Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ethan7]

9th: DunnoBro

DunnoBro this isn't you, is it? SmashWiki says this person also mains , which you main.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea us smashboards nerds can top tourneys too I guess

 

[Shaya]

Marth/Lucina vs Diddy is following a similar path to Brawl - I think the match up is arguably even and there's points to why it's actually in the swordies favour.
Falchion vertical spacing and their aerials actually outdisjointing Diddy foot (and being barely shorter range) makes things really really difficult for Diddy if you aren't an idiot about Bananas (most good players have finally switched onto the fact that items can limit a character's options a lot).

Also Bayonetta is still broken. Watching her meta progress** makes me sad rather than excited and that's completely unique to me in this game or any smash game ever... other than Ice Climbers.
The way her 'weaknesses' have been balanced out/compensated elsewhere (no end lag and high hitbox durations, extreme combo potential beyond specials that don't impact the intended 'lag of it all' weakness) is some of the worst design decisions ever seen in a Smash game.
At least the argument of "HURR DURR JUST SDI" is becoming laughable (guess we'll have to live with "ADAPT"**. Bless).

** - these notions are mutually inclusive.

 

[blackghost]

very good weekend of smash.
hey guys bayonetta is broken but you know zero wins this weekend.
great adaptation from zero and olimar needs some discussion.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Luigi with old dthrow, cyclone, AND fireballs would be fine vs current sheik since fireballs now share needle range. People forget his neutral was wayyy better when you couldn't shield fireballs.

Rosa and cloud could be issues, but his raw kill potential would likely keep those even. (With prepatch fireballs I can't see cloud being too bad)

TDK : I went all mario. Forfeited to raptor after losing to PF. Too salty about only losing to DLC lately. Feels like fighting prepatch luigi.

Dingus Joe uses GnW. Won his pools with game 3 double 9 lol

You did not forefit lol. You lost 2-0 then Tant said it's best of 5 and we could finish it and you said you didn't want to. Not the same thing brah >;o

 

[DunnoBro]

I think a large factor in how people don't notice Bayo's bustedness yet when they did earlier is because dABK was just an obnoxious way of playing neutral with absolutely no semblance of balanced gameplay vs the majority of the casts neutrals. (Plus more consistent roofie combos)

I think a very valid comparison is to sheik. Due to her complexity and reliance on frametraps, it took a while for people to realize just how well she covered the alleged "safe" options.

Sheik originally had TRUE combos off dthrow/fthrow which killed due to the strength of uair/bf. It was very obviously broken, you couldn't do a thing, and even at higher percents you could airdodge she could just fair. It killed early. (70-90) And was easy to start/do being off grab.

They took the true combos away, nerfing uair/bf to the point they couldn't usually kill off true combos. But, this still leaved frame traps. Which, on it's own wasn't a huge deal. (Especially during that meta) But, as neutrals improved and people become more proficient with frame traps/airdodge reading, we soon realized sheik's ability to just keep safely playing neutral with needles, inherently setting up for grabs and trying for these frame traps was an issue.

Bair/Vanish/Needle lag and many overall tweaks later and we come to the conclusion her overall safety shouldn't be combined with such consistent kill confirms.

I'd compare pre-patch bayo (specifically the dABK/dtilt neutral) to the true, OBVIOUSLY broken true combo killing off grab sheik. And current bayo somewhere between 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 sheik. Somewhat ambiguous, due to the necessity of actual player skill to bring out the issues with mix-ups, character dependence, reading DI, and general familiarity and study of the characters options.

And onto witch time, this move isn't just busted on it's own. Bayo's WHOOOOLE kit is what makes this busted.

Normally when you get hit, your options are airdodge, attack, and often jump/burst away somehow.

Bayo's aerials auto-linger to cover airdodge, not to mention witch twist for extra height.

Attack? Witch time.

Jumping remains an immediately safe option, however with bar none the highest burst mobility in the game and the best edgeguarding in the game, this can easily turn on you.

It's so mindnumbing when people slur "well he shouldn't have thrown out a move" but that's the thing. ALL THE OTHER OPTIONS ARE JUST AS PUNISHABLE AT TOP LEVEL PLAY. You HAVE to attack eventually, and just dying because of this low risk HIGH reward move is absurd.

Ryu's focus really isn't much worse than witch time in the risk/reward department. But, due to his lack of mobility he doesn't really give them a reason to be dumb and land into him with attacks. Bayo does.

You did not forefit lol. You lost 2-0 then Tant said it's best of 5 and we could finish it and you said you didn't want to. Not the same thing brah >;o

I just wasn't in the mood to go to a game 5 with your campy ass haha

But yea fine you got me. Good stuff tonight.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Glitch 2 Top 8 : 196 entrants.

1st: SS l Mr. E
2nd: VGBC l Pink Fresh
3rd: Tweek
4th: GOTE l 8BitMan
5th: HO3K l John Numbers
5th: IQHQ l Raptor
7th: 7S l Puppeh
7th: Feel Tension
9th: Promaelia
9th: JeBB
9th: DunnoBro
9th: VeXx l Seagull Joe
13th: Dingus Joe
13th: Mekos
13th: LoF l False
13th: Circa l 6WX

x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1

@Das Koopa

I also used and .

 

[Ethan7]

I also used and .

Did you win any sets using them? Anyways, good job!

 

[TDK]

I also used and .

Did you win any games with them? If you did, I'll add them.

 

[NairWizard]

Bayonetta's so-called brokenness is just a game of numbers. Her risk-reward trades are overtuned in basically every matchup to the point where I wonder if she even loses any? Diddy and Sheik are the only likely suspects and it's been shown that a Salem-level Bayo can give ZeRo-level Diddy trouble.

The only characters who significantly outreward Bayonetta or can power through her disgusting disadvantage state also lose terribly to her in neutral (for instance Ryu gets manhandled in neutral by Bayo). Her combination of advantage+disadvantage+neutral is the most oppressive in the game and she's currently the clearest choice for #1 at least in my eyes. The only other character who can claim a crazy spread in all three game states is Sheik, but Bayo's numbers + witch time are a solid differentiator in that comparison.

 

[blackghost]

regarding bayo I find a common denominator I'm my local scene:the players that play also traditional fighters aren't struggling with her as much. just a local observation.
players aren't correctly punishing her end lag. if she is active in the air she has a large emount of end lag. I watched the wf, wsf, and gf sets with pink and he's not scared to land anywhere even when he's unsafe because he knows he won't be punished. and before someone says it's witchtime bait remember that he'd have to witchtime before he hots the ground. it's not the correct punish to swing before she lands. and it's never correct to charge a smash attack.
as for people saying the di Argument is invalid watching all the sets I could I saw people escape in the match where zach was eliminated he couldn't get the kill at all. even pink had issues confirming kills without witchtime assistance at times.
DunnoBro even if she b reverses witch twist can't you sdi down or up?
and someone corect me if I'm wrong but most of these extremely rewarding combos for bayo start with heel slide right? that move frame wise, startup, and safety is horrible outside of a tech chase there is no reason for that to hit you and no reason why she shouldn't eat a punish for it. pink fresh was sliding around like it was her sprint. it needs to be punished.
anyway olimar what does the future hold?

 

[DunnoBro]

DunnoBro even if she b reverses witch twist can't you sdi down or up?

Depends on the spacing if it will truly help. Assuming they get mixed up, and the spacing and percents are right, death is unavoidable.

and someone corect me if I'm wrong but most of these extremely rewarding combos for bayo start with heel slide right?

Pretty sure that's one of her least rewarding... At least as a cap. I don't think I've ever seen heel slides convert to stocks outside of reading airdodges for bairs and junk. Though it DOES seem to do the most damage consistently.

Dtilt is by far the most rewarding from what I've seen. Most of the really absurd stocks I've seen start off dtilt, plus it just sets up for a raw killing uair at higher percents.

not scared to land anywhere even when he's unsafe because he knows he won't be punished. and before someone says it's witchtime bait remember that he'd have to witchtime before he hots the ground.

You're right, it's not witch time ALONE. It's dABK (which is still a safe counterlanding, although somewhat unrewarding) her landing aerials, and the ability to mix up her landing with witch twist and ABK (unless they've ALL been used up. Which is rare if the opponent's somehow on the ground)

There was a point in wsf pink killed mr. e off when he was baiting an airdodge/witch time (I think after a throw?) but Pink just witch twisted about fullhop height instead and roofied him to the top. So it isn't just attacking, even being in position to cover her other options can result in death so it's rarely worth to challenge her.

If you play close attention, the vaaaast majority of Mr. E's stocks taken on pink are off ledgeguards and fsmash.

and no reason why she shouldn't eat a punish for it. pink fresh was sliding around like it was her sprint.

Have you looked at the frame data?

Perhaps it didn't make much sense to you.

But heel1 has roughly 40 frames of recovery. Easily punishable, right?

However, heel2 only has 19. Meaning heel2 is actually much safer, and inherently a mix-up. 19 frames is also the average reaction time for smash 4 (13 frames + 6 input lag) Couple that in with the startup of the intended punish move, shield drop/landing frames (assuming they crossed you up) it isn't really that punishable a move.

Very often punishing players for trying to grab it by hitting them raw, or getting shield/witch twisted if they lack the burst mobility attack to punish it quick enough to avoid the possibility of shield.

Couple that with how much bayo gets off either of these failed punishes, it's often pretty scary to even try punishing it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Marth/Lucina vs Diddy is following a similar path to Brawl - I think the match up is arguably even and there's points to why it's actually in the swordies favour.
Falchion vertical spacing and their aerials actually outdisjointing Diddy foot (and being barely shorter range) makes things really really difficult for Diddy if you aren't an idiot about Bananas (most good players have finally switched onto the fact that items can limit a character's options a lot).

Also Bayonetta is still broken. Watching her meta progress** makes me sad rather than excited and that's completely unique to me in this game or any smash game ever... other than Ice Climbers.
The way her 'weaknesses' have been balanced out/compensated elsewhere (no end lag and high hitbox durations, extreme combo potential beyond specials that don't impact the intended 'lag of it all' weakness) is some of the worst design decisions ever seen in a Smash game.
At least the argument of "HURR DURR JUST SDI" is becoming laughable (guess we'll have to live with "ADAPT"**. Bless).

** - these notions are mutually inclusive.

Or we can bring back in the Bayonetta Ban discussion so we don't re-add a poison into the meta like we did in Brawl if she gets that bad in order to keep the game's lifespan longer.

*runs away dodging various thrown objects*

 

[Seagull Joe]

Did you win any sets using them? Anyways, good job!

Did you win any games with them? If you did, I'll add them.

I beat my first opponent in pools (Yez a ) with because I dislike vs a lot. I beat Black Yoshi a with after he beat my game 1. I went the rest of the tourney except game 2 against Zephyr where I went , but I lost that game.

 

[BSP]

NairWizard While you're around, did you get a chance to watch either Ally vs Komorikiri or ANTi vs ZeRo from Abadango Saga?

I remember you saying that running from / walling out / etc. Mario constantly isn't feasible or something along those lines, but I'm not so sure. He doesn't seem to have a good answer to the opponent moving back whenever he tries to come in, then throwing out some hitbox he can't punish because of range or wait for him to extend -> counter poke because he has to put himself at risk to hit you in the first place (or mixing in walk / run up and grab because the Mario player is already trying to consider catching you for a retreat).

Don't get me wrong, Mario's still good because most of the cast can't actually do that consistently + he's a monster once he gets in with momentum, but I do feel like his approach or lack thereof is a flaw we can't gloss over. Compared to the other top tiers, his landing issues can be quite apparent sometimes too.

 

[DunnoBro]

NairWizard
He doesn't seem to have a good answer to the opponent moving back whenever he tries to come in, then throwing out some hitbox he can't punish because of range or wait for him to extend -> counter poke because he has to put himself at risk to hit you in the first place (or mixing in walk / run up and grab because the Mario player is already trying to consider catching you for a retreat).

*Not sure what solid sense's answer is, but for me it's Fludd. It pushes harder if the opponent is retreating, in the air(or empty hopping) in endlag, or in a special animation. (i.e not approaching)

Especially potent at higher percents (both you and them as it scales with rage) when there's more demand for safeness.

Not sure if you can call it a "good" answer, but it is his only safe, guaranteed way to deal with something like spaced zss or bayo bairs without calling out the mix-ups all across the stage.

 

[Fenny]

Lord it's so easy for people to say something is broken these days.

If Bayo's not killing people at 0% or getting people into utterly hopeless situations for free then she ain't broke.

She's still VERY good - top 5 imo. Her punish game is unreal, her recovery and disadvantage is stellar and she has a solid neutral. But she also has subpar frame data and mobility outside her aerial specials, a terrible dodge outside of Bat Within (which is worthless against grabs), dies early, stuggles to approach against people who can keep her out worth a damn and you'll literally be safe against most of her options if you just shield and bait out Witch Times, which are too high reward for Bayo players to refrain from using. Btw, 'JUST SDI' is a valid excuse - Bayo's combo damage will be substantially reduced if you just learn to get out of her specials properly, and considering that she relies quite a lot on combos to get kills or mega damage, it's a boon to have the abilitiy to cut them short.

Just like most top tiers, she has losing MUs - while the usage of Witch Time can be the deciding factor in matches, playing smart against it does too. Just like how you need to play smart against any other top tier if you dont want to get blown up. Characters like Shiek, Diddy and Mario who can exploit her weaknesses that you say aren't enough is how players like Ally, VoiD and ZeRo are capable of bringing decisive wins against other top level Bayos. I mean did VoiD not force SALEM to switch out to Lucina in the last KTAR?

Being overtuned in certain areas is what makes a top tier a top tier. But I fail to see a single character in this game anymore who classifies as being broken.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

While people are talking about Mr. E, for what its worth I met him at a tourney last week and he agreed with me that Roy is super good and just nobody is doing anything with the character.

Really I just wanted an excuse to say I met Mr. E.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Lord it's so easy for people to say something is broken these days.

If Bayo's not killing people at 0% or getting people into utterly hopeless situations for free then she ain't broke.

She's still VERY good - top 5 imo. Her punish game is unreal, her recovery and disadvantage is stellar and she has a solid neutral. But she also has subpar frame data and mobility outside her aerial specials, a terrible dodge outside of Bat Within (which is worthless against grabs), dies early, stuggles to approach against people who can keep her out worth a damn and you'll literally be safe against most of her options if you just shield and bait out Witch Times, which are too high reward for Bayo players to refrain from using. Btw, 'JUST SDI' is a valid excuse - Bayo's combo damage will be substantially reduced if you just learn to get out of her specials properly, and considering that she relies quite a lot on combos to get kills or mega damage, it's a boon to have the abilitiy to cut them short.

Just like most top tiers, she has losing MUs - while the usage of Witch Time can be the deciding factor in matches, playing smart against it does too. Just like how you need to play smart against any other top tier if you dont want to get blown up. Characters like Shiek, Diddy and Mario who can exploit her weaknesses that you say aren't enough is how players like Ally, VoiD and ZeRo are capable of bringing decisive wins against other top level Bayos. I mean did VoiD not force SALEM to switch out to Lucina in the last KTAR?

Being overtuned in certain areas is what makes a top tier a top tier. But I fail to see a single character in this game anymore who classifies as being broken.

To piggyback off of this.
VoiD's Sheik is to Bayo as ZeRo's Diddy is to ZSS.
Every Sheik should take notes from the guy, as he makes the MU look impossible.

But to add onto this: Bayo actually kinda sucks at killing. I mean, she REALLY sucks at killing. If she can't gimp the hell out of your character the chances are you'll either die to a random bair that you ran into at super high %, a WT punish that you ran into because you forgot the character has very few answers for PP shield/pivot grab/dash grab, or fthrow at 150-180.
But ofc everyone ignores this because they prefer to conveniently ignore her weaknesses and call her broken.
Trash rolls, trash ground mobility, mediocre options out of dash, horrid grounded frame data, relatively useless jab, airdodge that ends up letting you keep getting hit a lot of the time, fairly simple to outcamp if you have the range for it(basically just outrange dtilt bullets and be short enough to reasonably get below Climax, really), etc.
Then a lot of MUs she can legitimately struggle in that people pretend don't exist like:
MM, Lucas, Tink, Mario, Olimar, Villager, etc.

In a way she reminds me a lot of how Melee Fox players feel about Samus. Except instead of it just being the Fox players whining about not being able to execute silly braindead strategies & techskill, it's almost every Smash 4 player whining for pressing buttons aimlessly and actually getting hit/killed for it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Prepatch luigi struggled with MUs and had weaknesses too. (A lot of the ones you listed) We're not overlooking them, we're stating they are overly compensated. (Most specifically the 'lag of it all' mechanic)

And trouble killing? I won't dismiss the theory raw but I think you're oversimplifying her neutral (and overestimating everyone else's with options like pp shield)

Her ledge coverage seems fine and her ability to frame trap for edgeguards offstage seems to extend to pretty much every character. Are you denying she's the best edgeguarder in the game? While edgeguards are somewhat weak in this game, that alone should say a lot about her kill potential.

And how does void make the MU look unwinnable? It was game 3 last hit with PF at smashcon. Hell if pf just baited the airdodge on the last dtilt he would've won. What showing are you referring to?

Edit: And Void also got 3:0 bracket reset by JK's bayo and brought it back in a game 5 set 2. And those are the only somewhat recent examples of void vs bayo I've seen.

 

[Rizen]

To piggyback off of this.
VoiD's Sheik is to Bayo as ZeRo's Diddy is to ZSS.
Every Sheik should take notes from the guy, as he makes the MU look impossible.

But to add onto this: Bayo actually kinda sucks at killing. I mean, she REALLY sucks at killing. If she can't gimp the hell out of your character the chances are you'll either die to a random bair that you ran into at super high %, a WT punish that you ran into because you forgot the character has very few answers for PP shield/pivot grab/dash grab, or fthrow at 150-180.
But ofc everyone ignores this because they prefer to conveniently ignore her weaknesses and call her broken.
Trash rolls, trash ground mobility, mediocre options out of dash, horrid grounded frame data, relatively useless jab, airdodge that ends up letting you keep getting hit a lot of the time, fairly simple to outcamp if you have the range for it(basically just outrange dtilt bullets and be short enough to reasonably get below Climax, really), etc.
Then a lot of MUs she can legitimately struggle in that people pretend don't exist like:
MM, Lucas, Tink, Mario, Olimar, Villager, etc.

In a way she reminds me a lot of how Melee Fox players feel about Samus. Except instead of it just being the Fox players whining about not being able to execute silly braindead strategies & techskill, it's almost every Smash 4 player whining for pressing buttons aimlessly and actually getting hit/killed for it.

I'm not saying Bayo should be nerfed or anything but have you watched Salem's bayo? She doesn't suck at killing, lol. Look at this set (13:50 in particular) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvaCf5uV2ek&index=44&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3hi5z_YiPlnSNDab4vMJIK
Bayo is really good and the weaknesses you mentioned are largely negated.

"Trash rolls" all bayo's dodges have Bat within and in the case of air/spot dodges it's frame 1. "Trash ground mobility" um, sideB. Horrid ground frame data is made up for by freakishly large range due to non-projectile bullet arts and frame 4 upB that's her main combo starter and practically unpunishable. Her jab does like 20% and has great range. Her airdodge is great at avoiding 1 hit up airs because bat within. "Simple to outcamp" her burst options to combos are fantastic and bullet arts give her incredible range plus she has bullet climax for offstage, platforms and tall characters.

You are seriously underestimating Bayo.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Prepatch luigi struggled with MUs and had weaknesses too. (A lot of the ones you listed) We're not overlooking them, we're stating they are overly compensated. (Most specifically the 'lag of it all' mechanic)

The prepatch Luigi comparisons are tiring. Although the characters have similarities, the game's powerlevel is nothing like it was back then and Bayonetta's gameplan is nowhere near as fail-safe as his was.

And trouble killing? I won't dismiss the theory raw but I think you're oversimplifying her neutral (and overestimating everyone else's with options like pp shield)

I'm not really oversimplifying her neutral at all. I barely even spoke on it. Her killing options in general are very telegraphed and easy to avoid and it's not very difficult to survive onstage to max rage percents against her. I'd even say that if you're not constantly getting WT'd, you survive longer against Bayo than you do Sheik.
But I will say a few interactions like dtilt uair, dair oos, and the startup on bair+its angle and range are downright ridiculous.

Her ledge coverage seems fine and her ability to frame trap for edgeguards offstage seems to extend to pretty much every character. Are you denying she's the best edgeguarder in the game? While edgeguards are somewhat weak in this game, that alone should say a lot about her kill potential.

No, of course I'm not denying she's the best edgeguarder in the game. Where is that coming from.
My post was more to say "if you're not getting gimped, you're surviving for a good while."

A lot of people's deaths against Bayonetta are due to really scrubby mistakes like:

• Trying to shieldgrab spaced/fadeback bair and nair then getting punished for it. Just know what moves you can, can't, or SHOULDN'T try to punish.
• Using aerials with the exact same tempo over and over again and handing the Bayo free WTs. A great thing about Smash in general is how many ways you can alter your timings. Fastfall, no fastfall, rising with fastfall, rising with no fastfall, tomahawks, etc. Really no reason people's aerials should be getting WT'd as much as they are.
• Using the same dash in approaches every time and giving the Bayo free WTs
• Going for fraudulent overextensions that aren't guaranteed and expecting to not die for it. If someone will usually airdodge out, treat WT as an airdodge and do the 50/50s or strings that way.
• Tapping her shield incorrectly. You deserve the Witch Twist/WT OoS punish for it, honestly. This hasn't changed at all.
• Whiffing grabs then getting bair'd/dtilted/utilted. This one is more understandable and can only really be solved by....not....missing?

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'm not saying Bayo should be nerfed or anything but have you watched Salem's bayo? She doesn't suck at killing, lol. Look at this set (13:50 in particular) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvaCf5uV2ek&index=44&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3hi5z_YiPlnSNDab4vMJIK
Bayo is really good and the weaknesses you mentioned are largely negated.

"Trash rolls" all bayo's dodges have Bat within and in the case of air/spot dodges it's frame 1. "Trash ground mobility" um, sideB. Horrid ground frame data is made up for by freakishly large range due to non-projectile bullet arts and frame 4 upB that's her main combo starter and practically unpunishable. Her jab does like 20% and has great range. Her airdodge is great at avoiding 1 hit up airs because bat within. "Simple to outcamp" her burst options to combos are fantastic and bullet arts give her incredible range plus she has bullet climax for offstage, platforms and tall characters.

You are seriously underestimating Bayo.

Use a set that isn't one of Bayo's most lopsided matchups to try and prove your point.
Literally one of the only matchups that makes her seem flawless LOL. You don't see DDD mains posting videos of them playing vs MM and calling Lemons broken.

Anyway, Bats Within still takes damage meaning she isn't entirely safe like other characters are. And the FAF on them is noticeably awful.

Side B doesn't fix her horrid ground mobility. You can literally just shield it and punish. See the bullets come out? Cool, kick's coming. Punish after. Don't see it? Cool, punish immediately. I don't see how one of the easiest moves to react to that moves at a fairly slow speed would be a fix to her garbage ground mobility.


Her jab is, what, f8? f9? Isn't that Shulk and Palutena tier? You know, the jabs we constantly say are absolute trash data wise? Not only that, but it's easily punishable on whiff unlike Palutena's.
If there was anything I would've mentioned for your side to help the argument it'd be Utilt. That's a stupid grounded move she has. But since it's a tilt it doesn't help with her options out of dash at all. She has to be practically hugging people to actually do any damage out of it. Unless you consider neutral B a legitimate camping option vs more than 5-10% of the cast.

Just so people don't misconstrue what I'm saying, I do think Bayonetta is amazing. Absolutely ridiculous character, definitely top 10-15. But seeing you people suddenly forget alllllllllllll of the flaws a character has the minute they have success is really, really, really tiring.
You do it with Mewtwo. You did it with Cloud. You do it with Mario. You're probably about to do it with ZSS.
Just think for once. Just because the character does well doesn't mean they don't suddenly stop having trouble with certain things.
Actually watch the games and ask yourself "what was the opponent NOT doing to exploit X character's flaws?"
If you can answer and say they exhausted all their options, you can then whine about how "broken" said character is. Until then, just stop.
and sorry for having two posts. tried to edit it in, but SB didn't agree with me.

 

[Fenny]

Prepatch luigi struggled with MUs and had weaknesses too. (A lot of the ones you listed) We're not overlooking them, we're stating they are overly compensated. (Most specifically the 'lag of it all' mechanic)

Prepatch Luigi could get Bayo's damage output from her more complex combos off of a grab, which were easy to get thanks to him having a then-amazing projectile. Bayo is not on that level of safe, not even close.

Her ledge coverage seems fine and her ability to frame trap for edgeguards offstage seems to extend to pretty much every character. Are you denying she's the best edgeguarder in the game? While edgeguards are somewhat weak in this game, that alone should say a lot about her kill potential.

She's an amazing edgeguarder, yes, but people seem to forget that recoveries in this game for the most part are better than they've ever been and so they have more options to deal with Bayos who jump off before returning to safety. People love to panic when Bayo runs offstage against them when it in itself is a commitment that she'll pay for if she makes the wrong choices. Someone who understands their character and recovers smart (throwing out a hitbox against her before using your DJ since we rarely Witch Time far enough offstage, recovering both low and high, hell even dodging before DJing) will have a far better chance surviving against her, and sometimes they'll end up gimping her in her attempt to kill them off early. Obviously some struggle more than others but that's down to the weaknesses of that character. She's hardly invincible offstage.

And how does void make the MU look unwinnable? It was game 3 last hit with PF at smashcon. Hell if pf just baited the airdodge on the last dtilt he would've won. What showing are you referring to?

You mean that set where VoiD SD'd on his first stock game 1?

 

[DunnoBro]

The prepatch Luigi comparisons are tiring. Although the characters have similarities, the game's powerlevel is nothing like it was back then and Bayonetta's gameplan is nowhere near as fail-safe as his was.

I don't see how my comparison is faulty still. He had weaknesses, he struggled in MUs, these aspects alone don't actual say anything about the integrity of the character.

I'm not really oversimplifying her neutral at all. I barely even spoke on it. Her killing options in general are very telegraphed and easy to avoid and it's not very difficult to survive onstage to max rage percents against her. I'd even say that if you're not constantly getting WT'd, you survive longer against Bayo than you do Sheik.
But I will say a few interactions like dtilt uair, dair oos, and the startup on bair+its angle and range are downright ridiculous.

No, of course I'm not denying she's the best edgeguarder in the game. Where is that coming from.
My post was more to say "if you're not getting gimped, you're surviving for a good while."

I see. My apologies for misunderstanding then, however you should understand that being a threat offstage encourages all characters to make decisions which anchor them to the stage. which while immediately less safe than giving up stage control is still an optimal and necessary decision at times, which lends to getting killed by these so-called "telegraphed" kills of hers. That's why I brought up her edgeguarding.

• Using aerials with the exact same tempo over and over again and handing the Bayo free WTs. A great thing about Smash in general is how many ways you can alter your timings. Fastfall, no fastfall, rising with fastfall, rising with no fastfall, tomahawks, etc. Really no reason people's aerials should be getting WT'd as much as they are.
• Using the same dash in approaches every time and giving the Bayo free WTs
• Going for fraudulent overextensions that aren't guaranteed and expecting to not die for it. If someone will usually airdodge out, treat WT as an airdodge and do the 50/50s or strings that way.
• Tapping her shield incorrectly. You deserve the Witch Twist/WT OoS punish for it, honestly. This hasn't changed at all.
• Whiffing grabs then getting bair'd/dtilted/utilted. This one is more understandable and can only really be solved by....not....missing?

Mistakes get people killed, yeh. But you're acting like the bayo can never legitimately and safely cover an option with preemptive witch times, twist, dABK, or dtilts and still earn all this insane reward herself. As if these "wrong" choices will always be the wrong choices and that somehow bayo's reward when they are in fact wrong is on the same level as theirs when right.

Diddy has a similarly consistent punish game, but gets far less out of it and is demanded to play FAR safer due to his recovery leaving him only so many mix-ups and gimp attempts before he's out a stock.

Now, this isn't to say characters can't have insane reward. But it's still all rather safe, isn't it? So the issue I foresee is it isn't really consistent to avoid it all without either superceding her playstyle (janking her out) or just playing absolutely perfect.

 

[Deleted member]

Use a set that isn't one of Bayo's most lopsided matchups to try and prove your point.
Literally one of the only matchups that makes her seem flawless LOL. You don't see DDD mains posting videos of them playing vs MM and calling Lemons broken.

Anyway, Bats Within still takes damage meaning she isn't entirely safe like other characters are. And the FAF on them is noticeably awful.

Side B doesn't fix her horrid ground mobility. You can literally just shield it and punish. See the bullets come out? Cool, kick's coming. Punish after. Don't see it? Cool, punish immediately. I don't see how one of the easiest moves to react to that moves at a fairly slow speed would be a fix to her garbage ground mobility.


Her jab is, what, f8? f9? Isn't that Shulk and Palutena tier? You know, the jabs we constantly say are absolute trash data wise? Not only that, but it's easily punishable on whiff unlike Palutena's.
If there was anything I would've mentioned for your side to help the argument it'd be Utilt. That's a stupid grounded move she has. But since it's a tilt it doesn't help with her options out of dash at all. She has to be practically hugging people to actually do any damage out of it. Unless you consider neutral B a legitimate camping option vs more than 5-10% of the cast.

Just so people don't misconstrue what I'm saying, I do think Bayonetta is amazing. Absolutely ridiculous character, definitely top 10-15. But seeing you people suddenly forget alllllllllllll of the flaws a character has the minute they have success is really, really, really tiring.
You do it with Mewtwo. You did it with Cloud. You do it with Mario. You're probably about to do it with ZSS.
Just think for once. Just because the character does well doesn't mean they don't suddenly stop having trouble with certain things.
Actually watch the games and ask yourself "what was the opponent NOT doing to exploit X character's flaws?"
If you can answer and say they exhausted all their options, you can then whine about how "broken" said character is. Until then, just stop.

Shulk's jab is frame 5, fyi. Considering it does 12% damage it's not trash by any stretch of imagination. It has trouble connecting on floaties occassionally and even then you can just delay the hits to lessen the chance of it happening.

I do agree with the rest of your post though, Bayonetta is a great chaarcter but I do feel like she's being a tad overestimated in this thread.

 

[Rizen]

Use a set that isn't one of Bayo's most lopsided matchups to try and prove your point.

Would you prefer vs Nairo's ZSS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a55X5fzD2rQ&index=43&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3hi5z_YiPlnSNDab4vMJIK
or ZeRo's Diddy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq6mIyMIbo8&index=42&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3hi5z_YiPlnSNDab4vMJIK

 

[FeelMeUp]

Shulk's jab is frame 5, fyi. Considering it does 12% damage it's not trash by any stretch of imagination. It has trouble connecting on floaties occassionally and even then you can just delay the hits to lessen the chance of it happening.

I do agree with the rest of your post though, Bayonetta is a great chaarcter but I do feel like she's being a tad overestimated in this thread.

Shulk's was f5? I gotta look at all the character data then, because now I can't remember who the f8 jabs were.
maybe one of the heavies like ganon/bowser.
do appreciate the information, though.
Do the arts drastically change the kill potential/damage of it? How much does it do with Buster?

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk's was f5? I gotta look at all the character data then, because now I can't remember who the f8 jabs were.
maybe one of the heavies like ganon/bowser.
do appreciate the information, though.
Do the arts drastically change the kill potential/damage of it? How much does it do with Buster?

18%. The reduced knockback of the hits makes it connect more consistently as well. Pretty silly to get that much damage off a frame 5 move.

Also, no problem. Palu has a frame 8 jab and Ganon had one until it got a frame shaved off startup.

 

[DunnoBro]

Prepatch Luigi could get Bayo's damage output from her more complex combos off of a grab, which were easy to get thanks to him having a then-amazing projectile. Bayo is not on that level of safe, not even close.

As I said, I'm not comparing every aspect of the characters. Prepatch luigi was irrefutably much worse and more linear than bayo is. Pure cancer, really.

I'm only loosely comparing the criteria of which past nerf victims fit. Prepatch luigi STILL had weaknesses, bad matchups, and flaws. This didn't excuse his alleged issues and this argumentative tactic should have no bearing on the discussion.

She's an amazing edgeguarder, yes, but people seem to forget that recoveries in this game for the most part are better than they've ever been and so they have more options to deal with Bayos who jump off before returning to safety. People love to panic when Bayo runs offstage against them when it in itself is a commitment that she'll pay for if she makes the wrong choices. Someone who understands their character and recovers smart (throwing out a hitbox against her before using your DJ since we rarely Witch Time far enough offstage, recovering both low and high, hell even dodging before DJing) will have a far better chance surviving against her, and sometimes they'll end up gimping her in her attempt to kill them off early. Obviously some struggle more than others but that's down to the weaknesses of that character. She's hardly invincible offstage.

I only mentioned it because it lends to her killing potential. While you may think I'm overestimating it, calling the best edgeguarder in the game still bad at killing, even while ignoring her onstage and other sources of stocks, seems like a vast underestimation to me.

You mean that set where VoiD SD'd on his first stock game 1?

One SD over the course of 8 games? I hope you're not trying to use that as some justification for how this is hardly the example of "unwinnable"?

Seriously, I'm more of a frame data and youtube guy. I'm bad with streams so if there's another example of void v bayo I'm all about it.

 

[Fenny]

Would you prefer vs Nairo's ZSS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a55X5fzD2rQ&index=43&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3hi5z_YiPlnSNDab4vMJIK

or ZeRo's Diddy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq6mIyMIbo8&index=42&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3hi5z_YiPlnSNDab4vMJIK

ZSS-Bayo is not only a volatile matchup in general, but Nairo's super aggro playstyle was bound to clash with Salem's incredibly patient one.

Salem v. ZeRo was a game 5 situation. Twice. And that was only because Salem was playing the MU to perfection. You could see that there was no room for error on either side.

So I don't see where you're getting at.

 

[FeelMeUp]

or ZeRo's Diddy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq6mIyMIbo8&index=42&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3hi5z_YiPlnSNDab4vMJIK

The ideal gameplan for Diddy vs Bayo is banana camping in shield and using his silly low commitment rolls/amazing PP shield to reposition yourself. Never running unless you're certain you will get something from it as well, because that's the main cause of getting caught by Side B. ZeRo, however, spent a large portion of the game using his new playstyle instead of his old one.

This new playstyle is what you see vs Ally where he relies a lot on crossup bairs, empty hopping with his back towards you, and less fair than before. It's not good vs Bayo at all because it doesn't exploit the fact that she has a HORRIBLE risk reward ratio with approaching banana in hand shielding Diddy. ZeRo also constantly....yknow, approached with the lead. Which is really dumb in this matchup because you can popgun camp on platforms/on the ground and mix that up with JCIT down to grab or popgun cancel to item toss to whatever followup you want.

Hell, a lot of the time he would opt to not go for banana at all. Sure, Bayo can destroy it on reaction if in range but this itself can be unsafe because Diddy has the option to instantly punish Bayo for using Bullet Climax in attempt to destroy the banana. Dude would literally sit in shield with no banana in hand CONSTANTLY, which made Salem have 0 fear of dash in approaches on Diddy.

and to top it all off, he didn't ledge trap her properly at all.
To be frank, Bayo can't really be ledge trapped very well by any character in the game. Her off the ledge game is probably the best on the roster. But Diddy has the option to place the banana on neutral getup and popgun camp. If you do the standard ledge trap where you attempt to react to all options with grab, bair and dashback grab Bayo can just dABK/WT out of the way for free to a distance where you can't get her and safely land with bair.
I'd say ZeRo wasn't playing the matchup correctly. He played well in his own way, but definitely didn't play the MU correctly.
His resets to neutral were mediocre. His advantage(aside from on the ledge) was amazing. His SDI was amazing.
But his neutral itself was really bad.
and that's not how you play against Bayo.

Is that what you wanted to hear?

Edit:

Seriously, I'm more of a frame data and youtube guy. I'm bad with streams so if there's another example of void v bayo I'm all about it.

I won't lie, the reason for me saying that is watching VoiD play with Pink on stream. Have no idea which VOD it was so I couldn't really give you a link.

 

[DunnoBro]

ZSS-Bayo is not only a volatile matchup in general, but Nairo's super aggro playstyle was bound to clash with Salem's incredibly patient one.

Salem v. ZeRo was a game 5 situation. Twice. And that was only because Salem was playing the MU to perfection. You could see that there was no room for error on either side.

So I don't see where you're getting at.

I think they're just meant to be examples of her kill potential, not of general brokenness or anything. As that seemed to be the point being contested, not the bulk of the debate itself.

I won't lie, the reason for me saying that is watching VoiD play with Pink on stream. Have no idea which VOD it was so I couldn't really give you a link.

Ahh, well I do know they play often so I don't doubt you. Though I'm not sure friendlies are the best source of MU discourse either.

 

[Myollnir]

Have you looked at the frame data?

Perhaps it didn't make much sense to you.

But heel1 has roughly 40 frames of recovery. Easily punishable, right?

However, heel2 only has 19. Meaning heel2 is actually much safer, and inherently a mix-up. 19 frames is also the average reaction time for smash 4 (13 frames + 6 input lag) Couple that in with the startup of the intended punish move, shield drop/landing frames (assuming they crossed you up) it isn't really that punishable a move.

No, that's not how it works. You start reacting when you see the move (heel1), not when it ends. By the time she uses heel2, you should to be prepared to punish it, meaning that you do have ~19 frames to punish. Also, I'm no Bayo expert but I think spotdodging heel2 might be the best option to get the hardest punish.

By the way, I only replied to what I thought to be wrong, but I actually quite like reading your posts, they're usually pretty interesting.

 

[Fenny]

As I said, I'm not comparing every aspect of the characters. Prepatch luigi was irrefutably much worse and more linear than bayo is. Pure cancer, really.

I'm only loosely comparing the criteria of which past nerf victims fit. Prepatch luigi STILL had weaknesses, bad matchups, and flaws. This didn't excuse his alleged issues and this argumentative tactic should have no bearing on the discussion.

But that's the thing. Bayo's issues aren't polarizing enough to be branded broken in the same vein for Luigi to even be brought up. Like prepatch Bayo, Luigi's strengths were so silly that his flaws rarely came into play unless you hard punished the smallest of openings. Bayo succumbs to pressure that she can't Witch Time out of. She just doesn't have the frame data for it.

I only mentioned it because it lends to her killing potential. While you may think I'm overestimating it, calling the best edgeguarder in the game still bad at killing, even while ignoring her onstage and other sources of stocks, seems like a vast underestimation to me.

Because killing offstage isn't always what's preferred in a game where the neutral dominates and stage control is crucial. Of course Bayo is an offstage monster, but potentially relinquishing stage control isn't something you want with her frailty. It's not always worth it, especially against certain characters.

One SD over the course of 8 games? I hope you're not trying to use that as some justification for how this is hardly the example of "unwinnable"?

8 games? Is this smashcon you're on about?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The only characters who significantly outreward Bayonetta or can power through her disgusting disadvantage state also lose terribly to her in neutral (for instance Ryu gets manhandled in neutral by Bayo).

Except for Fox. He doesn't lose to Bayonetta in neutral and can also "power through" her disadvantaged state as much as he does against anybody else's. He still loses the matchup though, if only slightly.

 

[DunnoBro]

But that's the thing. Bayo's issues aren't polarizing enough to be branded broken in the same vein for Luigi to even be brought up. Like prepatch Bayo, Luigi's strengths were so silly that his flaws rarely came into play unless you hard punished the smallest of openings. Bayo succumbs to pressure that she can't Witch Time out of. She just doesn't have the frame data for it.

As I said, I'm not putting Bayo in the same vein as prepatch luigi or even calling her "broken"

I just think she's overtuned and the ARGUMENTS you're using to defend her also apply to prepatch luigi. So having weaknesses and bad mus alone just isn't a valid defense for the character. We need to determine of this weaknesses are in fact in line with her reward and strengths in relation to the other characters.

Because killing offstage isn't always what's preferred in a game where the neutral dominates and stage control is crucial. Of course Bayo is an offstage monster, but relinquishing stage control isn't something you want with her frailty. It's not always worth it, especially against certain characters.

As Feelmeup has stated though, her return from the ledge is also likely the best in the game so the risk isn't as high as all that. If she had to take absolutely no risk then the issue would be much more obvious, right?

Even her return can get the opponent killed or table turned very easily.

8 games? Is this smashcon you're on about?

Ah, I brought up two examples so I got confused which your quote referred to. Still, game 3 had no SDs and the other example had none at all from what I saw.

With the examples of sheik v bayo present at high level competitive play coupled with Salem's expressed belief bayo loses no matchups (not taking his word as law just under consideration) I just don't really think there's evidence to state bayo v sheik is all that bad at this current point in the meta.

No, that's not how it works. You start reacting when you see the move (heel1), not when it ends. By the time she uses heel2, you should to be prepared to punish it, meaning that you do have ~19 frames to punish. Also, I'm no Bayo expert but I think spotdodging heel2 might be the best option to get the hardest punish.

By the way, I only replied to what I thought to be wrong, but I actually quite like reading your posts, they're usually pretty interesting.

Hmm, I did explain things a bit wrong. But the mix-up starts after heel1. Will they finish? Can you grab? Do you need to shield? This is on the very brink, so spacing, usage, and the opponents potential options themselves decide the punish. Generally, the punishes aren't too hard. Though in cases like diddy, tink, or good dash attackers/grabbers they are consistent. But others like villager and mario don't have the best or very consistent on-reaction punishes for it.

There's a lot of frame 17-20 variations that demand this kind of reaction I'm noticing. (Usually mobile kill confirm finishes like mario fair or bouncing fish)

While people are talking about Mr. E, for what its worth I met him at a tourney last week and he agreed with me that Roy is super good and just nobody is doing anything with the character.

Really I just wanted an excuse to say I met Mr. E.

He thinks duck hunt is good too so let's hope he doesn't make it into the BR lol

 

[HoSmash4]

I dunno how Bayo struggles at killing when her dtilt uair/turnaround bair works forever, on top of kill throw/raw bair/uair and nair 1 for safe kills.

Now what she also has on top of these safe moves are...

dair mixup that kills super early
Witch time into whatever, more and more situations will be optimised.
Roofio kills which still exist, the design of the moves are still the same
Witch twist 1 got a small buff in the fact it links into side b at pretty much every % (pre patch stopped at like 110-140%)
Dabk to abk to uair still is a thing
A stock cap fthrow (stock cap throws are underrated in general in my opinion.
Fair 1,2 strings which are LEGIT especially on Fox because he would never want to airdodge that low offstage (if he does then Bayo can just kill him from there)

Bayo on top of having extremely good bnb's also has a lot of silly early kill jank which Sheik/Diddy kinda lacks which is also a thing people don't bring up when it comes to Sheik/Diddy weakness (they can kill consistently at a very high %, but not very early aside from gimps

 

[Ghostbone]

Except for Fox. He doesn't lose to Bayonetta in neutral and can also "power through" her disadvantaged state as much as he does against anybody else's. He still loses the matchup though, if only slightly.

I don't think there's any evidence that bayo wins this matchup (or that fox wins it for that matter)
I don't know of a single instance of two top level players of these characters playing each other lol.

Theoretically it's fox's advantage imo due to his grounded speed, ridiculously better boxing options, and frametraps, as well as with correct DI being able to escape most low % bayo stuff. But I know Pink Fresh and Saj would put it even/in bayo's favour, I'm just not sure what their reasoning is behind that.

Hmm, I did explain things a bit wrong. But the mix-up starts after heel1. Will they finish? Can you grab? Do you need to shield? This is on the very brink, so spacing, usage, and the opponents potential options themselves decide the punish.

There's no mixup to heel slide, you know whether she's going to do the second kick or not based upon whether she's shooting bullets during the slide. When she hits your shield with the slide, you should already know whether she's going into the second phase or not.

Furthermore, depending on spacing, lots of characters can just grab before the second kick even comes out, or punish with some other OoS option, irrespective of whether bayo chooses to end side-b early or not.

 

[DunnoBro]

Furthermore, depending on spacing, lots of characters can just grab before the second kick even comes out, or punish with some other OoS option, irrespective of whether bayo chooses to end side-b early or not.

I'm talking about when it's spaced to crossup shield. Dropping shield and dash grabbing/attacking heel1 is very possible, but if they heel2 you'll need to shield to get a punish. And shielding unnecessarily can result in forfeiting pressure to Bayo. (Witch twist being the most optimal mix-up I've seen)