Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nintenpro]

Cyve v Sodrek

Cyve mostly played Bayonetta in this tournament.

 

[Jaguar360]

Xenosaga IV Top 16 (84 entrants, NY)
1. MKLeo
2. 6WX
3. John Numbers
4. Vinnie
5. Mr.E
5. Angel Cortes
7. dekillsage
7. Sinji
9. Ricky G
9. Vivi
9. Stretch
9. Waldo
13. Gomamugitya
13. Edwin
13. Raptor
13. DLT
http://xenozero.challonge.com/xs4s

 

[Das Koopa]

This will be something I discuss in my article (which will likely be published in a couple of days), but it's very important not to get caught up in absolute recency bias. Sometimes it can warranted, but the long-term trends are what's important.

When following polling for the U.S. Election, one of the most interesting aspects was that despite a massive, multi-thousand hour news cycle full of twists and turns, the numbers remained relatively stable, and people (regardless of what candidate they supported) would panic/celebrate over short-term movements as a result of "big events" (debates, controversies, etc.) while ignoring the more significant long-term trends. Polling and character results aren't the same thing, obviously, but the reactions and movements are... oddly similar, and anybody familiar with the election might recognize the relevancy of this.

Gluttony is assured 5th at worst at this tournament, which is more or less the most stacked European tournament of the year in terms of both international talent and European talent. He will walk away with a set on a top 20/10 player, the best achievement a non-Mr. R European has made this year as far as I can tell, and by far the best Wario result in recent memory.

These are all very noteworthy things, but it's important to see if Gluttony can retain this ability over the next few months. If he does, then we'll see a trend that indicates Wario has effectively begun a rebound, but if this is a peak he fails to reach again, this incident could be filed away as a noteworthy blip (but still a blip) on a long-term track record of decline.

 

[verbatim]

It is fast and it kills, yes, but any opponent paying attention is going to know that Pac has the key, and will most likely play back and try to shield when it's thrown. And it is entirely blockable due to P's throwing animation.

You can do true fair -> key on pretty much everyone at the right percent, it's just a narrow window.

 

[Poisonous]

This will be something I discuss in my article (which will likely be published in a couple of days), but it's very important not to get caught up in absolute recency bias. Sometimes it can warranted, but the long-term trends are what's important.

When following polling for the U.S. Election, one of the most interesting aspects was that despite a massive, multi-thousand hour news cycle full of twists and turns, the numbers remained relatively stable, and people (regardless of what candidate they supported) would panic/celebrate over short-term movements as a result of "big events" (debates, controversies, etc.) while ignoring the more significant long-term trends. Polling and character results aren't the same thing, obviously, but the reactions and movements are... oddly similar, and anybody familiar with the election might recognize the relevancy of this.

Gluttony is assured 5th at worst at this tournament, which is more or less the most stacked European tournament of the year in terms of both international talent and European talent. He will walk away with a set on a top 20/10 player, the best achievement a non-Mr. R European has made this year as far as I can tell, and by far the best Wario result in recent memory.

These are all very noteworthy things, but it's important to see if Gluttony can retain this ability over the next few months. If he does, then we'll see a trend that indicates Wario has effectively begun a rebound, but if this is a peak he fails to reach again, this incident could be filed away as a noteworthy blip (but still a blip) on a long-term track record of decline.

The only issue with this is that Gluttony doesn't travel much, and I doubt a tournament with competition of this level will happen again anytime soon in Europe.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Between Leo, Mr. E, Pugwest, False, and other people I don't even need to mention, I'm fairly certain Marth's results are going to get better than they already are

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This will be something I discuss in my article (which will likely be published in a couple of days), but it's very important not to get caught up in absolute recency bias. Sometimes it can warranted, but the long-term trends are what's important.

When following polling for the U.S. Election, one of the most interesting aspects was that despite a massive, multi-thousand hour news cycle full of twists and turns, the numbers remained relatively stable, and people (regardless of what candidate they supported) would panic/celebrate over short-term movements as a result of "big events" (debates, controversies, etc.) while ignoring the more significant long-term trends. Polling and character results aren't the same thing, obviously, but the reactions and movements are... oddly similar, and anybody familiar with the election might recognize the relevancy of this.

Gluttony is assured 5th at worst at this tournament, which is more or less the most stacked European tournament of the year in terms of both international talent and European talent. He will walk away with a set on a top 20/10 player, the best achievement a non-Mr. R European has made this year as far as I can tell, and by far the best Wario result in recent memory.

These are all very noteworthy things, but it's important to see if Gluttony can retain this ability over the next few months. If he does, then we'll see a trend that indicates Wario has effectively begun a rebound, but if this is a peak he fails to reach again, this incident could be filed away as a noteworthy blip (but still a blip) on a long-term track record of decline.

Please listen to this guy people.

Please. You need a lot of long term data before you can actually say a character is moving one direction or another.

 

[KakuCP9]

Why though??

Wario's bike is very good at plowing through weak projectiles when you perform the wheelie allowing him to cut their zoning and get in on them and do Wario things (I. E bite mixups, fart setups etc). That's about the gist of it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wario reminds me of Pac-Man in that he has a lot of tools that can surprise you and wants to keep you out before going for the big kill.

I also think both are criminally underrated.

That said, Gluttony is amazing.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think Wario played for timeouts, janky kills(some jablocks, dash attack stuff, bike waft stuff, etc), and Waft camping is decent but every other variant has always looked garbage to me.

 

[bc1910]

Why though??

I'm not Gheb, but Wario is simply a victim of characters around him being buffed a lot whilst nothing has ever changed about him.

He was pretty good at the start of the game, probably top 20ish, but since then many characters at or below his level (Greninja, Marth, Ike, Robin) have been buffed to higher power levels. Many of them happen to have disjoints which Wario doesn't like, as do most of the DLC characters, all of whom are stronger than Wario except maybe Roy.

I realise it looks odd to lay into Wario after Gluttony's strong performance but I'd just take it for what it is - a strong performance (the only one in recent memory for Wario) by a strong player who likely surprised a lot of people with MU inexperience. As Das Koopa said, let's see some consistency before we start losing our minds.

 

[Routa]

Remember that Glutonny is also a Brawl "legend". He was one of the best Brawl players in Europe (often thought to be top5 Brawl players in Europe). It is not uncommon from him to take out names.

Other things that made Wario great were the vectoring and the shield stun mechanic before. Wario kinda lost all what made him great while everyone els got gud.

 

[Funtroon]

Dubai Dojo ended yesterday (25 - 26 November, 2016) and it featured Japanese players 9B, Kie, Ri-Ma and Kei. Here are the results of the tournament (61 entrants):

1) 9B
2) Kie
3) Ri-Ma
4) SSS
5) Kailex
5) Zash
7)) Kei
7) MyLife
9) Snack
9) Prado
9) Funtroon
9) Sultoon
13) Kaf
13) Marche
13) Professor Molokhia
13) King Wario

For those interested in watching the replay of the two regions colliding, here's the twitch link for the stream replay: https://www.twitch.tv/almajlisgames/videos

 

[Monete]

Here you have yesterdays match Glutony vs Kameme

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Here you have yesterdays match Glutony vs Kameme

Thanks !

 

[Deleted member]

LANWAR X (Ontario, CA - 57 entrants)

1) Ally
2) Venom
3) Chrim Foish
4) Yoh
5) Blacktwins
5) Mistake
7) Holy
7) Sirbeebee
9) Pokecheese
9) Nuke
9) A2E
9) MarioMario
13) Burst
13) GetShulked
13) LetsTickle
13) Levvy

 

[Nobie]

I think it's nice that this is a game where even a low tier can get a decent result once in a while against fairly stacked competition. I haven't checked, but I get the feeling that there wasn't ever a Top 8 Zelda in Brawl unless everyone else playing suddenly came down with cholera.

 

[Luco]

I think it's nice that this is a game where even a low tier can get a decent result once in a while against fairly stacked competition. I haven't checked, but I get the feeling that there wasn't ever a Top 8 Zelda in Brawl unless everyone else playing suddenly came down with cholera.

I know Ed did work with Zelda in Brawl but it was still a bit hit and miss.

 

[Yikarur]

https://www.twitch.tv/gameline

Top8 of SDW (France) is live.
Results so far:
cyve > Sodrek 3-0
Kameme > Longouw 3-1 (very intense set)

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'm curious as to why you think mac
will drop off over time. He has a strong playerbase, relevant results from multiple players over the last 6 months, and has the character potential to keep getting better. His "consistency" problem is inherently solved through player dedication and practice, as it is ultimately on the player to be consistent, not the character, even if his toolset is volatile. I honestly see him as 29th, possibly better, and his results reflect that.

IMO, Little Mac is in a very similar boat to Luigi - good as a situational secondary, but has far too many polarising MUs to make it far on his own.

One good thing that can be said for Little Mac is that the whole 'gets bodied for free offstage' schtick, whilst obviously still a massive problem, doesn't feel quite so crippling nowadays compared to 2014, simply because it's gradually come to light that there are actually quite a few characters who realistically shouldn't be making it back once they're knocked offstage in certain matchups, some of whom are nevertheless surprisingly potent threats.

 

[420quickscoper]

Glutonny is amazing. He beat Kameme and is 1-1 with ANTi right now (beating his Cloud in game 2, two stocking him.)

Edit: Glutonny is up 2-1 after ANTi switched to Mario.

Glutonny 3-2 ANTi

 

[Fenny]

Using the bike to extend the hitbox duration of Waft...

EDIT: Gluttony 3-2 ANTi

 

[Vyrnx]

That was a great set
I can't imagine him doing that well against Komo unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member]

Gluttony takes it 3-2 over ANTi.

Jesus Christ, what IS Wario

 

[ARISTOS]

Glutonny is an incredibly creative player, constant small switch-ups in playstyle as sets wear on.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Kameme 3-1 Mr. R

Kameme ending it with the megaman classic footstool combo too. Mr. R out at fifth

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

Crazy how Kameme continues his perfect record against Mr. R. I guess the Sheik matchup really isn't that terrible for Mega Man anymore.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I was gonna post something like 6ish hours ago cause the low tier talk went on for like 3+ pages and I wanted to chime in but decided not too, guess I will now after what happened at Smashdown.

Don't think anyone (especially ESAM) should be trying to figure out a bottom 5, it's about as hard as choosing the top 5 cause this game is just too inconsistent from rage, 2 stocks or other ingame changes.

Onpu's Zelda as everyone knows just did really well getting 7th place and beating a decent amount of players for his run, a character that's considered bottom 3.
Wario believe it or not I've seen on peoples bottom 5 just like other poor characters like falco Duck hunt Pac-man and so on. With Gluttony beating Anti/Kameme at the most stacked EU tourney to date and outplacing Mr.R.

tl;dr basically being don't think discussion of bottom/top 5 should be discussed cause the game can change up a person's opinion from a few good tournies or the players in their scene doing well. People say D3 is bottom 5 too yet cause I have whiteout doing pretty well at big regionals in TX and Big D sometimes pulls out the character and does well I can't see the character as bottom 5 like others do.

 

[Luco]

Mmhmm, that's definitely a noticeable blip ya got there.

(before anyone gets up in arms I agree more consistent data and trends are key here to actually determining anything now)

But yeah, kind of nice to see the EU having Gluttony champion them again. Would love to see him stay strong and push Wario's meta.

 

[Deleted member]

Even with Gluttony's performance I still don't think Wario is good.

It's no surprise he's able to put in work with the character due to his clutch factor and unusually aggressive play you don't see in a Wario at all like Routa previously mentioned, the others playing mostly defensive/campy. MU inexperience definitely played a part in this, especially with how rare Wario is in America combined with aforementioned factors. We'll see if Gluttony and possibly other Warios are able to keep the momentum, but as of right now I still think the character is low tier or somewhere at the lowest part of mid.

EDIT: tfw Kameme is beating ANTi with Wario
DOUBLE EDIT: rip Kameme

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Losers semis: Kameme 1-3 Anti

That was an intense game 4. Anti clutched it out against Kameme's wario there

EDIT: In losers finals, Anti 3-0d gluttony with ZSS. Seems like anti figured out gluttonys unorthodox playstyle. Gluttony finishes at 3rd.

 

[TDK]

So could someone confidently say Gluttony > Reflex now? Having a win off of two top 10/20 players is better than anything Reflex has done as far as I remember.

 

[HoSmash4]

Wario is good enough. Wario seems to be a bit misunderstood where people believe stalling for waft is the only meaningful thing he can do when Gluto demonstrates what he can do in edgeguarding, neutral and kill setups

 

[Laken64]

Anti vs komo GF
vs
Anti is sealing his fate rn going zard twice
Edit Nm he won game 3 and 4 but boyyyy is zard u throw baaaaad
Edit 2: komo wins 3-2 over anti, went last game

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's u-throw is only great if the opponent doesn't know how to DI. M2 And lucas kill earlier.

 

[Nu~]

I can't leave for a month without some new breakthrough of a previously discarded character.


All I can say is I'm hyped. Gluttony showed that Wario isn't the linear "stall for waft, nuff said" char that many believed he was.

 

[TDK]

Remember when people thought Zard up throw was the best kill throw in the game?

Also, both and get some points for this tournament.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm just happy that is getting some use. I hope he gets more use as time goes on because it'll help tell us what he can do.

 

[Deleted member]

Smashdown World (Paris, FR - 300 entrants)

1) komorikiri
2) ANTi
3) Gluttony
4) Kameme
5) Mr. R
5) cyve
7) Sodrek
7) LoNg0uw
9) Pefo
9) Greil
9) J.Miller
9) BluB
13) vyQ
13) iStudying
13) KayJay
13) Badr
17) Elexiao
17) S1
17) Griffith
17) Pur Gars
17) Pepo
17) Chimera
17) Sabaca
17) Euk

 

[Bowserboy3]

Liking KayJay with at 13th.