Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Yikarur]

I'm convinced that Ganondorf is the worst character in this game. No Mobility at all hurts in almost all relevant areas. Ganondorf only has 1 thing about him and thats power. And power alone sucks if you're grab isn't even threatening.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Ganon's weird. He's a character with one clear strength but numerous flaws severely hold him back. Maybe it's just me, but there's always this "fear" factor I get while fighting him. Ganon has excellent kill power and benefits from rage, and is the only character in the game that wins through a suicide kill. That last bit alone makes me nervous. Playing safe is the best bet against him.

Speaking of Ganon, I found this video a couple of days ago:

Pretty decent suggestions, I think.

 

[Luco]

I'm convinced that Ganondorf is the worst character in this game. No Mobility at all hurts in almost all relevant areas. Ganondorf only has 1 thing about him and thats power. And power alone sucks if you're grab isn't even threatening.

Ganon appears to have more notable wins, at least, even if his raw result strength isn't as good. Thinking about Gungnir vs Taiheta here, for instance.

His mobility sucks but I'd argue he has more of a neutral game than someone like Jiggs. Plenty of characters have to at least partially respect Nair and although the ability to tech choke is a thing, Ganon's best players have found ways to create crazy conversion from either reading techs or punishing missed techs alike (fun fact, missing a flame choke tech as Olimar = guaranteed Dsmash punish). The best way to play against Ganon is to play around his heat map entirely and this is where he suffers (that and having like the flat out worst grab ever just about lol, very Melee Ness-esque in that regard), but if you're versing a player of equivalent skill to yourself, one who can take space and effectively play a game of Chess then yeah have fun with your frame advantage because it probably won't last.

People can smother Ganon or out-lame him in a very similar way to Jiggs. They both make up for it with crazy powerful swing options through Rest or just a powerful kit but Ganon's feels somehow less linear than Jiggs and more threatening, which is why I'm always inclined to place him above her even though her edge-guards rank among the best in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Dedede is def the worst. That character actually wins no matchups. Maybe Puff but even that's being quite generous.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Dedede is def the worst. That character actually wins no matchups. Maybe Puff but even that's being quite generous.

He beats Ganon.

 

[adom4]

He beats Ganon.

no he doesn't lol, it's probably an even MU.
Dedede gets combo'd the hardest out of anyone in the game by Dorf & Ganon can handle his ledge traps pretty decently as well.

 

[JayZee1700]

Ganon appears to have more notable wins, at least, even if his raw result strength isn't as good. Thinking about Gungnir vs Taiheta here, for instance.

His mobility sucks but I'd argue he has more of a neutral game than someone like Jiggs. Plenty of characters have to at least partially respect Nair and although the ability to tech choke is a thing, Ganon's best players have found ways to create crazy conversion from either reading techs or punishing missed techs alike (fun fact, missing a flame choke tech as Olimar = guaranteed Dsmash punish). The best way to play against Ganon is to play around his heat map entirely and this is where he suffers (that and having like the flat out worst grab ever just about lol, very Melee Ness-esque in that regard), but if you're versing a player of equivalent skill to yourself, one who can take space and effectively play a game of Chess then yeah have fun with your frame advantage because it probably won't last.

People can smother Ganon or out-lame him in a very similar way to Jiggs. They both make up for it with crazy powerful swing options through Rest or just a powerful kit but Ganon's feels somehow less linear than Jiggs and more threatening, which is why I'm always inclined to place him above her even though her edge-guards rank among the best in the game.

I agree. is NOT the worst character in the game. His neutral game is decent, equipped with choke chase, high priority moves, and obivously, incredible power. Sure, his abismal mobility is a liability to his competitive viability, but he has good combos even with out good mobility. Anyone who thinks that Ganondorf has no combos needs to see this combo I pulled off here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9x2Eey33Wc

(I personally think this is a very cool combo, and I had nowhere else to brag about it, so I'll just leave it here lol.)

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'd say is the worst character before . Both characters have severe flaws to them, but at least Ganon has a reset button in the form of Aerial Flame Choke. Dedede doesn't have that luxury, and Gordos can severely backfire in certain match ups (like ).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

though has likely THE WORST , competitive potential killing MU's in the game going against.
It's almost in not equal to the vs level of almost comically sad hopelessness once Gannon finds himself in any sort of disadvantage

but to be fair, the aforementioned vs is also pretty up there too

 

[freeziebeatz]

I will be expanding the pie charts and whatnot to just include the entire cast in the future. It'd take a little more time on metachart but the end of year post will be massive and I myself would like to see lower-tier trends. It'll be one of many things I want to cover in my end-of-year analysis at the end of December (or after ZeRo Saga, since that's pretty much the grand finale of 2016 for Sm4sh.)

For example, I do find this to be remarkably depressing:

Mii Brawler: 18
Jigglypuff: 17
Zelda: 15
Ganondorf: 11.5
Dr. Mario: 11
Mii Gunner: 5
Dark Pit: 5
Mii Swordfighter: 0

...And I've updated to the last weekend on the March 15th-Onwards tracking, and all of these characters remain with scores under 20, after 8 months. Even Falco has a score in the 30s.

This is even worse for my 8/16/32/64 results.

Dr. Mario: 7.5
Jigglypuff: 6.5
Mii Brawler: 4
Zelda: 3
Mii Gunner: 2
Dark Pit: 2
Ganondorf: 2
Swordfighter Mii: 0

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I wouldn't put D3 as the worst. He at least has something outside of raw power. He at least has pure recovery distance, some disjoint, a (crappy) command grab, and an actually pretty great ledge trapping game if he manages to get there. Its mostly faint stuff, but its stuff that exists which is more than what a few characters can say.

That would be why he's not showing up in that list of bottom 8 for results: its possible to get at least a little bit done with him. I know there's one guy in BC who does pretty darn well with D3 at least.

Worst character in the game is between Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Mii Swordfighter. Swordfighter depends on if you think its fair to rank them as 1111 characters in a normal tier list with no consideration for their situation or not. With absolutely zero consideration (not even just leaving the Miis unranked), Swordfighter is the worst.

After that its down to Jigglypuff and Ganondorf. Jigglypuff has very marginally more work down with her, but I'd be more scared of fighting a Ganondorf than a Jigglypuff. Ganondorf I at least have to think "don't screw up". I'd probably put Jigglypuff down at worst character in the game.

 

[Luco]

One thing about Jigglypuff is that there is still a bit of a 'don't screw up' factor with her, it's just the setups are kinda clearer with her, she's less explosive than Ganny.

though has likely THE WORST , competitive potential killing MU's in the game going against.
It's almost in not equal to the vs level of almost comically sad hopelessness once Gannon finds himself in any sort of disadvantage

but to be fair, the aforementioned vs is also pretty up there too

Frankly, Ness Rosa isn't as damning as other, more notably bad MUs in this game. Rosa has to get Ness offstage and burn his jumps, which whilst not being the hardest job out there is certainly more work against a skilled player than Bayo rofl stomping her way through most heavyweights with 0-deaths galore :/ . We also have examples of Ness winning that MU at high level.

Just putting it out there that we'd like to not be a meme anymore.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Fair enough Luco . But i been hearing that vs is the new "worst" MU in the game (like around 8-2 Bayo). I do not use Gannondorf , but to any Gannon users here out there think its THAT bad? It seems so in theory

-Unsafe and/or highly telegraphed approach options give an open invitation for Witch Time or to start combos

Terribad mobility means that can likely tack on 10-20% damage with her bullet arts before he can even get close to her
- Becomes basically a sack of meat once starts comboing him due to a combined traits of his size, weight and abysmal disadvantage state

-Gets edgeguared and gimped HARD, since his recovery is also terrible

Really Gannon's only hope seems to be gannoncide offstage or if the Bayo gets careless enough or makes a mistake to be killed early.... which likely wont happen much vs a skilled Bayo

 

[adom4]

Fair enough Luco . But i been hearing that vs is the new "worst" MU in the game (like around 8-2 Bayo). I do not use Gannondorf , but to any Gannon users here out there think its THAT bad? It seems so in theory

-Unsafe and/or highly telegraphed approach options give an open invitation for Witch Time or to start combos

Terribad mobility means that can likely tack on 10-20% damage with her bullet arts before he can even get close to her
- Becomes basically a sack of meat once starts comboing him due to a combined traits of his size, weight and abysmal disadvantage state

-Gets edgeguared and gimped HARD, since his recovery is also terrible

Really Gannon's only hope seems to be gannoncide offstage or if the Bayo gets careless enough or makes a mistake to be killed early.... which likely wont happen much vs a skilled Bayo

It's usually considered to be his worst MU, offstage is completely free & he eats her combos pretty badly, the only few things he has going for him vs her is her height, vulnerability to D-throw combos & that she can kinda struggle killing him without edgeguards, other than that it's pretty bad, still nothing tops 1.1.3/1.1.4 Bayo vs Ganon that MU was legit impossible, at least now Ganon can beat day 1 Bayos lol.
Also i think DDD might have it even worse vs Bayo, idk if he can even DI her death combos.

 

[Fenny]

DDD's Gordos aren't effective because Bayo is effectively a walking, trash talking hitbox. She has literally no reason to ever approach him thanks to her bullets and his complete lack of viable approach options in the MU, and if Dedede gets hit he's eating a truckload of damage or dying.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Still think Puff is the worst in the game. Especially with Cloud around. Cloud v. Puff is horrendous.

 

[Deleted member]

Amazing how at this point in the meta many can't seem to agree on a worst character either. Like Luco mentioned it's a mixup between , which is something I can agree in.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

lolz and The two SEGA reps who in Smash 4 "walking, trash talking hitboxes" using their specials/ariels fly all around so a good number of the roster cant deal with it. When they get you the combo you for mad damage and Jank kill you at the top of the stage and who are both may very well be part of the very best characters in the game

 

[Wintermelon43]

Amazing how at this point in the meta many can't seem to agree on a worst character either. Like Luco mentioned it's a mixup between , which is something I can agree in.

If you're gonna mention , then you have to include . I personally think there's no contest at all that it's ganon assuming 1111 Miis don't count considering Ganon is a trainwreck, but 's worse than and so you shouldn't mention them but not mention

 

[SaltyKracka]

Fair enough Luco . But i been hearing that vs is the new "worst" MU in the game (like around 8-2 Bayo). I do not use Gannondorf , but to any Gannon users here out there think its THAT bad? It seems so in theory

-Unsafe and/or highly telegraphed approach options give an open invitation for Witch Time or to start combos

Terribad mobility means that can likely tack on 10-20% damage with her bullet arts before he can even get close to her
- Becomes basically a sack of meat once starts comboing him due to a combined traits of his size, weight and abysmal disadvantage state

-Gets edgeguared and gimped HARD, since his recovery is also terrible

Really Gannon's only hope seems to be gannoncide offstage or if the Bayo gets careless enough or makes a mistake to be killed early.... which likely wont happen much vs a skilled Bayo

It's not really new per se. It's been the worst matchup in the game since Bayo came out, and it was even worse with release Bayo's braindead brokenness.

That said, you mostly have the correct idea about why the matchup is so terrible, so I'm simply going to add a couple of notes that accentuate the frustration.

-Most notably, Bayonetta's hitboxes and ridiculous disjoint just plain beat Ganon's moves. If ever they both have hitboxes out at the same time, the occasional rare trade is the best Ganon can hope for. And this spreads across all of their movesets, because lol the witch gets to use dark magic to have extra huge hitboxes and basically invincible moves while the gorram King of Evil gets a couple of puffs of purple particles that mean nothing in particular.

-Bayo gets to eat Ganon offstage for free, but the main reason is a confluence of factors. Yes, Ganon's recovery is linear trash with neither hitbox nor threat worth speaking of, but he doesn't just lose for free offstage to most of the cast with even having to deal with that. The thing that makes it so impossible for Ganon is that...well, let me be blunt. Bayo's sex kicks are absolutely ********. End of line.

 

[KenMeister]

I'm not particularly the best Ganon out there, I've used him in money matches/friendlies and that's about it, but from my experience fighting Saj I have one term to describe why the MU is unwinnable: Bullet Climax. Simply put, if Bayo has a lead, there's nothing really stopping Bayo from just camping with it against the ledge anticipating/reacting to an approach while Ganon dawdles through it like a sitting duck. =\

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

I thought the worst matchup was Pac vs Mac. The hydrant and trampoline prevent mac from doing anything at all, right?

 

[|RK|]

If you're gonna mention , then you have to include . I personally think there's no contest at all that it's ganon assuming 1111 Miis don't count considering Ganon is a trainwreck, but 's worse than and so you shouldn't mention them but not mention

I think Jiggs is threatening in no way whatsoever. Maybe it's because we have an up and coming Zelda in MDVA, but I think she's superior to Puff. The thing about Puff is this - all she has is rest. Her airspeed allows her to edge guard reasonably well, but it's still not on the same tier as Pika, Sheik, or Bayo. Or even Marcina, IMO. She can go pretty deep, but her edge guarding feels linear.

Additionally, Puff has very few conversions off of her hits. Resetting to neutral against her is quite simple in my experience. Zelda has traps, consistent killpower and a way to escape pressure. Phantom is actually a pretty useful tool, and ledge-cancelled teleports are great burst mix-ups, too.

I genuinely think Jiggs is out and out the worst.

I'm not particularly the best Ganon out there, I've used him in money matches/friendlies and that's about it, but from my experience fighting Saj I have one term to describe why the MU is unwinnable: Bullet Climax. Simply put, if Bayo has a lead, there's nothing really stopping Bayo from just camping with it against the ledge anticipating/reacting to an approach while Ganon dawdles through it like a sitting duck. =\

Hm. I thought Ganon could Wizkick through Bullet Climax after the buff?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I think Jiggs is threatening in no way whatsoever. Maybe it's because we have an up and coming Zelda in MDVA, but I think she's superior to Puff. The thing about Puff is this - all she has is rest. Her airspeed allows her to edge guard reasonably well, but it's still not on the same tier as Pika, Sheik, or Bayo. Or even Marcina, IMO. She can go pretty deep, but her edge guarding feels linear.

Additionally, Puff has very few conversions off of her hits. Resetting to neutral against her is quite simple in my experience. Zelda has traps, consistent killpower and a way to escape pressure. Phantom is actually a pretty useful tool, and ledge-cancelled teleports are great burst mix-ups, too.

I genuinely think Jiggs is out and out the worst.



Hm. I thought Ganon could Wizkick through Bullet Climax after the buff?

Jigglypuff has way more than just rest going for her (such as good aierals and great edgeguarding). Her matchup spread is WAY better than Ganon's too; Ganon gets destroyed by pretty much every top tier and most high tiers; even some mid tiers beat him by a good amount.

Also, who's this upcoming Zelda?

 

[TDK]

I think Jiggs is threatening in no way whatsoever. Maybe it's because we have an up and coming Zelda in MDVA, but I think she's superior to Puff. The thing about Puff is this - all she has is rest. Her airspeed allows her to edge guard reasonably well, but it's still not on the same tier as Pika, Sheik, or Bayo. Or even Marcina, IMO. She can go pretty deep, but her edge guarding feels linear.

Additionally, Puff has very few conversions off of her hits. Resetting to neutral against her is quite simple in my experience. Zelda has traps, consistent killpower and a way to escape pressure. Phantom is actually a pretty useful tool, and ledge-cancelled teleports are great burst mix-ups, too.

I genuinely think Jiggs is out and out the worst.



Hm. I thought Ganon could Wizkick through Bullet Climax after the buff?

Last I checked it'd hit Ganon's head first because of the angle of the bullets. I'll let a Ganon main confirm it though.

Also, Beefy Smash Doods has some new info for us all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GAg33X9qvs

This is pretty interesting, and begs to be broken. Thoughts?

 

[|RK|]

Jigglypuff has way more than just rest going for her (such as good aierals and great edgeguarding). Her matchup spread is WAY better than Ganon's too; Ganon gets destroyed by pretty much every top tier and most high tiers; even some mid tiers beat him by a good amount.

Also, who's this upcoming Zelda?

Jiggs is often said to have good aerials and great edge guarding... But I don't see how they're that good in comparison to the rest of the cast.

Also, who does Jiggs do better against than Ganon, really?

And Dante. He's about mid-level-ish right now. I know Seagull has said he's pretty good as well. I'd wait to see more from him in the coming year or so. Pretty good at showcasing Zelda's various tricks. I now understand why Zelda's want Phantom to be store able, for example.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Jiggs is often said to have good aerials and great edge guarding... But I don't see how they're that good in comparison to the rest of the cast.

Also, who does Jiggs do better against than Ganon, really?

And Dante. He's about mid-level-ish right now. I know Seagull has said he's pretty good as well. I'd wait to see more from him in the coming year or so. Pretty good at showcasing Zelda's various tricks. I now understand why Zelda's want Phantom to be store able, for example.

Almost every character in the cast, including and so on.

 

[TDK]

Also, who does Jiggs do better against than Ganon, really?

Just to name two right there.

 

[KenMeister]

I think Jiggs is threatening in no way whatsoever. Maybe it's because we have an up and coming Zelda in MDVA, but I think she's superior to Puff. The thing about Puff is this - all she has is rest. Her airspeed allows her to edge guard reasonably well, but it's still not on the same tier as Pika, Sheik, or Bayo. Or even Marcina, IMO. She can go pretty deep, but her edge guarding feels linear.

Additionally, Puff has very few conversions off of her hits. Resetting to neutral against her is quite simple in my experience. Zelda has traps, consistent killpower and a way to escape pressure. Phantom is actually a pretty useful tool, and ledge-cancelled teleports are great burst mix-ups, too.

I genuinely think Jiggs is out and out the worst.



Hm. I thought Ganon could Wizkick through Bullet Climax after the buff?

If your opponent is anticipating Ganon's limited options she can simply just react and punish, or just outmaneuver around him to the other ledge and reset neutral

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Tbh Jiggs is super underrated, low tier for sure but far from the worst character in the game. Her aerial mobility and crouch makes it hard to camp her and bair gives her a decent spacing option. Her long lasting high bkb aerials makes it a nightmare to be offstage against her and she has kill confirms at ~40. Oh and not to mention her disadvantage state being much MUCH better than nearly everyone around her rank, that makes life a lot easier against top/high tiers that thrive on abusing the low tiers poor disadvantage.

She has potential, a lot more than Dorf and DDD at least

 

[Deleted member]

Tbh Jiggs is super underrated, low tier for sure but far from the worst character in the game. Her aerial mobility and crouch makes it hard to camp her and bair gives her a decent spacing option. Her long lasting high bkb aerials makes it a nightmare to be offstage against her and she has kill confirms at ~40. Oh and not to mention her disadvantage state being much MUCH better than nearly everyone around her rank, that makes life a lot easier against top/high tiers that thrive on abusing the low tiers poor disadvantage.

She has potential, a lot more than Dorf and DDD at least

There's also the fact she has relatively decent matchups.

Jiggs will likely still be bottom 3 throughout the meta but I'm still adamant Dedede is worse than her. Dedede only really gets results for the most part because he has things that are "tough" to get used to/work around at first (his bair, dsmash being surprisingly fast, being intimidated by Gordos) but otherwise the character can't do **** to you.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

*grabs popcorn as he watches people argue who's worst in the meta* to be fair i've gotten crushed by both when my shield broke on ganon or puff's moves (fsmash for ganon, pound attack for puff)

 

[Mega-Spider]

*grabs popcorn as he watches people argue who's worst in the meta* to be fair i've gotten crushed by both when my shield broke on ganon or puff's moves (fsmash for ganon, pound attack for puff)

It's agreed that , , , and are bottom 5 material. If he was allowed, Mii Swordfighter would be the undisputed worst character in the game.

 

[Das Koopa]

Maybe I was wrong and Falco really is bottom 5 material

 

[|RK|]

Almost every character in the cast, including and so on.

Touché. I suppose my point is "does she do *that* much better? Because Ganon does better (to my knowledge) against characters like MK and Mario. And don't characters like Mewtwo and Diddy destroy both characters (albeit in different ways)?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Maybe I was wrong and Falco really is bottom 5 material

I'd say that the idea of a bottom 5 is less relevant than that of the undisputed bottom 3 ...and Mii Swordfighter (whom nobody so much as plays, lol)

 

[KenMeister]

Anyone who says Ganon is worse than DDD is probably still falling for gimmicks at this point in the meta. c:

 

[|RK|]

Anyone who says Ganon is worse than DDD is probably still falling for gimmicks at this point in the meta. c:

In DDDs defense, he doesn't get gimped as easily. So gimmicks notwithstanding, I can see him being more frustrating in the hands of a good player.

 

[TheJolteon]

Anyone who says Ganon is worse than DDD is probably still falling for gimmicks at this point in the meta. c:

DDD has actual stuff going for him such as hardly getting gimped and a projectile and decent range. Ganon has hardly any of this

 

[Deleted member]

DDD has actual stuff going for him such as hardly getting gimped and a projectile and decent range. Ganon has hardly any of this

Dedede has a pretty bad ledgesnap that people don't exploit enough.

He has a projectile, but it's negated in neutral by literally every move in the game save for two. There's also not to mention his awful hitboxes on nearly all his moves.