Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Illuminose]

it's sure not a great secondary if he's getting 2 stocked by Ranai on Lylat with it though

keep in mind that ranai's main practice partner is a cloud main

 

[TheGoodGuava]

it's sure not a great secondary if he's getting 2 stocked by Ranai on Lylat with it though

Not like his other "secondary" is any better

 

[ARISTOS]

M's performance was definitely great, getting 3rd in that bracket takes some serious skill.

It's an outlier for now but there's always a chance it could become a longer term trend.

 

[Rizen]

On the topic of Gluttony and , how good would you say this character is? He's definitely not low tier with a hidden trump card of waft (guess where it's hidden), his general mobility and survival ability. With that said he doesn't seem to have anything great going for him and loses hard to top tiers like Cloud. He's kind of like Ike and Pit, too good for people to make a fuss over his sporadic victories but not good enough to have much impact on the meta. Mid-tier limbo if you will.

 

[Deleted member]

M's performance was definitely great, getting 3rd in that bracket takes some serious skill.

It's an outlier for now but there's always a chance it could become a longer term trend.

it already has been a long term trend. to some extent.

 

[HoSmash4]

M was very impressive indeed but Mr.R exploited a few of M's habits (which I noticed myself whilst helping him warmup.) E.g. Repeated regular getups, air dodging out of strings (exposed by Ramin).

It's interesting how he doesn't utilise shield art at all but he has very nice conversions and some nice reads.

But I guess it will be up to M to travel more or get more opprtunities to play.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

On the topic of Gluttony and , how good would you say this character is? He's definitely not low tier with a hidden trump card of waft (guess where it's hidden), his general mobility and survival ability. With that said he doesn't seem to have anything great going for him and loses hard to top tiers like Cloud. He's kind of like Ike and Pit, too good for people to make a fuss over his sporadic victories but not good enough to have much impact on the meta. Mid-tier limbo if you will.

I feel Wario's largest issue not really talked about is his surprisingly difficult time taking stocks in many cases. His b-air and up-air were nerfed in power from Brawl and are not reliable kill options until really high percents. His forward and down smash have short range , laggy and leave him open to be punished. His Up-smash fairs a bit better, but its still nowhere near as effective as the plumber bros up-smash.

I mean when your best and most reliable kill option is often regarded as a move that takes close to 2 minutes to fully charge , and then has to charge all over again after its use. What does that actually say about your kill potential?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

On the topic of Gluttony and , how good would you say this character is? He's definitely not low tier with a hidden trump card of waft (guess where it's hidden), his general mobility and survival ability. With that said he doesn't seem to have anything great going for him and loses hard to top tiers like Cloud. He's kind of like Ike and Pit, too good for people to make a fuss over his sporadic victories but not good enough to have much impact on the meta. Mid-tier limbo if you will.

Bottom of mid tier probably more like top of low. He's got a ton of neat tricks and waft set ups. His air mobility is superb it's fun to drift around with him and take helps his already amazing recovery, he also survives for longer than expected. He's a pretty fun character to play with

 

[The-Technique]

it's sure not a great secondary if he's getting 2 stocked by Ranai on Lylat with it though

Hey, take it up with Mr. R, he already posted on this subject in this thread.

 

[williamsga555]

Wario also has a general problem with getting out-damaged by pretty much everyone relevant. Strong as he is, dude doesn't actually hit all that hard, for the most part. Couple that with his terrible reach and decent-at-best combo game, and you get a character that truly has to put a lot of work in to get the lead.

I mean, his disadvantage state and survivability are both pretty great, granted, given his weight+stature+mobility+recovery, but I can only imagine how difficult it is to actually maintain a lead when you have to win neutral so frequently without having an oppressive neutral to compensate.

If waft or bike were any weaker, there's no doubt in my mind he'd be a low tier. Not really a useful statement to make, to be honest, but hey.

 

[irokex13]

Aight, so one thing I don't understand is when people see a top player lose to ANOTHER TOP PLAYER and have the nerve to comment something like "Man, 'X' really isn't that good". It's very much possible to get 2 stocked by ZeRo/Ranai/Kirihara/Nairo/VoiD, hell, any top player and still be good yourself, especially considering that the vast majority of users that follow this thread would be lucky to even take a game off of them. Like, how ridiculous is your definition of good if you're calling Mr.R's Cloud bad? It seems like a lot of Smash 4 players have a very warped perspective of player skill and consistency.

 

[teddystalin]

it's sure not a great secondary if he's getting 2 stocked by Ranai on Lylat with it though

Fun fact: Ranai two-stocked Komo's Cloud on Lylat at G4. It seems to be his CP of choice for pretty much every MU.

 

[Das Koopa]

Aight, so one thing I don't understand is when people see a top player lose to ANOTHER TOP PLAYER and have the nerve to comment something like "Man, 'X' really isn't that good". It's very much possible to get 2 stocked by ZeRo/Ranai/Kirihara/Nairo/VoiD, hell, any top player and still be good yourself, especially considering that the vast majority of users that follow this thread would be lucky to even take a game off of them. Like, how ridiculous is your definition of good if you're calling Mr.R's Cloud bad? It seems like a lot of Smash 4 players have a very warped perspective of player skill and consistency.

I'm saying it's not that great of a Cloud in the context of actual top level Clouds. It's probably specialized to fight Rosalina/Dabuz (Mr. R commented that he had specifically trained with Kirihara for the matchup) and it clearly has a fall-off after that to the point where even Cloud players like Masashi can beat Ranai whereas Mr. R's MU advantage CP (on Lylat and with solid MU advantage) failed.

Essentially: It's not much better than a pocket and has shown to only be a narrowly effective secondary. I'm not calling Mr. R or his Cloud blanket-level "bad", I'm saying it's not a very good secondary for high level tournament play based on what we've seen of it. It really does feel like a pocket character; He's pulled it out for perceived advantageous MUs and it worked well against Dabuz's Rosalina. He likely pulled it out against Ranai because he knows the match-up is good for Cloud. I wouldn't mind a statement from him on it, of course, but after some thought, calling it a "pocket" feels entirely appropriate.

 

[Das Koopa]

Consider it this way: Harsh examination can lead to a faster and quicker understanding of the metagame and pointing out common trends early is reading the direction things go in. Calling something "not that great" or "bad" contextually is in reference to other top level things. E.g.: ZeRo's Cloud is bad compared to Tweek's, and the fact he couldn't beat Ally, somebody who is notorious for losing to Cloud, is a testament to this. Is ZeRo's Cloud bad in general? No, just bad in the context of the top level. What does that say about it? That it needs improvement if he's going to try that plan again, or a new backup plan is required.

This is the same with Mr. R's Cloud - albeit the application is different and the match-up against Rosalina is probably more in Cloud's favor than Cloud vs. Mario is. Mr. R has used it for a specialized purpose, hence it's a pocket, and "not that great" outside of its seemingly intended purpose.

People basically pointed this out in fewer and nicer words last year when pocket Clouds were failing horribly across the board. Everyone pointed this out, and me extrapolating on the concept further for one player using a Cloud in specific conditions (a pocket character, basically) isn't any different even if I'm being harsher. I never said "lol mr. r's cloud sux lololol 4Head LUL", either, I just snidely pointed out that it failed from a vantage point that should've been advantageous on paper. Ranai does have the best Cloud as his training partner, true - but Ranai has lost to far worse Clouds than komorikiri's before, including one mere days prior to Tokaigi (Masashi, for 33rd).

I do want to focus on this bit:

It's very much possible to get 2 stocked by ZeRo/Ranai/Kirihara/Nairo/VoiD, hell, any top player and still be good yourself, especially considering that the vast majority of users that follow this thread would be lucky to even take a game off of them. Like, how ridiculous is your definition of good if you're calling Mr.R's Cloud bad? It seems like a lot of Smash 4 players have a very warped perspective of player skill and consistency.

-Criticism is a necessity in being analytical. Coaching exists for a reason. Tafokints is not even remotely as good as Mang0 is, but Tafokints is extremely smart, analytical, helpful, and thus was signed on to be his couch. It's fair to point out that neither me nor anybody else in this thread is on that level, but the core concept of criticizing players from the sideline in a healthy manner (e.g. don't be twitch chat) is productive and helps move the meta along.

-It's not ridiculous to hold standard of "good" that is contextually comparable to the top level. People do this in literally every sport ever. We'd be sitting here all day with addendums to our posts going "Man ZeRo is so amazingly awesome and good". Yes, we know this, he's ZeRo. So if somebody points out a flaw in his gameplay, a bad habit, or bad character/stage choice, it's not inventing an unnecessarily high standard of "good".

If you want a real-life sports example, it's not unfair to say that the The Patriots/Falcons respectively played terribly in the first/second halves of the Superbowl. They could still roll most other teams, but in the context of the situation, they played poorly in those respective halves.

 

[Illuminose]

I'm saying it's not that great of a Cloud in the context of actual top level Clouds. It's probably specialized to fight Rosalina/Dabuz (Mr. R commented that he had specifically trained with Kirihara for the matchup) and it clearly has a fall-off after that to the point where even Cloud players like Masashi can beat Ranai whereas Mr. R's MU advantage CP (on Lylat and with solid MU advantage) failed.

Essentially: It's not much better than a pocket and has shown to only be a narrowly effective secondary. I'm not calling Mr. R or his Cloud blanket-level "bad", I'm saying it's not a very good secondary for high level tournament play based on what we've seen of it. It really does feel like a pocket character; He's pulled it out for perceived advantageous MUs and it worked well against Dabuz's Rosalina. He likely pulled it out against Ranai because he knows the match-up is good for Cloud. I wouldn't mind a statement from him on it, of course, but after some thought, calling it a "pocket" feels entirely appropriate.

you cherrypicked one example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXOKN0iaRZM - mr r's cloud helping him beat ally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuRV5frnZks - mr r's cloud helping him beat ally (another set, same tournament)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTrSoPFT0yo - mr r's cloud beating sodrek

mr r also won (though it's online) the key to the pg house qualifier playing almost exclusively cloud, including a win over cyve and other solid european players

his cloud has also beaten s1 and meru and obviously has the main accomplishment of reverse 3-0ing dabuz when he pulled it out at big house

mr r's cloud is a practiced secondary that has clearly accomplished good things for him. calling it a pocket is outright insulting and also incorrect.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXOKN0iaRZM - mr r's cloud helping him beat ally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuRV5frnZks - mr r's cloud helping him beat ally (another set, same tournament)

He closed both sets out with Sheik because Ally had seemingly figured his Cloud out by game 4 both sets, with the added factor of Ally dropping an entire game by wasting one on using a poorly tuned Marth. (I think people can agree that Ally's Marth looked mediocre there? I hope?)

It's not a poor performance on his part but it still feels like a situational pocket - he knows that Ally has had Cloud trouble in the past, attempts to exploit it, succeeds to some extent (takes 3 games from Ally's Mario between the sets) but it still forced to respect Ally's Cloud exp and go for the Sheik to close out both sets.

It'd make more of a statement if Mr. R hadn't solidly lost his closing games with Cloud during both of those sets. But Ally nearly two stocked him in Losers' Finals game 4 and had a solid victory in game 4 of Winners Semis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTrSoPFT0yo - mr r's cloud beating sodrek

mr r also won (though it's online) the key to the pg house qualifier playing almost exclusively cloud, including a win over cyve and other solid european players

his cloud has also beaten s1 and meru and obviously has the main accomplishment of reverse 3-0ing dabuz when he pulled it out at big house

While I did forget SDW, I didn't forget his EU Cloud usage: Mr. R is so vastly above everybody in the EU that he can pretty much use whatever tuned secondary he wants. He's never, ever lost an EU tourney to EU players during Smash 4 history as far as I'm aware (juddy has noted this, and I'm not sure how many sets he's lost to EU players - not many, that much I do know), so I don't think his set record against EU players is indicative of how good his Cloud is at the top level.

mr r's cloud is a practiced secondary that has clearly accomplished good things for him. calling it a pocket is outright insulting and also incorrect.

He uses Cloud semi-frequently in the EU (where he's distantly better than everybody else) and has pulled it out against players who use characters that are generally agreed to have a notably bad MU against Cloud. It's not insulting to refer to it as a pocket when he very rarely uses Cloud in the US/JP and when he does it's against MUs that Cloud wins.

M was very impressive indeed but Mr.R exploited a few of M's habits (which I noticed myself whilst helping him warmup.) E.g. Repeated regular getups, air dodging out of strings (exposed by Ramin).

It's interesting how he doesn't utilise shield art at all but he has very nice conversions and some nice reads.

But I guess it will be up to M to travel more or get more opprtunities to play.

Thing worth noting: It seemed like M used Shield Art quite a bit against iStudying. Is the main concern that Sheik would be able to string easier with M using Shield Art more often due to the poor mobility on top of the huge frame data gap?

 

[Deleted member]

Das Koopa

He probably used Shield more vs. Dennis because Greninja has more threatening kill power than Sheik, is my guess.

 

[Illuminose]

Das Koopa just because you think his cloud isn't that good for whatever dumb reason doesn't change anything

mr r counterpicks cloud in matchups he wants to use the character (aka, what most secondaries are for). he practices the character a good amount and has enough sets with it in tournament that you can't just say he pulled it out once and that's it. he himself considers cloud his top secondary, which is the most important point here. you are definitely wrong here.

 

[Das Koopa]

Das Koopa just because you think his cloud isn't that good for whatever dumb reason doesn't change anything

this doesn't refute anything i said

you're just re-asserting a claim without substance after I've responded to it and boy do I hate that

mr r counterpicks cloud in matchups he wants to use the character (aka, what most secondaries are for). he practices the character a good amount and has enough sets with it in tournament that you can't just say he pulled it out once and that's it. he himself considers cloud his top secondary, which is the most important point here. you are definitely wrong here.

I've never claimed he pulled it out once. I've claimed that it hasn't demonstrated great success and mimics more of a pocket in that regard. He does not need Cloud to dominate Europe - it's effectively a training ground for his non-Sheik characters when he uses them. If he believes his Cloud to be a secondary, that's fair, but I can't help but point that he's he's pulled it out at the top level against players who use characters that have pretty bad Cloud MUs.

So, here: It's a secondary, but it's not an especially successful one. He isn't using Cloud in EU out of a necessity, and he's used it against a few top players with narrow but ultimate success against Dabuz while failing badly vs. Ranai, being forced back to Sheik on two separate occasions by Ally, and failing marginally against ANTi.

having said all of this, i would like for Mr. R to provide some commentary on his Cloud, and how he intends to use it in the future - because I think him using a secondary is a good idea, and I wonder if when he goes to Japan if he intends on grinding out more MUs with it.

 

[Lord Dio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OirDaXLhiI

Hyper takes a set from Fatality with Solo Roy.

How can someone be so good without owning a Wii U? (Hyper doesn't own a Wii U)

Playing wiht ds smash, hard as it is, can help. I'd even go so far as to say that playing melee and/or Brawl for the basics can help. Iirc, doesn't Scatt soemtimes use the Wiimote for matches?
Props to Hyper.

Chubu Round Robin Invitational

1st: SH (8-1)
2nd: Sigma (7-2)
3rd: Earth (6-3)
4th: ikep (5-4)
5th: Masha (5-4)
6th: DIO (4-5)
7th: NGA (4-5)
8th: NAI (3-6)
9th: Fuwa (3-6)
10th: Tsu~ (0-9)

>sees Lucinas next to marth with Fuwa.
Yet another recent tournament where people are pulling out lucina and doing well. Interesting. I find it interesting how people say marth is absolutely better, he's two tiers higher on the tier list, and has much more notable placings at a lot more tournaments, yet it feels like ever since Abadango Saga when Nairo pulled her out, Lucina's been climbing the recognition ladder. Fuwa and I think the previous page showed Pugwest used her at least a bit, Kogarasuma making waves, NAKAT pulling her out at G4......It awes me how fast she's been turning heads and gaining people's attention.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Izawsmash/status/833283369538551808

I don't think IzAw's done just yet. From the sounds of it, he's using Marth/Link in tournaments.

 

[Mr-R]

this doesn't refute anything i said

you're just re-asserting a claim without substance after I've responded to it and boy do I hate that



I've never claimed he pulled it out once. I've claimed that it hasn't demonstrated great success and mimics more of a pocket in that regard. He does not need Cloud to dominate Europe - it's effectively a training ground for his non-Sheik characters when he uses them. If he believes his Cloud to be a secondary, that's fair, but I can't help but point that he's he's pulled it out at the top level against players who use characters that have pretty bad Cloud MUs.

So, here: It's a secondary, but it's not an especially successful one. He isn't using Cloud in EU out of a necessity, and he's used it against a few top players with narrow but ultimate success against Dabuz while failing badly vs. Ranai, being forced back to Sheik on two separate occasions by Ally, and failing marginally against ANTi.

having said all of this, i would like for Mr. R to provide some commentary on his Cloud, and how he intends to use it in the future - because I think him using a secondary is a good idea, and I wonder if when he goes to Japan if he intends on grinding out more MUs with it.

I'm saying it's not that great of a Cloud in the context of actual top level Clouds. It's probably specialized to fight Rosalina/Dabuz (Mr. R commented that he had specifically trained with Kirihara for the matchup) and it clearly has a fall-off after that to the point where even Cloud players like Masashi can beat Ranai whereas Mr. R's MU advantage CP (on Lylat and with solid MU advantage) failed.

Essentially: It's not much better than a pocket and has shown to only be a narrowly effective secondary. I'm not calling Mr. R or his Cloud blanket-level "bad", I'm saying it's not a very good secondary for high level tournament play based on what we've seen of it. It really does feel like a pocket character; He's pulled it out for perceived advantageous MUs and it worked well against Dabuz's Rosalina. He likely pulled it out against Ranai because he knows the match-up is good for Cloud. I wouldn't mind a statement from him on it, of course, but after some thought, calling it a "pocket" feels entirely appropriate.

I did get 2 stocked by Ranai on Lylat ( his cp ) but didn't the same happen to Komo at genesis? I still went 1-1 vs Ranai with Cloud and he is a god at that MU because of Komo

It blows my mind how people still call my Cloud a pocket when

-he's litterally my 2nd most played character
-I beat dabuz' rosa and oli
-it helped me beat ally in 2 sets, yeah he was starting to adapt but that doesnt change the fact that cloud helped me win 2 sets over him
-beat Sodrek/S1
-went 1-1 with Ranai

That being said I dont think my cloud is better than the top clouds and it still def needs a lot of work, but calling it a "pocket" at this point is just insulting and disrespectful.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He's definitely not low tier with a hidden trump card of waft (guess where it's hidden), his general mobility and survival ability.

Wario's actually just that.

 

[Bjurrse]

Honestly, do we have a clear line of what constitutes as a pocket and what is a secondary? Does it matter? In my book it's more of a pocket if you use your main more than 90% of the time etc. Why bother with these vague definitions?

Some players ptactices their pockets more than some practices their "secondaries".

Just let the player decide what they feel is right.

Regarding M; it was a real good showing, but as mentioned earlier, the top tier matchups looks really rough.

Cyve showed how disgusting banana is. And played well versus Mr.R who i feel is on another level. Diddy is nuts imho.

 

[Tizio Random]

I know this discussion returns sometimes and can be irritating but can we talk about Ness for a moment?

The way S1 uses the characters is absurd and his movement is godlike, one of the best I've seen, aside from top players like VoiD and MKLeo who are miles ahead in that department. Dair A-landings and PSI Magnet to stall momentum were incredibly nice, he used practically all of Ness' moves. I was really impressed, considering that one of Ness' weaknesses is his lackluster mobility, having options to mix-up and commit less is key to success.
Also, I know this was said like a billion time, but you can't ever consider Ness out of the game until his stock is gone. His kill options paired with his hitboxes (nair and uair are absurd holy moly) makes him so terrifying. Backthrow is mitigated from his not-great grab range but, still, he has ways to get that grab and can kill you at 90%. Also, PK Thunder edgeguards and shenanigans are great, the sheer quantity of possibilities it gives is to not underestimate.

Yeah, Ness fell from grace, considering he was believed to be top tier material, but still, I think way too many people sleep on this character because of his match-up spread alone. I can see him returning as a solid high tier (like and, to some extent, ) once his players figure out how to really abuse all of his options in the future.

 

[K~SAN]

That's the curse of going against the grain. If you do well with a character people think isn't supposed to be good, they look for any reason to write it off.

I wish I knew a way to get them to not dismiss this kind of thing, because this is a big deal that should be treated as such. Goes to show than in Smash 4, even the (seemingly) more lackluster characters still have some useful tools.

I've been saying this forever... its how skilled a player is and not just the character he uses. People I know discredit Top Players all the time because most of them use Top Tier Characters. But in reality there is more to it than just the Character they use.

I know this one guy who cries and moans all the time for nerfs and buffs... especially buffs fore Samus because he mains Samus. But the guy has only been to like one tournament and has never made it out of pools. The most hilarious thing is that most of his experience is on For Glory!

People like him is ruining the scene where they cry for balances changes but know absolutely nothing about the game.
But yet in a recent video I just watched on 2GG we saw Afro Smash [Samus] solidly beat Nick Riddle [ZSS]

Great example of Low Tier doing very well against Top Tier
Before that MKLeo taking Genesis with Marth

People who are crying about their character should maybe go back to the Lab and think whether its the lack of skill or really the character

Edit: Just realized the Afro Smash Match against Nick Riddle was at Genesis lol.. it was a recent upload

 

[L9999]

I've been saying this forever... its how skilled a player is and not just the character he uses. People I know discredit Top Players all the time because most of them use Top Tier Characters. But in reality there is more to it than just the Character they use.

I know this one guy who cries and moans all the time for nerfs and buffs... especially buffs fore Samus because he mains Samus. But the guy has only been to like one tournament and has never made it out of pools. The most hilarious thing is that most of his experience is on For Glory!

People like him is ruining the scene where they cry for balances changes but know absolutely nothing about the game.
But yet in a recent video I just watched on 2GG we saw Afro Smash [Samus] solidly beat Nick Riddle [ZSS]

Great example of Low Tier doing very well against Top Tier
Before that MKLeo taking Genesis with Marth

People who are crying about their character should maybe go back to the Lab and think whether its the lack of skill or really the character

Edit: Just realized the Afro Smash Match against Nick Riddle was at Genesis lol.. it was a recent upload

By the time MK Leo won ZeRo Saga he already made waves and before him Mr E. Btw, MK Leo won Genesis almost 100% Cloud.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'll do my best.
Serge (Mexico)
Tosshi/Hitomoshi (Japan)
Sharpy (Dominican Republic)
Chuck Nasty (Central/South US)
Bloodcross (Florida/Massachusetts, somewhat inactive)
Drayquaza (Nevada)
LoF | Blue (New Jersey)
Silentdoom (United Kingdom)
Fire (France)
Chaoszard (New Hampshire)
ANTi (New York)


In short, tricky/weird movement compared to other characters, easily rusted after a session or two without playing him, can be difficult to kill with unless you're on point, wonky up B input, etc. Pretty much that he doesn't leave much room for mistakes and needs to be kept fresh. Kinda similar to Sheik in that sense but slightly less forgiving.

You missed Linus. He's a high schooler in Michigan that can't go out to stuff cuz parents (honestly why I got into playing late).

 

[FeelMeUp]

what, exactly, is so offensive about having one of the characters you don't main get called a pocket?
genuinely curious as to where this negative stigma comes from.

 

[Zelder]

what, exactly, is so offensive about having one of the characters you don't main get called a pocket?
genuinely curious as to where this negative stigma comes from.

I mean it's not hard to imagine why someone might bristle at being accused of having a pocket Cloud - they playerbase generally doesn't think highly of the person who gets dragged with their main, then switches to Cloud to close out the set.

This is not me weighing in on the Great Pocket Cloud Debate of 2017, btw.

 

[FeelMeUp]

then cloud should be the most well-known matchup in all levels of play and there's no reason to complain about people off-playing someone that isn't even best in the game.
if anything, being able to take sets off of the best players in the world with a character that isn't a main should be a testament to your individual skill. having people call that same Cloud, which took games/sets off of multiple top 10 players, a pocket....should be seen as a compliment, imo.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/SSBWorld/status/833526501572214784

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's insulting because you put a lot of time in and then people effectively call it a pocket pick. The definition of a pocket character is one you don't put a lot of time into but have in your pocket, lol. It's not a matter of who he's beaten or who he hasn't, it's a matter of having your practice/work marginalized into "oh he's just a pocket pick", really =P. At least, that's how I see it.

I'm upset that Mr. R had to come in here not once but TWICE to say this. Goodness.

 

[InfinitySoul]

https://twitter.com/SSBWorld/status/833526501572214784

Life of a clone made by pure lazyness...


To me a secondary is just a [slight] worst main as you put less time into it.
Where a pocket is just here for very precise match up. And your pocket vs any char that is not in your counter list is a free loss.

 

[Lord Dio]

Just realized the Afro Smash Match against Nick Riddle was at Genesis lol.. it was a recent upload

More g4 videos finally got uploaded? Nice.

It's insulting because you put a lot of time in and then people effectively call it a pocket pick. The definition of a pocket character is one you don't put a lot of time into but have in your pocket, lol..

Isn't that basically defining a character that you can play casually? Is there a difference in that you'd actually be willing to pull out a pocket at a tournament, but you wouldn't do the same with a casual character? Because it sounds like you're describing characters people play casually, like playing FG Randoms except it's not actually random....you know the character and can play them somewhat decently, but you likely would only use one of them in tournament if you're desperate. Because if that's the cae some people, like myself, would have over a dozen pocket characters.

Tbh, it seems like with each passing day it gets harder to tell what level of play a player uses a characters. You have mains, dual mains, pockets, secondaries, tertiaries, casual characters, etc. It's becoming increasingly hard to tell the difference between some of those with certain characters. For example, dabuz and olimar. Before he said that he was dual maining rosaluma and olimar, it was unclear whether olimar was a pocket or secondary (at least, it was for me).
Point is, we're creating too many levels of play for a character, and in doing so making it harder to know what level someone plays a character at.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

That may be but Mr. R stated (TWICE!) that his Cloud is secondary, he put a lot of time into it, and that he didn't like that people kept calling his secondary a pocket. Are we really going to argue vague definitions at this point when the player SPECIFICALLY STATED what category that character fell under?

 

[|RK|]

https://twitter.com/SSBWorld/status/833526501572214784

Dark Pit is the worst character in the game by results Kappa

At least we don't adhere to results *that* heavily. I'm actually glad that more people are seeing Lucina - for example - as having moved up despite the fact she doesn't actually have many results.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Pre-Sheik nerf ZeRo's Diddy functioned more like a pocket. iirc he only used it for 2 matchups while using Sheik for everything else.
Dabuz's Olimar situation before a few months ago seemed like a secondary. Any time Rosa failed he immediately went over to it. Now Rosa seems to be the "pocket," as he specifically said he's only using her for 2-3 matchups.
So if you're only using a character for a handful of matchups in our cast of ~55, they're probably just a pocket. If you can use them in many many more and reliably fall back on them when you're in doubt(MKLeo's Cloud, for example) they're probably a secondary.
But I'm of the opinion that you can only have one main and one secondary by definition. Pockets are everything else.

 

[KenMeister]

I did get 2 stocked by Ranai on Lylat ( his cp ) but didn't the same happen to Komo at genesis? I still went 1-1 vs Ranai with Cloud and he is a god at that MU because of Komo

It blows my mind how people still call my Cloud a pocket when

-he's litterally my 2nd most played character
-I beat dabuz' rosa and oli
-it helped me beat ally in 2 sets, yeah he was starting to adapt but that doesnt change the fact that cloud helped me win 2 sets over him
-beat Sodrek/S1
-went 1-1 with Ranai

That being said I dont think my cloud is better than the top clouds and it still def needs a lot of work, but calling it a "pocket" at this point is just insulting and disrespectful.

So in other words, everyone gather around and give Das Koopa the middle finger for being a disrespectful ****.

 

[ARISTOS]

So in other words, everyone gather around and give Das Koopa the middle finger for being a disrespectful ****.

Nah Das Koopa is the homie