Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[L9999]

Could you elaborate what you're trying to say about T's Link?

My understanding is you're saying You3 hasn't made DH look like less of a gimmick like what T did for Link, but I don't think that's quite correct, is it?

There was a lot of hype for T because the guy did very good in Japan, but when he came to America he blew it. And I was one in the hype train for Link, so yeah, I label it is a gimmick because I'm salty, but T is very good regardless.

 

[TDK]

There was a lot of hype for T because the guy did very good in Japan, but when he came to America he blew it. And I was one in the hype train for Link, so yeah, I label it is a gimmick because I'm salty, but T is very good regardless.

T hasn't been to america yet. His debut is at frostbite 2017, same with Shuton. Are you thinking of someone like HIKARU or Kirihara?

EDIT: To clarify, HIKARU and Kirihara have been to one american tournament and didn't make it into top 32. It was EVO, though, and HIKARU had a win on Falln, so it's not the worst, but it wasn't the placement people were expecting from them.

 

[MistressRemilia]

T hasn't been to america yet. His debut is at frostbite 2017, same with Shuton. Are you thinking of someone like HIKARU or Kirihara?

EDIT: To clarify, HIKARU and Kirihara have been to one american tournament and didn't make it into top 32.

You could mention that this tournament was EVO, that wouldn't make the whole thing sound so bad.
HIKARU more specifically had a fairly reasonable placement, 33rd with a win on Falln.

 

[Ulevo]

You need to know the exact percents. I have games that I have won versus Bowser because I was grabbed with 76% and they did not have time to pummel. Estimates are going to cost you.

 

[L9999]

T hasn't been to america yet. His debut is at frostbite 2017, same with Shuton. Are you thinking of someone like HIKARU or Kirihara?

EDIT: To clarify, HIKARU and Kirihara have been to one american tournament and didn't make it into top 32. It was EVO, though, and HIKARU had a win on Falln, so it's not the worst, but it wasn't the placement people were expecting from them.

I checked and yeah, I got mixed up.

 

[teddystalin]

He's been getting 25th or 3th, sometimes 17th at most of the japanese tours he went/goes/probably will go to.
The player has never been consistent, so it is normal that believe would expect more from the Duck Hunt trio of player, which are fairly conssitent threats that often end up getting Top 16 in a majority of tournament they go to.

I don't think this is a particularly accurate assessment at all.

Placements from Umebura SAT on:*
*=Props to the wiki for actually being updated with Japanese tournaments so I didn't have to go through a bunch of brackets

T: 9th, 2nd, 33rd, 49th, 1st, 33rd, 4th, 33rd, 25th, 13th
Average: 16.5

Raito: 65th, 5th, 33rd, 25th, 17th, 5th, 13th, 7th, 33rd, 2nd
Average: 20.5

You3: 49th, 13th, 25th, 49th, 5th, 2nd
Average: 23.83

Brood: 65th, 9th, 33rd, 17th, 17th
Average: 25.6

If we remove their worst placements (for the dogs: the biggest Japanese major; for T: a smaller university tournament):

Raito: 15.5
T: 17
Brood: 17.8
You3: 18.8

It's a pretty closely bunched group of players! They all display the kind of hot and cold performances that both low tier mains and Japanese players do in general. But none of the DHDs have shown the kind of peak performance that T did at SAT or Umebura 24 except for maybe Raito.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

This is something I really want to see discussed. It can leave us all walking away with great knowledge. Perhaps we can get more in depth with how people do it? Someone above said Larry and Leo play around shield well, I'd love some reasons why or videos or whatever to help illustrate it better. (Although your post was still good, don't worry)

Off the top of my head, Larry vs Zero at Mexico saga. Larry was constantly putting on pressure with things like AC bair ftilt up smash and jab double ftilt up smash, ZeRo almost had his shield broken on multiple occasions and almost never had a full shield. They aren't true blockstrings but because of how fast things come out and how little time was between everything, it would be dangerous to let shield down

 

[ElectricBlade]

Off the top of my head, Larry vs Zero at Mexico saga. Larry was constantly putting on pressure with things like AC bair ftilt up smash and jab double ftilt up smash, ZeRo almost had his shield broken on multiple occasions and almost never had a full shield. They aren't true blockstrings but because of how fast things come out and how little time was between everything, it would be dangerous to let shield down

These are great examples. I'll go watch the vods for that now!

 

[Krysco]

Can I ask when it became common practice to say that Bowser's disadvantage state isn't that bad?

He has a good OoS option in up B. Which is still highly punishable. He has a rewarding grab, but it doesn't have amazing range or frame data compared to your typical grab. You avoid it like you would any shieldgrab.

Bowser's aerial disadvantage state is horrendous. Horrendous. I shouldn't need to elaborate. Side B to land is the only thing about it that's pretty good, and that has the same counterplay as Wario's Chomp. It's even easier to get around because the active frames are worse.

Bowser has a lot of strengths (his ledge trapping capabilities are by far his most interesting aspect at the moment) but disadvantage is not one of them.



He was not the dawn of a new era, he was and still remains the series' biggest anomaly.

This is despite him playing nothing like your typical heavy.

Minor nitpick but Bowser's grab range is only below DK's, Greninja's and tether characters and is actually better than Zelda's and Jr's.

Frame data-wise, it is bad though. Frame 9-10 with an faf of 39. In terms of start up, it's only better than Greninja's, Zelda's and tether grabs and endlag, it's only better than Robin's and tether grabs. This is only taking standing/shield grab into consideration.

 

[Dre89]

The thing about Bowser that makes him so binary is that not only is grab his highest reward move, it's also his easiest move to land most of the time. It beats shields but also has enough range to outspace many hitboxes. It breaks the traditional triangle of grab-shield-attack-grab, because in his case grab can beat both shield and attack.

 

[Locke 06]

I don't think this is a particularly accurate assessment at all.

Placements from Umebura SAT on:*
*=Props to the wiki for actually being updated with Japanese tournaments so I didn't have to go through a bunch of brackets

T: 9th, 2nd, 33rd, 49th, 1st, 33rd, 4th, 33rd, 25th, 13th
Average: 16.5

Raito: 65th, 5th, 33rd, 25th, 17th, 5th, 13th, 7th, 33rd, 2nd
Average: 20.5

You3: 49th, 13th, 25th, 49th, 5th, 2nd
Average: 23.83

Brood: 65th, 9th, 33rd, 17th, 17th
Average: 25.6

If we remove their worst placements (for the dogs: the biggest Japanese major; for T: a smaller university tournament):

Raito: 15.5
T: 17
Brood: 17.8
You3: 18.8

It's a pretty closely bunched group of players! They all display the kind of hot and cold performances that both low tier mains and Japanese players do in general. But none of the DHDs have shown the kind of peak performance that T did at SAT or Umebura 24 except for maybe Raito.

Averaging placings is a really bad way of looking at results, tbh. There's 1 win in loser's separating 33rd and 25th, but also 1 win separating 2nd and 3rd. It bias' results toward wins at the earlier part of bracket, which theoretically is the less difficult part.

 

[teddystalin]

Averaging placings is a really bad way of looking at results, tbh. There's 1 win in loser's separating 33rd and 25th, but also 1 win separating 2nd and 3rd. It bias' results toward wins at the earlier part of bracket, which theoretically is the less difficult part.

You're not at all wrong. I generally compare players by wins and losses instead of by placings, but wasn't in a setting where I could easily trawl through brackets and went for a quick and dirty way to make my point.

 

[ElectricBlade]

So after hearing all of this Bowser talk for a while I decided to go find some counterplay on him and thought ZeRo vs Nairo at Zero saga was a good pick for analyzing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1OtNiXPfAc Here it is.

Now this is straight from word pad so it may be a bit broken up, but here`s what I saw that was done really well by ZeRo and I feel can help a lot of people.


ZeRo put a lot of focus on always moving around staying out of grab range. A lot of dash backs can be good, or just dash dances in general. This is because Bowser's only real goal is to get grab by waiting for you to whiff an attack, force you to misspace an attack, or just predicting your position and grabbing you. This means you need to stay mobile and not swing very much.
Second important thing I see Zero doing is going into the grab range to bait it out. This can be done by feinting your approaches a lot. One of bowsers main ways of getting a grab is pivot grabbing you out of your approaching option, this can be baited by running up and rolling back, short hopping back, stuff like that. Another bait he does is shielding in the range of his grab sometimes to condition the Bowser player (Nairo in this case) into thinking they have a grab opportunity then short hopping out of shield and getting a punish if the Bowser plays bites.

Zeros gameplan seemed to be a combination of playing bait and punish with his unpredictable movement, and using more aggressive baits so Nairo does not full catch onto his retreating habits. This is footsies 101 but it works well.

Another big thing I see Zero doing is constantly changing his landing timings, as well as what he does when he lands on the ground. He will usually dash back, perfect pivot back, walk back, spot dodge, stuff like that. He will also mix in roll towards Nairo so that he doesn't get predicted retreating every time (Think of it like a 75:25 mix up of retreating or approaching). While Zero is landing he almost never throws out an aerial because of Bowser mainly using the shield grab approach to juggling, which is soft countered by not swinging. He only attacks when Bowser commits.


Game 2 really showed off how powerful platform camping is with smart movement decisions. Because Bowser can't REALLY grab you on there without him using Claw (which Zero priotizes avoiding it seems). He always has to take a sizable risk and try to use his aerials to hit you. While Bowser's aerials are really powerful and Fair autocancels, they all have a terrible FAF. So this allowed Zero to get Banana throw downwards into a Bair afterwards to either reset back onto it or to push the stage position. Although Diddy is lucky to have a great escape option once Bowser actually lands onto the platform with Monkey flip however. Some characters would have to eat a sort of scary mix up.

While I mainly wanted to focus on how ZeRo played neutral against Bowser, I did notice how scary it was for Nairo everytime because of how scary it is for him to be on the ledge. Smashville being small makes this happen more often. ZeRo can sometimes do more damage than a Bowser combo while trapping him, he also showed how easy it can be to edgeguard Bowser.

A lot of this comes down to moving more, and swinging less. This is actually the basic rules of PPMD and I think everyone should follow it.

A lot of stuff here may sound simply fundamental to some of you, but this worked out VERY well for ZeRo. It was a very interesting watch indeed. To be honest if you want to learn match ups ZeRo is really good at counterplay, watch him versus Ryu for example...he's really good.

Id like to apologize in advance if i got anything here wrong or if I missed anything important, feel free to respond about it. Im open to discussion.

 

[|RK|]

So after hearing all of this Bowser talk for a while I decided to go find some counterplay on him and thought ZeRo vs Nairo at Zero saga was a good pick for analyzing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1OtNiXPfAc Here it is.

Now this is straight from word pad so it may be a bit broken up, but here`s what I saw that was done really well by ZeRo and I feel can help a lot of people.


ZeRo put a lot of focus on always moving around staying out of grab range. A lot of dash backs can be good, or just dash dances in general. This is because Bowser's only real goal is to get grab by waiting for you to whiff an attack, force you to misspace an attack, or just predicting your position and grabbing you. This means you need to stay mobile and not swing very much.
Second important thing I see Zero doing is going into the grab range to bait it out. This can be done by feinting your approaches a lot. One of bowsers main ways of getting a grab is pivot grabbing you out of your approaching option, this can be baited by running up and rolling back, short hopping back, stuff like that. Another bait he does is shielding in the range of his grab sometimes to condition the Bowser player (Nairo in this case) into thinking they have a grab opportunity then short hopping out of shield and getting a punish if the Bowser plays bites.

Zeros gameplan seemed to be a combination of playing bait and punish with his unpredictable movement, and using more aggressive baits so Nairo does not full catch onto his retreating habits. This is footsies 101 but it works well.

Another big thing I see Zero doing is constantly changing his landing timings, as well as what he does when he lands on the ground. He will usually dash back, perfect pivot back, walk back, spot dodge, stuff like that. He will also mix in roll towards Nairo so that he doesn't get predicted retreating every time (Think of it like a 75:25 mix up of retreating or approaching). While Zero is landing he almost never throws out an aerial because of Bowser mainly using the shield grab approach to juggling, which is soft countered by not swinging. He only attacks when Bowser commits.


Game 2 really showed off how powerful platform camping is with smart movement decisions. Because Bowser can't REALLY grab you on there without him using Claw (which Zero priotizes avoiding it seems). He always has to take a sizable risk and try to use his aerials to hit you. While Bowser's aerials are really powerful and Fair autocancels, they all have a terrible FAF. So this allowed Zero to get Banana throw downwards into a Bair afterwards to either reset back onto it or to push the stage position. Although Diddy is lucky to have a great escape option once Bowser actually lands onto the platform with Monkey flip however. Some characters would have to eat a sort of scary mix up.

While I mainly wanted to focus on how ZeRo played neutral against Bowser, I did notice how scary it was for Nairo everytime because of how scary it is for him to be on the ledge. Smashville being small makes this happen more often. ZeRo can sometimes do more damage than a Bowser combo while trapping him, he also showed how easy it can be to edgeguard Bowser.

A lot of this comes down to moving more, and swinging less. This is actually the basic rules of PPMD and I think everyone should follow it.

A lot of stuff here may sound simply fundamental to some of you, but this worked out VERY well for ZeRo. It was a very interesting watch indeed. To be honest if you want to learn match ups ZeRo is really good at counterplay, watch him versus Ryu for example...he's really good.

Id like to apologize in advance if i got anything here wrong or if I missed anything important, feel free to respond about it. Im open to discussion.

Just wanted to say this is a high-quality post, and I genuinely appreciate stuff like this.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

So after hearing all of this Bowser talk for a while I decided to go find some counterplay on him and thought ZeRo vs Nairo at Zero saga was a good pick for analyzing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1OtNiXPfAc Here it is.

Now this is straight from word pad so it may be a bit broken up, but here`s what I saw that was done really well by ZeRo and I feel can help a lot of people.


ZeRo put a lot of focus on always moving around staying out of grab range. A lot of dash backs can be good, or just dash dances in general. This is because Bowser's only real goal is to get grab by waiting for you to whiff an attack, force you to misspace an attack, or just predicting your position and grabbing you. This means you need to stay mobile and not swing very much.
Second important thing I see Zero doing is going into the grab range to bait it out. This can be done by feinting your approaches a lot. One of bowsers main ways of getting a grab is pivot grabbing you out of your approaching option, this can be baited by running up and rolling back, short hopping back, stuff like that. Another bait he does is shielding in the range of his grab sometimes to condition the Bowser player (Nairo in this case) into thinking they have a grab opportunity then short hopping out of shield and getting a punish if the Bowser plays bites.

Zeros gameplan seemed to be a combination of playing bait and punish with his unpredictable movement, and using more aggressive baits so Nairo does not full catch onto his retreating habits. This is footsies 101 but it works well.

Another big thing I see Zero doing is constantly changing his landing timings, as well as what he does when he lands on the ground. He will usually dash back, perfect pivot back, walk back, spot dodge, stuff like that. He will also mix in roll towards Nairo so that he doesn't get predicted retreating every time (Think of it like a 75:25 mix up of retreating or approaching). While Zero is landing he almost never throws out an aerial because of Bowser mainly using the shield grab approach to juggling, which is soft countered by not swinging. He only attacks when Bowser commits.


Game 2 really showed off how powerful platform camping is with smart movement decisions. Because Bowser can't REALLY grab you on there without him using Claw (which Zero priotizes avoiding it seems). He always has to take a sizable risk and try to use his aerials to hit you. While Bowser's aerials are really powerful and Fair autocancels, they all have a terrible FAF. So this allowed Zero to get Banana throw downwards into a Bair afterwards to either reset back onto it or to push the stage position. Although Diddy is lucky to have a great escape option once Bowser actually lands onto the platform with Monkey flip however. Some characters would have to eat a sort of scary mix up.

While I mainly wanted to focus on how ZeRo played neutral against Bowser, I did notice how scary it was for Nairo everytime because of how scary it is for him to be on the ledge. Smashville being small makes this happen more often. ZeRo can sometimes do more damage than a Bowser combo while trapping him, he also showed how easy it can be to edgeguard Bowser.

A lot of this comes down to moving more, and swinging less. This is actually the basic rules of PPMD and I think everyone should follow it.

A lot of stuff here may sound simply fundamental to some of you, but this worked out VERY well for ZeRo. It was a very interesting watch indeed. To be honest if you want to learn match ups ZeRo is really good at counterplay, watch him versus Ryu for example...he's really good.

Id like to apologize in advance if i got anything here wrong or if I missed anything important, feel free to respond about it. Im open to discussion.

Posts like this should be much more common because they're evidence of counterplay and the answer for why results happen. Don't know why x character is falling off? Look at the footage. Looking for answers? Look at the footage. Etc...

As much as we prioritize results for our evidence, this should be just as important.

 

[Das Koopa]

2nd weekly results compiled together.

Spoiler: 2GGC: GENESIS Saga (January 14th) (Southern California) (466 Entrants) (Category 4)

1st: ZeRo ,
2nd: Komorikiri ,
3rd: VoiD
4th: Tweek
5th: MKLeo ,
5th: Zenyou
7th: 6WX
7th: JK
9th: Javi ,
9th: Eon
9th: Mr. E
9th: K9sbruce ,
13th: Dabuz
13th: DSS
13th: Rich Brown
13th: Marss
17th: MVD
17th: Fatality
17th: Elegant
17th: Dath
17th: Teb
17th: Saiki
17th: Aarvark
17th: ImHip ,
25th: Nicko
25th: Vash
25th: Tyrant
25th: ESAM
25th: Ezreal
25th: KOSSismoss
25th: Pink Fresh
25th: Phoenix

Spoiler: Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (January 14th) (Japan) (120 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Ranai
2nd: Chanshu
3rd: Kuro
4th: 9B
5th: Nietono
5th: Sigma
7th: Kame
7th: Shogun
9th: NAI ,
9th: HIKARU
9th: Rizeasu ,
9th: Lv. 1
13th: Fuwa
13th: YB
13th: Earth
13th: Gobu

Spoiler: Shulla Bra Tokaigi Qualifier (January 15th) (Japan) (112 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Hiro
2nd: Raito
3rd: Paru
4th: Ri-ma
5th: Kirihara
5th: FILIP ,
7th: Yamanyon ,
7th: Ayapero

Spoiler: NHSmash 3 (January 14th) (Netherlands) (123 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Mr. R ,
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: S1
4th: LoNg0uw
5th: Ramses
5th: Badr
7th: Gregs ,
7th: Meru

Spoiler: Grand Tournament II - Boia Deh Edition (January 14th) (Italy) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Homika
2nd: Chimera ,
3rd: Pur Gars ,
4th: Genarog ,

Spoiler: Invasion 11 (January 11th) (New England) (76 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Raffi-X
2nd: Pugwest
3rd: Light
4th: Kuma

Spoiler: Mega Smash Mondays 81 (January 16th) (Southern California) (185 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Tweek
2nd: MKLeo ,
3rd: Komorikiri ,
4th: ESAM ,
5th: 6WX
5th: Tyrant
7th: Scizor ,
7th: Javi
9th: Mr. E
9th: Marss
9th: Elegant
9th: MVD
13th: Mr. ConCon
13th: Slither2Hunter
13th: Zxl ,
13th: K9sbruce

Spoiler: Salty Arena Cup #3 (January 14th) (France) (60 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Glutonny
2nd: Griffith ,
3rd: Elexiao ,
4th: Ogey

Spoiler: Super Smash Geek #4 (January 14th) (Canada) (72 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: SuperGirlKels
2nd: Venom
3rd: Holy
4th: DarkAura

Spoiler: Did That Just Happen? (January 16th) (Northern California) (33 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: WiiASE ,
2nd: 3xA
3rd: FuTure
4th: Vermillion

Spoiler: We Take Those Pre-G4 (January 17th) (Northern California) (68 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Legit
2nd: You3
3rd: KOSSismoss
4th: YellowRello

Spoiler: Hail Smash VIII (January 14th) (Mexico) (98 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Hyuga
2nd: Chag
3rd: Richi
4th: BryanZ
5th: Serge ,
5th: CloudY ,
7th: Pollo
7th: Richy

 

[Mario766]

2nd weekly results compiled together.
[/SPOILER]

https://smash.gg/tournament/coffee-boys-10/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/99472


Have another, 87 entrants.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Speaking of counterplay, MKLeo seemed to play the best anti-MK game I've ever seen in my life back at MSM...and still lost to Tyrant. Was he just off his game?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Speaking of counterplay, MKLeo seemed to play the best anti-MK game I've ever seen in my life back at MSM...and still lost to Tyrant. Was he just off his game?

Would have to see a VoD of it to make any actual analysis, but just based on the little I know and what I've heard other people say, things point to it being a hard matchup for Marth.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Oh, I see

Are there any MUs that Doc might do better in than Mario, or is Mario a straight up upgrade for every MU?

Interestingly enough Doc does well against Corrin.
While Doc is forced to respect a well spaced-pin, everything else Mario can do Doc can do with more damage & reward.
Not to mention DThrow > Fair is a true kill confirm & Dair destroys Corrin's low recovery. (Plus if Corrin tries to go high, it's a free cape for Doc)
But that's probably it unfortunately.

 

[ARGHETH]

Interestingly enough Doc does well against Corrin.
While Doc is forced to respect a well spaced-pin, everything else Mario can do Doc can do with more damage & reward.
Not to mention DThrow > Fair is a true kill confirm & Dair destroys Corrin's low recovery. (Plus if Corrin tries to go high, it's a free cape for Doc)
But that's probably it unfortunately.

The mobility is kind of a big difference against Corrin, though, because it allows Mario to get in against him much easier. Dr. Mario's air speed and run speed are both slower than Corrin's, while Mario's are faster.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

The mobility is kind of a big difference against Corrin, though, because it allows Mario to get in against him much easier. Dr. Mario's air speed and run speed are both slower than Corrin's, while Mario's are faster.

Mobility is not much of an issue on Doc's end as you might think.
It's mainly due to the fact that Corrin just can't keep him out as well as like say Marth.
Her lacking mobility isn't terrible but still not good enough for her to keep taking neutral, it doesn't help that Doc's Out-of-shield options are some of the best in the cast (Ex: Usmash, Nair, Uair, Bair, Uspecial, etc...).
Corrin's really only good tool against Doc's shield is Pin but that's it.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Would have to see a VoD of it to make any actual analysis, but just based on the little I know and what I've heard other people say, things point to it being a hard matchup for Marth.

I think Meta Knight is Marth's worst match relevant up, but even then it really isn't very bad. (I'm waiting for the Toon Links to return so we can have more data on if it's still a bad match up or not.)

Meta Knight's typically just very low to the ground, low enough to make fh fair practically non-existent unless you're using it to try and mix up into a landing nair, and harder to space sh fair and get away with it. Plus, Meta Knight's approaches are pretty ground based - dash grab, dash attack- and just flat out better than Marth's grounded approaches because grab and dancing blade are all risky options with good amounts of end lag if they whiff.
He doesn't hurt us like crazy like he does floaties, and he's not really hard to kill, he just makes playing neutral against him kind of awkward, that's about it.

 

[TDK]

2nd weekly results compiled together.

Spoiler: 2GGC: GENESIS Saga (January 14th) (Southern California) (466 Entrants) (Category 4)

1st: ZeRo ,
2nd: Komorikiri ,
3rd: VoiD
4th: Tweek
5th: MKLeo ,
5th: Zenyou
7th: 6WX
7th: JK
9th: Javi ,
9th: Eon
9th: Mr. E
9th: K9sbruce ,
13th: Dabuz
13th: DSS
13th: Rich Brown
13th: Marss
17th: MVD
17th: Fatality
17th: Elegant
17th: Dath
17th: Teb
17th: Saiki
17th: Aarvark
17th: ImHip ,
25th: Nicko
25th: Vash
25th: Tyrant
25th: ESAM
25th: Ezreal
25th: KOSSismoss
25th: Pink Fresh
25th: Phoenix

Spoiler: Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (January 14th) (Japan) (120 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Ranai
2nd: Chanshu
3rd: Kuro
4th: 9B
5th: Nietono
5th: Sigma
7th: Kame
7th: Shogun
9th: NAI ,
9th: HIKARU
9th: Rizeasu ,
9th: Lv. 1
13th: Fuwa
13th: YB
13th: Earth
13th: Gobu

Spoiler: Shulla Bra Tokaigi Qualifier (January 15th) (Japan) (112 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Hiro
2nd: Raito
3rd: Paru
4th: Ri-ma
5th: Kirihara
5th: FILIP
7th: Yamanyon
7th: Ayapero

Spoiler: NHSmash 3 (January 14th) (Netherlands) (123 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Mr. R ,
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: S1
4th: LoNg0uw
5th: Ramses
5th: Badr
7th: Gregs ,
7th: Meru

Spoiler: Grand Tournament II - Boia Deh Edition (January 14th) (Italy) (46 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Homika
2nd: Chimera
3rd: Pur Gars ,
4th: Genarog ,

Spoiler: Invasion 11 (January 11th) (New England) (76 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Raffi-X
2nd: Pugwest
3rd: Light
4th: Kuma

Spoiler: Mega Smash Mondays 81 (January 16th) (Southern California) (185 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Tweek
2nd: MKLeo ,
3rd: Komorikiri ,
4th: ESAM ,
5th: 6WX
5th: Tyrant
7th: Scizor ,
7th: Javi
9th: Mr. E
9th: Marss
9th: Elegant
9th: MVD
13th: Mr. ConCon
13th: Slither2Hunter
13th: Zxl ,
13th: K9sbruce

Spoiler: Salty Arena Cup #3 (January 14th) (France) (60 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Glutonny
2nd: Griffith ,
3rd: Elexiao
4th: Ogey

Spoiler: Super Smash Geek #4 (January 14th) (Canada) (72 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: SuperGirlKels
2nd: Venom
3rd: Holy
4th: DarkAura

Spoiler: Did That Just Happen? (January 16th) (Northern California) (33 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: WiiASE
2nd: 3xA
3rd: FuTure
4th: Vermillion

Spoiler: We Take Those Pre-G4 (January 17th) (Northern California) (68 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Legit
2nd: You3
3rd: KOSSismoss
4th: YellowRello

I hope you don't mind these posts. This is how I analyze your information and want to share.

Spoiler: total amount of top 8/16/32s

11 in top 8, 12 in top 16, 12 in top 32
6 in top 8, 7 in top 16, 7 in top 32
6 in top 8, 6 in top 16, 7 in top 32
5 in top 8, 8 in top 16, 9 in top 32
5 in top 8, 7 in top 16, 7 in top 32
4 in top 8, 6 in top 16, 6 in top 32
:4iddy: 3 in top 8, 5 in top 16, 6 in top 32
3 in top 8, 5 in top 16, 6 in top 32
3 in top 8, 4 in top 16, 4 in top 32
3 in top 8, 4 in top 16, 4 in top 32
3 in top 8, 3 in top 16, 3 in top 32 (100%)
3 in top 8, 3 in top 16, 3 in top 32 (100%)
2 in top 8, 4 in top 16, 4 in top 32
2 in top 8, 3 in top 16, 3 in top 32
2 in top 8, 3 in top 16, 3 in top 32
2 in top 8, 2 in top 16, 3 in top 32
2 in top 8, 2 in top 16, 2 in top 32 (100%)
2 in top 8, 2 in top 16, 2 in top 32 (100%)
2 in top 8, 2 in top 16, 2 in top 32 (100%)
1 in top 8, 5 in top 16, 6 in top 32
1 in top 8, 3 in top 16, 4 in top 32
1 in top 8, 2 in top 16, 3 in top 32
1 in top 8, 2 in top 16, 2 in top 32
1 in top 8, 2 in top 16, 2 in top 32
1 in top 8, 2 in top 16, 2 in top 32
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 3 in top 32
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 2 in top 32
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 2 in top 32
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 2 in top 32
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 1 in top 32 (100%)
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 1 in top 32 (100%)
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 1 in top 32 (100%)
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 1 in top 32 (100%)
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 1 in top 32 (100%)
1 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 1 in top 32 (100%)
0 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 1 in top 32
0 in top 8, 1 in top 16, 1 in top 32
0 in top 8, 0 in top 16, 1 in top 32
0 in top 8, 0 in top 16, 1 in top 32
0 in top 8, 0 in top 16, 1 in top 32

Total amount of characters that placed: 40 (!!)

Notes from last week:

- Cloud is back at the top
- DK and Bowser tied (The debate will never end)
- Out of the three biggest winners from last week (Peach, Rob, and Luigi), only ROB managed to keep all of its momentum. Luigi did alright, but Peach crashed.

Spoiler: Top 32 but it's an image

To be honest I don't think this is very accurate, but it does show how wide open the meta is. Cloud is the king, Sheik is also elevated above everyone else, Mewtwo tanked hard, and Duck Hunt and pit both look like high tiers here. Toon Link is in the top 10 (Or Greninja, they're tied for 10-11th), Meta Knight is also in the top 10, and DK and Bowser dead tied.

I probably won't count top 32s for this in the future, it's more just an accurate representation of how wide open the meta is.

Spoiler: Top 16 image

Outside of this image being way too large, it's basically a more streamlined version of the other one. Pikachu was the only character to suffer a major drop between 32 and 16 (Outside of the ones that went from 1 to 0), Once again, Mewtwo tanked really hard, being tied with Lucina for just barely above 0. Samus, Duck Hunt and Palutena made really good strides this week, while Cloud and Sheik continue to just be better than the rest.

Better than the top 32, in terms of accuracy, but the top 8 is still the most accurate one.

Spoiler: Top 8 list

This is slightly more accurate. Marth became top 5, Sheik dropped a little, ROB is suddenly a high tier (This happened last week too), and Mewtwo and Mega Man both failed to get even a single top 8.

 

[Ulevo]

I disagree that Meta Knight is Marth's worst match up. I disagree that it is event bad. It is likely even, possibly in Marths favour if Marth is playing close to perfect. You need to understand the purpose behind a characters intent and function to assess match ups, and based on that alone I do not see how Marth does poorly.

Meta Knight has to use, as Dabuz aptly coined it, 'false pressure' into forcing reactions or putting your opponent in bad situations so that you can use Meta Knight's fast burst options to start a combo. This pressure is usually exerted through movement and very precise spacing that feints certain options that need to be respected. In the event you cannot make your opponent make a mistake, you need to use unreactable 50/50's in neutral.

This does not work properly when the opponent has a projectile that forces the Meta Knight to play proactively rather than reactively. It also does not work very well when the opponent has large disjoints that have relatively low commitment when thrown out, which is where Marth excels, because it cover the 50/50 option and does not require a response to the pressure being exerted.

Marths air speed is very fast and has good acceleration, and trying to punish fading short hop forward airs is very difficult to do. It will stuff attempts to dash in most of the time. Jab is also an option with little commitment and a lot of reward. I would also like to add that Marth seems like he would be a great combo weight, but in practice it is a double edge sword. Marth's weight and fall speed make it easy to juggle him but also make it easy for Marth to fall out with good SDI. You often need to cut your combos short in order to prevent him from falling out and getting an up air or forward air and reversing the situation.

To add to this, Marth is has very strong ledge traps, which Meta Knight does not do well against, like in the Fox match up. Tippers ensure you die early. Dancing Blade is a brainless move that nets easy damage on a lot of commitment options, and will often times beat dash attack as well.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I disagree that Meta Knight is Marth's worst match up. I disagree that it is event bad. It is likely even, possibly in Marths favour if Marth is playing close to perfect. You need to understand the purpose behind a characters intent and function to assess match ups, and based on that alone I do not see how Marth does poorly.

Meta Knight has to use, as Dabuz aptly coined it, 'false pressure' into forcing reactions or putting your opponent in bad situations so that you can use Meta Knight's fast burst options to start a combo. This pressure is usually exerted through movement and very precise spacing that feints certain options that need to be respected. In the event you cannot make your opponent make a mistake, you need to use unreactable 50/50's in neutral.

This does not work properly when the opponent has a projectile that forces the Meta Knight to play proactively rather than reactively. It also does not work very well when the opponent has large disjoints that have relatively low commitment when thrown out, which is where Marth excels, because it cover the 50/50 option and does not require a response to the pressure being exerted.

Marths air speed is very fast and has good acceleration, and trying to punish fading short hop forward airs is very difficult to do. It will stuff attempts to dash in most of the time. Jab is also an option with little commitment and a lot of reward. I would also like to add that Marth seems like he would be a great combo weight, but in practice it is a double edge sword. Marth's weight and fall speed make it easy to juggle him but also make it easy for Marth to fall out with good SDI. You often need to cut your combos short in order to prevent him from falling out and getting an up air or forward air and reversing the situation.

To add to this, Marth is has very strong ledge traps, which Meta Knight does not do well against, like in the Fox match up. Tippers ensure you die early. Dancing Blade is a brainless move that nets easy damage on a lot of commitment options, and will often times beat dash attack as well.

Not his worst match up, his worst relevant match up. I think Meta Knight is worse for Marth than Bowser, but if you were to ask be what I though Marth's worst match up was, I'd have to say Toon Link right now, but Toon Link isn't relevant. We haven't seen anything really notable from Toon Link for several months.

I think Meta Knight:Marth is 55:45 Meta Knight's favor. You can't play perfect in this game, it's human vs human not human vs robot.

 

[Chalice]

You can't play perfect in this game, it's human vs human not human vs robot.

Mew2King would be offended

kappa

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

For the Lucas mains that lurk this thread, Batmayne and Kodystri are going to Genesis 4. I made a thread with only one post if anybody finds more Lucas mains there in the days to come.

https://smashboards.com/threads/list-of-lucas-mains-at-genesis-4.444976/

 

[BunbUn129]

Speaking of counterplay, MKLeo seemed to play the best anti-MK game I've ever seen in my life back at MSM...and still lost to Tyrant. Was he just off his game?

Leo played fine during the first 2 games. In game 1, he was handily abusing MK's reliance on dashing approaches by staying right out of dash attack/grab range. Tyrant took the bait and Leo punished him with things like pivot grabs and d tilt. Leo took advantage of MK's short range and mediocre air speed to build damage with well-spaced fairs and up airs. Game 2 played out in much the same way; Leo just made a few mistakes at the worst possible moments. Tyrant killed Marth offstage because Leo didn't air dodge fair. SHAD is rather dangerous to use against MK at higher percents because it's an excellent opportunity for an f smash kill, and that's exactly how game 2 ended. During both these games, he DI'ed MK's up airs very well.

Game 3 is where it kind of fell apart for Leo. Tyrant started to get his punish game together, used it to gain a decent lead, and then played defensively. This is by far the best way to play MK: using a lead to force an approach, so he can use all of the neutral options at his disposal, rather than focusing on dash-ins. Tyrant had clearly adapted. Leo managed to close the gap by exploiting the mobility and range differences between Limit Cloud and MK. It was mostly even until Tyrant bet everything on his up b, which killed. From there he ran away with it, and surprisingly--and rather ironically--closed it out with a ladder KO.

The overall outcome was decided by some good hits from Tyrant at the most important moments, and a few poor decisions from Leo at the most unfortunate times--basically as you should expect any set to go when an MK is involved. It confirms what I said about Tyrant earlier: he brings out the big guns only when he feels pressured to do so. It also proves that MK still has some of the best comeback options in the game: dash attack / up air -> up b, up b in general, bair, f smash. In fact, these options are so good that they allowed Tyrant to beat Leo despite the latter holding the upper hand for much of the neutral game (and being considered a significantly better player as well).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

SO I am back here again to show another tournament this week you should watch that is happening today, and I feel it will be more interesting than the amazing MSM this week! It is the Pre-Genesis foundry event! While registration is still ongoing, a lot of huge, international names are attending!


DNG Kameme
Shaky
9B
K9
Rain
Earth
Nietono
Ito
Day
Xzax
Remzi
Kogarasuma
Legit
Captain L
Big D
Trevonte
Ridae
Regi
Zenyou
LingLing
Charliedaking
Zan
Soronie
Zex
DabuzSlayerSix(DSS)
Umeki
FILIP
Ri-ma
Kuro
OCEAN
Brood
You3



https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-of-the-titans-15-special-pre-genesis-4-foundry/events


Already at 182 entrants, starts in 2 hours.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Big D plays Mario more these days iirc. He still has a secondary Dedede though ShadowGuy1

 

[TDK]

Big D uses Mario and Falcon with a pocket/secondary Dedede.

Also if that is actually DSS's full tag that's godlike.

 

[Hoodez]

I personally would've switched Mario with Rosalina, considering that most of his moves are both fast and safe, he has extremely good frame data, and invincibility frames on his recovery. But I'm NOT saying Rosie's bad, I just think Mario's a teeny tiny bit better in those aspects.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Big D uses Mario and Falcon with a pocket/secondary Dedede.

Also if that is actually DSS's full tag that's godlike.

It actually isint I decided to add that in just for some memes haha.

Also thanks for telling me who Big D primarily uses!

 

[Aaron1997]

Smash of the Titans 15 Notable sets

You3>Regi 2-1
KOSSismoss>Rain2-0
Stark>Earth 2-1
BigD>2-0
Ashley>OCEAN2-0
You3>Stark2-1
Earth>Regi 2-1
Trevonte>Ri-ma2-1
Xzax>9B2-0

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Seems like DHD is doing well at Smash of the Titans 15, how good is this You3 anyways? I don't know all the names there is to know in sm4sh but beating Regi and Stark seems pretty good.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You don't just ask how good they are when they have a history of high consistency.
If anything you watch the stream and judge by yourself.


ANYWAY, by reading the brackets, apparently Ri-ma 2-0 Umeki
also, one of either Earth or Regi won't make it out of their pool.
Jan 2-0 Kuro
Dance!! 2-1 OCEAN
Brood 2-0 Rice

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Excuse me but I typically don't watch the streams or double or triple check the names on tournament brackets. My post before asking should've told you that I said it myself 'I'm not very familiar with the players who play sm4sh' meaning I have no clue on their consistency, playstyle OR how often they main tourneys! I'm probably only familiar with Zero, Dabuz, and maybe Esam and that's about it from how often they popped up on Das Koopa's tourney listings and even then I haven't seen videos of their plays so I wouldn't be able to judge if they're good or bad compared to those three (not to mention they main completely different characters so the playstyle might be drastically different anyways).
The reason I'm asking is I CAN'T judge for myself! I don't know the player's history!

edit:In no way is this meant to be mean or disrespectful, (though it can be seen as confrontational sorry) It's just that I'm a complete NOOB not just to the competitive scene but to any sort of sm4sh stream. I'm browsing the boards on my Wii U's gamepad for crying out loud! I'm super happy DHD is getting in on the competitive scene though as a solo main. I'm going to ask if that's rare because with my limited browsing I haven't seen it.

 

[Aaron1997]

You3>Shaky2-1 HUGE WIN FOR FrankerZ

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Is You san winning over shaky considered an upset?