

 

[Thinkaman]

EVO hasn't exactly made things easier. The current metagame still heavily favours the known consistent top threats (Sheik, Mario, Diddy etc.) and character champions (Kamemushi, Ranai etc.). I didn't see much of Sonic and I believe there was no Cloud main in top 16, which is crazy to me despite already seeing some consistency issues with his design prior to the event. Although Trela placed a respectable 9th, Ryu didn't emerge as much as I'd expected either, so I'm going to make some serious alterations to reflect the current metagame rather than potential. When all is said and done, I might actually put Sheik as the best again.

After wrestling a lot with it, I came to the same conclusion regarding Sheik. We don't change our opinions for every single tourney, but when the debate is already this close and the new data is a tourney as big as EVO...

Sonic and Cloud actually had decent representation outside of top 16; I think they were the most used characters in the top 48. But, then they hit a giant wall of top players who could deal with their respective bullcrap, and we were left with a top 16 of 14 different characters, none of which were Cloud or Sonic.

They are both clearly fantastic characters regardless, but this is extremely interesting.

Edit: I lied, KEN got 13th.

 

[Player-1]

*Okay, super long post ahead, didn't mean to make it this long, but I just kept typing and typing*

As far as our common top tier characters, I don't think much has changed, at least for me. At the end of the day EVO is just 1 single tournament, not enough to dismiss all of the other nationals/regional tournaments that have happened. Mario is probably worth another look, but, again, as far as data goes I don't think this changed much among the top tiers (although I highly disagree with any of you putting Diddy in top 2, top 3 is a stretch for me). EVO was also by far the largest Smash 4 tournament with the highest amount of talent pool AND only the top 32 (?) were seeded, so some of the placements aren't exactly as accurate as they could be with a seeded bracket. There were still plenty of players that could have gotten top 8 that didn't even get into the top 32 so I definitely think looking at a bigger sample size than just top 16 is a good idea.

Something that I do think is worth a look are how the Japanese and US metagames compare to each other now that we have a tournament with a large pool of Japanese players with the US players. I think some of the more overlooked characters deserve to be looked at more closely, notably Villager, Pit/Dark Pit, and Mega Man. Ranai, Earth, and Kamemushi all had amazing results with these characters in Japan and the question on everybody's mind was how well would they perform in the US meta? Would these characters perform worse in the US than in Japan? Just for example, Scatt has always said the Sheik Mega Man MU is terrible for Mega Man and that the Japanese sheiks are much worse than the US sheiks so Kamemushi's wins over them didn't mean much, but we saw Kamemeushi defeat Mr. R's, Void's, and Zero's sheiks. Now that we have this data we can try to interpret it. How much of it is these character's being underrated and how much of it is the player just being really good? How much of it can it be attributed to MU inexperience on the US's part? Could they have just gotten a really good bracket for their character?

For me (tier list posted a few posts up), I think I may raise Villager some more. Since I play Villager he's probably the character I can offer the most insight on. I've always been a big advocate that Villager is overrated and that Ranai is just a god which I still think is true (which I may be a bit bias because I play Villager), but I'm starting to think his MU chart is better than those a few above him. His worst MU IMO is Mega Man (for reference, I used to live on a college campus with Scatt so I feel like I have a good understanding of the MU), pellets shut down a lot of villager's game and it's very hard to get in on Mega Man since Villager is very slow both on the ground and in the air. Lloid is beaten pretty solidly by pellets, crash bomber, and metal blade and it's very tough to score the kill on him unless you get him off stage, but getting stage control is probably the hardest thing to do in the MU. I personally say the MU is a hard counter at 65:35 or 70:30. I think the rest of Villager's MU chart is pretty solid outside of that.
Rosalina is probably the next worst, but nothing terrible or anything. I personally put the MU 60:40 in Rosa's favor. Cloud is also considered to be fairly bad, probably just as bad as Rosalina I'd say as another 60:40. I think most of the Villagers also agree Pit/Dpit is also losing to some degree as Earth has recently been beating Ranai (I think they've played 2-3 this year with Earth winning them all).
The rest is pretty debatable, but it gets more even after these chars being between 45:55 to 55:45 for most of the other high/top tiers. I do think Villager also struggles with some of the lower tiered chars, but it's really hard to say just because of how little we've seen the MU at top level play (for example, Regi also did very well against Ranai at the G3 crew battle GaW vs Villager).
So on my tier list, I may end up putting him higher than say Ness, but that might be more of Ness dropping down in my eyes than Villager moving up. I think Ness has an overall better MU spread against the rest of the high/top tier chars, but his MU vs Rosalina is probably worse than Villager's vs Mega Man and Rosalina is a much more common character to run into in tournament than Mega Man is.

For Mega Man I also have a good bit of insight on since I'm pretty close with Scatt. Mega Man's problem MUs are generally considered to be Sheik, Pikachu, Mario, and Fox (not that he doesn't lose other MUs, these are just generally considered his worst). Scatt has always said that Sheik is MM's worst, but seeing Kamemushi's performance at EVO is definitely making me think maybe not since he beat all our best sheik's (granted Mr R had 2 early SDs, and even Void SDed once, but a win a win). For those of you who don't know, Mega Man's jump squat is 4 frames long so he can get the footstool on frame 5 (I think? footstool is frame 1 right?), sheik's fair is -6 on shield so he can get his footstool combo on pretty much any of sheik's unspaced aerials (if spaced perfectly with some of her aerials then I don't think Mega Man can reach sheik fast enough to get the footstool). The footstool combos are something we haven't really seen any other Mega Man do (well really, there's only 2 relevant Mega Mans right now. Scatt has just started to implement the footstool stuff into his game, but not to the level of Kamemushi). But this is something that other Mega Mans should be doing it, it's something more tied the character being underdeveloped meaning the Sheik MU might not be as bad.
Scatt also "promises" that the Pikachu MU is also really bad. It's a very underdeveloped MU, I know Scatt has played Esam twice, but only the 2nd time was just at the beginning of when Scatt started to become a national thread back in November, so old result, but all there is to go on.
I know Scatt thinks Fox and Mario are step below those 2 MUs, but still losing.

Pit/Dark Pit are also still in a very weird position. Since Nairo has dropped Dark Pit in tournament I don't think there is really a single relevant Pit/Dark Pit besides Earth. The only other one that comes to mind is Kiraflax but his results just aren't there. Most people agree he is underrated in terms of his presence in tournaments. IMO he just seems to have a lot of very even MUs, he doesn't seem to lose to any character very hard and he doesn't really beat any (relevant) character hard either. He just seems to a very average above average character which makes it hard to place him accurately in comparison to the other high tier characters.

Back to my tier list I made, I could see all 3 of these characters moving up although I'm not entirely convinced on any of them. I think at most I'd put any of them at 14 or 15 for now.

 

[Luco]

There's a bit of a trend in our lists to rate Corrin above Thinkaman's data curve. Just interested in how people are feeling about them right now in the current meta or whether they're trying to project how they might be given some time?

 

[Marc]

I ended up rebuilding my list from scratch due to the amount of time that passed, EVO etc. Still change my mind a lot, but I feel like I can more or less defend most of my placements.

 

[Marcbri]

I'm thinking about dropping Cloud a bit, honestly the hype train this character has is injustified at top level. Cloud players aren't really showing up that their character is top 1/2 and most top players seem to have learned the MU and Cloud is punished very hard whenever he's caught out of position. I'm started to question many of the match-ups that he won like Diddy, Mario, Rosalina and Sonic. While they are probably even, I don't see Cloud having the edge agaisnt any of these characters. I feel Nietono showed up exactly how this MU has to be played destroying all cloud mains at Apex, with the character never being able to get back to neutral. People has stoppped jumping into him and started punishing his landings with grabs (or even pivot fsmashes.

Marc I'd argue that Bowser is much higher than that. Ye, he has a lot of trouble getting back to neutral/landing/getting out of the ledge. But as long as he's not put into that position the character is insanely strong. His speed, grab range and jab make for a solid neutral, but he's major strenght is his advantage game. His throws do ******** damage, but the major problem is his speed/pivot grab range/invincible Usmash. With all these tools he can keep the juggling going forever (aka, 3 or 4 grabs, since you are dead then). He can pretty much react to every landing option his opponent has and punish it brutally. An answer would be to retreat to the ledge but he's also very good at trapping the enemy character there. Fair covers all getup options, regular get up gets beaten by grab and you do not want to get grabbed, as you're as good as dead if that happens, Usmash is great and safe too, but you can just go for grab against any option but ledge jump, which if they do, they'll have to land after and your pivot grab will outrange almost any move in the game.

Lastly, jab and upb are pretty decent gtfo moves to get out of pressure, and if he somehow is able to return to neutral with rage, get ready to get killed at 60 from a grab.

The character atm has not a lot of representation, but it's top players are still getting pretty decent results taking some MUs that in theory were said to be impossible like Sheik, Rosa and ZSS. When it takes so little to kill someone, no match-up is unwinnable.

 

[Shaya]

Cloud likely loses to Diddy (fair opinion shared by @TSM ZeRo and possibly @Zinoto too/still?) . Rosa and Mario could be even, or leaning in their favour (*shock and horror* but they have consistent means of edge guarding and can keep pace in neutral, Rosa is still possibly Cloud advantage but not rn at top level). Sonic still seems a favourable match up.

Fludd is a really busted move.

Cloud seems like the most (or close to) overtuned character, but isn't inherently the best or near the best because of it. I don't think we should expect characters with at best half the meta development of the two monarchs (Sheik/Diddy) to keep up without showing up at the Sky house to be triple-best in the world-sheik'd for a week or two.
Interestingly, a spiral of hatred spread around the community towards him and his mains and I think that's scared people away from him, especially now there's a hurdle of counter match up knowledge that stops people just facerolling hurrr LCS durrr. No top level players are dropping their Diddy or Sheik for this guy, there's no notable match ups he does significantly better in (other than perhaps everything below high tier).
Tweek and M2K are inconsistent one way or another, M2K in particular being the main champion of the character but having the past month or two be constant drop outs for personal reasons. Our community is so tunnel visioned at this stage that we wouldn't be thinking so poorly of him assuming M2K were still (feasibly) breaking top 8 - AND APEX2016 had 3? Clouds in top 8 not too long ago, but people forget....

 

[Player-1]

I think Zero thinks the diddy MU is even or slightly cloud's favor. I know Zinoto also thinks Cloud beats Diddy as do I, but not by much, it's close to even, but I'd give a slight edge to Cloud personally.

 

[Gunla]

The voting period has been extended until August 8th to allow for more people to vote. You can still edit your vote until this date. After that, however, there will be no further delays.

 

[Gunla]

The voting period has been extended until August 8th to allow for more people to vote. You can still edit your vote until this date. After that, however, there will be no further delays.

If you have any updated votes in here (or votes that don't have posts in the voting thread), I advise you put them into your posts in the thread.

 

[Marc]

Cloud is still a top tier character, but he has some inherent inconsistent factors and just isn't winning tournaments while various other characters are. M2K is indeed dropping out a lot, but also hasn't won anything major when he wasn't, Tweek has had several disappointing performances in a row. Pocket picks tend to lose at top level as well. Personally I think Cloud loses to Diddy and Sheik at top level, though not to a point where he can't manage. I used to think he beat Rosalina and Mario, but those matchups seem at least even now.

Marcbri : I'll reconsider Bowser, though I have seen so little of him lately that it's hard to rate him. IMO he has major trouble landing, not the best of approaches and he also lost his hoo-hah. That said, I might move him up a tier after looking into him more as he was one of the harder decisions.

 

[M@v]

And here I thought I was about to come in with a super unpopular opinion and say Cloud is overrated. But it seems I'm not alone, yay. He hasn't been showing up in tournaments. Also, I can only see him going down. At this point, I feel he has 3 matchups that he loses for sure: Sheik, Pika, and Fox. That's a great mu spread. That being said, I think he's going to start having more mus he loses for sure. Matchups such as Marth, Lucina, Megaman, etc. Cloud's weakness of sucking at recovery has not been exploited enough yet. People are still too scared of that big sword, when they don't realize even trading with him off stage when he doesn't have limit can usually mean his stock. Those characters I listed (and others) can end him so quickly if they catch him off the stage. Honestly, one of the biggest things people praise him for, which is a good matchup vs Rosa, is a farce imo. He's 55:45 vs her, not this huge advantage bs people throw out there. Cloud is only 55:45 in it because he wins neutral and kills luma fast. Rosa can end him in one grab if she knows what to do (back throw-> fair true combo to get them off stage, then edgeguard).

In addition, he has fantastic range obviously, but his fastest move is frame 4. That's good, but not against some of the top tiers (Like Fox and Sheik) who have movesets loaded with frame 2 and 3 moves. If they get in, he's in trouble.

I'm making him sound like he's awful now right? Absolutely not. Its just he's not the top 5 god everyone thought he was. Limit break Cross Slash is still probably the best move in the entire game, and he still wins the majority of matchups. Even though I think he will wind up having more losing matchups as time goes on, I don't think he will have matchups worse than 4:6 where he will need a secondary. He should always be someone who can go through a tournament without any help. He may not be top 5, but he's more than capable of winning a national solo. Finally, although it doesn't affect a singles tier list, he's still a doubles god. Top 2 in doubles at the worst.

 

[Alphicans]

Raziek I'll ignore your top5 ryu placement for now and HAVE to question your decision to rate robin above toon link and megaman. I can't conceive of a way where a rational look at character potential and results leads to that conclusion.

 

[False]

That's mostly it. I'm pessimistic on and , and suspect their results are buoyed by an unusually dedicated player base that this style of character seems to cultivate in games.

I couldn't agree more with your general post, but Palu shouldn't be grouped together with Zelda IMO. I feel like TLTC and PrinceRamen gave me an idea of how much potential the character has. I don't think it's just because they're character specialists, either. I've tried breaking it down.

Palu has a grab into 50-50. The knockback on uair is actually insane. Invincible bair and dash attacks? Those cover aerial and grounded approaches. I would argue she has the best teleport in the game, with almost no lag even with hard landing. She does have poor frame data though, with her fastest grounded option being frame 8?? (excluding DA being frame 4)

 

[Luco]

Technically her grab is active on frame 7, but jab is the more useful tool and is frame 8 yeah.

She also has Fair true-combo into DA at mid percents. However, is the Dthrow followup still a 50-50 if they DI away at high percents?

 

[Shaya]

I think Zero thinks the diddy MU is even or slightly cloud's favor. I know Zinoto also thinks Cloud beats Diddy as do I, but not by much, it's close to even, but I'd give a slight edge to Cloud personally.

Post-Mexico Saga and at least up until after Evo ZeRo felt it was Diddy advantage, thanks to Zinoto's match up tips
Diddy's edge guarding on Cloud is very real (down smash and fair/bair are gdlk), confidence in handling Cloud's dair/nair skews how neutral looks as well.
ZeRo went something like 10-5 (maybe as good as 10-2?) against Komo while in Japan recently, hence Komo's 100% sonic use in their Evo set, 3-0'd M2K in their last tournament set too. Has open large money match threats to any Cloud player.


BUT
I think Cloud will bump back in the future: overwhelming power hits the masses, everyone qqs, counter play gets developed/nerfs happen, a month or so later the counter-counter play comes along and then we remember that Bayonetta is [likely] still a strong threat.
Until then I feel there's a tier gap between Cloud and the tippity top tiers (whom I personally don't know how many I'd consider existing at this point... between 0 and 3?).
He and Mario are very likely the best across most levels of play though. Although that's not really a common consideration.

 

[Raziek]

Raziek I'll ignore your top5 ryu placement for now and HAVE to question your decision to rate robin above toon link and megaman. I can't conceive of a way where a rational look at character potential and results leads to that conclusion.

My sorting within that tier was kind of haphazard. As I indicated, that was a first draft of the list. I plan to move Mega Man up, but I'm less sold on Toon Link, primarily because of Hyuga being the only real rep for the character. I'm aware that also basically applies for Robin, but I don't really think the difference between the two is very large, and Dath has gotten some very strong wins lately, even in hard matchups) (Anti, Nietono come to mind)

Ryu I'm still wrestling with. I'm unsure how much I want to weigh TheoryRyu vs. PracticeRyu. Some of Trela's performances make me believe in that top 5 spot, but then sometimes CEO happens. He's definitely got bad matchups, but the problem I run into is that if I move characters out of that tier for that reason, then this happens to my train of thought.

If I move Ryu down, I feel like I have to move Fox down.... If I do that I feel like I have to move Cloud and Mario down too. Then having Diddy and Sheik in their own tier feels wrong.

I could merge some of my second tier up (Sonic, Rosa, ZSS), and some down (M2, Bayo), but that just further bloats my mid tier and I feel like those characters are a cut below/above the respective tiers.

I'll ask you a question in return: Do you really think Cloud and Diddy belong in their own tier?

I think there's virtually no evidence to justify Cloud being a tier above Mario or Sheik. The results aren't there.

 

[Alphicans]

Hyuga isn't the only TL rep. Zan just top8 at KTAR saga, beating void on the way, and frequently does well there. There are also two TLs doing work in Japan too, having tournament wins when top players were in bracket.

I am editing my list tonight. I now believe Sheik is the best in the game, and will likely move cloud down a bunch

 

[Alphicans]

I'd like to mention that there have been a lot of top players posting their tier lists on twitter... Some of them iirc are in this backroom. We should look into contacting them and asking if it would be acceptable to add their lists to our votes. As of right now I don't think we have enough prestigious names to give the list the respect we want it to have.

 

[Shaya]

I wonder if it's a coincidence
You're right though, we need more than we have right now. Contact has been made with many.

I need to make a list myself, it's been a really long time since I've had to it feels, and I used to be well practiced with doing so. The game is just way too... balanced to the extent at which it just seems like a player's level matters significantly more than character, more so than any other smash game thus far (maybe not 64). I can't really theory and experience my way through this, it's tough.

 

[Shaya]

But oh, if there have been some players we've missed (we'll be posting provided ones before the end date hopefully) from posts on twitter, please let me (/us) know. It's not too difficult to get permission for inclusion in these cases.

 

[Espy Rose]

You guys convinced me to knock Cloud down a peg or two. Lack of results definitely doesn't help.
Also slightly altered my list after seeing EVO + a few other decently sized events. I didn't realize I had Mega Man as low as I had.

 

[Locuan]

For those that did not submit a text version of their tier lists, I took the liberty of transcribing the votes. Please verify that everything is in order~

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[Shaya]

FullMoon Mr. Game & Watch missing

Raziek Lucina missing

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I just see Cloud going down in terms of result as time moves on, I don't see much to change with him other than how other characters play against him. There is clearly a disparity in terms of results and potential he has.

It's the same thing as Ryu to me where people lab a lot with him on paper but then it might not hold up to what actually happens in game.

Ryu I see more potential if his players get better, Cloud I could see get better but I don't see that outside of doubles.

His results don't help and a lot of best in the game and such placements don't hold up with results. M2K I do think would get results with him if he didn't drop out of it a lot but yeah.

 

[FullMoon]

FullMoon Mr. Game & Watch missing

That mistake is not on me, Shaya =V

 

[Shaya]

Excellent.

 

[Shaya]

Anyway, here's TEASER CHEATER TIER LIST

This is using my old counting program which only cares about tiers, and not orders. I will be editing said program to cover the orders (everyone did orders this time, AWESOME), but that would be spoilers.

Char | mean | std | diff
Diddy Kong | 19.69 | 0.864 | 0.308
Cloud | 19.64 | 0.889 | 0.05
Sheik | 19.48 | 1.162 | 0.164
Rosalina | 19.16 | 1.37 | 0.319
Mario | 18.96 | 1.523 | 0.197
Fox | 18.71 | 1.443 | 0.251
Sonic | 18.26 | 1.482 | 0.45
Zero Suit Samus | 17.78 | 1.579 | 0.478
Ryu | 17.64 | 1.83 | 0.141
Mewtwo | 17.36 | 1.303 | 0.283
Bayonetta | 17.06 | 1.623 | 0.294
Pikachu | 15.51 | 1.797 | 1.552
Meta Knight | 15.26 | 1.793 | 0.251
Ness | 15.24 | 2.265 | 0.022
Villager | 15.03 | 1.573 | 0.208
Toon Link | 14.36 | 1.743 | 0.671
Mega Man | 14.27 | 1.699 | 0.088
Corrin | 14.11 | 2.279 | 0.166
Marth | 14.07 | 2.174 | 0.036
Greninja | 13.73 | 2.261 | 0.337
Captain Falcon | 13.57 | 1.774 | 0.159
Yoshi | 13.06 | 2.082 | 0.511
Lucario | 12.92 | 1.785 | 0.144
Donkey Kong | 12.83 | 1.876 | 0.089
R.O.B. | 12.34 | 2.113 | 0.493
Peach | 12.2 | 2.338 | 0.132
Pit | 12.19 | 2.009 | 0.009
Dark Pit | 12.19 | 2.009 | 0.0
Luigi | 11.99 | 2.228 | 0.208
Robin | 11.1 | 1.596 | 0.889
Olimar | 10.54 | 2.461 | 0.56
Wario | 10.41 | 1.811 | 0.13
Bowser | 10.22 | 2.165 | 0.182
Ike | 10.19 | 2.163 | 0.031
Lucina | 9.93 | 2.413 | 0.263
Lucas | 9.87 | 2.337 | 0.062
Kirby | 8.82 | 2.015 | 1.046
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.76 | 2.529 | 0.067
Little Mac | 8.72 | 2.365 | 0.032
Duck Hunt Dog | 8.31 | 2.42 | 0.41
Palutena | 8.18 | 2.303 | 0.133
Pac-Man | 8.16 | 2.189 | 0.019
Link | 7.68 | 2.549 | 0.482
Wii Fit Trainer | 7.37 | 2.007 | 0.308
Shulk | 7.21 | 2.155 | 0.162
Dr. Mario | 7.21 | 1.894 | 0.002
Samus | 7.06 | 2.516 | 0.145
Bowser Jr. | 6.94 | 1.917 | 0.127
Roy | 6.87 | 2.124 | 0.063
Falco | 6.44 | 1.824 | 0.432
King Dedede | 5.42 | 2.312 | 1.017
Charizard | 5.26 | 2.03 | 0.165
Mii Swordsman | 4.21 | 2.067 | 1.046
Mii Gunner | 4.13 | 1.887 | 0.085
Mii Brawler | 4.09 | 2.811 | 0.037
Zelda | 3.68 | 1.252 | 0.406
Ganondorf | 3.66 | 1.042 | 0.03
Jigglypuff | 3.23 | 0.881 | 0.424

Results with orders taken into account is, hilariously, unlikely to be too far different, but we'll see.

 

[Locuan]

I did some fixing. Added Seagull Joe's list since I missed it. I'm pleb.

 

[Shaya]

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10: ()*

*too few votes to be counted.

 

[Locuan]

Added the votes that came in yesterday.

 

[Vayseth]

Seeing the Japanese votes I submitted on accounts not run by Japanese players freaked me out a bit. Unfortunately I have much less of a response this time around but I feel like everyone over here is burned out by the amount of tournaments we've had recently. I apologize for the wait and for the low response but we got the majority of the top players to respond so that's good. Let me know if you need anything else.

 

[Shaya]

You could try to get that extra player or two to make a smashboards account, but other than that, thanks a lot for getting those votes in.
Make sure to pass on our gratitude to them as well.

If they're interested in seeing the particulars of data/etc, let me know.

 

[Gunla]

Thank you to everyone who voted. We will have results ready in a timely manner.

 

[Raziek]

Shaya : I revised some positions and added Lucina. Hopefully it's not TOO late to make changes.

 

[Shaya]

Well I've tallied things up, 56 votes.
Raziek may have been lucky.

Not a drastic difference between now and the previous spoiler tally I showed above. There are a few order swaps, and groupings shifted a bit around mid/low.

Going by the numbers we have for both orders and grouping, personally currently like the idea of 4 splits (High / Borderline / Middle / Lower), A-F tiers.
High: A (11)
Borderline: B (11)
Middle: C, D (14)
Lower: E, F (19 + Miis)

Possibly looking for a better term for "borderline", and possibly "Lower" rather than Low (as some sort of PC magic, and just the size of the grouping, 'Higher' doesn't make sense to me thoughyughh).

 

[Luco]

'Borderline' could be renamed as 'Undefined', 'Viable' (obviously in an ambiguous sense of the word), 'Strong', or you could even rename 'High' to 'Meta' and give that title to your current 'Borderline'.

 

[Dabuz]

Hold on a sec, I did update my tier list recently from what was posted on smashboards and what's reflected in the current tier list voting thread:

 

[Luco]

gonna convert that real quick:

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(Not included):

 

[M@v]

Also, Cloud loses to megaman too. And Marth/Lucina are probably even at best.