Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

I'm gonna try to jot down some thoughts here:

Likely to drop:
Potential to rise:
Going to fluctuate in the meta in varying degrees, but will remain viable in some form regardless:

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Last thing you guys want is Ganondorf with mobility. He has one of the best kits of aerials and giving him better mobility would be not fun.

Also Ganondorf is amazing in doubles... if he has a support partner like let's say Wario, Mario or Sheik who can aid his recovery and boost his kill ability with moves like Needles, throws and Bike (Bike is MVP in doubles).

I agree with the notion that Ganon with better mobility could possibly end up being obnoxious as his attacks are straight-up amazing just trapped in the body of a turtle. As previously said, giving him reward for getting grabs would make him at least low tier.
Slightly increase his grab range and make one of his throws a combo throw that could possibly lead into a kill at high percents and maybe even a kill throw (something along the lines of Marth's uthrow) on top of that and... ta-da! Now Ganon is a good character. It worked with Bowser, Robin, DK and possibly Zelda, I don't see why Ganon of all the characters must have such a pitiful grab game. I understand not giving these traits to a character like Cloud who has amazing everything else, but why the poor King of Evil must be so tragically weak with his arms...

You two dudes are goofy

Ganondorf's stats:

Run speed (1.218) 56/58
Walk speed (0.73) 57/58
Air speed (0.79) 56/58

Making his run speed approx. 1.38 ( > D3), walk speed 0.87 (= zelda), and air speed 0.9 ( > link) wouldn't break him, but push him a bit closer towards viability. It's all about degree.

 

[Dagon97]

Holiday Heist 2 (MI, 73 entrants) https://smash.gg/tournament/holiday-heist-2/events/wii-u-singles/brackets

1. Zinoto
2. ????
3. Mystearica
4. SETHsational
5. Regralht
5. LOE1
7. Ozone
7. Nero



The character diversity is real.

I had never heard of ????, Mystearica, Regralht or Ozone before, do they often go to these tournaments?

 

[Krysco]

Seems as though DK goes through a bit of the same problem that Lucina does. There's a similar character that's deemed better and so they're put further down than they should be. Not quite the same case since Lucina is a fullout clone while DK and Bowser have different mobility stats and frame data but their flaws and main appeal are similar enough to cause the problem. Both being heavyweights with a main positive being their grab game, both in terms of damage racking and killing and they both share the problems of being awful in disadvantage, including being on the ledge. Another notable difference in the comparison being that DK was and sometimes still is deemed better than Bowser while Lucina was pretty much never deemed better than Marth.

Then you've got the distant cousin sitting in the corner with some people claiming they have potential but it's almost never seen and so is often ignored~

 

[Dre89]

Seems as though DK goes through a bit of the same problem that Lucina does. There's a similar character that's deemed better and so they're put further down than they should be. Not quite the same case since Lucina is a fullout clone while DK and Bowser have different mobility stats and frame data but their flaws and main appeal are similar enough to cause the problem. Both being heavyweights with a main positive being their grab game, both in terms of damage racking and killing and they both share the problems of being awful in disadvantage, including being on the ledge. Another notable difference in the comparison being that DK was and sometimes still is deemed better than Bowser while Lucina was pretty much never deemed better than Marth.

Then you've got the distant cousin sitting in the corner with some people claiming they have potential but it's almost never seen and so is often ignored~

Charizard's problem is that he doesn't have the reward to compensate for constantly losing neutral like DK and Bowser do. He also doesn't really have top tier bread and butter moves like DK bair or Bowser jab which can be used liberally in a multitude of situations. He has to do a lot more work to get the same result as DK or Bowser.

 

[outfoxd]

I had never heard of ????, Mystearica, Regralht or Ozone before, do they often go to these tournaments?

Mystearica is from a diff Midwest state that comes to Mi from time to time.

The other three are Michigan regulars.

Reg used to be on our PR, Ozone has been steadily rising and may welll make PR. Fun fact, ???? is actually Zinotos twin brother that started playing completely on his own with little input from Zinoto. We generally read his tag as "Unknown". He has a terrifying work ethic and academic approach to training that has paid dividends.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Is saying that Bowser is better than DK really underrating DK?

Outside of his throw combos, the only moves DK really has going for him are up b, bair, dtilt, utilt, and jab. He has no good burst movement options and no usable forward facing aerials. Nairo might not have used as much of Bowser's kit as others but Bowser's got most of his move set going for him. Better out of shield options, better landing, doesn't get combo'd as hard and can actually get off the ledge. And they both have broken throw combos! Much of the relevant cast has much more of a reason to be scared of Bowser than to be scared of DK at all. The majority of them juggle and ledge trap DK to **** while Bowser has actual options to land with, even if they are risk, at least they actually exist.

DK probably has one of the best bairs in the game still

I'd say that ZSS, Bayonetta, Captain Falcon, Marth, Lucina, Mario, Cloud, and Sheik all have better bairs than DK. You could probably even add Diddy and Fox to that list.

 

[Rizen]

Is saying that Bowser is better than DK really underrating DK?

Outside of his throw combos, the only moves DK really has going for him are up b, bair, dtilt, utilt, and jab. He has no good burst movement options and no usable forward facing aerials. Nairo might not have used as much of Bowser's kit as others but Bowser's got most of his move set going for him. Better out of shield options, better landing, doesn't get combo'd as hard and can actually get off the ledge. And they both have broken throw combos! Much of the relevant cast has much more of a reason to be scared of Bowser than to be scared of DK at all. The majority of them juggle and ledge trap DK to **** while Bowser has actual options to land with, even if they are risk, at least they actually exist.


I'd say that ZSS, Bayonetta, Captain Falcon, Marth, Lucina, Mario, Cloud, and Sheik all have better bairs than DK. You could probably even add Diddy and Fox to that list.

Why does Bowser get off the ledge easier than DK?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard's problem is that he doesn't have the reward to compensate for constantly losing neutral like DK and Bowser do.

I respectfully disagree.

Charizard doesn't have as good as reward as the other two mainly due to his neutral and disadvantage being better. Debatably, Charizard has the best disadvantage of any super heavy (which is still bad, but only he and Bowser would be considered decent in my opinion). Charizard may have worse highs but he has better lows.

He also doesn't really have top tier bread and butter moves like DK bair or Bowser jab which can be used liberally in a multitude of situations.

You should check out Charizard's jab. It isn't Bowser's jab amazing or anything but it's a fairly great move to throw out. It helps that jab three has deceptive range in a good way. D-tilt is also pretty good. Though it has a windbox that let's goofy things happen.

Why does Bowser get off the ledge easier than DK?

I'm assuming he's gonna say that Whirling Fortress goes higher than Spinning Kong and thus can provide a suitable vertical and horizontal recovery.

That combined with some different air physics and some really fast aerials.

At least that's why I think he said that.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Why does Bowser get off the ledge easier than DK?

A command grab and a forward facing aerial are enough to make it easier.

 

[verbatim]

DK's jab is slightly better than Bowser's (especially OOS). It comes out faster, confirms into grab into anything, and into jab pivot utilt.

In general I think people forget that DK is the faster of the two in the air when comparing them, and that his back air is the best aerial/spacing tool out of all of their moves. One thing that also really caught me off guard was that DK can up b out of Mario's down air before the last hit, which is one of the big things people bring up when talking about how both of these characters do pretty well against Mario.

 

[TDK]

Generally speaking.

Bowser, DK and Charizard are the ones with competitive value as they get results somewhat consistently.

Dedede and Ganondorf are the ones that dont get that.

Putting them in exact orders is semantics at this point.

What results has Zard been getting somewhat consistently? Legitimately curious, because I don't remember any.

Also Big D got 5th at Don't Park on the Grass using Dedede and Mario (I believe Dedede mostly), so that's something recent.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What results has Zard been getting somewhat consistently? Legitimately curious, because I don't remember any.

Lot of little things all over the place. At least recently.

Granted, they aren't majors but they're surprisingly consistent for a character that low on the tier list. @Das Koopa can help out there.

Also Big D got 5th at Don't Park on the Grass using Dedede and Mario (I believe Dedede mostly), so that's something recent.

I know and I honestly think Dedede is underrated, but I'm just saying, it hasn't happened that much as of late.

 

[Sev3n]

That all being said, I do recognize the differences in their arrows, their returning boomerangs, their dash attacks, up smashes, down smashes to a point, and every aerial save for uair and somewhat zair. As for the boomerang angles, does the smash throw result in a different angle for the up and down throws? I always just thought it made it go further.

The angles are the obvious three (facing to the right, Straight Right, Up Right, Downright), and then the angles inbetween each of those points as well. There are no notches on the Gamecube controller for those angles, so they are a little less intuitive.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DK's bair is criminally overrated.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would take DK over Bowser anyway day. Actual pokes in neutral?

Sign me the **** up.

 

[soniczx123]

I would take DK over Bowser anyway day. Actual pokes in neutral?

Sign me the **** up.

Signs of a SF player right here

 

[Jaguar360]

What results has Zard been getting somewhat consistently? Legitimately curious, because I don't remember any.

Also Big D got 5th at Don't Park on the Grass using Dedede and Mario (I believe Dedede mostly), so that's something recent.

Chuck Nasty winning a large regional in central US beating MJG and also getting a respectable 33rd at UGC and 65th at EVO alongside Bloodcross.

Sharpy won a Dominican Republic regional with around 140 entrants during the summer and got 7th at the tournament DKWill visited the DR for.

Hitomoshi won an online Japanese tournament with victories over Ri-ma, Ron and Kie a few months ago. Also in Japan, Tosshi got 25th at Umebura Benq ZOWIE cup where heat beat Taratino () and Eim() notably.

Can't remember specifics too well here, but Fire had gotten some high placings at a number of French tournaments over the past few months.

There used to be a time where Zard really had no results but since like this summer or so, that's not quite the case anymore.

EDIT: People are probably done reading about this right now, but I completely forgot about Serge using a lot of Charizard to dominate Mexico and beat NAKAT's Fox. I think he is the best Charizard.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Which players do you guys think has the best punish game? One for Consistency and one for sheer power.

 

[JB333]

Ledge Gardens (GA, 101 entrants) http://challonge.com/LGVsingles

1. Fatality
2. Scatt
3. Hyper(!!!)
4. TheReflexWonder
5. Wrath
5. Kodystri
7. LordMix
7. CC


I watched some of the sets from this one last night, and I'm extremely impressed with Hyper's Roy. He is extremely aggressive with the character while also showing great patience with him. His Roy is also the fastest Roy I've ever seen. Compared to other Roys, his movement is unparalleled. After taking sets off of Wrath and Scatt last night, I think it's safe to say that Hyper is the best solo Roy main. Other than that, Fatality winning this one is actually pretty big. He has struggled against Reflex and Scatt, but last night he beat both of them by a solid margin.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Which players do you guys think has the best punish game? One for Consistency and one for sheer power.

Salem, Nairo, Ally, Tyrant, prolly some others.

 

[Fenny]

For the Bayos, Salem's the most consistent while Zack is the most brutal (mostly every Bayo at the top level agrees that Zack's the best at converting random hits into heavy punishes).

Nairo takes both positions for the most consistent and most powerful punishes.

Zenyou is generally considered to have the best punish game of the Mario players, but ANTi and Ally make it up in having better neutrals and fundamentals. Ally has a big clutch factor which probably contributes though.

 

[Ulevo]

Salem, Nairo, Ally, Tyrant, prolly some others.

Tyrant's punish game is horrendous.

 

[Jams.]

Also Big D got 5th at Don't Park on the Grass using Dedede and Mario (I believe Dedede mostly), so that's something recent.

He did not mostly use DDD, he used mostly Mario and Falcon. Big D honestly needs to stop being brought up as a DDD rep because his primary use of the character now is to beat players worse than him and to potentially cheese players that don't know the MU. DDD is 100% a pocket character for him.

 

[blackghost]

Which players do you guys think has the best punish game? One for Consistency and one for sheer power.

salem and mk leo stand out

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tyrant's punish game is horrendous.

Oh, word?

Then why even play MK? Seems rather pointless.

 

[T4ylor]

Oh, word?

Then why even play MK? Seems rather pointless.

He has the best neutral of any MK by far, but also has the worst punish game. He did say he was going to work on it recently

 

[|RK|]

The difference is that Cloud has the most polarizing doubles win condition in the game. No other single character has something that gamechanging. Certainly not the fatties. You get all his ridiculously good handoff throws, amazing edgeguarding potential, great lasting hitboxes FOR handoffs, a virtually godlike kill move Smash attack for handoffs, excellent 2v1 potential, great ledgetrapping.....and Limit on top of it. Fatties just have the handoffs and a bunch of extra negatives.

Double Uair Up B isn't at all long considering the teammate will most likely be fighting someone else. Even Bayo stuff is pretty short. There's the extra issue a lot of characters have of not being able to reach up that high in order to save you in time. The only "ladder" that should almost never be working in team play is +3 hit Uair MK combos. The rest with and whoever else are all fair game.

Well, like I said. It's harder for Bowser to break away from the chaos and actually get up there in order to seal that 85% stock. There's less variance with your Cloud partner to fresh Uair someone off the top at 120% or simply get his 90-100% Usmash off your throw.

Cloud is certainly an amazing doubles character - I don't disagree. I was just making the point that being easy to gimp isn't that much of a death sentence in doubles.

And sure - double up air up b is relatively quick to land, but ZSS has to land it multiple times on a superheavy. The reason she usually destroys them in singles is because she can get openings for it rather easily - same with the other ladder combo characters. In doubles, these opportunities are rarer and more likely to get broken up.

And I suppose the last point is consistency vs strength. Same reason you might pick Diddy over Bayo or vice versa. While it might take Cloud a couple of openings (or a more prolonged game) to get that 120% kill off the top, it takes one early one for Bowser - even if he can't break away as often.

 

[Ulevo]

I would say Leo's neutral might be stronger than Tyrant's, or at least it was. Leo's lack of Meta Knight play recently has been showing anytime he decides to play it. But yeah, Tyrant averages 13-17% per punish when he should be averaging 35-50% or a stock. To my understanding he does not openly take advice from other Meta Knight mains, so unless he were to sit in the lab for months he is naturally going to have limitations to his play.

 

[|RK|]

Oh, bunch of MU charts today haha:

https://t.co/3Aui0xamnz
Megaman MU
便乗ｗ強気に付けました＾－＾

— R2G｜kameme/かめめ (@kameme8808) December 31, 2016

This one's interesting for a couple reasons. Personally, I put Mega Man vs Kirby as even... but a loss is surprising. More interestingly is his belief that Mega Man loses to Diddy Kong - something that just hasn't looked true. Losing to Sonic is also surprising, considering MM has usually been seen as even to bad for Sonic.

Now, the rest:

今年最後のやーつ
4段目までと1番下の段だけ左右関係あり(左のがきつい) pic.twitter.com/GL4udvzDJv

— 【SBI】KEN (@KENisbg) December 31, 2016

やってる人ちらほら見るので pic.twitter.com/RKvnZzsJFZ

— ikep (@ikep334) December 31, 2016

色々考えも変わったんで作り直しました
割りと適当なので悪しからず
左右差なしです。分からんキャラは下に放置してますが割りとリンクに分があるんじゃないかなーって思います。ルカリオは天なので除外です。 pic.twitter.com/45ogqi7g4U

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) December 31, 2016

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Nobody listed VoiD

Hmm.........

 

[soniczx123]

Ledge Gardens (GA, 101 entrants) http://challonge.com/LGVsingles

1. Fatality
2. Scatt
3. Hyper(!!!)
4. TheReflexWonder
5. Wrath
5. Kodystri
7. LordMix
7. CC


I watched some of the sets from this one last night, and I'm extremely impressed with Hyper's Roy. He is extremely aggressive with the character while also showing great patience with him. His Roy is also the fastest Roy I've ever seen. Compared to other Roys, his movement is unparalleled. After taking sets off of Wrath and Scatt last night, I think it's safe to say that Hyper is the best solo Roy main. Other than that, Fatality winning this one is actually pretty big. He has struggled against Reflex and Scatt, but last night he beat both of them by a solid margin.

Where you can find VODs??

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MKLeo has the most consistent punish game.

 

[BunbUn129]

Which players do you guys think has the best punish game? One for Consistency and one for sheer power.

Leo is the player who, when using MK, will turn around to land a specific hitbox of up air during ladder combos, all to throw off the other player's DI and SDI, and to put MK in the best possible spot to ensure that both hits of Shuttle Loop will connect.

It's just an example of how strong and calculated his punishes are.

With regards to Tyrant, I can sum up his MK's punish game very accurately:

0-30%: d throw -> up smash
30-50%: d throw -> bair
50-100%: d throw / dash attack -> up b

Tyrant has proven many times that he is capable of pulling off MK's more elaborate combos, but usually he only does so when he's desperate to make a comeback. Going for basic 2-hit combos is fine with, say, Sheik. MK has to play neutral on a back foot against most good characters so Tyrant's overly safe punishes negatively affect his play.

 

[JB333]

Where you can find VODs??

Here is the stream https://www.twitch.tv/typohousegames/v/111005286
Idk about individual matches

 

[ぱみゅ]

While we're talking about punish games, I'll say that Salem has been dropping his combos a lot recently (he used to be good at punishing DI reads, except now people has been mixing it up and make it quite difficult).
Pink Fresh has amazing conversions despite not having a great neutral or disadvantaged state himself.

ikep however is in a whole different level over them, his combos are so precise, quick to avoid any sort of DI, and combines aerials for max damage or height for killing off the top.
He makes Bayonetta look truly broken.

 

[FeelMeUp]

While we're talking about punish games, I'll say that Salem has been dropping his combos a lot recently (he used to be good at punishing DI reads, except now people has been mixing it up and make it quite difficult).
Pink Fresh has amazing conversions despite not having a great neutral or disadvantaged state himself.

ikep however is in a whole different level over them, his combos are so precise, quick to avoid any sort of DI, and combines aerials for max damage or height for killing off the top.
He makes Bayonetta look truly broken.

To piggyback onto this, Mr. R noted that the main reason ZeRo takes so much damage and ends up having such close sets with Salem is that he never mixed up his DI. In their last set I believe ZeRo used SDI up on virtually every single combo attempt without bothering to try down, down and away, full away, etc.

 

[BSP]

FeelMeUp a day late, but better late than never.

All of Cloud/X combinations that I'm about to go over are strong, but I'm going to highlight what I think stands out for each combo

Cloud/Sheik: Sheik is the best partner for bailing Cloud out of tough situations with needles and being able to go offstage without much risk herself to save him. She has good handoffs into limit moves. Her aerials have good base knockback in order to start aerial back and forths with Cloud at basically any %. Cloud's F and B throw set up into her tipper U smash, which is huge considering partner throw into Cloud is usually the frightening thing. IF cloud wants to sit back and charge limit, she's probably the best for covering him while he does. A notable downside is how light sheik is compared to diddy and mario, but on the flip side she's probably the least likely to be gimped and has a better disadvantage state.

Cloud/Diddy: Diddy probably has the best handoff throw to cloud with his Uthrow basically not being affected by DI for limit move purposes and his throws having little lag for anyone to punish. Outside of extended sheik combos, he's going to be doing more damage than her in general, and i think he's just as good, if only slightly worse as a support to cloud because banana is still amazing at punishing people for hitting cloud. Diddy has a spike available off of cloud handoffs. It can be more devstating than sheik tippers off of cloud throws, but it's also more situational. In terms of controlling neutral, i'd only put him slightly worse than sheik, but he does have a good bit more staying power with his superior weight.

Cloud/Mario: Mario has the most staying power of the 3, assuming he doesn't get gimped. He also has the most raw kill power, and he has best damage building. A short mario combo in teams can still be an easy 40%, something that sheik and diddy can't replicate as easily. He doesn't get much off of cloud throws unless he has rage Dair online, but like Diddy he has a spike. With cape and FLUDD, I also think Mario is possibly the best equipped to kill people for extending with the intent to KO his cloud partner. One good cape offstage after they try to gimp cloud could easily = death. Mario has the worst handoff potential for cloud, but it's still passable. Other than that, i'd say doubles inherently takes away one of mario's biggest weaknesses (potentially getting walled out, can't get in) so he's a strong character in the format in generally with not much to take advantage of outside of range.

Feel free to add anything, voice disagreements, or argue for stronger teams. I think Cloud/Sheik may edge the others out by a tiny bit though.

 

[Fenny]

While we're talking about punish games, I'll say that Salem has been dropping his combos a lot recently (he used to be good at punishing DI reads, except now people has been mixing it up and make it quite difficult).
Pink Fresh has amazing conversions despite not having a great neutral or disadvantaged state himself.

ikep however is in a whole different level over them, his combos are so precise, quick to avoid any sort of DI, and combines aerials for max damage or height for killing off the top.
He makes Bayonetta look truly broken.

I've been saying for months that ikep is amazing in advantage. Also can't believe I forgot Pink Fresh, who probably has more lethal punishes than Salem does:

At 6:19. He took a stray Nair and proceeded to obliterate his stock.

And another case:

At 9:23.

 

[blackghost]

While we're talking about punish games, I'll say that Salem has been dropping his combos a lot recently (he used to be good at punishing DI reads, except now people has been mixing it up and make it quite difficult).
Pink Fresh has amazing conversions despite not having a great neutral or disadvantaged state himself.

ikep however is in a whole different level over them, his combos are so precise, quick to avoid any sort of DI, and combines aerials for max damage or height for killing off the top.
He makes Bayonetta look truly broken.

i wouldnt say ikep bayo is better than salem or captain zach at this point in any aspect mainly due to how he placed well below others when hes been in the us.
as for salem combo game its slowly happening as many bayo players have said the entire time: di will screw her. in coming months elaborate bayo fair combos (outside fox/roy) will be rare. double and triple witch twist combos will be anomalies. at high level play bayo placment is averaging outside top 8 if her best character skill punish game continues to get weaker she is going to have to modofy her gameplan movong forward.
when was the last time a high level player got a full carry to the cieling by a bayo?